Mazda Rotary Club

Im going to purchase everything seperately then get it all fitted, can anyone think of anything ive forgotten?

ECU
Fuelling (pump, injectors, rail etc...)
Single Turbo Kit (undecided as yet)
Intercooler
Intake Filter
Down Pipe & Mid Pipe
Suapension
Clutch
Brakes
Boost Controller

what have i forgotten?

EGT/wideband sensor
Water Injection

Adding that lot up on guesstimates, id seriously advise selling it and buying a single if thats what you want.

I think you should go out in one first.  I dont especially like them, but maybe thats because I havnt actually driven one.

Why dont u get it from who ever fits the stuff? less hassle, less problems when some thing breaks that shouldnt, less likely to get shafted by fitter as they havent made any thing on parts!

Forgotten - all the little bits and bobs that make the bill 25% more than u r expecting! e.g. fittings for every thing, tuning time etc

QuoteOriginally posted by J4P RX
Adding that lot up on guesstimates, id seriously advise selling it and buying a single if thats what you want.

I think you should go out in one first.  I dont especially like them, but maybe thats because I havnt actually driven one.

Agreed, I don\'t think the way of the single is for everyone

and also it would be more cost effective to buy a already converted car

Personally I don\'t see the suspension and clutch upgrade that essential unless you are going for silly power

I dont want to sell up and get another car because im happy with the car.

But im starting to see i dont need a rediculously large turbo :)

What would i need to add to the standard set-up to give me as much reliable power as possible?  the standard car has around 270bhp FWHP right, whats that at the wheels?

I\'m lost, have you gone off the single idea now ?

Do you mean reliable power with a single or reliable power with stock twins ?

Transmission loss is roughly about 18% iirc

Standard car should be about 210-15 at the wheels.  Think thats about what Ben and Kevin got from theirs on the rollers.

I guess you need to decide how much power you want, and what you need it for.  I can honestly say im happy with the amount I have, but would really like some decent suspension and a good diff.

On g-force\'s rr mine was measured at 241RWHP, 299 FWHP.  That\'s a tick over 19% loss.

Sensible mods on the stock twins can get really decent power gains and can be re-used if you decide to go single (i.e. Intercooler, fuelling, ECU).

If you find and settle on a specific tuner and explain to them where you want to go with the car then you can work out a cost-effective and progressive (and safe) roadmap to get there.

Iain

QuoteOriginally posted by iaint
On g-force\'s rr mine was measured at 241RWHP, 299 FWHP.  That\'s a tick over 19% loss.

Sensible mods on the stock twins can get really decent power gains and can be re-used if you decide to go single (i.e. Intercooler, fuelling, ECU).

If you find and settle on a specific tuner and explain to them where you want to go with the car then you can work out a cost-effective and progressive (and safe) roadmap to get there.

Iain

Wise words, 290-300 bhp at the wheels is possible without upgrading fueling

290-300 rwhp without upgrading fuelling?

I though the fuelling was one of the weakest links in the FD?

that what mines running after just being built by Carl

After loking back at old post with the search button i still cant decide wether to go single or mod the twins :confused:

I do know i dont want a big T88.
Probably HKS To4R at the biggest, but i like what im reading about the Apexi kit.  Do the roller bearings on a GT35/40 help it spool up quicker?

why don\'t you mod the engine and leave the twins std then seem how you get on with the increased power

then you can swap for a single in the future if you want and you will have done all the background mods to make it feasible already, you\'ll have to mod bits like I/C, ecu anyway

Yeah i think that will be the way to go if im sensible.  But im not very sensible :)

I will do my research into the different singles, but i think keeping the twins is probably best for now.

theres being sensible then theres throwing money away

the fact that you are thinking about it rather than doing it is a good start

QuoteOriginally posted by MintyFresh
290-300 rwhp without upgrading fuelling?

I though the fuelling was one of the weakest links in the FD?

Definitely you would need a clutch for a single turbo, twin plate clutch are around the region of £1500 + fitting
fuelling is a must first. Sugar ray lenoard beat Marvin Hagler by fighting the first 8-9 rounds toe  to toe but it don\'t mean it was the crrect way to go about things, anyway back on track.
Add to your list ht leads, ignition amp, spark plugs, some essential electronic gauges if you don\'t already have them i.e water temp, oil etc etc etc a lot depends on what you want from the car and it\'s intended usage. A torque brace would be hand to stop those 3rd & 5th gear misshifts which will save your 3rd & 5th gear syncros, airpump removal new pulleys and belt. A serious amount of labour cost for fitting and setting everything up.
I know you love your car but it is considerbly cheaper to buy one already done and spend money on the bodykit & wheels of your choice.

rgds

QuoteOriginally posted by MintyFresh
but i like what im reading about the Apexi kit.  Do the roller bearings on a GT35/40 help it spool up quicker?

Is this the RX6 kit? I liked the sound of that - quick spool  and flowing about as high as i\'d like to go. I heard the RX6 kit is no longer available though - and they\'re not rebuildable like the garrett ones.

I was planning on going single but to be honest I\'m pretty much happy with what I have. But if you take the twins as far as you can, as Dave says you\'ll have pretty much all you need apart from the single turbo kit and remap.

The only thing with twins is the inumerable boost issues you encounter when running higher than stock boost. Some are easy fixes some are a right pig to track and trace.

rgds

QuoteOriginally posted by BNA_ELLIS
The only thing with twins is the inumerable boost issues you encounter when running higher than stock boost. Some are easy fixes some are a right pig to track and trace.

exactly - if you\'ve got everything in place already and the inclination, it is when issues such as these become apparent that i would go single.

you\'ve given me a lot to think about, thanks for your opinions.

QuoteOriginally posted by J4P RX
Standard car should be about 210-15 at the wheels.  Think thats about what Ben and Kevin got from theirs on the rollers.

About right Lee, I got 217 rwhp when car was stock, a little more than Ben\'s stock car. Before we went on the rollers Ben said "all I want to do is get a higher number than you",  bless him.

Kevin

QuoteOriginally posted by Kevint
About right Lee, I got 217 rwhp when car was stock, a little more than Ben\'s stock car. Before we went on the rollers Ben said "all I want to do is get a higher number than you",  bless him.

Kevin

That comes under the \'Mastercard priceless\' category. lol.

Iain

Minty, have you had your engine rebuilt yet?
If not, my suggestion would be to get an ecu (apexi pfc) get bigger 2ndary injectors, bigger fuel pump, front mount intercooler, sort your exhaust out, have it mapped, raise the boost to 1 bar and drive it until it pops.  All these mods are faily easy and cheap to do, and you dont need to remove your engine to do them.  When it pops, have it rebuilt with a little porting exhaust and inlet, this will not effect your idle or driveablilty.  At the same time you can throw away all the solanoids and vacume pipes, have your single turbo fitted and your uprated clutch, (act street strip clutch in mine cost $450 and copes with my 360 rwhp.) That way you wont pay extra to have your single or clutch fitted as the engine will be out already. And everything else is already in place.  

i can understand why some of the guys love the stock twins, especially on the track but mine had twins on it and now has a to4E and i managed 2 seconds off the 1/4 mile with only 2psi of boost more. And the slight lag is more than made up for by the sheer power a single produces,  I took a friend at work out in mine, he has a skyline with a couple of mods, and he just laughed uncontollably and said it made his skyline feel like a 2CV.

Also as i did all the work myself, everything is so simple with a single on it and no boost problems.  

As for turbo, i would go for a GT35/40 or a GT40R, both are roller bearing and will spool almost as quick as stock twins and every body who is using them is getting at least 350rwhp. There must be a reason every one is using them.

Just my thoughts, i\'m sure some people will disagree

regards

tony

Just to throw a cat amongst the pidgeons (so to speak). Is it not possible to run a supercharger and turbo combination thereby overcoming the lag issue, then you could go a big as you wanted on the turbo side! I know this was don in the 80s on a Sierra XR4x4. I appreciate it would be very costly, but is it possible on a rotary engine?

Using nitrous lower down to counter the lag would be far simpler and cheaper

but then we are back on the nitrous discussion !

:rollin

Hi ya guys! Dunno if anyone saw John Yorkes car in Banzai but that was apparently running 385 at the wheels on the stock twins. I\'ve been thinking about going down the single or upgrading the twins route too - so perhaps if we teamed up Minty we could ssave a few quid??

Another option would be to add more rotors!

Three or four! Dunno about how huge a dent that\'d cause in my bank account tho?

Cheers


Ben

ask Glenn how much his 4rotor is going to cost! :eek:

Maybe it was a bargin eh!?

Maybe when he gets bored of it he\'ll let me have it! :D

Cheers


Ben

QuoteOriginally posted by Initial-D
Hi ya guys! Dunno if anyone saw John Yorkes car in Banzai but that was apparently running 385 at the wheels on the stock twins.

lol now that\'s american dyno figures for sure.:rollin
I think you\'ll find that flywheel figure mate.

rgds

What\'s the calculation for wheels to flywheel?

So what can you expect to put out of your stock twins assuming you run them at standard boost and upgrade the fuelling/rad/injectors/intake/intercooler etc..?? (At wheels that is)!

Cheers


Ben

315rwbhp approx

Not bad at all!

Although whats the ballpark cost to get to that stage (if anyone would care to share their outgoings)!

Then once I\'d blown up my stock twins after craving yet more power (bound to happen) - would I just need to splash out for a single turbo, clutch upgrade and new pants if I was going for a T04Z / T88?

Cheers


Ben

approx

induction £150
ECU 650
Exhaust £250
Downpipe £150
CAT replacement £130
Mapping £400
intercooler £800
Fueling - no idea

plus labour


obviously all depends on what you get and where you get it

Assuming you already have a Power FC or similar...
rad - £350
fuel pump - £150
injectors £250 ish?? - depends on size and if you need a new fuel rail or not
intake/intercooler - Apexi £1150

Plus labour and mapping

Roughly speaking - there will no doubt be bits and bobs to add to this

Yep got a Power FC, and full straight thru with decat.

All looked quite promising until I got to the intercooler! Hmm a bit costly!

How many injectors would I need.. looking at 1,000 secondarys I think. Would this need a new rail?

Seems best to go the upgrade twins, then big turbo. As the cost can be spread over a longer period..

Cheers


Ben

1000 secondarys are a bit pointless if u intend running a single tubby in the future. do the deed and a get a meaty fuel system now e.g. new sec fuel rail, 1600s, 040 (may be 044) pump, swirl pot,  FPR, aeroquip etc.

1000-1300s will fit stock rail but are expensive as they are stockers sent to US, bored and sent back - I think Pip sells them for 175+vat each.

QuoteOriginally posted by davefrith
315rwbhp approx

That\'s not at standard boost though. You would have to crank the boost up to achieve that figure. Aalso the turbos themselves are not a weak point so you hoping to blow them would take you some time. The weak point is the operation of the turbos acuators, solenoids, check valves vacuum pipe etc etc.

rgds

Looks like I may have to get on the phone and discuss my budget and long term goals with a rotary guru!

I love sound of singles and a nice noisy wastegate! Plus some super big flames when u let off the gas!

Maybe I should save up and just buy a track car from Japan and keep the one I have now as my lady puller!! :D

Cheers


Ben

I seem to remember John\'s car is running 14 PSI and is also street ported.

On the matter of costs, don\'t forget to add garage bills if you\'re not/can\'t do it yourself.

What\'s considered to be THE or one of the best intake kits? I like the GruppeM CF one but it\'s not practical when upgrading, APEXi or HKS? Taking into account that I\'d fabricate a heat shield if required.

Cheers


Ben

14!! That\'s quite high for the stockers, Hmmm.. thinking cap time.

May have to go for a rummage around the net for prices on the parts, I could do the intake and rad/intercooler, then leave the fuel side to the pros;)

Cheers


Ben

John runs 14psi and a pretty conservative map.

14psi for the stock twins is not that big a deal I dont think. Much more is though. Ant poo\'d his twins running 16psi+ very quickly...

The apexi intake kit is one of the better reputed intakes; power and filtration are both excellent.

remind the dumb ass what\'s that in bar?
Si

14psi about .95bar
16psi about 1.1bar

this bar stuff and psi confuses the hell out of me

On my boost gauge it goes 0.5, 1.0, 1.5, 2.0 so can I assume thats in bar ?

bar or kg2...roughly the same..

Hi Dave,

Yep that sounds like a 2 bar gauge, for conversions I recommend a little utility that someone originally recommended here or on FDUK, Convert from //www.joshmadison.com/software

Kevin

well my car has very recently been mapped and set up, it is now boosting to 1.0, 1.1 on the gauge at full boost, can I assume this is too high with stock intercooler and fueling ?

Screenshot of convert:

Ermm.. is their a MAC version of that utility!! :(

I think I\'ll go for an Apexi intake then!! Any suggestions of a good place to purchase?

Cheers


Ben

QuoteOriginally posted by davefrith
well my car has very recently been mapped and set up, it is now boosting to 1.0, 1.1 on the gauge at full boost, can I assume this is too high with stock intercooler and fueling ?

Dave,

I\'d talk to your tuner, presumably injector duty is still OK?  I had my boost controller setup for two settings 0.7 or 0.8 bar, economy :confused: or power :D

kevin

Geff sold his last apexi kit on saturday :(

Buy the GT-spec twin turbo intercooler kit and you get the intake kit with hard pipes for \'free\' :)

2 birds/1 stone...and only £1180 :rollin

If I did, I take it the bits would be fine when I move up to a single.

Does it include a heat shield for the intake?

The hard pipes are for the intercooler left and right plus another for the intake?

Apexi US doesn\'t seem to give much detail.

Cheers


Ben

Just found the manuals, there seems to be a single turbo version aswell!

Other than me comparing all the bits included in each - does anyone know the difference?

And if I install this to my car will it still run okay on fuelling etc? I got the PFC and full decat/straight thru with alum AST.

Cheers


Ben

Who\'s got one of these kits eh? £500??:D

Is the box very large and heavy? As I may consider ordering from Japan or the US.

Cheers


Ben

Ah I see now! Difference is the single turo version hasn\'t got all the hard pipes or the intakes.

But the other bits are the same.

Cheers


Ben

Talking to your self mate?:D

Differences:

TT kit includes a hard piped version of the Apexi Power intake kit with it (designed to fit the stock turbo intakes once the GT intercooler is in place). TT kit has all (hard) pipes to connect turbos to throttle body. No shielding for intakes but I/C does a very good job :)

The Single kit comes without the intakes (as they dont fit, dur!) and without any piping from the compressor housing outlet - you have to make your own piping from the turbo outlet to the inlet of the I/C as  there are too many different turbo configurations to supply a one-size-fits-all pipe.

When u go single turbo, you can sell the power intake kit to some one with twins. Then u just buy a filter for the turbo and get the installer to TIG up some piping to fill the gap between turbo outlet and i/c inlet.

You may be marginal on fuel, quick check with a WBo2 to be safe after install. Best to get it tuned to make most of the bits any ways I guess.

Finally, yes - the boxes are fairly big and quite heavy; I\'d guess about 4 and a 1/2 ft long by 2ft square and heavy enough that u struggle with it on your own. Also has vicious staples holding it together which hurt when u use it to pierce the flap of skin between your thumb and finger - as Dave at TV MOT found out when we took his out of my FC, cried like a baby :)

Capiche(sp?)?

Aha! All is clear, methinks I\'ll probably go for one.

Yep I love chatting away to myself!;)

Whos the cheapest to purchase from - anyone??

Cheers


Ben