Mazda Rotary Club

As a few people will know I am going to be running a 13B bridge ported turbo engine in my car, with fuel injection.

Now as I\'m Getting closer to where I need to sort the wiring for the stand alone I want to know what to do with my ignition. I have already bought an hks twin power so I can basically take the ignition set up from an FD and run it with my engine.

I am also wanting to run W/I with my setup so need something that can handle this.

The easy answer is to just use the twin power, but I have been told about using LS coils as you don\'t need to have an ignighter and provide a good spark for the WI.

I know I should use the search function but if I don\'t know where to start I don\'t know what I\'m looking for.

FD coils are really wimpy compared to FC coils lol the twin power box doesn\'t really do much with the spark plug, check out the size of MSD ignition amps vs the twin power

I don\'t want to have to spend a fortune on it. I have seen Rices ignition system, that would cost me well over a grand to build that.

The hks can work well up to 1.5 bar with WI, not that I want to go that far just yet. I will rewire what is necessary for the ignition so there isn\'t a weak link.

rices igntion system wont cost you a grand mate, i priced up everything in the uk delivered for £450, im going down that route as that way ill never have to worry about it again.

what your paying for with rice is a pure plug and play system with everything wired and done.

Id rather save the money and have a go at doing it myself(and id make a rubbish sparky)


if you already have a twinpower i would use that with fc coils, that will do you for 500cc of w/i which should be plenty for a while

I know this but what I\'m wanting to do is build it for the future. As the saying goes too much power still isn\'t enough. Lol.

Once I can handle the car with my current turbo I will be looking to go bigger and run more WI. So I don\'t want to have to fanny around changing it again. Try and do it right once.

Just use 2 x twin powers, 1 for leading n 1 for trailing. Easy

Keith

then go down the dynatec route then, fit and forget!

Quote from: Grant Monkhouse;771711As a few people will know I am going to be running a 13B bridge ported turbo engine in my car, with fuel injection.

Now as I\'m Getting closer to where I need to sort the wiring for the stand alone I want to know what to do with my ignition. I have already bought an hks twin power so I can basically take the ignition set up from an FD and run it with my engine.

I am also wanting to run W/I with my setup so need something that can handle this.

The easy answer is to just use the twin power, but I have been told about using LS coils as you don\'t need to have an ignighter and provide a good spark for the WI.

I know I should use the search function but if I don\'t know where to start I don\'t know what I\'m looking for.

I am using ls3 truck coils with the built in igniter. The problem you will find is they need large amounts of time to charge (dwell time) This is why I am running them as non wasted spark as your effectively halving the amount of time they get to charge in wasted spark format.

To do this you either have to use the existing trailing wires to control them individually (only one set of plugs work) or use a ecu which has 4 ignition outputs and dual ignition maps.

They put our a fair amount of power especially is set up correctly. However I would recommend finding something plug and play

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Mazda-RX7-FD3S-MSD-Ignition-Coil-Accel-Ignition-Amp-/130536849875?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item1e649a41d3#ht_500wt_1156

Martin has this setup from a drag car and is well priced, may require a small amount of modification for an FC but will cope with your WI

Any more questions drop me an email dale[dot]pluthero[at]gmail[dot]com

Quote from: turbotoaster;771852then go down the dynatec route then, fit and forget!

Not so fast, I know of 2 units that have crapped themselves within minutes of being fitted and dyno\'d. They just seemed to work for a few pulls then just show error lights.

If you use new wiring for the FD Ignition system , new leading and trailing coils you will be good for your power goals. FC coils are not any better, LS coils dont do wasted spark I believe so you would need an ECU which is not the Apexi to use them correctly or wire up the trailing in some way.
I did 450rwhp on a bone stock FD ignition
468rwhp with WI , stock FD with Twin power.

What are you power goals Grant?

In regards using Two Twin powers ????? WHY, the Twin power has output for the Leading and Trailing coils, so no need for two twin powers lol

If your power goals are over 550rwhp and keeping the Apexi ECU go with an MSD setup like what Ross did with his drag car. Or if going aftermarket ECU like a Motec or Microtech they offer themselves different ignition solutions

now this is what i was wanting, not knocking anyone elses suggestion but this ^^^^ is what i wanted to get from this.
 
i will be wiring the ignition so it brand new, with new cable etc as this will also help me to understand what the ignition is actually doing (i am a commercial electrician so i know my way around a pair of snips ans crimpers)
 
Blitz i am aiming for 450HP with the apexi ECU, going for another ecu at the moment just isnt cost effective as they are really expensive!! I have all the components for the apexi, data loggit, wide band etc.
 
once i have the car running quick, maybe a 10 second pass, and i hit a point i cant beat that time i will be going for more power, now seen as a bigger turbo is cheaper than a 3 rotor build (even though i have just been offered a 3 rotor block at a very good price) that is the way i will be going for more power, and i want to make sure the ignition will work when i reach that point. as with a bigger turbo i would surely increase my amount of water injected to gain greater benefits from a biger turbo?
 
i may sound like im stupid with this ignition stuff, and i will admit i am. everyone must start somewhere.

Grant you are not alone in this dilema, I am also sailing in the same boat lollll

Motec do their own ignition set ups, but I would like to hear about those set ups before I embark on them. I know someone in Australia, who is running a 3 rotor in an FD. His 20b has three individual turbos along with EGT\'s on the exhaust ports. He uses that car as a daily driver and he is using MSD set up on Motec...which is beyond me loll

This topic is so perplex and cumbersome that it is unlikely that you would get collective vote on one set up.

Mir

Quote from: Mir;771875Grant you are not alone in this dilema, I am also sailing in the same boat lollll
 
Motec do their own ignition set ups, but I would like to hear about those set ups before I embark on them. I know someone in Australia, who is running a 3 rotor in an FD. His 20b has three individual turbos along with EGT\'s on the exhaust ports. He uses that car as a daily driver and he is using MSD set up on Motec...which is beyond me loll
 
This topic is so perplex and cumbersome that it is unlikely that you would get collective vote on one set up.
 
Mir

very true,i think what i need to say really is that if a bullet proof ignition system is going to cost in the 1,000s then i will stick with the twin power but make it as good as possible with new wiring etc

Quote from: Grant Monkhouse;771878very true,i think what i need to say really is that if a bullet proof ignition system is going to cost in the 1,000s then i will stick with the twin power but make it as good as possible with new wiring etc

Just so your aware the ls3 truck coils are £45 each :D

So here are some silly question.

How many coils are there? One per rotor I assume.

How many igniters are there? Someone mentioned these early but i don\'t know what they are, just googled it and now I know what they look like.

What do the igniters do exactly?

What do the coils do?

These are daft questions I know but let someone teach and let me learn!!

Quote from: rx7boy;771890Just so your aware the ls3 truck coils are £45 each :D

I noticed, found some earlier on quick eBay search.:Thumbsup!:Thumbsup!

I was thinking of building my own for the FC.
 
The stock coils are pretty good - they are ideal for IGBT driven circuits, and can easily pack quite a bit more punch when driven with these devices.  Driving them via a high speed micro will also permit the possibility of multispark at low rpm\'s and a higher pulse single spark at high rpms.
 
I still haven\'t figured out exactly what the twinspark does - the way it\'s wired in, it must be wave shaping the signal to improve charge time / energy stored, and the shutoff spike is obviously narrowed producing a higher voltage.
 
As I say with modern semiconductors it should be possible to make a good igniter.

I just searched and found this,

http://www.smbaker.com/sand-rail/mazda-rotary-conversion/msd-6a-direct-fire-ignition-for-mazda-rx-7-rotary-engine

MSD setup, really good description on how to modify everything.

However the MSD unit alone is £350.

@ blitz, a friend runs 2x twin power units with great effect. Very good times.
Just throwing it there for grant, if he wants the info I will point him to the person who will tell him.

Keith.

For 450 rear wheel a good stock FD system with a Twin power with good wiring, maybe direct feed to the ignitor via relay will make sure you good the full voltage is all you need

No sense complicating something by using different coils etc etc for this power level, the stock FD system only seems to go marginal at around 500rwhp

Quote from: TRIND-FD;771910@ blitz, a friend runs 2x twin power units with great effect. Very good times.
Just throwing it there for grant, if he wants the info I will point him to the person who will tell him.

Keith.

Cheers, I want all the info I can get so i can build the best system possible that will work well for what I want now and for when I want more later.

Doesn\'t the increased boost and WI tend to \'quench\' the spark?

Quote from: TRIND-FD;771910@ blitz, a friend runs 2x twin power units with great effect. Very good times.
Just throwing it there for grant, if he wants the info I will point him to the person who will tell him.

Keith.

again why?? makes no sense,there is no benefit from wiring two in, from knowing what the twin power does, what power is he at, what times does he run?

The stock FD system runs one Leading coil which does both rotors, and two trailing, one ignitor.
If you ran an ECU which allows you to run 4 coils, you would not use the specific Rotary Twin spark, which has three outputs, one for the leading coil and two for the trailing. You would use the DLI version which has up to 6  outputs. So Trini your friend could have saved some money and just wired in the DLI version instead of buying two rotary Twin sparks.

Anyway what the f**k do I know, I only map the things, apparently internet tuners know more, so I bow to everyones knowledge on this thread lol :cheers :)

Quote from: BlitzBoy;771912For 450 rear wheel a good stock FD system with a Twin power with good wiring, maybe direct feed to the ignitor via relay will make sure you good the full voltage is all you need

No sense complicating something by using different coils etc etc for this power level, the stock FD system only seems to go marginal at around 500rwhp

Cheers blitz. Will possibly stick with what your suggesting for now and make the hks as good as it can be to a point.

I find it strange there isn\'t a sticky section on ignition defile as I would have thought this as a subject was vitally important to maintaining good health on a high powered rotary?

Like I said, it\'s not me. So I can\'t tell you. I don\'t pretend to know everything.
The chap is well know by you and others, so grant can speak with him. If he is running like that there must be a reason. Perhaps they are in parallel ,
God knows. .

Keith

Quote from: Prof;771923Doesn\'t the increased boost and WI tend to \'quench\' the spark?

That\'s what I would say. You actually need a higher voltage to ignite the mixture, as the water boost and fuel would overwhelm a weak spark

Quote from: Prof;771923Doesn\'t the increased boost and WI tend to \'quench\' the spark?

yes correct if you go above a certain power I see this, but really an upgraded ignition system even with WI only seems to be needed over a certain power, and in my view that tends to happen around 500rwhp

Quote from: TRIND-FD;771927Like I said, it\'s not me. So I can\'t tell you. I don\'t pretend to know everything.
The chap is well know by you and others, so grant can speak with him. If he is running like that there must be a reason. Perhaps they are in parallel ,
God knows. .

Keith

I was just trying to figure how they would be wired together and in parallel would be the obvious way, in essence you would be compounding the effect of the twinpower providing that feeding voltage to thesystem doesn\'t drop, or the amps of the circuit increasing causing the resistance to increaseand voltage dropping and the likelihood of a fuse blowing.

Hmm thinking out loud.......

Now I run Motec as I plan to go over this 500rwhp I use four coils, two Bosch coils for the leading and two stock for the trailing. James Wilday runs the same ecu as me and run 4 bosch coils and that was good for over 550 rwhp as you can see in his 140 terminals from last year

Quote from: TRIND-FD;771927The chap is well know by you and others, so grant can speak with him.

Whats his name or is it a secret lol:evillaugh

Quote from: BlitzBoy;771931yes correct if you go above a certain power I see this, but really an upgraded ignition system even with WI only seems to be needed over a certain power, and in my view that tends to happen around 500rwhp

Does this mean you are nearly there blitz? As you mentioned that you were going to be turning your WI back on?

I would be well and truly Impressed if you have.

Never mind, you managed to post the answer before my question.

This question is off topic but is there anyone else apart from chris impey that is inning semi pp\'s?

Forgot that. Talk to Tim @ rxmotors grant, Sure he will tell u why and what he gained by running 2, might help might not.

Keith.

yeah putting the tank and pump back in next weekend then redoing the wiring for it so then remapping in the first week of August, it would have been sooner but need to get my triathlon training and the event out the way first as thats eating my time.

Quote from: TRIND-FD;771941Forgot that. Talk to Tim @ rxmotors grant, Sure he will tell u why and what he gained by running 2, might help might not.

Keith.

I may just do that. Thanks.

It would be so much better if rxmotors, Hayward rotary, dragon, WGT, and the old one came on here and helped with people\'s questions.

I know they are all busy but once a week for tech posts would be quality.

Quote from: BlitzBoy;771942yeah putting the tank and pump back in next weekend then redoing the wiring for it so then remapping in the first week of August, it would have been sooner but need to get my triathlon training and the event out the way first as thats eating my time.

Very cool. I take it you run aquamist kit?

Tim is mental he will try any heath robinson contraptions wiring two twin sparks LOL, i will ask him about it at the next drag round.
They are on Link ECU on the Impey\'s drag car now, and just purchased some expensive ignition system to ignite the high volume of meth they are running

Very good. Are they just going to run straight on methanol or does the class rules not allow it?

I\'m sure either that supra or skyline runs just on methanol though?

Quote from: Grant Monkhouse;771944It would be so much better if rxmotors, Hayward rotary, dragon, WGT, and the old one came on here and helped with people\'s questions.

I know they are all busy but once a week for tech posts would be quality.

That wont happen, Rxmotors (does not post on here for his own personal reasons), Hayward (he posts but I have yet to see proof of him making a high powered rotary that has broken into 10s or recorded high terminals on the strip, so he needs to prove himself in my eyes in regards to outright power IMO),
Dragon (suspended), oldone (banned) , Pip (never ever seen him post on a forum, too busy I imagine)

Quote from: Grant Monkhouse;771948Very good. Are they just going to run straight on methanol or does the class rules not allow it?

I\'m sure either that supra or skyline runs just on methanol though?

The Pro class you can run any fuel, they all run straight meth now.

Quote from: BlitzBoy;771949That wont happen, Rxmotors (does not post on here for his own personal reasons), Hayward (he posts but I have yet to see proof of him making a high powered rotary that has broken into 10s or recorded high terminals on the strip, so he needs to prove himself in my eyes in regards to outright power IMO),
Dragon (suspended), Pip (never ever seen him post on a forum, too busy I imagine)

You forgot Uncle Era, Mark. Ohhh, yes. Banned, then :rollin

I dunno why people try to find esoteric (and fearsomely expensive) solutions to FD ignition when as you\'ve already said, good stock equipment and a twin power are plenty for 99% of applications. I found this out kinda the hard way. What did my car lose when we uplugged the twin power? Something like sixty horsepower, wasn\'t it? Mind you, I think it was down to one rotor by then :rollin

EDIT, sorry, just saw the "old one" lurking in there amidst you review of Mr Haywards\' achievements :o Still, we don\'t need any of them, Rice Racing KNOWS EVERYTHING ABOUT EVERYTHING and if he doesn\'t he\'ll SHOUT until we\'re all convinced he does :D

60 ho down and on one rotor?!

Wow nik, that\'s like 120hp for 2 rotors, your engine must be beast. Lol.

Quote from: BlitzBoy;771949That wont happen, Rxmotors (does not post on here for his own personal reasons), Hayward (he posts but I have yet to see proof of him making a high powered rotary that has broken into 10s or recorded high terminals on the strip, so he needs to prove himself in my eyes in regards to outright power IMO),
Dragon (suspended), oldone (banned) , Pip (never ever seen him post on a forum, too busy I imagine)

Didn\'t realise so many were banned.

10\'s is my quest for the rx4 but iv got a lot to learn, not just engine wise but car setup, driving and so on.

Not only will attaining a 10 for me be a hard challenge but seen as the car is 35 years old now it will also be a bigger challenge. And without tubbing it too.

Quote from: Grant Monkhouse;77195660 ho down and on one rotor?!

Wow nik, that\'s like 120hp for 2 rotors, your engine must be beast. Lol.

No, I mean the other rotor had already blown up by then. We unplugged the Twin Power out of morbid curiosity to see what would happen. It dropped the power output of the one rotor still going by 60, not to 60 :rollin.

It\'s the perversity of rotaries, they\'re so fragile in many ways, but I tell you, I was so unbelievably angry that night I drove home like 50 miles and never dropped below the speed limit once. On one rotor, bless her :InLove If I\'d been on a private road, I\'d say I\'d probably have got her up to three figures :o....

Nik was every speed limit on the way home 30mph? Lol

As when my engine blew it ran Like a bag off arse.

Lol. Funny boy. :p

Yeah, mine ran like a bag of arse, too. Gave me a lot of faith in the dyno operator when he told me it was only that the plugs were dirty and it should clear in a few miles :rolleyes:. I was annoyed enough that I honestly didn\'t care if what was left of the car blew up too, so I just smashed the grannny out of it all the way home. When they break a tip the faster you get them spinning, the better they seem to run. I guess it\'s all the centrifugal force spinning what\'s left out and sealing better. That may be borrocks of course, just my own guess.

Mind you, the last time it went it done all three tips on one rotor and trashed both plates and the housing and still ran up to around 60mph :cool. Hell of a job getting it to pull away though

Nik doesn\'t just kill his engines... He dececrates them!!

I have on my oldschool mazda a microtech lt10s with 4 bosch coils and it has made over 400rwhp through an auto with a gt35r on 20psi
 
I did have a dynatek cdi + coil set up on my half bridge 12a with a microtech that made just over 300 on 9psi and it was fine.
 
new ecu ive gone is haltech ps1000 with 4 AEM direct fire with inbuilt ignitor and the guys i bought them off have seen good fuel burning and running with over 25psi..
 
There is a few cars in australia running the dynatek cdi - 2 to note is the highest pump fuel car from Race Only with 703rwhp on pump fuel and water injection and another of their customers in the 500s using the leading only CDI.
 
All depends on your money and what you want out of it.. My advice is do it right the first time and you will save yourself with issues later on.

Quote from: 12at;772058I have on my oldschool mazda a microtech lt10s with 4 bosch coils and it has made over 400rwhp through an auto with a gt35r on 20psi
 
I did have a dynatek cdi + coil set up on my half bridge 12a with a microtech that made just over 300 on 9psi and it was fine.
 
new ecu ive gone is haltech ps1000 with 4 AEM direct fire with inbuilt ignitor and the guys i bought them off have seen good fuel burning and running with over 25psi..
 
There is a few cars in australia running the dynatek cdi - 2 to note is the highest pump fuel car from Race Only with 703rwhp on pump fuel and water injection and another of their customers in the 500s using the leading only CDI.

All depends on your money and what you want out of it.. My advice is do it right the first time and you will save yourself with issues later on.

Yes I agree about doing it right once, but as blitz has pointed out I\'m only shooting for 450hp at the moment and so residing the standard ignition using the twin power will be the best way for me to go at the moment. I can get any type of cable cheap for the rewire and in larger sizes to reduce the resistance of the cables etc.

Have you seen the MSD system I found through the link on the first page? That looks like a good way to go using MSD pack and blaster coils and doesn\'t seem too expensive. Just £350 for the MSD unit.

I could build a better system whilst the car is using the twin power and then swap them out and sell the the twin power on as they will become quite rare due to them nit being available through vendors over here any more but have to be imported from Japan due to their cutbacks.

how does a twin power actually work? it looks like it just piggy backs on the standard system so can\'t be a capacitive discharge? what does it do?
 
shop around for MSD stuff, i\'ve seen prices for the 6A (their base level CDI ignition) from £200-£350. blaster coils seem to be £50 each.
 
MSD\'s multi-spark thing sounds cool, but doesn\'t actually do anything in high load/revs, it only works up to a certain RPM.
 
from what i understand the big advantage to CDI over inductive ignition is the fact that they don\'t have a \'charge\' time and release a high energy short duration spark, compare to an inductive coil which discharges over a longer period of time and has to rebuild the charge in the coil.
 
i want an MSD system, not out of necessity but because i\'m a parts whore and i like shiny stickers :)

has anyone seen a either a wiring diagram or some pics of people who are running aftermarket igntion on a power fc, the only one i know of currently is dragons rat look rx7, been thinking of taking it there with my system and having him join the dots since hes done it in the past as my wiring skills arnt that great

Quote from: jackaleks;772788how does a twin power actually work? it looks like it just piggy backs on the standard system so can\'t be a capacitive discharge? what does it do?
 
shop around for MSD stuff, i\'ve seen prices for the 6A (their base level CDI ignition) from £200-£350. blaster coils seem to be £50 each.
 
MSD\'s multi-spark thing sounds cool, but doesn\'t actually do anything in high load/revs, it only works up to a certain RPM.
 
from what i understand the big advantage to CDI over inductive ignition is the fact that they don\'t have a \'charge\' time and release a high energy short duration spark, compare to an inductive coil which discharges over a longer period of time and has to rebuild the charge in the coil.
 
i want an MSD system, not out of necessity but because i\'m a parts whore and i like shiny stickers :)

 
Spot on with your descripton of capacitive verses inductive - except that there is a charge time - it\'s just much quicker to charge but requires a lot of additional circuitry to charge the caps up to several hundred volts.
 
The inductive system used on most cars,  uses the dwell time to charge the coil - charging time is based on coil resistance / battery voltage, but the final ignition voltage is a function of the switch off time of the charge signal, the charge duration equates to how long the spark will last - what the twinspark appears to do is \'shape\' this switch off waveform by cutting off the charge much quicker, and it also uses a capacitor to assist in \'boosting\' the voltage to the coil, delivering a little more energy
 
One way to get more out of the stock coils would be to boost the voltage used to charge the coil during ignition time - you could use one of those fuel pump boosters for that - but care would have to be taken to protect the booster from the large primary spike (400v).

Quote from: jackaleks;772788how does a twin power actually work? it looks like it just piggy backs on the standard system so can\'t be a capacitive discharge? what does it do?
 
shop around for MSD stuff, i\'ve seen prices for the 6A (their base level CDI ignition) from £200-£350. blaster coils seem to be £50 each.
 
MSD\'s multi-spark thing sounds cool, but doesn\'t actually do anything in high load/revs, it only works up to a certain RPM.
 
from what i understand the big advantage to CDI over inductive ignition is the fact that they don\'t have a \'charge\' time and release a high energy short duration spark, compare to an inductive coil which discharges over a longer period of time and has to rebuild the charge in the coil.
 
i want an MSD system, not out of necessity but because i\'m a parts whore and i like shiny stickers :)

check this out if you want an MSD system,
 
http://www.smbaker.com/sand-rail/mazda-rotary-conversion/msd-6a-direct-fire-ignition-for-mazda-rx-7-rotary-engine
 
found it whilst searching for ignition systems, seems right up your street and uses the 6A MSD system

Quote from: Nik da Greek;771953You forgot Uncle Era, Mark. Ohhh, yes. Banned, then :rollin

I dunno why people try to find esoteric (and fearsomely expensive) solutions to FD ignition when as you\'ve already said, good stock equipment and a twin power are plenty for 99% of applications. I found this out kinda the hard way. What did my car lose when we uplugged the twin power? Something like sixty horsepower, wasn\'t it? Mind you, I think it was down to one rotor by then :rollin

EDIT, sorry, just saw the "old one" lurking in there amidst you review of Mr Haywards\' achievements :o Still, we don\'t need any of them, Rice Racing KNOWS EVERYTHING ABOUT EVERYTHING and if he doesn\'t he\'ll SHOUT until we\'re all convinced he does :D

:rolleyes:

Quote from: Grant Monkhouse;771711As a few people will know I am going to be running a 13B bridge ported turbo engine in my car, with fuel injection.

Now as I\'m Getting closer to where I need to sort the wiring for the stand alone I want to know what to do with my ignition. I have already bought an hks twin power so I can basically take the ignition set up from an FD and run it with my engine.

I am also wanting to run W/I with my setup so need something that can handle this.

The easy answer is to just use the twin power, but I have been told about using LS coils as you don\'t need to have an ignighter and provide a good spark for the WI.

I know I should use the search function but if I don\'t know where to start I don\'t know what I\'m looking for.

Only a decent CDI system will run this properly.

I have proven the Crane Hi 6 and LX92 combo works, as copied by Dragon and many others.

I have also pioneered the Dynatek ARC-2 and 0.5 ohm coils, again copied by many.

^ You can do this cheaply and run leads, it will work and will be reliable, and deliver more spark (proven by me) than any other commercially available constant duty CDI unit. You can get others that sticker up to deliver more but when you test them they do not deliver the voltage nor the current at the plug, and to add insult to injury they cant be used for constant use :WaveBye

No inductive ign will run WI and proper fuel mixtures in a rotary combustion chamber, you will always need to doctor the tuning around the ign system limitation. So I strongly advise against ghetto non CDI systems.

Quote from: RICE RACING;772918No inductive ign will run WI and proper fuel mixtures in a rotary combustion chamber, you will always need to doctor the tuning around the ign system limitation. So I strongly advise against ghetto non CDI systems.

What exactly is the issue with inductive ?
 
Have you any information that shows why an inductive system can\'t be used - e.g. insufficient spark voltage / spark energy / duration of spark  - what is the limitation that you speak of?
 
Not knocking - just after information :cheers

Quote from: jackaleks;772788how does a twin power actually work? it looks like it just piggy backs on the standard system so can\'t be a capacitive discharge? what does it do?
 
shop around for MSD stuff, i\'ve seen prices for the 6A (their base level CDI ignition) from £200-£350. blaster coils seem to be £50 each.
 
MSD\'s multi-spark thing sounds cool, but doesn\'t actually do anything in high load/revs, it only works up to a certain RPM.
 
from what i understand the big advantage to CDI over inductive ignition is the fact that they don\'t have a \'charge\' time and release a high energy short duration spark, compare to an inductive coil which discharges over a longer period of time and has to rebuild the charge in the coil.
 
i want an MSD system, not out of necessity but because i\'m a parts whore and i like shiny stickers :)

ALL CDI\'s (good ones) have multi strike (up to 3000rpm), they do this cause CDI have a shorter burn time (I measure them at 420usec on average), the multiple discharge ensure more complete combustion at very low rpm and allows more stable idle and operation on a wider range of air fuel mixtures. You can turn off the multi strike and see the effect on Hc, CO, especially on a 4 gas.

After ~3000rpm the time to fire 420usec V\'s ~1.5 msec for inductive is not an issue and there is little difference in the end result of what you measure in the tail pipe all things being equal. It\'s the CDI vastly quicker build up time that gives vastly superior complete combustion and power and ability to fire anything in the chamber regardless of WI rate or excess fuel supply that DOMINATES it over inferior inductive. You will always make more power on CDI on a rotary than you will with Inductive (regadless of how high you boost the primary voltage or if you try to relicate the secondary voltage through a higher turns ratio in the coil. A CDI is a vastly more superior set up in high chamber pressure environment, will make more power, run all types of plugs (no need to change out warm up plugs! to race plugs!) and is trouble free (pick the right system!).

If you need to know anything more feel free to E-Mail me.

Quote from: Prof;772920What exactly is the issue with inductive ?
 
Have you any information that shows why an inductive system can\'t be used - e.g. insufficient spark voltage / spark energy / duration of spark  - what is the limitation that you speak of?
 
Not knocking - just after information :cheers

Inductive uses the ign coil as a inductor (magnetic induction) there is a large time needed to build up sufficient energy in the coil, it as a result lacks time to deliver full energy at higher duty cycles, it also is very hard on the ign coil (lots of heat) ....... too high a saturation time will destroy the coil. the second problem is the type of spark produced has a lower energy over an unecessary long duration (as mentioned in my last post) which is not conducive to proper combustion at high speed and high pressure.

A CDI system used the coil as a step up transformer. Feeding it with 450 volts, dumping its energy from a capacitor, it has a very sharp and high engery discharge (hugh intense spark of shorter duration) this provides proven higher horsepower in rotarys and turbo cars. It suffers from no coil time limitations, or over heating either. For a high HP racing application CDI is superior, you can get as much true measured ignition capacity as a magneto system! and be as reliable as well :)

Hope this helps.

I use RICESP as a daily driver with my CDI system I implemented, on race plugs, starting in -5 deg C weather first crank!, no need to change plug heat range, works with all AFR settings and WI settings. try to do thw same with a HKS twin power or any Inductive set up and you will be dreaming ;)

So Pete, having read above, If I were to ask you to give me a break down of the BEST ignition system (which off course must work with WI), what would be your answer?

What coils, CDIs, etc etc

Mir

Quote from: Mir;772927So Pete, having read above, If I were to ask you to give me a break down of the BEST ignition system (which off course must work with WI), what would be your answer?

What coils, CDIs, etc etc

Mir

Going off my own reality, and not off a magazine or internet page or others recommendations.

Dynatek ARC-2
Dynatek 0.5 ohm CDI coils

I have used personally.

AEM CDI
MSD (all models)
Autronic R500 (high output and std)
Motec and M&W (same .... made by same people)
Crane Hi6
ULTRA CDI (good Japan make)
ICE (inductive booster)
HKS DLI
Bosch CDI
Most other crap Inductive solutions customers have presented ! (most mentioned here!)

Quote from: RICE RACING;772933Going off my own reality, and not off a magazine or internet page or others recommendations.

Dynatek ARC-2
Dynatek 0.5 ohm CDI coils

I have used personally.

AEM CDI
MSD (all models)
Autronic R500 (high output and std)
Motec and M&W (same .... made by same people)
Crane Hi6
ULTRA CDI (good Japan make)
ICE (inductive booster)
HKS DLI
Bosch CDI
Most other crap Inductive solutions customers have presented ! (most mentioned here!)

Lets say if I were to go with your recommendation, i.e. Dynatek ARC-2
Dynatek 0.5 ohm CDI coils, what sort of application it can support "reliably"? I mean Horse Power wise?

The reason I am asking you these questions are because, I am in a process of building an ignition system for my 20b. According to my research, its a very cumbersome and perplex area. One minute I want to go with MSD and the other minute I want to install Motec system as I am running a MOTEC ecu at the moment!!

I am in a constant discussion with my mapper about this and I appreciate all his input on this matter, but I like to make decisions myself-hence I am doing research on everything as I don\'t want to leave any stone un-turned ....

So in nutshell, I would like to hear from you regarding this..

Mir

I cant use Dynatek ARC-2 as its for 4 cylinder lollll

Motec do a Rotary CDI module to connect to the MOtec ECU. On a 20B if want a Motec CDI you would go for CDI 8 system
Inductive is the most common ignition for most performance cars out there,inductive is stock on the rx7, you go CDI depending on the application and horsepower goals, high RPM and big boost go CDI. I have not reached the limits of my bosch inductive system yet so wont spend the money just yet. But will go CDI eventually as it is suited for high boost high rpm applications.

Simply explaination from the Motec site Inductive Vs CDI

Inductive Ignition versus CDI Systems
In an inductive ignition system, the coil is charged at battery voltage for a period of time—known as \'dwell time\'—prior to firing. The dwell or charge time is controlled by the ECU and should match the coil being used in order to not over or under charge. Undercharging reduces available spark energy, while overcharging can cause overheating of the coil and/or ignition module. Inductive ignition systems produce a spark, at a lower voltage with a longer duration compared to capacitor discharge ignition systems.

A CDI, Capacitor Discharge Ignition system is charging constantly and sends a large voltage charge (380–450 V) to the coil. The spark produced is extremely short in duration and at a much higher voltage than an inductive setup. Note that inductive coils should not be used with a CDI system; CDI compatible coils are required.

There are three main engine running characteristics to consider:

•High cylinder pressures
Generally, higher cylinder pressures require more voltage to initiate a spark. Boosted or nitrous injected engines create tremendous cylinder pressures that increase resistance to lighting the ignition spark. CDI systems are most often used on these engines.
•High RPM
The time available to charge the coil in an inductive system reduces at higher RPM. If the time available is shorter than the time required for a full charge, coil power and, as a result, performance will be reduced. A CDI system might be required.

•Lean mixtures
The shorter spark duration in CDI systems might not be sufficient to ignite enough of the mixture to propagate the flame front through the cylinder. Inductive ignition will perform better in this setup.
Most vehicles, including high performance road and race applications use an inductive ignition system. Generally, if your engine can run correctly on an inductive setup, it is better to leave it that way and install a CDI system only when your engine, due to high RPM or cylinder pressure, requires that you do so.

Quote from: Mir;772935Lets say if I were to go with your recommendation, i.e. Dynatek ARC-2
Dynatek 0.5 ohm CDI coils, what sort of application it can support "reliably"? I mean Horse Power wise?

The reason I am asking you these questions are because, I am in a process of building an ignition system for my 20b. According to my research, its a very cumbersome and perplex area. One minute I want to go with MSD and the other minute I want to install Motec system as I am running a MOTEC ecu at the moment!!

I am in a constant discussion with my mapper about this and I appreciate all his input on this matter, but I like to make decisions myself-hence I am doing research on everything as I don\'t want to leave any stone un-turned ....

So in nutshell, I would like to hear from you regarding this..

Mir

In short you need to consult the the person who will be finishing off the service for you (its the most harmonious way). If he has the experience to back up his way then he will show you that (i.e. here is a car lets go for a drive, or I will show you it here >) and you follow him in his recommendations 100%.

I have not found a HP limitation (tuning window is anything you could wish to run, not what the ign limits you too, or lack of power production *through ign shortfalls dictates*) on the Dynatek as described above. The best thing about it is its reliable, and wont fry itself while providing the high current and amps you will measure from it.
If your builder has alternatives then best form of decision making for "enthusiasts" is to see cars and set ups in reality that work on those systems :)

I gave up believing paper stats of ign systems manufactures put out, I got my own lab scope and tested the stuff myself to find out what works, the other stuff is measuring the power & performance and the other is long term testing (non fictional)..............

A great Ignition system will do the following:

* Run race heat range plugs (you never need to change plugs!)
* Run any AFR, WI ratio
* Run any chamber pressure (not be boost limited)
* Run normal plug gaps
* Run hard! and not burn out!
* Run always, not for a time limit!

^ If your ign system can\'t do that its not adequate. If you need to change out warm up plugs for race plugs its dodgey!

Quote from: Mir;772936I cant use Dynatek ARC-2 as its for 4 cylinder lollll

:rollin Indeed!!! :rollin

Coil on plug set up, CDI

(http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/3220/finishcoils5.jpg)

(http://img375.imageshack.us/img375/4082/cop3.jpg)

Here is pics of the RR COP CD system mounted up (CDI boxes next to battery on custom holder), wiring harness and COP\'s installed.

(http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/9753/img2502cdisystem.jpg)

(http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/5373/img2497cdisystem.jpg)

(http://img836.imageshack.us/img836/8711/img2500cdisystem.jpg)

(http://img600.imageshack.us/img600/7416/img2501cdisystem.jpg)

(http://img717.imageshack.us/img717/3152/img2524cdisystem.jpg)

(http://img832.imageshack.us/img832/4651/img2517cdisystem.jpg)

:) HIGH BOOST BRO! RRWEP110 Water Injected. :)

~30psi on pump petrol and water injected

(http://img852.imageshack.us/img852/9722/img2549boostitbro.jpg)

(http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/1116/img2545boostitbro.jpg)

(http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/7263/img2536boostitbro.jpg)

To give this comparison test some context:
RICESP (stock std 13B-REW engine, full catalyst exhaust, T04 type turbo, plumb back waste gate, small standard inter cooler 1310kg)
*fully compliant genuine road car*

ND4SPD (Cosmo 13B, full bridge port, T51 type turbo charger, large front mounted inter cooler, gutted exhaust, open waste gate pipe 1250kg)
*quasi race car!*

I did some very interesting comparisons to ND4SPD (Mazda Capella I tuned with RRWEP110 WI) V\'s RICESP via the immense analysis power of the VBOX :)

I\'ll list up some comparison results: About the total FALLACY of " typical dyno sheets"! v\'s real world power and times taken for vehicles to actually do "work" with known levels of weight/mass!!!

This car makes on a dynohomodynamics ~390rwkw on 19psi boost (full bridge port & T51 turbo 1250kg as run at race track) where we got these recordings. You will see RICESP at 1310kg run weight is just as powerful (real rwkw! power as measured by me via VBOX!) and its just as fast in peak power band too (what really matters at the end of the day rather than poofter dyno sheet comparisons)

This report is of ND4SPD in its peak power band (6000rpm to 8200rpm) = 110kph to 150kph in 3rd gear on 19psi boost (VBOX measure = ~310rwkw owner has sheets of 380 to 390rwkw on homo dynamics guess machine)
ND4SPD = 110kmh to 150kmh = 2.07 seconds
(http://img861.imageshack.us/img861/4669/capellawakefiledparkrun.jpg)

This report shows RICESP and the first one is a FC RX7 fitted with a bridge port 13B running 15psi boost and a GT35 turbo lol (you can see I am twice as fast as it lol 4.43 seconds V\'s 2.06 seconds!) This car apparently makes 270rwkw dynohomodynaimcs @ 16psi boost LOL! You can see these dyno figures are not worth ....ing on in the REAL WORLD! and are vastly overstated from what the cars actually makes when you apply real physics to them!!!
(http://img845.imageshack.us/img845/2466/donmega1.jpg)

And the other result table is at full boost when I tuned it (ND4SPD) on road just before setting national dyno record http://www.riceracing.com.au/water-injection.htm < *read customer testimonial* (which to this day still stands!) for the only ever 13B rotary to lay down 3 back to back power runs of this level and still be able to drive home :) on pump petrol :)
Boost, EGT, RPM, AFR sensors fitted in this tuning session.
RICESP = 110kmh to 150kmh = 2.06 seconds
(http://img864.imageshack.us/img864/207/comparisongraph2222.jpg)

My RX7 is pretty quick I think you will all agree :) and this is still not sharing the current state of high power tune :) *I\'ll save that for another day*

Quote from: BlitzBoy;771949That wont happen, Rxmotors (does not post on here for his own personal reasons), Hayward (he posts but I have yet to see proof of him making a high powered rotary that has broken into 10s or recorded high terminals on the strip, so he needs to prove himself in my eyes in regards to outright power IMO),
Dragon (suspended), oldone (banned) , Pip (never ever seen him post on a forum, too busy I imagine)

My engines get proven for 20 minute races and alot more in 24 hour races  for lap after lap and race after race without rebuild, not for just 10 seconds at a time.So drag racing is not everything in this world and in fact proves very little with the exception that an engine can run and make power continually for 10 seconds at a time,then it cools down and waits for the next 10 seconds,the rest of the time on the road these cars are only making 40 or 50hp while cruising,(hardly stressed),think about it,where on the road are you constantly at revs and full throttle making the full power that the engine is tuned for? I can tell you less than 0.1% of the time it is driven,whereas a circuit race car it is at revs and power pretty much all of the time it is not braking, so who\'s engines have really proved to be tested thoroughly? I\'ll leave that for people to make their own minds up.

I was talking about big power in my statement not endurance racing where you dont need big power. You have never tuned a big powered rotary fact, you have made good circuit engines I agree, but they dont make big power.

Fastest FD circuit cars I have seen was the ex whiftbitz car (engine and tuning done by Jaydee) which put in high terminals on the strip as well proving it had high power and lasted on the circuit

So shut me up and finish your 3 rotor Rx3 Drag car, thats been 5 years in the making :D

LOL
We are producing very consistent 500hp plus engines with the same porting at 1 bar boost and obviously higher at 1.3 bar, and with a variation on the porting we are are making nearly 600 hp with some specials, and all on medium sized turbo\'s. Oh and if you need proof then just look at race results where cars with 700hp + are being beaten on track regularly.
The highest terminal on strip with a car so far we have done the engine for is 130mph,so hardly slow,especially since it was not a dedicated drag race car like yours.Notice that terminal is the same as yours.........and all at 1 bar boost not 1.25 like yours.
So Mark,if you really want to boast then go on circuit against one of my customers and see how good your engine really is, when you beat one of mine then you can really say you have arrived and I\'ll take my hat of to you.

All I can say Carl is :Thumbsup!

Quote from: HaywardRotary;773001.
The highest terminal on strip with a car so far we have done the engine for is 130mph,so hardly slow,especially since it was not a dedicated drag race car like yours.Notice that terminal is the same as yours.........and all at 1 bar boost not 1.25 like yours.

LOL show me the timing slip

Quote from: HaywardRotary;773001LOL
We are producing very consistent 500hp plus engines with the same porting at 1 bar boost and obviously higher at 1.3 bar, and with a variation on the porting we are are making nearly 600 hp with some specials, and all on medium sized turbo\'s

Where are dyno sheets prooving the figures?

Quote from: HaywardRotary;773001So Mark,if you really want to boast then go on circuit against one of my customers and see how good your engine really is, when you beat one of mine then you can really say you have arrived and I\'ll take my hat of to you.

Blitzen, if someone says this to me, I will never back down even if I know I will lose :3gears-rh

Come on man, Carl has made an open challenge, You can not afford to reject it...:D

I will personally come and watch the race and I am even willing to put some money down on you, accept the Challenge :Ladys-man

Carl, No disrespect, I am just making Mark tempted regarding the race :Thumbs-up

So Mark, do you accept the challenge?

Mir

Quote from: HaywardRotary;773001. Oh and if you need proof then just look at race results where cars with 700hp + are being beaten on track regularly.

Well done having a decent driver and nicely setup car also helps, you have come a long way since the dark days of that Brunswick car in the Dubai 24hours which the fiestas were faster lapping.

If had a the cash and the driving skills (which I gladly admit I dont have either) I would gladly get involved in circuit racing

Quote from: Mir;773008Blitzen, if someone says this to me, I will never back down even if I know I will lose :3gears-rh

Come on man, Carl has made an open challenge, You can not afford to reject it...:D

I will personally come and watch the race and I am even willing to put some money down on you, accept the Challenge :Ladys-man

Carl, No disrespect, I am just making Mark tempted regarding the race :Thumbs-up

So Mark, do you accept the challenge?

Mir

Dude I have been waiting for years for Carl to get that sh itbox of a 20B Drag RX3 running so I gladly whip his butt, its he who is avoiding the challenge.

This thread turning into challenges :yes
 
I see it as a personal challenge to build an igniter module that out peforms the stocker and still uses the stock coils - oh and doesn\'t use CDI.

Quote from: BlitzBoy;772994I was talking about big power in my statement not endurance racing where you dont need big power. You have never tuned a big powered rotary fact, you have made good circuit engines I agree, but they dont make big power.
 
Fastest FD circuit cars I have seen was the ex whiftbitz car (engine and tuning done by Jaydee) which put in high terminals on the strip as well proving it had high power and lasted on the circuit
 
So shut me up and finish your 3 rotor Rx3 Drag car, thats been 5 years in the making :D

big power isnt everything about making a car go fast down the strip is it?
 
my dads friend spent years building a hotrod which was powerful enough to do wheel stands on the road, 650HP, and only managed to ever get a 13 second pass, with around 110mph speeds.
 
why? (the same question i asked and the same question he asked the other races which were running 10\'s,11\'s)
 
simple answer was that his car wasnt setup properly, manual gearbox with road tyres equals fail, the seasoned racers there said that if he was going to run a manual box he should run slick tyres so that they slipped more with easier control, or run an auto box with the road tyres so traction wasnt lost from coming off/on the power causing wheel spin.
 
so high power isnt everything is it for actually running quick times. or speeds.
 
not having a go at you directly Mark, just putting my reply in context with the conversation.
 
As for Carls drag car, i will have that off him one day (lotto win tonight hopefully) finish it and kick everybodies arse down the strip.
 
Drag racing isnt everything but i sure as hell love it!!!

Going back to what the thread is about, im sticking with the FD ignition and twin power

Popcorn :D :rolleyes:

Quote from: Nik da Greek;773022Popcorn :D :rolleyes:

eh?..........................

Quote from: Nik da Greek;773022Popcorn :D :rolleyes:

MMMMMMMMMMMMMm............

BTW my RX3 has been 7 years in the build so far!I\'ll wait another 7 years i think.
Like an aged wine its mellowing......

Quote from: Grant Monkhouse;773024eh?..........................

It\'s what happens when these threads (inevitably ;)) descend into handbags at dawn and bltchiness, the trolls amongst us sit on the sidelines and eat popcorn and throw it at the combatants down in the arena :rollin. Nothing like a good  catfight and some popcorn :D

Quote from: HaywardRotary;773027MMMMMMMMMMMMMm............
 
BTW my RX3 has been 7 years in the build so far!I\'ll wait another 7 years i think.
Like an aged wine its mellowing......

7 years is just about enough time for me to save up enough to buy off you Carl.

Quote from: Nik da Greek;773030It\'s what happens when these threads (inevitably ;)) descend into handbags at dawn and bltchiness, the trolls amongst us sit on the sidelines and eat popcorn and throw it at the combatants down in the arena :rollin. Nothing like a good catfight and some popcorn :D

ha yeh, im surprised you havent said something as your favourite person had posted on the earlier page??:Laugh:Laugh:Laugh

i think im going to stop asking questions from now on as my threads tend to end up with people having a dig.
 
and i just dont like that.

Dyno sheet of one of many that we have built that runs in circuit racing.

Quote from: Grant Monkhouse;773034ha yeh, im surprised you havent said something as your favourite person had posted on the earlier page??:Laugh:Laugh:Laugh

Did he? I hadn\'t noticed :rollin Must be feeling a bit short if his reply fitted on a single page, normally has a bit more to say than that lol :rolleyes:

Quote from: Grant Monkhouse;773035i think im going to stop asking questions from now on as my threads tend to end up with people having a dig.
 
and i just dont like that.

Well, if you will keep asking intelligent questions ;)... unfortunately, this is what happens in the rotary world when people actually want to know the answer to something, all the people with a vested interest in proving that their solution is the best try to shout each other down without pausing to think there may possibly be more than one answer. I\'m only surprised there hasn\'t been an option involving price + vat + delivery + vat on delivery yet :D. Read, sift out the stabbings and assassinations and there\'ll probably be a nugget or two of truth and good advice in there somewhere.

Gotta love what\'s probably the smallest community in the car enthusiast world, and easily the bltchiest :rollin. Keeps me amused anyway. Want some popcorn? No salt. :Thumbs-up

looks like it likes to rev, any details on the engine spec, also i assume at the flywheel?

Quote from: turbotoaster;773040looks like it likes to rev, any details on the engine spec, also i assume at the flywheel?

Flywheel yes,but we have others with more power but i don\'t allways take the dyno sheets.
This is a full bridgeport 13b with Hayward rotary apex seals,GT40/94 turbo,It revs to 10,000 but as you can see it is not needed to go that high.
On the same pattern we have built 6 identical engines that when dynoed all produced just over 500 hp at 1 bar boost so very consistent.

Quote from: Nik da Greek;773039Did he? I hadn\'t noticed :rollin Must be feeling a bit short if his reply fitted on a single page, normally has a bit more to say than that lol :rolleyes:
 
Well, if you will keep asking intelligent questions ;)... unfortunately, this is what happens in the rotary world when people actually want to know the answer to something, all the people with a vested interest in proving that their solution is the best try to shout each other down without pausing to think there may possibly be more than one answer. I\'m only surprised there hasn\'t been an option involving price + vat + delivery + vat on delivery yet :D. Read, sift out the stabbings and assassinations and there\'ll probably be a nugget or two of truth and good advice in there somewhere.
 
Gotta love what\'s probably the smallest community in the car enthusiast world, and easily the bltchiest :rollin. Keeps me amused anyway. Want some popcorn? No salt. :Thumbs-up

do you have any toffey pop corn? thats my fave. lol
 
i do sift through the info the rotary web community provides, as if i see common factors through peoples advice then thats the bits i get interested in. and research, whether its more from the web, or books, or speaking to people that have done it.
 
i do find it frustrating at times when people get .....y towards people that i have the utmost respect for, i think you can work out who i mean, as this man helped me out more than needed when i killed my FD and has spent many of hours when i have been at his shop sharing his knowledge when he should have been earning some brass.

Quote from: HaywardRotary;773047Flywheel yes,but we have others with more power but i don\'t allways take the dyno sheets.
This is a full bridgeport 13b with Hayward rotary apex seals,GT40/94 turbo,It revs to 10,000 but as you can see it is not needed to go that high.
On the same pattern we have built 6 identical engines that when dynoed all produced just over 500 hp at 1 bar boost so very consistent.

i cant wait to have mine done at only 14 psi then carl.
 
i do beleive you when you say the car is going to be scary, even though i dont sound it over the phone.:D:D

forgot to mention on stock coils with HKS twin powers.

Quote from: HaywardRotary;773050forgot to mention on stock coils with HKS twin powers.

Is that twinpowers as in more than one, or just one twinpower carl.
Reckon your 20b would hit low 8s carl?
No rush though.

Keith

Quote from: TRIND-FD;773059Is that twinpowers as in more than one, or just one twinpower carl.
Reckon your 20b would hit low 8s carl?
No rush though.

Keith

Hi Keith,
I meant each engine that we did had a twin power on stock coils,whoops.
Yeah the RX3 has already ran a 7 second 1/4 mile in my dreams!

Will be nice to see Chris run 7s, won\'t be long;)
Come on carl you got 7yrs now to get it finished.

Keith

Quote from: HaywardRotary;773036Dyno sheet of one of many that we have built that runs in circuit racing.

finally not bad, finally caught up with the rest of us , how many years did it take LOL :chat

Looks a bit peaky though.

Ps Reworx mapped my old spec 430rwhp 505 fly on only a "half" bridge motor at 1 bar a 3-4 years ago , seems you still need full bridge to get over 500 Fly hp at that boost pressure.

Here is when they mapped it at only "10psi" 401 REAR Wheel approx 475 fly, seems I make more power lower down at a lower boost pressure (well out of my turbos efficiency zone at 10PSI) then yours at 14psi, look at the 5k rpm and 6k rpm.

5k I am producing 220bhp at the "Wheels" and Carl you are producing only 200 at the FLY , at 6k  I am producing 300 at the wheels and you Carl are only at 290 at the Fly hmmmm  I wonder what will be faster on the road or circuit, looks like my old engine setup spools better and has a better and broader power band LOL :Ladys-man

Anyway I dont race dynos, see you on the strip when you get your rx3 or a customer of yours goes dragging seriously :wave:InLove

ps my new full bridge only needed 1.15 bar to get 132 terminal would be higher if I changed up to 4th but due to gearing im keeping it in third over the line, plus the new setup has an even quicker spool up

(http://www.mazdarotaryclub.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=41131&d=1222533614)

What you don\'t realise Mark due to your inexperience is that the tuning is done deliberately so that the power increases in a gradual fashion rather than suddenly coming for circuit racing so as not to upset the balance of the car when exiting bends so that it makes it easier for the driver to control. I could easily have it coming in harder lower down.

Oh, and I notice your graph is not really smooth,why is that?

i was wondering that too? i havent ever seen many dyno graphs but Carls does look a lot smoother.
 
what type of ignition was that dyno run done on Mark?

hahahahahaha I have heard it all now you deliberately made the power curve peaky ...OK Carl what ever you say , dont worry the power was smooth, Reworx didnt waste time fine tuning to make a curve look good on a dyno graph for just 10 psi. Spent the time at higher boost levels.

Ignition same as I have now, Motec ECU, stock ignitors, Bosch Inductive coils for leading,stock trailing

Quote from: Grant Monkhouse;773021Going back to what the thread is about, im sticking with the FD ignition and twin power

That will not be adequate for all fueling requirements and especially not on a full water injected car. Read my full "blog" as to why on my water injection posts at aquamist.

*I directly test both back to back, on the same set up (not a doctored result either)*

And what the hell happened to this thread????? :spank

Don\'t get confused with a certain power range or terminal speed

The question the OP asked about was water injection and pump petrol in a road going application and part time track car?

In this situation you wont be running a bridge port or 5" dump pipe with one muffler, nor will you be running exotic fuel. You will be running smaller turbo\'s, quiet exhaust and normal petrol. In this case to make high power you will need to run high boost (higher than most mention here) and to have a reliable engine you will be running excess fuel ratio\'s in the order of 40% or more...... All of these requirements stress Inductive based ignition systems to the point that they will not function without problems (be it lack of power, or not working full stop).

This is why Capacitive Discharge was developed, and used with great success in 1970\'s with cars like the Porsche 917/30 (1500bhp anyone? twin turbo 5.4lt 1.5bar boost), in F1 turbo days all cars ran Capacitive Discharge ignition systems, high pressures and lots of fuel dictate massive qty\'s of ignition energy to initiate the spark event. Inductive cant ever match it, and even if you try it still wont make the power of a CD system. What is more important is CD is far more reliable.

Now specific to the OP\'s request.

The HKS DLI system is a cross inductive boost and mini CD system, inductive at low engine speed and CD at higher loads, the problem with it is that it just does not have enough grunt (as I have shown in my own shared info) I did it with a full rewire, new coils, new leads, tested it for over a year............. found its limits (especially on WI at high boost and power, with proven levels of performance) then refitted my CD system and I can tell you its a nigh and day difference :Typing

To Nik the homo! I have NO VESTED INTEREST!
My only interest is imparting real knowledge, first hand!, fully proven, no bull...., just qualified, proven, educated, factual, results! If you can do that same then I encourage you to stand up and show us what the hell you can do beside talk shi7 about me on a forum of all places! I have met many people like you in real life and you I bet just like the others retreat pretty quick when I confront you ........... remember the world is a small place and you never know when you migh meet someone in reality when you least expect it ;) so my advice to you is shut your trap while you still have the option.

Here you go Grant ;) :Thumbsup!

To save a .... fight you can E-Mail me again and I can help you out on a budget version of the CD (no I wont supply it Nik da Gook!!!) I\'ll just help another enthusiast just like I have hundreds of others over 20 years of doing this !!!!

Quote from: Grant Monkhouse;771711As a few people will know I am going to be running a 13B bridge ported turbo engine in my car, with fuel injection.

Now as I\'m Getting closer to where I need to sort the wiring for the stand alone I want to know what to do with my ignition. I have already bought an hks twin power so I can basically take the ignition set up from an FD and run it with my engine.
I told you what to do and what you will have with either option, put a CDI on it and do it once and do it right!@

I am also wanting to run W/I with my setup so need something that can handle this.
no HKS DLI will not hack it at high boost and high water rates

The easy answer is to just use the twin power, but I have been told about using LS coils as you don\'t need to have an ignighter and provide a good spark for the WI.
YES its easy!, very limited in what you can do though!

I know I should use the search function but if I don\'t know where to start I don\'t know what I\'m looking for.
Deal with real people with real results in the types of cars you run, simple. Forums in general are a hole, so ask people who have cars in the specification you want to run! :burnout

Nice write ups Pete regarding ignition system.... Except what you have said about Nik vice versa (as I dont want to encourage you or Nik to go bitter with each other).

Now to the point, So you are saying that in effect, CDI is a better option compared with Inductive??

Umm I am tempted to go CDI, But do you think it would "OK" to run it on a street car as well? I know your answer, but can you explain why? bearing mind about the traffic etc etc!!

Much appreciate your info..

Mir

Quote from: RICE RACING;773117To Nik the homo! I have NO VESTED INTEREST!
My only interest is imparting real knowledge, first hand!, fully proven, no bull...., just qualified, proven, educated, factual, results! If you can do that same then I encourage you to stand up and show us what the hell you can do beside talk shi7 about me on a forum of all places! I have met many people like you in real life and you I bet just like the others retreat pretty quick when I confront you ........... remember the world is a small place and you never know when you migh meet someone in reality when you least expect it ;) so my advice to you is shut your trap while you still have the option.

You sir should be banned for threatening people like that - simplez. :Nono!

Quote from: Prof;773120You sir should be banned for threatening people like that - simplez. :Nono!

No problem, ban me :wave

All you will have then is another forum where no one of any ability posts, either by choice or stupid decision.

It is highly insulting to read TOTAL GARBAGE by turds like Nik the Geek!

No wonder capable people are not bothering with forums anymore :Hammer

I personally dont give a shi7 and never ever have! If you want me and people of my ability to contribute here then you will tell people like Nik the Geek to shut the fuk up with their opinion and slander towards capable people like myself who help people rather than talk pure unadulterated garbage.

:wave

Quote from: Mir;773119Nice write ups Pete regarding ignition system.... Except what you have said about Nik vice versa (as I dont want to encourage you or Nik to go bitter with each other).

Now to the point, So you are saying that in effect, CDI is a better option compared with Inductive??

Umm I am tempted to go CDI, But do you think it would "OK" to run it on a street car as well? I know your answer, but can you explain why? bearing mind about the traffic etc etc!!

Much appreciate your info..

Mir

Mir,

I have run CDI and my customers have (across all brands for nearly 2 decades now) all are street cars (lots of race cars nowadays) but back when I started all street cars and daily drivers.

Absolutely CD is better than Inductive, for reasons I outlined before.

It\'s not cheaper, but its better. Don\'t get side tracked by dyno graphs comparing non equal things, compare an apple to an apple and you will see that CD is vastly superior to inductive, pure engineering shows this btw. :eek:

I think banning is not a solution to any problem, rather its another way of taking one\'s side...Hence, in my opinion, this issue between Pete and Nik should be addressed accordingly, not banning anyone of them. I personally would like to hear from Nik and I love his funny replies, having said that, I also I like the knowledge of Pete.. at least he came forward with some evidential based work.... So please dont talk about banning lolllll

Mir

Quote from: RICE RACING;773122Mir,

I have run CDI and my customers have (across all brands for nearly 2 decades now) all are street cars (lots of race cars nowadays) but back when I started all street cars and daily drivers.

Absolutely CD is better than Inductive, for reasons I outlined before.

It\'s not cheaper, but its better. Don\'t get side tracked by dyno graphs comparing non equal things, compare an apple to an apple and you will see that CD is vastly superior to inductive, pure engineering shows this btw. :eek:

Pete as always, I appreciate your reply.. :cheers

Mir

Quote from: Mir;773123I think banning is not a solution to any problem, rather its another way of taking one\'s side...Hence, in my opinion, this issue between Pete and Nik should be addressed accordingly, not banning anyone of them. I personally would like to hear from Nik and I love his funny replies, having said that, I also I like the knowledge of Pete.. at least he came forward with some evidential based work.... So please dont talk about banning lolllll

Mir

When someone openly insults me as a person and my business I find that highly offensive I also find it bemusing that this level of garbage reply is left on a forum for others to read, which is only put up to slur the person targeted in the idiots posts.

Pretty low considering how I go out of my way to put up information that others copy and take as their own! LOL and I don\'t earn one cent off it! nor do I get any respect for taking the time to educate people free of charge.

Peter

Quote from: RICE RACING;773126When someone openly insults me as a person and my business I find that highly offensive I also find it bemusing that this level of garbage reply is left on a forum for others to read, which is only put up to slur the person targeted in the idiots posts.

Pretty low considering how I go out of my way to put up information that others copy and take as their own! LOL and I don\'t earn one cent off it! nor do I get any respect for taking the time to educate people free of charge.

Peter

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but I highly regard your knowledge when it comes to rotaries because I am waiting for ONE, MAPPER/TUNNER, to come forward and prove you wrong....I am eagerly waiting for that time to come lolll

Nik seems to be a lively person...I dont know why and what happened..but I am sure this can be addressed amicably..

Mir

Quote from: Mir;773127Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but I highly regard your knowledge when it comes to rotaries because I am waiting for ONE, MAPPER/TUNNER, to come forward and prove you wrong....I am eagerly waiting for that time to come lolll

Nik seems to be a lively person...I dont know why and what happened..but I am sure this can be addressed amicably..

Mir

I agree on opinions, I have no problem with that.

But when someone posts that I know everything about everything and I will just post and shout my way till you submit that is just pure garbage.
I post up results, more than anyone else, real stuff, not doctored to sell a product or a service, but things rather that others can choose to read and follow if they want. It may even save them some heartache and cost in the long term and low and behold give them some more performance ..........

I educate people (Automotive and Engineering) as a profession btw, so its why I probably do the same in my time off here. Do I know everything???? NO! Do I continue to learn? YES! I long to learn off others who have tested things and post up information in an electronic world, its what I do in the real world too........ anyone who has the opportunity to meet me in real life will tell you that :WaveBye

Quote from: RICE RACING;773117 I have met many people like you in real life

Really? :rolleyes: I bet you haven\'t ;)

Quote from: RICE RACING;773117 and you I bet just like the others retreat pretty  quick when I confront you

Which just goes to show you\'re a really poor judge of character as well as a truly offensive person.

I was going to write a nice sarcastic reply to all of your invective drivel, but I really don\'t need to. You demean yourself to the point of derision every time you open your "mouth".

As to your astonishing hard-won knowledge, well wowsers, well done you. Plenty of people have built fast RX-7s with or without your amazing water injection religion or without turning themselves into an insufferable @rsehole in the process. You keep boring us about how you\'ve developed the car at a cost of hundreds of thousands of dollars to the level it\'s at. I can\'t honestly remember the power level it is at and I\'ve no interest in wading through page after page of your twisted rantings to remind myself. I do, however, remember thinking "wow, he spent hundreds of thousands of dollars to get a car about as poweful as mine. That cost me a tiny fraction of the price.". Which one of us is the "homo" now? :rollin

Quote from: RICE RACING;773126When someone openly insults me as a person and my business I find that highly offensive I also find it bemusing that this level of garbage reply is left on a forum for others to read, which is only put up to slur the person targeted in the idiots posts.
 
Pretty low considering how I go out of my way to put up information that others copy and take as their own! LOL and I don\'t earn one cent off it! nor do I get any respect for taking the time to educate people free of charge.
 
Peter

Peter,
 
If you read back through your many posts on this forum - there seems to be a common theme. You\'re approach can some times come across as quite agressive / opioniated.
 
I got no problem with that, as long as it doesn\'t descend into slagging people off or referring to \'homo\' this or \'homo\' that. You\'re obviously a knowledgeable guy - so just say what you need to say - stick to the facts, post up your good points and leave the attitude at home dude, all it does is make you seem a lesser person for it.
 
I like to read about other peoples solutions to the problem of power and reliabilty - I appreciate there isn\'t just one right way of doing something - and that there are pro\'s and con\'s for all things - yes even WI has it\'s con\'s.
 
I don\'t know what\'s gone on between you and Nik - he\'s an intelligent guy too - my guess is you\'ve rubbed each other up the wrong way.
 
It\'s a shame this thread has dived down into a slanging much - I feel sorry for Mr Monkhouse - he just wanted to know something and he\'s ended up with handbags at dawn ;)
 
Back to ignition guys - let\'s have a table of pros and cons - oh, and has anyone got a twinspark I can take apart (dead one ok ;) ) ?

is it safe to come out now?

Quote from: m1tch;773141is it safe to come out now?

I hope so as ive ony  just woken up and im not ready to defend myself
 
Rice Racing - i will email you soon about ignition system, what i will do with the guidance you give me is build the CDI system alongside whilst running my car on the standard igniton with the twin power, mainly due to the cost factor, ATM i have probably got around £2000 to get the car running and rolling, miscelaneous bits, wheels(very hard choice to suit an old school BTW) and mapping the car, and i am thinking of running a charge cooler instead of intercooler(lack of space and i think they look amazing) oh and WI:Thumbs-up:Thumbs-up all which do add up. so hopefully i can do as you have done and run one system then change it over, i could buy all of these things now but saving for a house takes all my spare cash.

nik i think i may be to blame for instigating this arguement, and i apologise.
 
Everyone - i might come across as being wimpy for not wanting people to have ..... fights, buts thats the way it should be on a forum where people ask question to learn some more so they can apply it in real life situations on there own cars.
 
for example Peter has pointed out a number of times the aquamist website, i decided to go and check it out, amazing knowledge on there, there is a thread about preturbo WI, 46 pages, and read everyone of them and know so much more from reading it. hopefully i can put it into practice when i get my ignition on the car going as standard and then a full CDI system(over time)

WI is an amazing thing, if you go on rx7club and read through peoples builds most of them run WI, and there engine reliability with high engine power is well know.
 
i started reading a thread but Howard Coleman where he points out the failings of when mazda turbo\'d the rotary and explains how the \'we\' have now improved the turbo\'d rotary by going single, and using WI.
 
For people that dont know of Howard then put it this way, when he posts on rx7club, people listen and no-one .....es, and it is a site full of ignorant people

Quote from: Grant Monkhouse;773149i started reading a thread but Howard Coleman where he points out the failings of when mazda turbo\'d the rotary and explains how the \'we\' have now improved the turbo\'d rotary by going single, and using WI.

You got a linky - pretty please ?

FC is single turbo already :D

Quote from: Grant Monkhouse;773149For people that dont know of Howard then put it this way, when he posts on rx7club, people listen and no-one .....es, and it is a site full of ignorant people

If you repeat a lie often enough, it becomes the truth.:rolleyes:

You know, I digged through archive on RX7Club, and 10 years ago, there were really knowlegeable people WITH running cars, these people were contributing with what they experienced alongside with Peter. And they were producing real usable power on pump gas and pushing limits.

But then somewhere from nowhere appeared Howard Coleman and Brian Cain, alcoholic saviours of rotary engine:god

Note: Both these guys filled Rx7club with hundreds of pages of pure BS, or what they read elsewhere:2Rolleyes And guess what, moderators on that forum are their boyfriends or something and make this "contribution" sticky:confused: There are blunt people, who bow in front of their ranting, but really knowledgeable people are in shadows and really can give a f*ck about these "gods"

Also these two experts don´t have running cars - taking advice from them?:confused:

This isn´t against auxiliary injection of any form, there are many people running it, testing it and sharing what they found:cheers

But these two, didn´t contribute with anything except their ranting and blowing engines:flamed

Take your time to seek which people are true leaders, and not internet heros:2Confused

Quote from: Miki;773158If you repeat a lie often enough, it becomes the truth.:rolleyes:

You know, I digged through archive on RX7Club, and 10 years ago, there were really knowlegeable people WITH running cars, these people were contributing with what they experienced alongside with Peter. And they were producing real usable power on pump gas and pushing limits.

But then somewhere from nowhere appeared Howard Coleman and Brian Cain, alcoholic saviours of rotary engine:god

Note: Both these guys filled Rx7club with hundreds of pages of pure BS, or what they read elsewhere:2Rolleyes And guess what, moderators on that forum are their boyfriends or something and make this "contribution" sticky:confused: There are blunt people, who bow in front of their ranting, but really knowledgeable people are in shadows and really can give a f*ck about these "gods"

Also these two experts don´t have running cars - taking advice from them?:confused:

This isn´t against auxiliary injection of any form, there are many people running it, testing it and sharing what they found:cheers

But these two, didn´t contribute with anything except their ranting and blowing engines:flamed

Take your time to seek which people are true leaders, and not internet heros:2Confused

:Thumbs-up

beat me to it LOL !

Quote from: Grant Monkhouse;773146Rice Racing - i will email you soon about ignition system, what i will do with the guidance you give me is build the CDI system alongside whilst running my car on the standard igniton with the twin power, mainly due to the cost factor, ATM i have probably got around £2000 to get the car running and rolling, miscelaneous bits, wheels(very hard choice to suit an old school BTW) and mapping the car, and i am thinking of running a charge cooler instead of intercooler(lack of space and i think they look amazing) oh and WI:Thumbs-up:Thumbs-up all which do add up. so hopefully i can do as you have done and run one system then change it over, i could buy all of these things now but saving for a house takes all my spare cash.

No worries mate :) and no matter what some Nuk the Geek Turd may type on the interweb in his "opinion" you don\'t need to spend much ca$h to achieve what I have, I know I spent about 1/20th of his estimate LOL *fukturd!* another case of know all dip....zter sharing his "opinion" which holds zero value to anyone but himself!!! :evillaugh

In regards to WI, I cant understand why those guys in the US run 100% meth as the injectant and running it at large quantities ,replacing up to 30% of the actual pump fuel in some cases.

Water has the best properties in taking heat away and det suppression, if you running 100% meth you might as well make it the main fuel and get rid of the AI equipment, eg  a proper meth car, meth is a fuel at the end of the day.

I will be running 50:50 mix WI again shortly to take advantages of both liquids

Would everyone please take note that just the same as racist comments etc, homophobic comments and abusive behavior toward other members will not be tolerated.

MRC is and always has been a family orientated club and the swear filter is there for a reason and not to be used to get round words to abuse or degenerate people.

The internet is big enough for you to go away and behave how you wish elsewhere so if you feel unable to comply with the above please do so.

It\'s this sort of thing that makes me happy I run a stock motor.  No need for fancy and expensive ignition systems and no need to get embroiled in this sort of internet chatter.

Specific Heat Values - how much energy is required to raise the liquid by 1 degree per Kilogram
 
 
Water :  4200J/KgC
 
Methanol :  250JKgC
 
Ethanol : 230JKgC
 
Gasoline : 2200J/Kgc
 
 
Latent Heat of Evaporation - how much heat energy is required to evaporate the liquid (per Kilogram)
 
Water : 2.3 x 10^6 J/Kg
 
Methanol:  1.1 x 10^6 J/KG
 
Ethanol:  8.5 x 10^5 J/KG
 
Gasoline:  2.4 x 10^5 J/KG
 
 
Water takes a lot more heat away, and it will also recover heat energy into mechanical energy as steam in the combustion chamber :):), as it wont be broken down.

Quote from: BlitzBoy;773166In regards to WI, I cant understand why those guys in the US run 100% meth as the injectant and running it at large quantities ,replacing up to 30% of the actual pump fuel in some cases.

Probably because they´ve been exposed to methanol fumes for to long:rollin

Seriously, they´re acting as they won´t to know true, why they choosen methanol as knock suppressant - yes, they claim it to be, is beyond my understanding:confused:

But you can see simple trace, water injected guys are running around 500 cc of water around 500 HP level and their cars are running, so they don´t have a reason to post about how it blown:yes

Methanol only guys - like Howard and BDC, are running up to 2000 cc of methanol only, yet their knock count and claimed power are not up to level of WI guys, but they have some urge to post about how it works:rolleyes:

50/50 guys also producing good power and reliability, taking advantage of methanol as charge coolant and water as knock suppressant with lower levels of needed ignition energy, they are running, so no reason to :Typing

Quote from: Miki;773158If you repeat a lie often enough, it becomes the truth.:rolleyes:
 
You know, I digged through archive on RX7Club, and 10 years ago, there were really knowlegeable people WITH running cars, these people were contributing with what they experienced alongside with Peter. And they were producing real usable power on pump gas and pushing limits.
 
But then somewhere from nowhere appeared Howard Coleman and Brian Cain, alcoholic saviours of rotary engine:god
 
Note: Both these guys filled Rx7club with hundreds of pages of pure BS, or what they read elsewhere:2Rolleyes And guess what, moderators on that forum are their boyfriends or something and make this "contribution" sticky:confused: There are blunt people, who bow in front of their ranting, but really knowledgeable people are in shadows and really can give a f*ck about these "gods"
i didnt say these 2 were gods but merely meaning that on that particular forum where most replies consist of "use the search button" they actually have intuitive information for others to take what bits of knowledge they want from the masses of verbal chunder and go and apply it to something that will hopefully work for them.
 
Also these two experts don´t have running cars - taking advice from them?:confused:
 
This isn´t against auxiliary injection of any form, there are many people running it, testing it and sharing what they found:cheers
 
But these two, didn´t contribute with anything except their ranting and blowing engines:flamed
^^^ i did notice on his "seperating fiction from reality" thread that it has been over a year now since his car actually worked properly, however he is doing something most people cant afford to do
Take your time to seek which people are true leaders, and not internet heros:2Confused

....................................

Quote from: Prof;773151You got a linky - pretty please ?

here you prof, i didnt read all of it but found it interesting
http://www.rx7club.com/showthread.php?t=806104&highlight=howard+coleman
theres a very nice picture of an rx3 on the first post!!

this thread has gone totally away from what i originaly intended it for.
 
first point i like to make is that from the first bits of info we discussed is that the FD ignition is more thn capable up to a certain point and good strong HP numbers can be made, but as stated by a few people there is a point where something is need that will keep up with power demanded from the engine by me.
 
yes 600HP is a lot of power, but with everyone one that likes the thrill of going fast, you always want more, so an ignition system will be needed
 
which is what Peter is pointing out that CDI is the way to go.
 
i am prety certain that 500FWHp is going to scare the sh!t out of me in the rx4, and i will have to modify the car more and more to take the power and go faster.
 
but i will want to go faster, which means more power, car set up different etc.
 
so although the twin power will do for now, i will build another ststem which will cope with high boost and WI, yes i may not need WI but this stuff i find amazing and really interesting.
 
i could just get a 3 rotor to gain more power easier but that takes the expenses up even more greatly than getting more power from a 13B

Quote from: Grant Monkhouse;773184i could just get a 3 rotor to gain more power easier but that takes the expenses up even more greatly than getting more power from a 13B

buy mine! :D

Quote from: Mir;773185buy mine! :D

i would but if i could but i cant. LOL

have we stopped the name calling now? can we get back to this?
I am in a similar situation in trying to decide whether or not I should go to a CDI set up. I am coming at this from trying to decide what is best rather than what is good enough, and frankly I still cant find a definitive answer. Initally I believed that CDI was the be all and end all, but after reading this thread (LINKY) (http://www.efi101.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=390&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0) I am not so sure anymore. the thread is quite long winded, and is a few years old now, but I still believe the info is relevent. the take home points I got was
CDI allows for a very quick charge time, and gives a high output discharge.
the CDI discharge (i.e. the spark) is very powerful but is very short duration.
this short duration might not be that benefical at low rpm, which is why they have multispark facilities at low rpm.
inductive ignition has longer charge times, but also has a longer spark duration. this may help in ensuring full combustion. the longer charge times mean that at higher rpm, there isnt enough time to fully charge the coil between sparks, this obviously can be improved by having one coil per plug rather than a wasted spark setup. also in an N/A setup the energy required to initiate the spark reduces once you get above the point of peak torque. hence lack of time to charge isnt as detrimental as you would first think- this is why F1 teams still run inductive (well they did then, not sure if they do now!). increasing the cyclinder pressure results in a greater energy requirement which means that a high RPM, high boost engine might swamp an inductive setup. this isnt helped by the fact that inductive systems generally have lower energy outputs than a cdi system. HOWEVER, developments in coil design mean that some inductive systems are approaching the outputs of cdi systems. later on in the thread, a dwell time of 5ms is given for a high power inductive coil. Assuming the spark plug fires every crank revolution and one coil per plug, this gives a max rpm of around 12000rpm before you start running out of charge time, which is more than most of us will need?!
obviously coils such as these will require a large current supply, so will require a suitable ecu to run them if they are driven directly by the ecu, or a good power supply from the battery if they have the ignitors etc built into them.

so, the way I see it at the moment (and I am still investigating so please feel free to chime in with more, alternative info!) is that CDI is a bit of a known quantity, as in it will improve your ignition system and help fire the kind of boost/mixtures you will see in a high power engine. however it might not be necessary, as a well specced inductive system will ignite the same mixture. The inductive sytem will be simpler, and considering a good CDI unit is 500-1000 pounds, can be a bit cheaper. But it might be a bit more of a gamble? :2Confused
in my situation, where I am starting from scratch with regard to the engine and electrics, i feel it will be better to plump for an induction system built around some high power inductive coils. the cost i have saved from not using a cdi unit can then go into a more capable ecu to enable me to fully exploit these coils. However if I were working with standard wring loom and say apexi I would probably go for a twin power, and if that wasnt enough then look at a meaty cdi system.
As i say, these are jsut my musings from looking around at my options, I would recomend reading through the link above, and take see what you think.

There is another type of ignition system - which can work with eithe CDI or Inductive types, which feeds a high voltage high current feed to the spark plug electrode, but the voltage isn\'t sufficient to fire it.  It\'s isolated from the ignition by a high voltage diode.
 
The idea is that the stock system creates the spark because it can push a high enough voltage to ionize the fuel/air mix, then the plasma phase of the ignition is fed from the high voltage supply through the diode, since a much lower voltage is required to maintain the \'burn\'.
 
This system is rather like a HID inverter or flourescent tube driver.  It means the requirements for the ignition strike circuit can easily be met by either design, since the strike voltage is just switch off time (inductive) or capacitor voltage (CDI) and the length of spark is as long as you want it to be (settable by an ECU or external igniton control).
 
PROS:
 
Does away with the need for multispark in CDI
Allows plasma phase burn time to be fully controlled
Doesn\'t suffer high RPM dropoff
Can use either Inductive or Capacitive ignition circuit since it\'s only needed to initially fire the spark, not maintain it
 
CONS:
 
More circuitry involved
More complex HT lead setup, means COP (Coil on Plug) can\'t be used
Cost - High voltage blocking diodes are expensive
Dangerous - more HT running around the car engine bay -so care must be taken
 
And before you go flaming me - this is genuine and patented idea - not mine - but I\'ve seen it work in practice - system even has enough energy to create a spark in liquid water !

Quote from: Prof;773200There is another type of ignition system - which can work with eithe CDI or Inductive types, which feeds a high voltage high current feed to the spark plug electrode, but the voltage isn\'t sufficient to fire it.  It\'s isolated from the ignition by a high voltage diode.
 
The idea is that the stock system creates the spark because it can push a high enough voltage to ionize the fuel/air mix, then the plasma phase of the ignition is fed from the high voltage supply through the diode, since a much lower voltage is required to maintain the \'burn\'.
 
This system is rather like a HID inverter or flourescent tube driver.  It means the requirements for the ignition strike circuit can easily be met by either design, since the strike voltage is just switch off time (inductive) or capacitor voltage (CDI) and the length of spark is as long as you want it to be (settable by an ECU or external igniton control).
 
PROS:
 
Does away with the need for multispark in CDI
Allows plasma phase burn time to be fully controlled
Doesn\'t suffer high RPM dropoff
Can use either Inductive or Capacitive ignition circuit since it\'s only needed to initially fire the spark, not maintain it
 
CONS:
 
More circuitry involved
More complex HT lead setup, means COP (Coil on Plug) can\'t be used
Cost - High voltage blocking diodes are expensive
Dangerous - more HT running around the car engine bay -so care must be taken
 
And before you go flaming me - this is genuine and patented idea - not mine - but I\'ve seen it work in practice - system even has enough energy to create a spark in liquid water !

I was waiting for someone to post about this. As stated earlier in the thread I will be using LS3 coils which have the igniter built in, one downside is due to charge time you can\'t run them as wasted spark. So to overcome this Im running the leading wires to each coil and only running a pair of plugs (only leading and no trailing)

In addition to the above I will be using a SparkAmp- Explained above by Prof, uses a high current/low voltage supply to form a plasma arc piggy backing the original spark. it has been supplied by aquapulsar  (http://www.aquapulser.com/performance_ignition/)
I wont know the results of this system for a while as my project is on stand by whilst I move home :Grrr

If anyone wants any information on this system then feel free to email me, its a bit overkill for most application, however can be using with the original wasted spark ignition if you choose. The reason I chose to use it is I like trying new ideas.

Quote from: Prof;773200There is another type of ignition system - which can work with eithe CDI or Inductive types, which feeds a high voltage high current feed to the spark plug electrode, but the voltage isn\'t sufficient to fire it.  It\'s isolated from the ignition by a high voltage diode.
 

are you talking about systems like Aquapulsar (http://www.aquapulser.com/performance_ignition/)?

the demo of this stuff looks amazing, kind of like a little Tesla coil in your combustion chamber.

on some of the blurb it talks about converting more of the suspended fuel, air and water molecules into plasma. it\'d be cool to see one of these systems on a rotary.

^^lol, should\'ve read all the posts in the thread before going for the \'reply\' button :2Rolleyes

Quote from: jackaleks;773225^^lol, should\'ve read all the posts in the thread before going for the \'reply\' button :2Rolleyes

This thread moves so quick at times you\'ve replied before the questions been asked sometimes :Giggle:Giggle

does anyone know the output of the stock system, im sure i read somewhere it was 60mj, can anyone confirm?

This is how Mazda sorted the issue... 3 plugs!

(http://www.fd3s.net/787B/26b_3.jpg)

yes mitch that is how they did it but that is in an NA engine, were talking high boosted and WI engines where the internal pressures actually "blow out" the spark and the mixtures dont ignite properly or not at all.

Quote from: jackaleks;773224are you talking about systems like Aquapulsar (http://www.aquapulser.com/performance_ignition/)?
 
the demo of this stuff looks amazing, kind of like a little Tesla coil in your combustion chamber.
 
on some of the blurb it talks about converting more of the suspended fuel, air and water molecules into plasma. it\'d be cool to see one of these systems on a rotary.

would converting the suspended mixture into plasma not increase they cylinder temperatures really high?
 
as plasma is very hot, well it is on a plasma cutter.
 
i have heard of these plasma ignitions before, im sure there are new cars these days that actually run them, but i may be wrong.

Quote from: Grant Monkhouse;773306would converting the suspended mixture into plasma not increase they cylinder temperatures really high?
 
as plasma is very hot, well it is on a plasma cutter.
 
i have heard of these plasma ignitions before, im sure there are new cars these days that actually run them, but i may be wrong.

your stock ignition is technically still creating plasma, that\'s what  the spark from a plug is. something to do with ionising molecules  suspended between the cathode and electrode so that you get an arc (google Jacob\'s Ladder, i\'m not a physicist so i don\'t really understand it :2Rolleyes).

i have no idea how the Aquapulsar set up works, there\'s some electrical jiggary pokery going on there waaaay beyond my small brain, but it looks cool. Dale\'s made the jump though and hopefully he\'ll get it working!

Quote from: jackaleks;773308i have no idea how the Aquapulsar set up works, there\'s some electrical jiggary pokery going on there waaaay beyond my small brain, but it looks cool. Dale\'s made the jump though and hopefully he\'ll get it working!

Well, concept looks really simple. Stock ignition is used to initiate spark and plasma box feeds high energy DC discharge from capacitor - directly, without stepping up voltage in transformer. It could work really simple, without any additional electronics. Voltage from capacitor is not high enough to initiate spark, but once spark is established, capacitor discharges.
Box probably consists from some DC/AC convertor and voltage is stepped up in transformer to feed capacitor. And high voltage diode for keeping this circuit safe from stock ignition trying to ground the HV pulse somewhere else then it should occur:rollin

Technology is proved and numerously patented, it should work:bandit

Yep - basically works like a flashgun - store high voltage energy in a capacitor bank - the \'air\' gap in the spark plug stops the charge from dissipating, along with a blocking diode to stop it grounding out on the coil secondary.
 
When the spark plug fires, the gas mixture becomes conductive, and the capacitor bank can discharge through the diode into the now conducting spark plug - creating a hotter and more consistent plasma phase.
 
It\'s only the mixture between the contacts and the immediate area that becomes plasma - the rest of the mixture will burn normally, but will be better ignited by the plasma.
 
It doesn\'t need to be capacitors either - you can use a step up generator with sufficient power - it\'s only going to be conducting once the spark is triggered, you just need a way to switch it off.

well ive emailed them, and they are gonna give me a list of whats required and show me how it would be wired in.

from factory since you only have one leading coil does it run in wasted spark?

that would help work out whats needed

The factory leading coil is a wasted spark set up.

well on the plasma front, like people said its not super new technology and i first heard about from japan

okada projects looks interesting, i asked touge distribution to get me some more info on them last year but didnt hear anything back

Quote from: turbotoaster;773466well ive emailed them, and they are gonna give me a list of whats required and show me how it would be wired in.
 
from factory since you only have one leading coil does it run in wasted spark?
 
that would help work out whats needed

Leading is wasted spark, but trailings fire alternately on a single channel - not wasted spark (due to late timing, wasted spark would fire early in a compression cycle if used on trailing).  I was trying to work out what would be needed for this on a rotary - be interesting to see what you get back from them.

Quote from: turbotoaster;773466well ive emailed them, and they are gonna give me a list of whats required and show me how it would be wired in.

from factory since you only have one leading coil does it run in wasted spark?

that would help work out whats needed

If you are running standard coils then you will need to buy the wasted spark unit. From the wiring diagram you will be able to work out which plug is positive and which is a negative spark and wire it accordingly.

Negative spark systems are better as you get a bigger kernel and it\'s hotter. This is why I decided to go with aftermarket coils. So both are negative.

One issue that I also found was that the wasted spark unit from aquapulsar is rated up to  30kv from the coils,  I never actually found out the power of the standard coils as I decided to change them. this will be something you need to investigate.

They supply either the unit itself or as a kit with the leads (built in diode), I went for the kit as the diodes you need are near impossible to get hold of in the UK.

Prof- I\'m only down in Staines if you want to pop along and check out the unit. It\'s quite simple looking, I went for the x40 unit with a pair of wires, the leads they supply are enormous so will require shortening and rebooting.

I do plan to make a write up about the whole thing once I get a chance to install it and hopefully get it all working.

Quote from: rx7boy;773498If you are running standard coils then you will need to buy the wasted spark unit. From the wiring diagram you will be able to work out which plug is positive and which is a negative spark and wire it accordingly.
 
Negative spark systems are better as you get a bigger kernel and it\'s hotter. This is why I decided to go with aftermarket coils. So both are negative.
 
One issue that I also found was that the wasted spark unit from aquapulsar is rated up to 30kv from the coils, I never actually found out the power of the standard coils as I decided to change them. this will be something you need to investigate.
 
They supply either the unit itself or as a kit with the leads (built in diode), I went for the kit as the diodes you need are near impossible to get hold of in the UK.
 
Prof- I\'m only down in Staines if you want to pop along and check out the unit. It\'s quite simple looking, I went for the x40 unit with a pair of wires, the leads they supply are enormous so will require shortening and rebooting.
 
I do plan to make a write up about the whole thing once I get a chance to install it and hopefully get it all working.

I reckon the 30Kv is the max rated value of their blocking diode - so if you run higher ignition voltages than that (some high performance coils or CDI units could do that) then you\'ll need additional blocking diodes in line with the feed from the unit (wired the correct way around ;) )  Stock systems should be fine as they don\'t usually get much higher than that, but a non firing event (mis spark) might have a quite a spikey voltage peak.  Bad ignition circuits don\'t cater for this properly, and the energy stored in the coil has to bully it\'s way back out through the primary and into your igniter - IGBT\'s are ideally suited to this, as you can set a clamping voltage and make the transistor switch on and \'dump\' the stored energy as heat.
 
I quite fancy the idea of using their COP modules, and just designing my own HT supply and simple igniter, since the hard and dangerous part is the circuitry around the HT lead / spark plug and they\'ve safely contained it all into a neat little module ;)

I am a great beliver in the old adage "If it aint broke don\'t fix it".
We have done uprated ignition on rotaries,but in most instances it just is not needed,stock igniton and a twin power will easily cope with 500hp so save money for the fuel you will use enjoying your driving your car.
Regards
Carl

Quote from: HaywardRotary;773545I am a great beliver in the old adage "If it aint broke don\'t fix it".

i guess Felix Wankel was around before people started saying that, or we\'d all be driving some Ford derived engine :p

I have to agree that at 500bhp at the fly , a good working stock ignition system works fine on a FD.

You only need to improve it when you are near 600bhp levels, big boost and WI

Work out your power goals I say first

Quote from: HaywardRotary;773545I am a great beliver in the old adage "If it aint broke don\'t fix it".
We have done uprated ignition on rotaries,but in most instances it just is not needed,stock igniton and a twin power will easily cope with 500hp so save money for the fuel you will use enjoying your driving your car.
Regards
Carl

It\'s quite possible to get better emissions and better fuel economy, which whilst are not something you\'d be overly worried about on a track / drag / drift car or weekend toy - those rare few idiots amongst us who daily drive our rotaries are interested in improving many things that weren\'t done on the original motor so many years ago. The design for my car is mostly from 1985 or indeed pre 1985, with some alterations to the S5 that came in in 1989 - but there\'s been a hell of a lot of innovations in the automotive world - and why not try and retrofit some of this reliability and know how back onto the rotary motor - if it\'s easy to do and worth the while :)
 
I liked the look of this over multispark, as it\'s a more elegant approach to the issue of ignition, and it gives the system more oomph for dropping WI in and upping the boost.

Must be a red letter day Mark, you agreeing with me an all that!

Hi Prof,
I would say from experience that if you were looking at improved fuel consumption then upgrading igniton will not provide that, but decent mapping definitely can especially during cruise and off boost.
Mazda themselves have consistently found that the closer the fuel injectors are moved to the rotor fuel consumption has gone down,this is due mainly to droplets of fuel often being wasted wetting the walls of the inlet manifold and not vapourising before combustion.
At the end of the day the Mazda wankel engine in it\'s present form is certainly never going to be fuel efficient.

HAHA dont get too happy Carl lol I actually mentioned before you even posted on this thread that the stock FD ignition is fine at 450 rear wheel hp (re 10th post on this thread) , so its you agreeing with me lol

:Thumbsup!:wiggle:Giggle:Talking1:2Rolleyes:rolleyes:

Quote from: BlitzBoy;773601HAHA dont get too happy Carl lol I actually mentioned before you even posted on this thread that the stock FD ignition is fine at 450 rear wheel hp (re 10th post on this thread) , so its you agreeing with me lol

:cheers:rollin:Tongue1:D

Quote from: BlitzBoy;773552I have to agree that at 500bhp at the fly , a good working stock ignition system works fine on a FD.
 
You only need to improve it when you are near 600bhp levels, big boost and WI
 
Work out your power goals I say first

which is what i have done, 500fwhp is defiantely looking good for my engine,
 
:Ladys-man Carl:Ladys-man
 
and then hopefully with Carls advice and agreement we can go for more in the future,
 
and hopefully i will persuade Carl to help me tune with copious amounts of water thrown down the engines throat (i know it may not be needed but water is free and racing fuel isnt) and i can build an ignition system that will cope with the WI.
 
Hmmmm 600+HP RX4, now that sounds like a scary idea!! going to need balls of steel and brains of mush to drive that!!:driving:driving:burnout:3gears-rh

I have not ready trough the entire thread but picked up enough.

The stock FD iginition system do work for high boost and high numbers but it will break the engine. Especially if you are running it with a PFC. A freind dynoed 565rwhp with a PFC, stock coils and HKS Twin Power, the engine lasted about 5 000 km before it went boom on the track. Most likely due to ignition problems.

For a EFI system i would not go anything else then with a CDI system for ignition. I have tried alot during the years and had alot of problems.

At the moment i have been running the Autronic 500R CDI with the Crane Cams PS92 coils for 4 years and never had a ignition problem. Im going CDI on my 4 rotor as well for next year, as it\'s eating plugs with the standard bosch coil setup.

I can\'t tell you enough how important it is to have a realy good ignition system for a rotoray engine. The more power and the higher you rev, the better igintion system you need. Esp on turbo engines, as they run quite "rich".

There are several good CDI systems out there that works, but still find something that has been tested and works.

If anyones in need of a leading CDI setup i have a dynatek box adn 2 cdi coils that i no longer need

what do you want for them as i was thinking about buying a CDI kit next week

@12at, I m also interested. Pics and price please.

Mir

Never does ignition blow a rotary engine, the tuner often does though due to ignition breakdown making the AFR\'s seem rich and so they lean it out and then it goes too lean when the engine just needed a better ignition system.
So don\'t blame the engine blowing on poor igntion,it just cannot be the cause unless timing is completely out which is not something caused by weak igntion.
Regards
Carl

Ive made over 580whp @ 26 psi with water injection while using the stock coils and twin power setup.

If your aiming for that kind of power , make sure your coils are up to specs and you will be fine with the hks ignition.
The reason alot of us change is due to looking for over 600whp and/or because we want sequential ignition. That was both my reasons for switching to M&w ignition.

Unfortunately  I don\'t think you can run any sequential ignition because your using a power fc.. (not sure so don\'t quote me on this)

Quote from: Mir;777672@12at, I m also interested. Pics and price please.
 
Mir

 
email me to discuss bo0557 @ gmail.com