Mazda Rotary Club

Moving on with cars (from my bbr turbo 5) and thought it always provides for some good discussion.

at the moment i have.
Back into an Fd, Rx8, 350z

Thoughts please :)

FB, RX4, Repu, Cosmo, Bugeye Cosmo, Rotarise some random mazda truck... loads of possibilities

Could put a 3 rotor turbo or 4 rotor in that FD or RX8!? (Laceys cosmo idea is certainly a top choice as well though!)

You know it makes sence.

If your wanting to get a piston engined car though I\'ve always liked the S15 silvia!

Interesting choices, but definitely needs to be something modern, which rules out most of Lacey\'s choices! Always loved Cosmo\'s after nearly buying Slippers old one when it was imported first by Brian, but i know it would be a whim and something i would grow tired off quickly and probably a money pit too!

S15\'s i really like, but they hold such good money at the moment and can see the a** dropping out of them, probably just as i bought one!

3/4 rotor is a lovely idea, particularly in an Rx8, but the cost of doing it and re sale, is just not a wise option. :)

There is a 13B-RE Cosmo on pistonheads for not much money :) (outweights the extra cost of fuel over another more expensive car) I was looking at a BMW 850CI, yes it uses more fuel, but costs less to buy than another more fuel efficent car, my theory is that the difference in price equates to the extra fuel that the car might use over another car :)

You say new, so what you looking to spend. I think new Mazda 3 MPS is pretty cool 2.3 turbo and awd! Or there are the usual culprits Evo, impreza, supra?

Nissan 370z or gtr. Either of these will be good.

True theory Mitch, but a 13b Cosmo is just well, not a 20b :).

When i say new i mean, newer than fc, fd, something a bit more "modern", its difficult to explain.

Agreed 370z or Gtr are lovely but way out my price bracket! A rx8 or 350z is about where my budget would stretch.

Evo/Imprezza are just a tad too chavy i think these days.

At the moment im leaning towards a 7, as i know what to expect or 350z as its different to going back to rotary! Having said that, i really like the 8\'s, but distinct lack of tuning options is holding me off, or should i say, spending a large amount on new parts as 2nd hand isnt easily available and hitting the 300 ish hp wall!

Could get an RX8 with a 13B-REW in it?

Always an option, however i have read there are complications by all accounts (havent researched thoroughly), being that the rx8 ecu controls a lot of the cars gadgets, including, fly by wire throttle and then theres the cost.

I am led to believe ReWorx have done the swap, but dont like to hassle them with questions as i know they are very busy and im sure once i hear the cost, i would have difficulty justifying it.

Quote from: jetpilot;771632Interesting choices, but definitely needs to be something modern

Mazdaspeed3 MPS - DO IT!!! :Laugh

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/08/2010_MazdaSpeed_3_--_08-25-2009.jpg/800px-2010_MazdaSpeed_3_--_08-25-2009.jpg)


The Mazdaspeed3 features the same turbocharged 2.3-litre DISI MZR (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mazda_MZR_engine) I4 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straight-4) engine from the Mazda6 MPS/Mazdaspeed 6 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mazdaspeed6).  In this application, it produces 263 hp (196 kW) and 280 ft·lbf  (380 N·m) when running on 91 octane gasoline ((R+M)/2). This is routed  through the front wheels rather than the complex all-wheel drive (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All-wheel_drive) system found on the (Mazdaspeed6 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mazdaspeed6)).  The Australian market receives the Mazda3 MPS with the same engine as  the Mazda6 MPS with 190 kW (255 hp) of power. The engine was listed in Ward\'s 10 Best Engines (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ward%27s_10_Best_Engines) for three years straight.^{[URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mazdaspeed3#cite_note-0][1][/URL]}

 A [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GKN]GKN[/URL] limited slip differential (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limited_slip_differential) is standard, along with a six-speed manual transmission (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manual_transmission), anti-lock brakes, traction control and dynamic stability control. No automatic transmission (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_transmission)  option has yet been offered. To limit wheel slip, boost in the first  gear will be limited to produce a maximum of 230 hp (170 kW), boost in  second gear is also limited. The amount of boost reduction is determined  by the gear selection and steering angle. There is no reduction of  boost third or above.

Only really leaves you with the 350 or the Mazda MPS (as above) then, but tuning them to bigger numbers isn\'t cheap either? Could look into a skyline of some description? But good examples are getting rare now.

Edit-I have very limited knowledge on the Mazda 3, might be worth some research.

13B-REW into an RX8 has been done but you lose the fly-by-wire throttle, the DSC and TC and things like the a/c as well (all run from the the PCM).  Apparently it works well though apart from that, mates straight to the gearbox and with a big single turbo it makes it very fast!  Probably an £8-10k conversion at least.  Good if you like whizz-bang turbo power delivery.

Quote from: BenRX;771804But good examples are getting rare now.

This is the case with most decent cars, drifters cliché them and drift them to death until there are none left for people who just want one to drive.

The MPS doesn\'t hold a candle to the RX8 in the bends and if you turn off the electronics it\'s apparently a right old handful.  Great engine though.

Mazda 3 Fail for me thanks :)

Skyline, interesting car and believe it or not, some very cheap well tuned items available, just like the 7\'s, they are worth more in parts these days. I have a friend very experienced with Skybus an he suggested the best model to go for these days is the 33 gts with a single, T78 or similar, massive power and almost bulletproof, however, they look like absolute sh*t compared to 7,s, 8,s etc

Supras, too big and bulky to answer an earlier question.

350z would be the choice if cash wasnt limited, as mentioned, very costly to tune and by all accounts, the younger models have rods with similar structural properties of cheese.

Rx8, very tempting as a long termer

Rx7, can it be beaten, bang for buck and looks, not likely hence why its an option. Im thinking, smooth a*se and Nimbus Grey..............If only it was a little more plush inside :)

Well if it\'s narrowed down to the 7 v 8 debate then there is a big one started by me somewhere which was very interesting, but turned out to be irrelevant as soon as a nice FC3 turned up :p

But it\'s worth a read if your considering one over the other nearly every point is covered and if it\'s not then do some unholy thread revival!

Ive gone down this route (best of both)

FC3S turbo II - 500bhp+ next year - limited miles - 6-23mpg

(http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l49/m1tch_2006/P1010098.jpg)

2003 Volvo V40 sport lux for the daily - 40-65mpg

(http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l49/m1tch_2006/CIMG0400.jpg)

Did someone say shiny? :D

(http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l49/m1tch_2006/CIMG0394.jpg)

Why not a taste of detroit muscle? Thats what i want next.

A big no the FC i am afraid.

Detroit muscle, fun, but with most of them you would find better handling on a swivel chair!

Lets put it this way, if the 8 was as responsive to tuning as the 7, it would be one of them, but really struggling to come to terms with 300hp max,

Exiled Viking / Tony\'s RX-8 is 330bhp

300 is the cheap max and it makes very good use of its power.  It\'s no drag racer but it\'s easy to drive fast.

What about a Stagea? All the performance of a skyline, with the practicality of a Volvo :)

(http://www.monkys.jp/e/img/600DSC50015.jpg)

the way i see this is that you want something that handles well and has huge amounts of tuning options?? out of the cars mentioned above there is only 1 that will do and that is an FD plain and simple, the rx8 maybe great but it just isnt practical to spend so much to make it powerful, when you already have a good base to start with an FD.
 
either buy a cheap one and build it exactly how you want it, a friend of mine just managed to get an FD for £650!! (no i didnt miss any numbers on that price)
 
or buy one someone has built for you, single turbo etc, or one that is ready to be single turbo\'d.

Quote from: Will66;771863300 is the cheap max and it makes very good use of its power.  It\'s no drag racer but it\'s easy to drive fast.

From my recent readings (only read) an exhaust port mod is necessary to help cooling and assist with reliability, petit racing do one.

I wonder how much Tonys 8 cost to get to 330, bet it runs well into the thousands.

I dont think i would go single again to be honest. It had huge grin factor and super quick, but i think a well set up pair of twins would suffice, much more drive able in the real world.

Thanks all, great to have some opinions.

Not being funny, but 330 is a fairly feeble power output in the great scheme of things. Not wishing to disrespect the \'8 community, but you\'re never going to get sensible power out of them as long as they\'re hampered by that stupid sideporting for emissions legislation and ....errrr, actually for no other reason anyone can understand. They look OK, if you lose the silly smiley Pokemon face for an aftermarket bumper, and they handle well, but if you\'ve got power as a criterion look somewhere else. Maybe put an FD engine in an \'8, is that possible? Will the turbo gubbins fit?

Can\'t find it in my heart to condone your other alternative of 350Z, tbh. A car so hideously malformed and bloated that I expect several Nissan stylists were taken out into the parking lot and allowed to expiate the honour of their ancestors through ritual seppuku. I can picture it now; "AAiii!, you have designed the new Z-car to look exactly like a filthy round-eye barbarian Audi TT with a serious cake habit. You must die to salvage the honour of Datsun!"

"But, honourable Boss, we have a plan to save this awful situation.. we shall paint it the same colour as baby shlt and put the headlights on the wrong way up so no one will compare it to the decadent German thing."

Anyway, they\'re shlt. Get any power out of one and as soon as you let the clutch up the stupid thing just goes in a small circle in its own length.

Buy a Monaro, that\'s my vote. No it isnt actually, stop being a big ghey and buy an FD. :rollinHTH :Thumbs-up

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha breathe breathe hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.

I forgot all about manaros!! They\'re awesome. But will cost loads to get more power.

Just get an FD.

OK, Monaro VXR then. TBH, they\'re not madly expensive to power up, after all that engine in various guises has been in anything with horse and cart suspension for the last four ice ages. The early Monaros are becoming quite startlingly cheap, too. Must be the griffin stuck on the front having its usual effect on holding value

(http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g30/curacaosfinest/manifold7.jpg)

If you like the twins then do this, twin tdo5\'s!

Quote from: Nik da Greek;771913OK, Monaro VXR then. TBH, they\'re not madly expensive to power up, after all that engine in various guises has been in anything with horse and cart suspension for the last four ice ages. The early Monaros are becoming quite startlingly cheap, too. Must be the griffin stuck on the front having its usual effect on holding value

Manaros cheap? Where?

I suppose cheap is comparative. Plenty under nine grand, one for sale for 8250 in a showroom down town here. \'S only the price of a reasonable single tubby FD after all, and a hell of a lot newer.

EDIT: I say plenty, obviously there aren\'t plenty in the way that BMW\'s are plentiful, like dogger on every street corner. Quick look on AutoTrader shows 11 for sale, of which four are on or around 9k. So not a terrible average.

Quote from: Nik da Greek;771899Not being funny, but 330 is a fairly feeble power output in the great scheme of things. Not wishing to disrespect the \'8 community, but you\'re never going to get sensible power out of them as long as they\'re hampered by that stupid sideporting for emissions legislation and ....errrr, actually for no other reason anyone can understand. They look OK, if you lose the silly smiley Pokemon face for an aftermarket bumper, and they handle well, but if you\'ve got power as a criterion look somewhere else. Maybe put an FD engine in an \'8, is that possible? Will the turbo gubbins fit?

330 whp is hardly feeble for a road car and considering the expensive you go to in an RX7 to get more it\'s quite reasonably priced, you get to use the standard fuel system and can remap the stock ECU to cope so you retain all the in-built features.  Plus a 300 whp RX8 is a decent proposition as a daily driver, doesn\'t suffer any of the histrionics of ported RX7s in terms of lumpy idle, serious low rev lethargy or have the firework style power delivery of a car running a big single turbo.  As I\'ve already said the 13B-REW has already been fitted into several RX8s but it\'s no small job especially if you want to retain things in the 8 like the air-con or power steering.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder Mr Greek and judging on re sale value of two cars that were released at the same time, the Rx8 is loosing massively compared to the 350z.

Perhaps the Fd is the only option that ticks most boxes. :cheers

If you don\'t like FC\'s (of which i can not understand why not, they\'re beautiful and old skool = cool! :P)  Then it seems you have answered your own question that a twin turbo FD is what your after :)

Ben

p.s. if you\'ve got the money get a monaro though, they\'re rather nice i\'d love one.

Just remembered i was thinking about the last night for some reason. What about the Lexus IS200 (Toyota Altezza) and casually replace the weak powerplant under the bonnet with a 1JZ?

Just an idea. Certainly practical and i belive you can keep all the normal IS features with the swap... Would have no idea on price though, there are a company that specialises in swaps like this but can\'t remember who - There was a IS200 in some jap mag i\'ve got with a toyota V8 in it and they mentioned they do the 1JZ.

Would be amusing at the traffic lights with some unexpecting victims :rollin

(http://image54.webshots.com/154/9/3/82/483690382DFGzaZ_ph.jpg)

Looks kinda mean to :Laugh

Quote from: Will66;771963330 whp is hardly feeble for a road car

It\'s harldy amazing either though, is it? :3Confused A 350Z can\'t be far off that with a filter and exhaust

Quote from: Will66;771963Plus a  300 whp RX8 is a decent proposition as a daily driver, doesn\'t suffer  any of the histrionics of ported RX7s in terms of lumpy idle, serious  low rev lethargy or have the firework style power delivery of a car  running a big single turbo.

I think you must have driven the wrong sort of singles, Will :3Confused My car has none of these things you mention, and makes 100 horsepower more than that. Plus, when it was on stock twins it managed 330 with no fuel system mods at all, no ignition, etc etc, none of the really expensive stuff you mention. If you\'re claiming that the RX-8 is a great road car with minimal tweaking, I\'m with you all the way. If you\'re claiming it\'s a good tuning option, I\'m afraid we might end up with an argument, cos this just simply isn\'t the case. Mazda designed the engine for one thing...emissions legislation, and that\'s all there is to it. Yes, you can overcome the limitations this imposes on tuning it, but you can never overcome the intrinsic limitations of the design.

As to a "reprogrammable" ECU... well, that\'s not quite accurate either, is it? Yes, you can re-flash it but then you could say the same about pretty much any car with the later diagnostic apparatus

Quote from: jetpilot;771978Beauty is in the eye of the beholder Mr Greek and judging on re sale value of two cars that were released at the same time, the Rx8 is loosing massively compared to the 350z.

Yes, I suspect that\'s due as much to the thirst of the rotary and it\'s percieved fragility as much as anything else. All the RX-8s I used to see when they first launched were clearly company cars because they all seemed to clutter up station car parks in the commuter towns. Nowadays I hardly see any. There\'s nothing that hits residuals worse than being the archetypal subsidy car, just ask Vauxhall.

As for beauty being in the eye of the beholder, absolutely. This here beholder thinks they both look silly, so in terms of aesthetics alone I don\'t really care which you buy :rollin

Quote from: jetpilot;771978Perhaps the Fd is the only option that ticks most boxes. :cheers

You know it :D

Quote from: BenRX;771981If you don\'t like FC\'s (of which i can not understand why not, they\'re beautiful and old skool = cool! :P)  Then it seems you have answered your own question that a twin turbo FD is what your after :)

Ben

p.s. if you\'ve got the money get a monaro though, they\'re rather nice i\'d love one.

FC, well, i have been down this conversation road before. Imho after driving and owning the both of them i think the fc\'s are old, archaic, ugly and basic in a direct comparison.

Thats harsh. But each to their own!

Quote from: BenRX;772008Thats harsh. But each to their own!

Its not meant to be harsh buddy, but in a comparison that how i see it!

If i wanted old skool, i think fc\'s look awesome, especially with the gp kit and some sweet rims. I think they are great, i owned one :)

Ahh, no offence taken and fortunately my FC can\'t read haha. But i know what your saying, they are old and i can see many reasons someone would choose an FD over the FC - I frankly can\'t afford an FD and i have some strange concept that the 13B is more reliable than the 13B-REW lump :p

Its funny actually, reading through this thread. I really fancy a change but its very difficult to find a car (same budget) that tops an fd, i know its personal preference and all but goes to show what great cars they are, pound for pound!

Dreams and cash not an issue, i would have a short block triple built and swap it between a 7 & 8 :)

You could buy an s14 - but they\'re ugly as f00k and common as heinz beans.

The Rx8 motor was designed for emissions legislation, that\'s the world we live in, but it\'s a highly useable car and 300 whp is within reach without compromising drivability or much in the way of reliability. Given the number of issues with vacuum controls alone on a set of stock twins, it\'s not exactly bullet proof.  As for single turbos, whilst I\'ve only had a brief drive in one with a claimed 400 hp, on boost it certainly felt that sort of level by my "highly scientific" backside dyno, but the power delivery was such that getting on the power early out of a corner was unsettling which slowed it down. Once straight it was very rapid but was frustrating exiting corners slowly.

Additionally, the RX8 isn\'t significantly compromised by it\'s side exhaust despite the fact it\'s there for emissions. In terms of direct comparison it\'s decisively more powerful than the 6 port EGI RX7 which has peripheral exhaust ports.

Quote from: Will66;772056Additionally, the RX8 isn\'t significantly compromised by it\'s side exhaust despite the fact it\'s there for emissions. In terms of direct comparison it\'s decisively more powerful than the 6 port EGI RX7 which has peripheral exhaust ports.

Well, I guess there is over a decade of developement between the two. I was under the impression the EGI 6-ports still had peripheral exhaust porting anyway? That actuated barrel valve intake nonsense in the extra runners is hardly ideal for airflow anyway is it? Just like a throttle, at anything less than fully open it\'s only ever a detriment to running

So, whats the cost to get an 8 to 300 whp?

About £6k fitted and tuned!

That\'s top whack as well.

So with a decent 8 as a base car your looking at 10k!

In essence twice the price of a 7 with the same if not more hp...... I think my mind is being made up here :)

Which to side with your enthusiasm for 8\'s, is a shame, as i think it would be a great car, but what price do you put on individuality and bucking the trend of the doing a 7.

Then you have the added quirks with selling a tuned 8, is it going to be as popular as a tuned 7? The chances are you will loose a shed load more money on a 8. I reckon if i bought right i reckon i could pretty much sell a 7 say in year for damn near what i paid for it. im sure that wouldnt be the case with an 8.

I will watch this add with great interest

http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/2961256.htm

Quote from: Will66;772113About £6k fitted and tuned!

6 grand!! You could spend half that putting a single turbo on an FD engine and gain more up than the 8, with potential to get even more with a few choice mods. Even using a small gt35 size turbo would generate more hp on an FD than the 8.

FD all the way.

That rx8 your watching is over priced BTW. IMO

My FC with all mods plus the cost of the car should be running more than that for £8k total lol

Quote from: Grant Monkhouse;7721336 grand!! You could spend half that putting a single turbo on an FD engine and gain more up than the 8, with potential to get even more with a few choice mods. Even using a small gt35 size turbo would generate more hp on an FD than the 8.

FD all the way.

That rx8 your watching is over priced BTW. IMO

Without doubt.......

That RX8 was Pettit Racing\'s Demo car.  That\'s the 6k conversion.  It\'s a great bit of kit, feels like the stock car but with more power everywhere!  That\'s £6k tuned and ready to run for that conversion, with the sort of progressive power delivery turbos can only dream of.

Progressive power, pffft who wants it. A big kick up the arse for me thanks. Lol.

Standard ports with a gt35 and smallish sized hotside would be better than a supercharger.

Superchargers belong on hemi\'s not rotaries.

If you want a big hp number for the drag strip then a kick up the arse is fine but it means you\'re either going to run such big rear tyres that you\'ll compromise your acceleration because they\'re so heavy or you\'ll stay away from boost anywhere there\'s a bend because if the turbo spools you\'ll be sideways or spinning your tyres ineffectively, looks good but it\'s not a quick way around a corner.

If you\'re looking for a drag racer, the Renesis engine isn\'t for you.  If you like your fun with corners then an RX8 is damn good option.

Quote from: Will66;772151That RX8 was Pettit Racing\'s Demo car.  That\'s the 6k conversion.  It\'s a great bit of kit, feels like the stock car but with more power everywhere!  That\'s £6k tuned and ready to run for that conversion, with the sort of progressive power delivery turbos can only dream of.

Who did the work on the Petit demo car Will and more so do you think the 12k price tag is justified?

and sorry to say i have to disagree, a gt35r or similar fd would simply leave an 8 for dead, tuned or not on track, corner speed has nothing to do with acceleration, its about how fast you go into the corner and if a driver is putting his boot in through the corner i would seriously doubt his abilities, corner exit would be fine, but if you cant control a single that already should be on boost through the corner, your either in the wrong gear or have extraordinary skills. :)

When the work was done on that 8 it was by a company called Trimar in North London, there was some legal issues and they\'re now relocated to Hertfordshire and called Bespoke Performance, essentially they\'re Pettit Racing\'s UK outlet as well as being a very good performance car garage.  At £12k that car\'s a bit steep, by about £4k by my estimation.

As for being left for dead on track by a tuned 7.

Video shot from my RX8 at Castle Combe earlier this year.

Nice driving:Thumbs-up However not really a true comparison as unless im mistaken all the 7,s you passed slowed down and let you past:D

Will i love your enthusiasm about the 8\'s, i really do, but posting vids of overtaking random fd\'s with by looks of it, even more random drivers doesnt impress me, in fact, it smacks of some kind of inferiority complex especially with all your other 8 v 7 comments , i am sure just as many people could post footage of fd\'s overtaking 8\'s. If i had a camcorder i could post videos of me overtaking 430\'s,  911\'s, tvr\'s, m3\'s, m5\'s, elises, exiges, the list goes and that was with a standard twin set up, as you well know, a decent driver will compensate for hp all day long.

That is partially my point although I am not that great a driver.  Power is only part of the equation for performance and whilst it\'s nice.

As for the inferiority complex, personally I don\'t have one.  If I was seeking power at the expense of all else I\'d have a different car.

Well back to the point, would love an 8, just a shame its not good for another 50 or so hp and it would be devastating, not just great :)

If you found one with a dying motor and had it rebuilt you could get it ported.  Hayward Rotary have done it and reckon on an extra 40 bhp or so!  That\'s only on the secondary and tertiary ports as well so it doesn\'t lose much in economy either!

Im happy with power up the top end with a larger turbo, car will drive off boost and use less fuel around town :)

Quote from: jetpilot;772121I will watch this add with great interest

http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/2961256.htm

Jesus :eek: Poor car.

Three words... PLEASE lower it :Hammer

That\'s a demo car!? Demonstrating what exactly, how badly you can mismatch wheels and ride height to application :confused:

The quality of the pictures is very poor as well for a demo car you\'d have expected non-pixely pictures surely. Bet its kinda cool though, but i\'m with Nik it needs slamming on its arse!

Quote from: Nik da Greek;772224Jesus :eek: Poor car.

Three words... PLEASE lower it :Hammer

That\'s a demo car!? Demonstrating what exactly, how badly you can mismatch wheels and ride height to application :confused:

I think there are either 2 stories with that car, a) the current owner absolutely had his pants pulled down when he bought it as a demo car and is clinging to a high sale value to re coup his losses or b) someones chancing their arm that someone is foolish enough to pay way over the odds

I can believe anyone would seriously think its worth £12k