My plan for a half bridge on non sequential twins is going ahead and i need to get together some parts
bearing in mind that after this will be getting upgraded to a single turbo so i wanna set the car up ready just to bolt the turbo kit on and go for mapping
the parts that iv thought i need so far is this:
Uprated fuel pump (Walrbo or Bosch)
Uprated injectors both primary and secondary (which sizes)
Ally Secondray fuel rail
Fuel pressure regulator
HKS Twin Spark or similar (sugestions)
Greddy Elbow
Idler pulley from DM motorsport for water pump removal (will this be in the way on conversion to single?)
Apexi ECU (already have)
Free flowing exhaust system (already have)
Boost controller (any ideas which one? Prof spec 2?)
Bigger intercooler (already have Panspeed one)
Bigger Radiator (preferably KOYO)
Larger downpipe
At the moment this is all i can think of at the moment but if there is anything iv forgotten then please tell me,
Also suggestions for injector sizes for both primary and secondary would be very helpful and also what parts to get
Cheers
Kris
You can either go for 550 or 850 primaries depending on what you want. I opted for 550\'s and 1680 secondaries with Atomic Rex primary and secondary fuel rails along with an Aeromotive FPR. I went with a Bosch 044 in tank pump and have had the constant 12v fuel pump mod done.
Depending on turbo size you may not be able to fit the idler pulley in that space, i know with my T51 it was a no go so i went with the oversized pulleys for the water pump and alt to stop the belt slip at high revs.
Greddy Profec Spec II is pretty much all you need and has very good reviews
Uprated clutch?
Id look into getting some bigger brakes on the front to stop the thing, i know thats on my list when i get back off tour.
Hope this helps answer some of your questions
Oh Crap didnt even think about the uprated clutch but that will be done when the engine is out any suggestions on one that is drivable on the street aswell as being able to handle the higher power levels
on the brakes side of things i have plans for them already just forgot to it up on there
also the pulley kit you mentioned is that theone that dragon makes? and does it stop the belt from slipping? iv seen the way the belt sits and thats what made me want the idler pulley but if it wont fit with a single then it will have to be a pulley kit,
550/850cc Primarys i thought would have been to small for the application(im not in the know when it comes to injectors)
All this is guna get done when i get back from tour aswell lol
Kris
If u needed kg part fuel rail and 1680 kg parts injectors, do leme know.. I have one set available and currently for sale in parts for sale section. Cheers
Syed
Quote from: FD3S Efini;751744Oh Crap didnt even think about the uprated clutch but that will be done when the engine is out any suggestions on one that is drivable on the street aswell as being able to handle the higher power levels
on the brakes side of things i have plans for them already just forgot to it up on there
also the pulley kit you mentioned is that theone that dragon makes? and does it stop the belt from slipping? iv seen the way the belt sits and thats what made me want the idler pulley but if it wont fit with a single then it will have to be a pulley kit,
550/850cc Primarys i thought would have been to small for the application(im not in the know when it comes to injectors)
All this is guna get done when i get back from tour aswell lol
Kris
Os Giken are pricey but second hand are pretty good from what ive heard. Exedy also pretty good.
Yeh Dragon sell the over sized kit but so do many others.
550/1680 are good for 450+ i believe Bramble was running this setup on his.
Haha ive not got long left to push till the end of my tour and ive spent the money in my head already, stay safe till the end of yours.
I would also recoment 550/1680s as it keeps the low down idle fueling fine, but you have plenty of fuel when you need it :)
So the primary injectors can be 550s are the primarys one really useful during idle? And if I upgraded them to 850s what effect would this have?
Cheers
Kris
The secondary injectors aren\'t used until about 5psi, if you go too big on the primaries then you can\'t get the duty cycle down enough to be able to inject the small volume of fuel that is needed. Some people do upgrade and run 850s all round, but most go with the 550/1680 setup or indeed a 550/850 setup
whos doing the port job??
i run 850 and 1600 on my T51, if you want a look or chat give me a call 07709136667
Porter has not been finalised just yet
but all build details will be put up once all ideas are finalised
When im in the area dave i will have to pop in and have a butchers
Kris
OK iv decided to added water injection to the list but need to know some good makes and companies that supply them if anyone knows any
thanks in advance
Kris
Quote from: FD3S Efini;752463OK iv decided to added water injection to the list but need to know some good makes and companies that supply them if anyone knows any
thanks in advance
Kris
Aquamist or devilsown
Quote from: FD3S Efini;752456Porter has not been finalised just yet
but all build details will be put up once all ideas are finalised
When im in the area dave i will have to pop in and have a butchers
Kris
Be sure to choose your porter with care..
the original porter of my first engine decided to trim one rotor housing for the bridge and not the other one - kinda school boy error but again didnt feel the need to tell me either..
ive heard JayDee is good.. The bridge is only for noise its been proven that a good large extend port can make the same hp without the noise..
A bridge will ultimately give you a wider powerband then a streetport and possibly spool a turbo slightly quicker
I tend to disagree when i know of a certain engine builder who makes regularly between 5-700hp on pump with large extend on a 13b
If they are built and tuned right they arent needed.
:2Confused
I guess Ross@Dragon and Chris Impey@RxMotors didnt need to go Full bridge to go low 9s and 8s, I suppose all those Ozzies,Kiwis in the 8s and Puerta Ricans can chuck their bridgeports in the bin and can go back to streetports
Quote from: BlitzBoy;752611:2Confused
I guess Ross@Dragon and Chris Impey@RxMotors didnt need to go Full bridge to go low 9s and 8s, I suppose all those Ozzies,Kiwis in the 8s and Puerta Ricans can chuck their bridgeports in the bin and can go back to streetports
Correct i know of plenty of cars in aus that run large extend ports and run 8.30s.
As i said if done right and tuned right its not needed. unless you want the brap noise..
And if he is going to get someone to port the motor make sure its done properly and not half @ssed like mine was.
Quote from: 12at;752616Correct i know of plenty of cars in aus that run large extend ports and run 8.30s.
I assume we are talking 13Bs, could you name those race cars would be interested to have a look at their setup.
Been talking to a few guys in Oz about their bridgeport setups on their drag cars seems they swear by them.
Talking from my own experiance, like for like same boost same turbo I picked up 30 rwhp and approx 400 rpm earlier spool from going from street port to half bridge port
As Blitzen said all the sub 9-sec Rotary drag cars are running Bridgeports.
Go you tube Zoom Magazine "Project Racer" or GEO13B or look for s2bp videos if you really want..
i made a statement that bridge ports arent the be all when a proper setup extend port can produce the same, at the end of the day if you want the brap noise then go a bridge..
From my experience like i stated if you get a bridge done make sure its done right. Its just like alot of the engines here in the UK arent dowelled because its not neccessary - thats another whole topic!
A extended streetport may be able able to produce the same HP as a full bridge port at much higher boost levels if like for like turbos are used. But at the same boost levels a bridgeport will produce more power on the same turbo
Pros for Street port
better mpg,better idle, not loud
Pros for bridge
better spool, more power , bigger power band, cons loud, s....ty mpg
For a race car full bridge all the way in my eyes, if its street use and you hate your car being loud streetport
To quote Enzo who holds the world rotary IRS record in the 8s ...the power equation is simple... PP > Semi PP > bridge > streetport
THis thread can run and run, but its be done to death with arguments on both sides of the fence on the rx7club forum link here , be warned massive thread
http://www.rx7club.com/showthread.php?t=629931&highlight=bridge+overrated&page=1
btw
Ross@Dragon with his 9.1 second car drag car , his engine was never dowelled
Very interesting debate but I agree with what blitz is saying,
Admittedly I do like the heap heap sound but I\'m setting the car up for the future when I bolt on a single turbo kit on it and I personally think this is the way forward for me and the car
Kris
Whether it be a PP, bridge, Street or Stock PORTS, at the end of the day what matters the most is, what the actual owner of the car wants. Everyone, above, have spoken from their experience so I thought I can make a little input of my experience.
1 PP
1.1 Semi PP
2 Bridge Port
2.2 Half Bridge
3 Extended Street Port
3.3 Street Port
In my opinion, if you want a pure race car, then PP is all the way and there are several reasons, but it must be noted that with PP, the Engine life is reduced substantially... So its the call of the owner, what he really cares about-the life of the engine or pure fast car.
On the other hand, if you want a street car including a race car then you need a Street port.
I personally don\'t agree with Half bridge, Semi PP and extended street port business. All the aforementioned terms are confusing and also money making exercise-off course for the porters.
I would like to know the "power production difference" between "Extended Street port" compared with a mild Street Port i.e. Pineapple Racing Street port. I am just not convinced that, a normal street port will not attain the same power out put of an Extended Street port. Little bit of mapping and raising boost on the turbos will eventually achieve what an Extended Street port is producing. So why Extended then????
The above principle also applies to the other form of ports mentioned in the 2nd paragraph (above).
Moral of the Story.
PP
Bridge
Street
and thats it...terms before those ports are just not needed..believe me i have done a lot of research and I can say that I didn\'t find much of a difference. Pete (Rice Racing) has produced some figures/evidence and if you read those figures, you would not even want to port at all :)
No disrespect to anyone, just thought I should share what I think about porting..
Syed
Quote from: Mir;753049I personally don\'t agree with Half bridge, Semi PP and extended street port business. All the aforementioned terms are confusing and also money making exercise-off course for the porters.
hmmmm Really you dont agree with Semi PP, hmmm you do realise the fastest 13Bs in the world including the 13B record holder run Semi PP 13B engines , high 6 second pass.
How can you not agree on something you have never did yourself Syed. In my own experiance I have run a street port and Half bridgeport and I personally know the difference and driven both and there is a difference trust me on this one.
And one tuners porting is different to another tuners porting, you can change the shape, volume ,closing and opening times. So this whole discussion is quite moot and in most instances its like comparing apples to oranges.
Another comment you made , that the life of PP engine is reduced substanially, this does not make sense, the port is no where near the water jacket like a J Port is and hence more likely to fail out of the two, I know cars with PP ports around the world and they havent been stripped down in years, PP ports have to be reliable as they mostly used in NA form in long races eg Le Mans 24Hrs, GT series etc etc
Surely the only real reason Mazda have consistently moved away from PP is for emissions, and frankly only the utterly ghey give a monkeys about that? The renesis is only full side ported to fudge it through emissions nazism, and even then it only just managed to squeak through at the cost of mad inefficienc and reduced power levels. Overlap FTW :D
J-ports and mega bridge are just a grenade with the pin out, for engines with operational lifespans measuered in minutes not years
Or am I talking borrocks. Again :o
I think semi pps are underrated, there\'s a build thread on rx7club where I read an na 3rotor, revving to 10,000 rpm is producing 450+ rwhp. Running semi pps which give the benefit to supply the engine with more air at the top end. The side ports are mildly ported. It give the car more power over more of a range.
I\'m sure blitz will have seen the thread.
Although they have built the car as a race car it is still proof that semi pps work well, this guy is even producing more hp than a full pp setup, imagine the possibilities if a couple of turbos were thrown on there?!
I think as blitz mentioned before, if you want a street car. Street port is the way to go. If you want noise and power you must bigger on ports. And honestly if you have a rotary and don\'t want it to brap away you should go buy something else.
My overlarge STreet port braps when I start it on cold days but just doesn\'t do it once warm, one of the reasons my currently being built engine is a full bridge!
Read this http://m.rx7club.com/showthread.php?t=937570 semi pps kick arse.
I hate my full bridge. The noise is ridiculous and it annoys all my neighbours. If you intend to drive it on a regular basis I would go for a street port
Perversely, the only reason I\'d entertain a full bridge is because it would make ridiculous noise and annoy my neighbours :Giggle
Immaiming to have to whole are where I live annoyed with the sound my car will make. Then even more when the trans am and mustang are completed. V8s and open headers?! Loads of noise! Hahahahahaha
Quote from: BlitzBoy;753127hmmmm Really you dont agree with Semi PP, hmmm you do realise the fastest 13Bs in the world including the 13B record holder run Semi PP 13B engines , high 6 second pass.
How can you not agree on something you have never did yourself Syed. In my own experiance I have run a street port and Half bridgeport and I personally know the difference and driven both and there is a difference trust me on this one.
And one tuners porting is different to another tuners porting, you can change the shape, volume ,closing and opening times. So this whole discussion is quite moot and in most instances its like comparing apples to oranges.
Another comment you made , that the life of PP engine is reduced substanially, this does not make sense, the port is no where near the water jacket like a J Port is and hence more likely to fail out of the two, I know cars with PP ports around the world and they havent been stripped down in years, PP ports have to be reliable as they mostly used in NA form in long races eg Le Mans 24Hrs, GT series etc etc
No disrespect Blitzen, I understand your experience with rotaries and further confirm that probably you have had more experience with rotaries than I :god, but I am only saying what I have read and discussed with the reputed rotary mechanics. For example (I hope you know) Gabby Skern, (Mapper of the Fastest Two rotary 6.97, driven by Eddie Collen), he graduated in motorsports tunning. He agrees with me that PP does reduce the life span of the Engine.
You could refer to the following links and you would offcourse see the pros and cons of various ports but you would see it vividly that PP\'s con is, it reduces the life span of the engine.
http://www.turborx7.com/portingpictures.htm
http://www.rotaryengineillustrated.com/porting/peripheral-port-14.html
As mentioned above, I am just airing what I know. I am open to change and if there are evidences available which suggest otherwise, I would change my approach. I believe this club is designed for sharing experiences, so plz do share it with us.
I hope I have not offended anyone in any shap or form.
Syed
Read this, and then tell me WHY? you need a bridge or peripheral port :Typing Remember this is relevant as we are talking real road cars! (you will see a proper real back to back comparison against a VERY LOUD semi race car run on road (see video and data) compared to a legal well thought out set up that is quiet, efficient, powerful and FAST (RICESP V\'s ND4SPD) detailed below and in various links, report is near bottom of this post.... VBOX3i does not lie.
DO NOT port your engine unless you want to go slower and hate life, your car, and yourself for making a great engine garbage in a street car application.
Link > to proper sized pics n .... > http://www.rotarycarclub.com/rotary_forum/showthread.php?t=13776
Original post:
Turbo Rotary Exhaust Systems *Road cars*
I\'ll contribute with a related item (topic above).
http://www.smb.net.au/products.htm (Full RX7 systems and individual components, race tested! in real endurance races for rotaries, not hobby hacks! or private attempts but full factory backing world beating efforts!)
I have been running and testing SMB (Special Mens Business) for about 6 years now. This company (Walker Manufacturing) made the original SP specification exhaust for the race RX7\'s which dominated the worlds best manufacturers in the ultimate production version of the FD3S (Mazda RX7SP).
http://www.walkerman.com.au/
(http://www.smb.net.au/images/certificate1.jpg)
http://www.smb.net.au/mazdarx7certificate.htm
I have been doing long term durability and power testing on a full single turbo "ultimate street system" that is fully road compliant, for noise level and emissions better than OEM levels. The parts are featured below (see std of quality and performance.
Full catalyst and middle muffler.
TEST VEHICLE SET UP (RICESP)
(http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/9753/img2502cdisystem.jpg)
Sensor arrangement (turbine pressure, turbine speed, exhaust pressure, AFR, EGT each rotor to name a few parameters, real time power, velocity and time to back it up)
(http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/4926/shield1w.jpg)
(http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/1803/shield2.jpg)
(RR turbine pipe, WG legal, SMB supplied flanges and bends)
(http://img188.imageshack.us/img188/438/wgpipe4.jpg)
Exhaust specifications 3.5", race quality (power wise) Catalyst (Performance Weaponry, another business arm of Walker/SMB), SMB 3.5" middle muffler, SMB pipe work, SMB rear SP specification rear muffler, all in 3.5" diameter and internals.
Here is pics of new super high flow cat, and picture of std 4" metal substrate cat.
To give you an idea I have measured 238rwkw on the std MS cat and no cat at all yielded 235rwkw! at same boost pressure.
The new version is for 450rwkw region! has basically the same flow as 3.5" straight pipe in flow testing.
(http://img30.imageshack.us/img30/2333/img1315smallscat.jpg)
(http://img147.imageshack.us/img147/5960/img1317smallscat.jpg)
(http://img147.imageshack.us/img147/2981/img1318smallscat.jpg)
(http://img188.imageshack.us/img188/9497/img1319smallscat.jpg)
(http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/8950/img1321smallscat.jpg)
(http://www.rotarycarclub.com/rotary_forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=10109&stc=1&d=1301468711)
(http://img683.imageshack.us/img683/8730/img2162111.jpg)
VBOX3i and RR file test report set up 100kmh to 200kmh in 7.5 seconds, note better than 1:1 exhaust pressure on a full catalyst system, see video for noise level (quiet and nice sounding) this is good tuning parts :coolgleamA:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqvaMTJZn8k (video)
(http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/930/100kmto200km100kmto200k.jpg)
Air Strip testing 100kmh to 200kmh acceleration and power logging
(http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/5983/airstrip.jpg)
Comparison to another FULL SMB muffler equipped vehicle (ND4SPD Capella)
To give this comparison test some context:
RICESP (stock std 13B-REW engine, full catalyst exhaust, T04 type turbo, plumb back waste gate, small standard inter cooler 1310kg)
*fully compliant genuine road car*
ND4SPD (Cosmo 13B, full bridge port, T51 type turbo charger, large front mounted inter cooler, gutted exhaust, open waste gate pipe 1250kg)
*quasi race car!*
I did some very interesting comparisons to ND4SPD (Mazda Capella I tuned with RRWEP110 WI) V\'s RICESP via the immense analysis power of the VBOX :)
I\'ll list up some comparison results: About the total FALLACY of " typical dyno sheets"! v\'s real world power and times taken for vehicles to actually do "work" with known levels of weight/mass!!!
This car makes on a dynohomodynamics ~390rwkw on 19psi boost (full bridge port & T51 turbo 1250kg as run at race track) where we got these recordings. You will see RICESP at 1310kg run weight is just as powerful (real rwkw! power as measured by me via VBOX!) and its just as fast in peak power band too (what really matters at the end of the day rather than poofter dyno sheet comparisons)
This report is of ND4SPD in its peak power band (6000rpm to 8200rpm) = 110kph to 150kph in 3rd gear on 19psi boost (VBOX measure = ~310rwkw owner has sheets of 380 to 390rwkw on homo dynamics guess machine)
ND4SPD = 110kmh to 150kmh = 2.07 seconds
(http://www.rotarycarclub.com/rotary_forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=9957&stc=1&d=1300414313)
This report shows RICESP and the first one is a FC RX7 fitted with a bridge port 13B running 15psi boost and a GT35 turbo lol (you can see I am twice as fast as it lol 4.43 seconds V\'s 2.06 seconds!) This car apparently makes 270rwkw dynohomodynaimcs @ 16psi boost LOL! You can see these dyno figures are not worth ....ing on in the REAL WORLD! and are vastly overstated from what the cars actually makes when you apply real physics to them!!!
(http://www.rotarycarclub.com/rotary_forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=9956&stc=1&d=1300414015)
And the other result table is at full boost when I tuned it (ND4SPD) on road just before setting national dyno record http://www.riceracing.com.au/water-injection.htm < *read customer testimonial* (which to this day still stands!) for the only ever 13B rotary to lay down 3 back to back power runs of this level and still be able to drive home :) on pump petrol :)
Boost, EGT, RPM, AFR sensors fitted in this tuning session.
RICESP = 110kmh to 150kmh = 2.06 seconds
(http://www.rotarycarclub.com/rotary_forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=9958&stc=1&d=1300414770)
My RX7 is pretty quick I think you will all agree :) and this is still not sharing the current state of high power tune :) *I\'ll save that for another day*
Quote from: Jit;753169I hate my full bridge. The noise is ridiculous and it annoys all my neighbours. If you intend to drive it on a regular basis I would go for a street port
Any porting will make the car SLOWER over a stock standard port :3gears-lh
to add insult to injury it will be noisier, less efficient, use much more fuel, have a narrower power band, lack mid range power, be totally useless behind a normal manual syncromesh gear box, be adversely effected by any normal exhaust system (lower in power, choke on itself).
You will have a brap brap brap idle though :Hammer and that to some is more important than a car that works properly :o so each to their own :rollin
Quote from: Kash_;752600A bridge will ultimately give you a wider powerband then a streetport and possibly spool a turbo slightly quicker
:rollin
BS ! on the wider power band, its actually the OPPOSITE
Quote from: FD3S Efini;752463OK iv decided to added water injection to the list but need to know some good makes and companies that supply them if anyone knows any
thanks in advance
Kris
Again > rad original links here for full size. http://www.rotarycarclub.com/rotary_forum/showthread.php?t=13776
Here it is for you to read here along with others, no hype or BS just real results to an order of detail NO OTHER PRETENDERS can muster nor ever will :Hammer
For my Water Injection Advice (as copied the world over but never replicated!) read the following:
(http://img691.imageshack.us/img691/6094/img1571waterspray.jpg)
VIDEO in action (RRWEP110 Water Injection system) > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Lizxy3XIY8
Here > (how to do it) http://www.aquamist.co.uk/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=1590&page=6 (post #51 onwards)
History behind the system I pioneered & developed *over the last 15 years*! along with tuning advice (copied by MANY! word for word, product for product!, setting by setting!), again more real proof than anyone else pretending to know about this for rotaries.What it does > (real records! NOT CLAIMS LIKE OTHERS!) http://www.riceracing.com.au/
http://www.riceracing.com.au/water-injection.htm
Not one fictional power claim, but real cars, real customers, real records under controlled repeatable conditions, unmatched by anyone (discounting fictional claims and posts!)
Quote from: Mir;753049Whether it be a PP, bridge, Street or Stock PORTS, at the end of the day what matters the most is, what the actual owner of the car wants. Everyone, above, have spoken from their experience so I thought I can make a little input of my experience.
1 PP
1.1 Semi PP
2 Bridge Port
2.2 Half Bridge
3 Extended Street Port
3.3 Street Port
In my opinion, if you want a pure race car, then PP is all the way and there are several reasons, but it must be noted that with PP, the Engine life is reduced substantially... So its the call of the owner, what he really cares about-the life of the engine or pure fast car.
On the other hand, if you want a street car including a race car then you need a Street port.
I personally don\'t agree with Half bridge, Semi PP and extended street port business. All the aforementioned terms are confusing and also money making exercise-off course for the porters.
I would like to know the "power production difference" between "Extended Street port" compared with a mild Street Port i.e. Pineapple Racing Street port. I am just not convinced that, a normal street port will not attain the same power out put of an Extended Street port. Little bit of mapping and raising boost on the turbos will eventually achieve what an Extended Street port is producing. So why Extended then????
The above principle also applies to the other form of ports mentioned in the 2nd paragraph (above).
Moral of the Story.
PP
Bridge
Street
and thats it...terms before those ports are just not needed..believe me i have done a lot of research and I can say that I didn\'t find much of a difference. Pete (Rice Racing) has produced some figures/evidence and if you read those figures, you would not even want to port at all :)
No disrespect to anyone, just thought I should share what I think about porting..
Syed
Thanks Syed,
I posted it all up for people to read some real evidence on this subject and topic, I am the only person in the world who concerns themselves with REAL ROAD GOING ROTARIES and making the FASTEST ONES IN THE WORLD. I have been doing this for years n years, experimenting with all types of engines and porting styles, turbo systems, you name it I have f7cked around with it. I also believe in doing legitimate tests, stuff that anyone can replicate and there is no qualification or excuse, any customer or enthusiast can go repeat the exact same things.
I know what is fast and what is not, and for a street car better than anyone else in the world, if you are trying to compare drag cars or some other rubbish then you are living in a dream world and passing on just flat out BAD ADVICE to people period.
If you want to talk drag cars then no problem I\'m happy to put up information on those as well that run no sort of PP or semi PP or any other style of "magic port" that does 6\'s n sh7t.....
The porting on a rotary motor is the most over rated and hyped up area known to man, next to adding extra dowels or studs kits LOL!!! :Hammer Totally irrelevant money making trash from mechanics who are trying to generate some more income to pay their rent @ the end of the day or line their own or their pushers (suppliers pockets) all the while selling you sh7t you DO NOT NEED. :rollin
Some will get their panties in a knot over my posts, too bad, when you can post up some legitimate test as applicable to real road going rotaries feel free to enter the debate :wave
What I love about your posts Rice, is your total humility, and openness to the possiblity that someone else may have a differing opinion, as opposed to just shouting them down. :)
Quote from: SiH;753262What I love about your posts Rice, is your total humility, and openness to the possiblity that someone else may have a differing opinion, as opposed to just shouting them down. :)
I\'m as open as Paris Hilton\'s anal cavity, and as humble as Charlie Sheen. :Ladys-man
What is important is the legitimate testing data, not the text used to foster relationships or garner support from people I don\'t even know :Hammer
Like all things in life, if you can prove it then do so :Talking1 is cheap, I\'d love to see someone go to 1/100th of the effort I go to and would be gagging with excitement if anyone could prove me wrong. :mmmm It\'s easy to do, just post up some legitimate testing information that can be replicated by anyone else in the world. We will all be waiting (not with baited breath though), cause some of us will keep on working and leading the way so others can copy and repeat the wisdom and call it their own :Giggle
WINNING :King
Quote from: RICE RACING;753256:rollin
BS ! on the wider power band, its actually the OPPOSITE
And BS to your statement haha :Thumbs-up, on my dyno plots from street to half bridge, I picked an extra 500 rpm of powerband going to half bridge, but as I know you hate dynos, I also picked up an extra 5 mph on my terminal speed on the quarter. But also you like rolling times as well, 60mph to 120mph in 6.5 seconds from 7.5
yes correct on bridge porting eating more fuel and being louder and not for everyone for the street. No one is disputing that point, but on the power point, bigger better shape ports let more air in, more air more fuel equals more power
I just wrote amhuge reply with lots of questions and the damn site loggedme out!
In short I agree with blitz, more in surely equals more out?
I will try post my larger reply again later but iv got a garage to paint first.
Love this thread :Thumbsup!
At the end of the day more air and more fuel gets more power.
If you\'re doing it on stock ports by using more boost and WI to keep the bogey man at bay fine.
If you\'re porting and using the lower boost of a lazier running larger turbo, that\'s also fine.
Imagine doing both - you would surely make MORE power. So the comment you make about porting being gay yada yada is not a like for like comparison.
To do a proper test - setup 2 engines with identical setups except porting, with IDENTICAL TURBOS, WI and BOOST levels and see which one has the power where.
I suspect the unported engine would score lower down the rev range, but ultimately the bigger breathing ported engine would take the wee wee later on....
If this wasn\'t the case why the hell did Mazda go with PP on their LeMans car - or are you calling the engine designer (and I suspect the most experienced of all and having access to shed loads more stuff to measure engines with than any of us could lay claim to) gay ?
Since I don\'t have the where with all to make this test, perhaps you can ? :)
Cheers prof you just saved me a lot of typing!!
Like for like can only be a true comparison. There\'s no point comparing Anne fine that can rev to 10,000 rpm and one that only goes to 8,000 rpm even with the same turbo.
To prove the power if ports and turbo the only solution is to get 4 cars, standard port, street port, BP and PP. all with the same fuel capabilities and turbo etc. However I believe that the turbo choice would be a critical factor as getting a turbo that works well on all these applications would be impossibleto gain the best from the engine.
I Would personally assume that anything smaller than a GT 42 on a PP would be too small?
And putting one of these on the standard ported engine would be stupid, yes you could change the AR but the the turbos aren\'t identical are they?
Whether your looking at a street car or drag car, the setup you choose has to match your application.
Standard and street port for the street. BP for the street track/strip and PP for everything as PP\'s sound the best in my eyes and if it sounds the best then they must be the best? Lol
If you boys take the time to look at the info I supplied you :Thumbs-up you will see that on the same rpm, boost, gearing a stock ported motor makes a ton load more power @ 5700rpm
:3gears-lh
I put down the challenge to ANYONE to show me a bridge or PP that makes more power than a stock std ported 13B-REW :D
Average power on a stock part is far superior than a bridge port or a peripheral port, boost schmoost ! it makes no difference to how much is utilized in the chamber net air flow does not equal net horsepower, especially if a fair portion of it is going out the exhaust :Hammer
And again I also say you put any kind of an exhaust system behind a ported engine and you watch even its net air flow suck the big sausage :2Confused
I ran Peripheral Ports for over 7 years in a road car, I know a thing or two about them, also have run bridge, full bridge, J Bridge, and semi peripheral ports as well :King
Show me how your BP or PP turbo can accelerate a car then we can compare penis size :Ladys-man
Peripheral Ports are actually the WORST you can choose, they are the narrowest in power range and most effected by exhaust recirculation, are the loudest, and most effective at converting fuel energy into MOSTLY NOISE and HEAT .................... and a very small portion into power :Hammer
interesting...very interesting reading all this. I always thought the street ported motor (if tuned and ported right) was more then enough for a good 450bhp on a road going car. :yes
some good info provided by Rice here. Thanks:Thumbsup!
Quote from: RICE RACING;753297Peripheral Ports are actually the WORST you can choose, they are the narrowest in power range and most effected by exhaust recirculation, are the loudest, and most effective at converting fuel energy into MOSTLY NOISE and HEAT .................... and a very small portion into power :Hammer
Yes I agree but come on, the noise, the eargasm of noise!!!
Most people don\'t go to watch drag racing because the cars are fast, it\'s the v8 noise. I have seen an electric drag car run around the 8 second mark. Really fast and impressive engineering skills but it sounded like dog mess!
If racing went to electric no one would watch it u less they played car sounds over the tannoy!
Personally I can\'t call myself a rotary enthusiast until I have owned a PP turbo motor and a 20B!
Quote from: BlitzBoy;753276And BS to your statement haha :Thumbs-up, on my dyno plots from street to half bridge, I picked an extra 500 rpm of powerband going to half bridge, but as I know you hate dynos, I also picked up an extra 5 mph on my terminal speed on the quarter. But also you like rolling times as well, 60mph to 120mph in 6.5 seconds from 7.5
yes correct on bridge porting eating more fuel and being louder and not for everyone for the street. No one is disputing that point, but on the power point, bigger better shape ports let more air in, more air more fuel equals more power
A street port looses allot of mid range power over a stock port, so a bridge may help you out there :Thumbsup!
Make no mistake what I am talking about here is that ANY level of porting is inferior in a street application when using an exhaust system. And I can show you many a race car that makes the same power on stock ports as it will on all variants of "race porting" but with none of the negatives (and this is with OPEN PIPE exiting out back of the front wheel!).
Its a big fallacy that porting helps, it in many many cases does nothing except make the engine far more intolerant to various settings like exhaust, turbine, and ign timing. And it totally ruins any legitimate street car claims, which is not some peoples concern but its worth stating as a fact.
As I said I\'ll happily put up one of my stock std 13B-REW\'s against any car pound for pound in boost and weight and equipped with a Mazda gearbox hand out a lesson in why porting is a mistake on these engines. :Thumbsup!
Quote from: Grant Monkhouse;753299Yes I agree but come on, the noise, the eargasm of noise!!!
Most people don\'t go to watch drag racing because the cars are fast, it\'s the v8 noise. I have seen an electric drag car run around the 8 second mark. Really fast and impressive engineering skills but it sounded like dog mess!
If racing went to electric no one would watch it u less they played car sounds over the tannoy!
Personally I can\'t call myself a rotary enthusiast until I have owned a PP turbo motor and a 20B!
Don\'t get me wrong I probably love the noise more than anyone here :WaveBye
Just saying from lots of testing and my many gray hairs and hundreds of thousands of dollars spent you can do lots with what to others is not very much special :Thumbsup! and for the street is actually much more suitable :burnout
Boost schmoost?? A strange statement coming from you rice that is now testing at the 1.7 bar level? Hehe.
Hope you don\'t think I\'m questioning your knowledge as I am not, just asking the questions that everyone wants to.
Surely on a BP where the power is produced higher up will producemore HP then a standard port at the same rpms? Let\'s say 9,500 rpm? Would the standard port be able to keep the power at that level?
If I was racing or even street driving where my revs never went below 5,500 rpm would a bridged motor not be better? As you say the standard port is producing more power at point x. But what if my power band needs to be above that and to 10,000 rpm?
Impiety certain PAC performance aren\'t using standard ports??
Quote from: RICE RACING;753302As I said I\'ll happily put up one of my stock std 13B-REW\'s against any car pound for pound in boost and weight and equipped with a Mazda gearbox hand out a lesson in why porting is a mistake on these engines. :Thumbsup!
shame u dont live here, quite happy to take you on a track challenge :Giggle
I take absolutely no offense to anyone doubting what I am saying or expressing a view point or their own experience, its a free world and we all love our rotaries.
I am just sharing what I have found over the years running all types of engines personally and through my many end users across the world and locally in all fields of rotary engine endeavor.
You gotta look at the whole package to see what is fast and what is slow in the real world.
If any of you blokes are on Torrent? (sounds like I know about the internets LOL)!!! then down load HOT VERSION vol 107 and take a look at the cars tested in that video to see what I mean about the effect of packages.
I too used to be caught up in the porting mania :Hammer
Once you learn to harness the real function of a turbocharger you quickly then realize how totally irrelevant porting is and ironically you can use the superior charge filling at low speed and mid range speeds of the stock std ports to make an engine power curve that some 20B runners would be envious of :god ............... then your talking about levels of power that really cant be used anymore in a road going RX7 as well, so the never ending mind f7ck of what porting type to use is even more or a redundant concept.
IF however you are stuck at an arbitrary limit and care not for NOISE level or running any type of normal road going car then porting done well can yield some nice top end gains, at the expense of low speed and mid range power (not a problem for a race car with dog box and 6 speeds).
Quote from: BlitzBoy;753306shame u dont live here, quite happy to take you on a track challenge :Giggle
That\'s a pretty good time for 60mph to 120mph of 6.5 seconds.
I check my old air port strip run and it was
7.09 seconds as a comparison. I since am running more power and will be going back out to test it again.
Quote from: Grant Monkhouse;753304If I was racing or even street driving where my revs never went below 5,500 rpm would a bridged motor not be better? As you say the standard port is producing more power at point x. But what if my power band needs to be above that and to 10,000 rpm?
If you want an engine to run to 10,000rpm stock ports will struggle to achieve that. Using a very large turbine though they can work to almost 9000rpm *believe it or not*.
I run stock standard ports to 8500rpm. And through sophisticated and advanced computer analysis you need to rev them this high (once a power band is recorded) to make most use of the std gearbox ratios to derive maximum average acceleration pulling form 1st to top of 4th gear (140mph). Now if you go use a "street port" you need to rev even higher, but then you still fall down too far on a gear change into the lack of power zone through the modified port timing, so even though the boost is equal you are making less power. The same effect happens on a bridge and its even more exagerated on a PP. You also have the odd side effect in cars with short gearing and say a 6 speed (or even 5 speed) that you are changing gears too often and thus are loosing net drive effect (always an issue in single clutch applications (non DSG twin input shaft boxes which are only found in modern cars)........ so its real easy to go slower rather than faster despite having a dyno sheet that says you should be Don Mega :King
This topic has amazing info. :) But im a bit curious... How about N/A engines, which is better for rallycross race car, PP or big bridge port? Cause mid range torque is guite important. Your opinions...?
Thanks. :)
Quote from: re japi;753431This topic has amazing info. :) But im a bit curious... How about N/A engines, which is better for rallycross race car, PP or big bridge port? Cause mid range torque is guite important. Your opinions...?
Thanks. :)
If you are not noise limited then a Peripheral Port is best, to make it work in your application you need to run the right tuned length exhaust and intake manifold set up (length) if running carburetor it needs to have correct sized venturi (40mm) in a 48IDA works really well. or if fuel injected similar principles apply. You need the right air speed to keep the fuel well mixed with the air that the engine is injesting or otherwise it will only work over a narrow range when the air speed is sufficient :yes
A bridge is much easier to get to work as is a combination port (side bridge with peripheral of small nature.)
All of this advise goes out the window if you are running a restrictive exhaust system, all of the porting principles suffer badly, best to worst in this order.
Stock port
Street port
Secondary bridge
Full bridge
Semi Peripheral (combination port)
Full "J" Bridge
Peripheral PortIt is very easy to have a stock or very mildly enhanced stock port totally dominate ANY of the more extreme porting types when running a restrictive exhaust (read ANY exhaust that is legal be it street or drive by race track noise test!) this is doubly as bad when talking Natural Engines V Turbo charged.
Back in the day when we street raced every weekend and night the best combo\'s were of the milder principles (small secondary bridges) still with ear splitting exhaust ! but someone could still beat you with a good street port :burnout I can share many a story on this :WaveBye
If you have absolutely no exhaust restrictions or noise limits to abide by like at the LEMANS 24Hr or a F1 Grand Prix (or a Drug/Drag track) then Peripheral works, Most drive by noise limits imposed at circuit track day events consign Peripheral to the shelf and milder bridge can be made to work better at the higher exhaust pressure levels these types of exhaust impose on the engine. The amount of power loss is directly proportional to the exhaust manifold pressure and PP and its variants suffer absoluetely the worst in this instance and stock ports suffer the least. Type of port you pick in this day and age of homosexuals and green peace dictates what porting style you can exploit to most advantage.
If you want some more information on Peripheral I can show you a type I developed to work in a stadium truck (off road racing indoors!) run in N/A form with effective power band between 5k and 8k rpm.
Could port timing be increased on a stock port engine by chamfering/scalloping the sides of the rotor? To give earlier inlet opening and closing allowing more air in on stock ports?
In turn allowing for more air to be forced in? Gaining more power over all of the range?
Big thumbs up for the info shared in this thread.
Nice one guys :)
Quote from: Grant Monkhouse;753611Could port timing be increased on a stock port engine by chamfering/scalloping the sides of the rotor? To give earlier inlet opening and closing allowing more air in on stock ports?
Yes I have done that to many motors, when I get a chance I will put up the exact port timing (open close and overlap period) of such a modification. I do this to both opening and closing edges on my rotors, this puts this type of mod between a semi bridge and full bridge in terms of (overlap to exhaust sensitivity) but gives the engine more top end when combined with a street port of the style I do. :yes
What you also need to consider on all of the race porting principles is the area to crank angle relationship as well, this is real important when selecting the type you want to use (given exhaust restriction limits you are forced to comply with these days).
Interesting topic for sure, mostly made totally redundant by the advent of turbochargers and peoples ability to use them correctly though.
yes it made slightly irrelevant by turbos, i wonder what a supercharged ported engine would like as there isnt a turbo int the way to stop the exhaust escaping??
would you say scallopped rotors would work on the engine you are currently putting through extensive testing at ever incresing and amazing bost levels?
the way i see scalloped rotors is through the similarities of a piston ported 2 stroke engine, of which my dad knows a hell of a lot about and try to ask him questions about 2 stroke workings all the time as they are an amazing piece of engine.
just had anothe thought, could the exhaust be ported out to sides? you would not be changing the timing of the ports opening and closing so would the engine benefit from increased gas flow but no suffer from loud over lap brapping???
hmmmm?? im glad a have a huge imagination for these type of questions. why on earth i became an electrician i dont know. should have got into engines!!
oh i know why im an electrician.... the money!
Scalloped rotors are more aggressive in timing compared to a street port and have even more overlap (but no two people do things the same) the same negatives of overlap apply, so it is easy to go backwards.
To be brutally honest with you it is so hard to not gag over the stock std 13B-REW port timing (again we are talking turbocharged) where you can very easily gain the few percent a compromised "port" will give you just by the simple addition of boost (small increases over it) I talked about this at length in one of the other threads where I put up an example of one customer who lives in the UK now with his stock port V\'s a ported example and keeping all other variables in check and only altering boost.
It\'s hard to cater for all peoples taste and objectives in a simple internet posting like here (some are all out racers!, others street racers, others just want a bit more urge over stock) so take from the discussion what you will.
All I know is that in RICESP it\'s a total f7cken ANIMAL :burnout it twists the chassis on acceleartion, wants to slip the twin plate carbon clutch in 3rd gear!, it accelerates as hard as a full bridge port T51 set up running a almost race exhaust. < So from my persepctive cause I live with a car and run many examples I cant quite comprehend why people still are looking for the porting nirvana when its a total non issue once you learn to optimise the set up that Mazda gave you. :Thumbsup! :3Confused I really did not want to even contimplate running a non street ported engine with my special rotors, but given I sell more stock std engines than modified ones I wanted to find out myself just how fast a stock std 13B-REW can be, and I am glad I took the time out to replicate the results I got form others many many years ago in my own test bed with all the data logging advancement since then. It\'s also great to be able to show people first hand what a stock std engine can do, most people dont believe you :rolleyes: which is fine, I guess I would not either if it was a one off, but having repeated it many times now over a large span of time I am more of a believer in stock is best for the street (by a long way) and even stock is best for ANY car (all kinds of hobby motorsport activities) running a normal syncromesh gearbox as well.