Seems revolution is becoming a trend. I must say i cant blame them over there, i understand its a terrible situation, tragic even. I do hope though we dont get overly involved though as i would imagine it would be another war we just cant win!
I thought it was proof that Cameron either blindly believes his own hype and like Blair that he\'s on some divinely-appointed Higher Calling or that he\'s a championship comedian.....or simply doesn\'t understand the concept of irony. What am I on about? Simply his quote two days ago that Britain couldn\'t rule out armed involvement and that Gaddafi "had to go because he has clearly lost the consent of his people to govern them" :confused:
What.....The.....F :eek:!? Surely the same could be said of Cameron himself and his old boy\'s priviledged elite unelected jollies network? Maybe Libya should be entitled to invade the UK by the same argument, since we are in fact currently governed by what amounts to an unelected dictatorship with little or no mandate from the populace. The arrogance of the **** sickens me, not to mention his ignorant inability to learn from history. Doesn\'t even have to be ancient history, Bliar the Antichrist provided plenty of recent examples of exactly why Britain should stay the fduk out of other country\'s business. In fact, British armed forces are still fighting an dying because of the last ill-concieved bout of meddling in something that\'s naff-all to do with us
In some twisted argument you could perhaps suggest our involvement in Irag & Afghanistan was because they posed a threat to us, not that i necessarily agree however!
After watching Ross Kemps latest offering last night it kind of goes to show what, say the UN is up against, i am sure what they do is no mean feat, but the "anarchy" still continues. They argued last night if the UN left it would be carnage on a higher level. So could argue is their presence "justified" as the revolutionaries still exist.
I find these situations fascinating, do we have a moral obligation to get involved as a civilized country or should we just leave them to it whilst the lives of millions of innocent people living there are affected. Some of the stories last night were just horrific.
Mr Greek on a side note, did you enjoy the cheeky fat chappy on TG last night!
Lets be honest the only reason the west is even contemplating sending soldiers is down to one thing and one thing only THE OIL
Quote from: Nik da Greek;746298since we are in fact currently governed by what amounts to an unelected dictatorship with little or no mandate from the populace.
Disagree with you here Nik, I think the election of a coalition government and the ousting of Labour was an accurate representation of the ill feelings towards any one party being in power.
I\'ve seen more common sense from Cameron and co. since their election than in all the years under Blair with his frivolous policies and spending.
I think all politicians in our crumbling governmental system are simply career self-servers who don\'t give a flying 4x about any policy, principles or the betterement of any portion of society that doesn\'t directly strengthen their grip on power. If their consolidation of power towards their own profit and self-aggrandisement by some fluke benefits the country then they\'re obviously happy to bask in the reflected glory, but please don\'t think that because I detest Cameron it means I think Blair shouldn\'t have been ousted, in fact I think he\'s quite clearly the living rule of why politicans should not be allowed any personal profit from office whatsoever, before or afterwards. He\'s so blatantly spent the last terms of office lining his own nest at the country\'s expense and setting himself up for life in whatever lucrative consultation role he can land, all the while dressing up his motivation as some fundamentalist religious insanity or even more simplistically because "it is right".
If you state the same mantra often enough with enough conviction, gullible people will believe it, and just because Cameron went to a nicer school and has nicer hair doesn\'t make his constant assertion that "it is right" any less implausible or unsubstatiated. The middle east crises have at least given him the opportunity for some nice holidays combined with some leisurely gun running to fascistic dictatorships all the while claiming the moral high ground. Yes, very good sense no doubt
The UN is literally as much use as a chocolate fireguard, they simply exist as the kid in the playground who says "come on guys, break it up" then stands on the sidelines wringing his hands like a cissy whilst the protagonaists beat s*** out of each other. Tell me what the UN have done to benefit Cyprus in the last 60 years, then tell me how much use they are to anyone
Mr Pilot, I haven\'t seen it yet
Uh... I think we just hit Poe\'s Law (http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Poe%27s_Law). It won\'t be long before Godwin turns up...
Ian.
Please note I specifically avoided mentioning Hitler because there\'s always some smart arse who has nothing to offer the debate in question but just lives to post sanctimonious links to Wikipedia at every available opportunity :p.......
Oh, Ian, hi, didn\'t see you lurking in the shadows there. Anything to bring to the discussion lol? Here, have some smilies just to prove how godamned ironic and self-mocking we all are :Thumbs-up ;) :rollin
Nik used the H word - Godwins law is invoked...
Thread locked in 5...4...3...2...
And for the record.... do you really want the oil situation controlled by the likes of the old Iraqi regime? Think about it.... prices are bad enough as they are... if it really kicks off thats pretty much it for cars as a hobby... :(
Quote from: Brett;746356And for the record.... do you really want the oil situation controlled by the likes of the old Iraqi regime? Think about it.... prices are bad enough as they are... if it really kicks off thats pretty much it for cars as a hobby... :(
Not really but being as its not our country dont you think just for once maybe we should concentrate on getting our own house in order before wasting more lives and money on a conflict that you will never be thanked for.:rolleyes:
True... but when your \'house\' is more or less reliant on the status quo of the rest of the world what do you do?
Ideally everyone should have equality... but at what cost?
42 years of Dictatorship where the leader has sanctioned terrorist acts that have directly affected this country and an coalition of elected officials with an internationally recognised mandate to govern within the confines of our democratic principals are not even on the same page it terms of comparability. Despite the fact that the aforementioned coalition has made unpopular decisions that were largely forced upon it by a colossal budget deficit left by the cack handed operations of the previous government.
Regardless of this, we\'re about to feel the bite of the Strategic Defence and Security Review. The Ship that has been evacuating Brits from Lebanon is being decommissioned as part of the defence cuts when she gets back and we\'ve not got a Frigate/Destroyer sized ship on station in the Falklands for the first time in 29 years, one is within the required distance to satisfy what is required but it illustrates the fact that we\'re unable to meet emergent tasking with the fleet the size that it is. The RAF/RN have lost the Harrier, which provided the UK contribution to close air support in Afghanistan until the Tornado took over, the RAF are loosing Tornados as well so that\'s going to be stretched further. The Army are going to have big logistical problems with bringing back all the units that are based out in Germany, they\'ll struggle to find them homes and the like.
We are in a global economic slump and we are a nation that relies on international trade for prosperity. 90% of that trade travels by sea, major sea lanes pass close to some seriously unsavoury parts of the world. Anything heading East of Italy in the Med gets within 60 miles of Libyan coastline. Unless you want to spend an extra million or so and risk your cargo with some of the roughest seafaring conditions in the world, if you want to head get to anywhere from the Middle East to Japan you have to go through the Suez Canal and the Gulf supplies masses of oil to the world economies. As a nation that has a vested interest in world trade we need to take an interest in these places not just through parking a gunboat in there but encouraging democracy and getting these people involved with the international community in a positive way.
Interesting and valid points there from someone who clearly understands the logstcis involved. What\'s probably most upsetting however is that like Will says in his opening sentence, this regime has been in power for 42 years. Why then is it suddenly so essential that the freedom of the Libyan people becomes the US and UKs number one priority? The argument may as well read "we need stability at any cost in the Middle East and North Africa, even if that means tacitly supporting an unelected and vicious dictator simply because he gaurantees predictability". The notion tha Cameron or any other career politician gives a flying fduk for how many Libyans die in the struggle, are executed for their uprising or suffer in any other way is particularly noxious given this country\'s stance of utter indifference to their plight for the last four decades.
It\'s about the oil and the transport links, and to dress it up as anything else is distasteful to anyone who can see beyond the very thin veneer of human rights concern worn by Cameron like a very ill-fittting mask. What he\'d like best s for Gaddafi to have stayed in power indefinitelty, because that way he could continue claiming the moral high ground by holding sanctions against Libya (which of course only make the average citizen suffer whilst the government recline in their bejewelled palaces) whilst brokering oil deals with the junta.
As for all the "Brits" moaning about hos they\'ve been betrayed by not being whisked away out of Libya as soon as trouble started, well what the hell were you doing there in the first place? Taking blood money from a red-handed dictator because he has no choice but to pay better than anyone else. They knew exactly what they were doing by going there, let them fund their own extraction using the thousands of dollars of Libyan blood they have on their hands
On a purely miltitary point Britain can not get involved even if they wanted to, all the miltary resources are in Afghanistan, they might be able to fly some token Eurofighters to Italy and fly missions from there is about all this country can do.
My point of view is let the people of Libya fight it out, its clear there is still a couple million libyans backing Gaddaffi otherwise he would have gone days ago, so let the people of libya fight it out. I think there should be a no fly zone to level out the battlefield. I agree with Nick most nationals from other countries working out there were to earn mostly tax free money, so they know the risk.
I think as most governments agenda, be that Tory, Labour, Tory/Lib etc there are motives behind the "front" they decide to use. Be that oil, logistics etc.
So on that basis has us ousting Sadamm helped the bigger picture? It seems we are in a pretty bad state, would having him still in control be any worse financially for us?
Apart from the hideous lack of human rights in Libya, which i am sure as individuals does unsettle us, are we really that concerned or are we more concerned about how it will affect us financially? It will obviously costs us millions if we get involved, millions that we apparently dont have. Will those millions spent save us in the long run as i certainly cant see Iraq has been cost effective.
so David Cameron is all in favour of rising up against unpopular governments now? and he\'s still going to do the whole 5p fuel duty rise or whatever it is?
i doubt there\'s anything we can actually do about Libya; we don\'t have the military, economic or diplomatic weight we used to swing in the Thatcher (boo!) days. i think we need to wake up and realise that we\'re just a pants little island that America doesn\'t really care about anymore and Europe treats as some harmless, nerdy outsider kid.
Quote from: jackaleks;746484i think we need to wake up and realise that we\'re just a pants little island that America doesn\'t really care about anymore and Europe treats as some harmless, nerdy outsider kid.
so true :Laugh
I think we are only known for our overpaid footballers and Z class reality TV celebs
I think Mr Greek strikes a cord when he mentions the reality behind who politicians are these days.
Say what you want about Thatcher, but imho, she was more about Great Britain than Blair, Cameron, Brown etc put together.
I think i heard Blairs fee for a key speaker at a convention is £250k, which he probably doesnt pay any tax on!
F*ck it, lets have a revolution ourselves!!
If Britain were to consider a military operation around Libya we\'d need to reconsider the SDSR. Currently we don\'t have the planes to mount an effective No-Fly zone over Libya, we\'d be able to base Eurofighters in Akrotiri in Cyprus but they\'d not have long on task in Libyan airspace. Carrier based operations are out, they seriously considered recommissioning the ARK ROYAL to evacuate people from Libya, they didn\'t only because her main engines have already been removed to bring ILLUSTRIOUS out of refit.
Gaddafi has apparently said western intervention would result in 1000\'s of deaths i heard on the news today.
Oh dear, you know what US is like if they get challenged.
Yeah, come on, America. Get in there and flail around helplessly like you always do. After all, someone has to keep your multi-million dollar arms industry chugging along so that all those Congressmen can retire on their nice fat bribes. Besides, all the half-trained US grunts littering the deserts of the middle east with their corpses would only have gone on to be ghetto rats and a burden on society anyway
Quote from: Nik da Greek;746694Yeah, come on, America. Get in there and flail around helplessly like you always do. After all, someone has to keep your multi-million dollar arms industry chugging along so that all those Congressmen can retire on their nice fat bribes. Besides, all the half-trained US grunts littering the deserts of the middle east with their corpses would only have gone on to be ghetto rats and a burden on society anyway
America...
Fuuuck yeah! Here we come to save the mother....ing daaaaaay!
If Libyans start attacking America directly it will be a bloodbath, I\'ve worked with Americans several times and whilst they\'re not subtle, not particularly good at thinking outside their own procedures, shockingly bad at empathy and not as good at steely ship-driving as we are, they are very good at one thing. Bringing colossal quantities of high explosive ordinance to bear on a target. Suppressing the initial Libyan offensive will be easy, their airforce won\'t get off the ground and their armoured units won\'t move more than a mile before they\'re neutralised and their maritime forces won\'t dare leave port for fear of being sunk by a submarine, however the insurgent uprising that will then follow will be really difficult to deal with. See Iraq for details.
So... how long do we think the Libyan civil war is going to last? Just seen that they have started air-ground assaults on the rebel held towns again... and how long until Tunisia seals it border?
This is going to turn much worse very quickly...
Could end up like Vietnam with fewer trees. Or has Iraq already cornered that market? Or Afghanistan :confused:? Wait, can you say "Sandinista", children? :rollin
I think we are lucky to be an Island, can you imagine our Governments if we had borders!
Quote from: jackaleks;746700America...
Fuuuck yeah! Here we come to save the mother....ing daaaaaay!
LMAO luv that film!!!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3BN1jSpiyIM
Quote from: jetpilot;746310Mr Greek on a side note, did you enjoy the cheeky fat chappy on TG last night!
Finally saw it. I\'d have enjoyed it more had he died in a huge inferno after pranging the Cee\'D into an immovable object :bandit Another golden opportunity wasted *sigh*