As the title, who is running what? The benefits of each?
From being at AET turbos on Friday and discussing my new turbo and what works best for my application, drag racing, divided is better for street use but for full throttle in drag racing a single entry is better for higher revs as you have higher exhaust flow giving better top end.
Now the owner of AET was saying that most of the guys using t51 kais and t70s run a single housing? And one of the main reasons people go for divided is because most people use garret and they only come with divided due to their origins of being truck turbos.
I agree with most of the above. On one vehicle I tested we had a divided turbo manifold, swapped from a .96 open volute to a 1.0 divided and picked up 300rpms spool.
Higher velocities tend to lead to faster spool( keep each rotor completely divided).
I find that having the least amount of bends in a turbo manifold, a big exhaust, big ignition, and a good tune will lead to stupid fast spool on a any size rotary with any turbo under 66mm inducer if with an open entry turbine housing. The car below used to spool 1000 rpms faster on the stock ports. If you watch the video it spools pretty fast as is for a undivided turbo manifold with a 1.15 turbine housing.
If you are driving on the street tires is no sense in going any bigger turbo, you will never hook unless you are running drag radials anything past 20psi on the turbos less than 66mm...
For example a 61mm turbo;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHhyIK_uCtc
leads to spinning the new 285s @ 80+mph...
Quote from: Turblown;744169I agree with most of the above. On one vehicle I tested we had a divided turbo manifold, swapped from a .96 open volute to a 1.0 divided and picked up 300rpms spool.
Higher velocities tend to lead to faster spool( keep each rotor completely divided).
I find that having the least amount of bends in a turbo manifold, a big exhaust, big ignition, and a good tune will lead to stupid fast spool on a any size rotary with any turbo under 66mm inducer if with an open entry turbine housing. The car below used to spool 1000 rpms faster on the stock ports. If you watch the video it spools pretty fast as is for a undivided turbo manifold with a 1.15 turbine housing.
If you are driving on the street tires is no sense in going any bigger turbo, you will never hook unless you are running drag radials anything past 20psi on the turbos less than 66mm...
For example a 61mm turbo;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHhyIK_uCtc
leads to spinning the new 285s @ 80+mph...
i cant believe this site just wiped a whole reply that i have just spent the last 5 minutes writing!!!!
anyway start again,
i have got an s300sx3 Borgwarner turbo, 66mm inducer 73mm exducer, rated at 320-800 HP, so 640 HP max on a rotary? you can find all of the other details at www.borgwarnerboosted.com (http://www.borgwarnerboosted.com)
let me know what you think turblown, i am going to be using this on a bridgeported 13B, hopefully achieve 450HP
Project Z is running 2 of the BW400 series of turbo and is aiming for 6\'s to hopefully match its sister car in the states.
Quote from: Turblown;744169I agree with most of the above. On one vehicle I tested we had a divided turbo manifold, swapped from a .96 open volute to a 1.0 divided and picked up 300rpms spool.
Higher velocities tend to lead to faster spool( keep each rotor completely divided).
I find that having the least amount of bends in a turbo manifold, a big exhaust, big ignition, and a good tune will lead to stupid fast spool on a any size rotary with any turbo under 66mm inducer if with an open entry turbine housing. The car below used to spool 1000 rpms faster on the stock ports. If you watch the video it spools pretty fast as is for a undivided turbo manifold with a 1.15 turbine housing.
If you are driving on the street tires is no sense in going any bigger turbo, you will never hook unless you are running drag radials anything past 20psi on the turbos less than 66mm...
For example a 61mm turbo;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHhyIK_uCtc
leads to spinning the new 285s @ 80+mph...
Am i right in saying that car peaked at 491 HP?
was that at the wheels?
I don\'t know the BW series that well. Sounds like it should be able to do 450rwhp with those compressor specs. You just want to run a bigger turbine a/r with the bridge to let it breath where it wants to make power. Why are you running a bridge for such low power levels anyhow? When you say 450rwhp what kind of fuel consumption is that? To me this is the easiest way to compare power levels, as dynos read all over the place. That dyno is the only one in town I trust, and yes its 491rwhp, 22 psi streetport, TD61( gt35R P trim), dual walbros, 550/2200cc @ 77 percent.
Quote from: Turblown;744223I don\'t know the BW series that well. Sounds like it should be able to do 450rwhp with those compressor specs. You just want to run a bigger turbine a/r with the bridge to let it breath where it wants to make power. Why are you running a bridge for such low power levels anyhow? When you say 450rwhp what kind of fuel consumption is that? To me this is the easiest way to compare power levels, as dynos read all over the place. That dyno is the only one in town I trust, and yes its 491rwhp, 22 psi streetport, TD61( gt35R P trim), dual walbros, 550/2200cc @ 77 percent.
i say 450 hp because thats what i have been told i will acheive on 14 pounds of boost, we could make up to the region of 600HP but want the engine to last a long time, what would you rekon would be more realistic on a bridge?
i am currently contemplating on a haltech ecu rather than the apexi because so much more can be done with the ecu, anti-lag, launch control etc, but all comes down to expense at the end of the day.
what do you mean fuel consumption? going to be running 2x 550\'s 2x 1680\'s, bosch 044 fuel pump, aeromtive fpr
Any single turbo at less than 20psi is just pointless, use the turbo the way god intended and you don\'t need to .... up your power band by bridging your engine :Thumbs-up
1.5 bar minimum boost
1.7 bar nice power setting
2.0 bar for real amazing street car
2.5 bar for "I can destroy any supercar on the roads"
1.0 bar is just to low a boost level :Hammer
Divided housings ALWAYS will make more power than a non divided type, so you got some bum advise from your shop you spoke too about it too ;)
Quote from: Grant Monkhouse;744239i say 450 hp because thats what i have been told i will acheive on 14 pounds of boost, we could make up to the region of 600HP but want the engine to last a long time, what would you rekon would be more realistic on a bridge?
i am currently contemplating on a haltech ecu rather than the apexi because so much more can be done with the ecu, anti-lag, launch control etc, but all comes down to expense at the end of the day.
what do you mean fuel consumption? going to be running 2x 550\'s 2x 1680\'s, bosch 044 fuel pump, aeromtive fpr
If you want your engine to last a long time then you will need to water inject it.
You will run less peak pressure stress at 700bhp water injected than what you will on 450bhp without it ;) peak pressure and combustion temperature = death on rotary engine seals, long term.
Quote from: RICE RACING;744348Any single turbo at less than 20psi is just pointless, use the turbo the way god intended and you don\'t need to .... up your power band by bridging your engine :Thumbs-up
1.5 bar minimum boost
1.7 bar nice power setting
2.0 bar for real amazing street car
2.5 bar for "I can destroy any supercar on the roads"
1.0 bar is just to low a boost level :Hammer
Divided housings ALWAYS will make more power than a non divided type, so you got some bum advise from your shop you spoke too about it too ;)
2.5 bar! Now that is insane. Is that what you run to on your car?
After looking on the Internet last night for differences between single scroll and twin scroll. The info that came up was that twin scroll spools earlier but not by a huge amount.
With a twin scroll on a rotary Is it far superior due to the fact that there is no pause in the exhaust pulse driving the turbine? Essentially per rotor you have three pulses straight after each other, per rotor and then repeats.
Does keeping the exhaust pulses divided at high rpms not have a restriction of the exhaust gas flow due to there being less area for the gases to go through the turbo?
From my researching last night, a single scroll creates mire back pressure, preturbo? But does this only have an effect at low rpm? As at higher rpms there is less time for the pulse to return to the exhaust port?
A it like the overlap on a bridge or peripheral port? Where the overlap creates the brap and pushes some exhaust around to the intake? But when on the throttle, high rpm, it doesn\'t haven\'t the chance.
Quote from: Grant Monkhouse;7443612.5 bar! Now that is insane. Is that what you run to on your car?
I\'s like to know more about this also - most UK rotaries seem to call it quits at a bar or so of boost to be reliable, whereas over in the US they go way higher on the boost level!
Are the higher boost levels only for WI?
Rice is using WI and has spent a lot of time developing his car with it and uses commonly used parts by the rotary community. HKS twin power etc.
but i didnt know he was running that amount of boost, thats just crazy.
Quote from: suba;744419I\'s like to know more about this also - most UK rotaries seem to call it quits at a bar or so of boost to be reliable, whereas over in the US they go way higher on the boost level!
Are the higher boost levels only for WI?
i think a lot of rotary owners leave it at 1 bar due to the fact that you dont have to use a lot of boost to gain HP with a big turbo, and with increased boost comes increased intake temperatures, one thing that happens when running a lot of boost on the standard twins is the heat goes through the roof, before i changed my FD to a large front mount IC the intake temps were in the region of 55*C! which was rediculous, put the front mount on ond they rarely go above thirty sat in traffic. cruising is below 20*C, and im running at .95 bar for the last couple of years with no problems.
so if you turn up the boost with a big turbo and want to get the intake temps down to what they were then WI is used to do that.
well that my understanding of things anyway, im sure some people will have better explanations of why they dont use more than 1 bar boost and the explanation behind WI
I dont want to drag this off topic for the original poster, but I am very interested in why UK rotaries dont ever seem to run that much boost. On a GT30 or bigger turbo I can\'t imagine that intake temps are going to be much of a factor, as the turbo will still be efficient at 2 bar +, and when using a decent front mount I would have thought intake temps would be the same anyway.
I can see how there would be more heat generated by the turbo(s) themselves - but I doubt much of this would be transferred to the housings and rotors. I would have thought the reasons would be more related to how much the rotor tips and seals can reliably take....
I startedthe thread so not too bothered what direction it goes in as long as there is useful information given.
I think the amount of boost people comes down the fact that rotaries have bad rep for blowing up so people want the engines to last without worrying about throwing a tip, but if people don\'t try then we will always lag behind the Aussies and Americans when it comes to rotaries achieving huge power.
I appreciate the advice which rice brings to this forums, even though he can be very abrupt in the way he says things, but you can never tell by reading text the way someone has meant it to come across, I beleive in what rice has a number of times on turbo threads that a turbo should be used for what it was designed for, and that is to produce boost and lots of it.
You just have to make sure your doing all the other things right when applying big boost or pop goes the engine.
I don\'t take everything that rice says as gospel, I take what he says and apply it to what I think I know, but at the end of the day, he builds rotaries, I build engines, but there are others that have a different approach than Rice but not everyone that is out there is as willing to share their expertise openl, mainly due to the fact that in this country when someone shares their advice they get slagged off by another engine builder/tuner.
I went a bit off ata tangent there but you get the idea.
Seeing as water does not compress well (at all) and the amount you would have to flow at 1.5 to 2.0 bar. I dont see how this would be relaible. coupled with stock internals, .... fuel, your asking for trouble id say.
Wouldnt the vendors/tuners (bless em) love it if we all added WI, had remaps and raised boost to 1.5 to 2.5 plus in our street cars. lmao. they would certainly be inundated with rebuilds and remap service requests. Or maybe not. maybe we should all do that... Im ok as i have a load of engine parts in the garage to experiment with and i can build myself an engine for the cost of the gas/water and apex seals. Im learning all the time and have saved aLOT of cash making my own engines and doing my mapping myself.
Seriously though i have removed my large street port engine from my car (as i didnt like the power band). I am building a near stock port engine and going from 1.2 bar to no more than 1.5 with water injection (by advice from Rice). I just need some advice on what WI kit to go for and the kind of timing base map i will need.
90% track car only. 81 hotside undivided (at 1.5 bar im not sure the divsion thing will matter too much0
all my engines have blown up at. 1 bar + (boost in apex seals out) my large port was running 1.2 well when i removed (500fwhp) it but the power band was too narrow and high up the revs with a 1.3 hotsideee!
If my new engine blows with good afrs and conserative timing with the correct flow of water (egts) at 1.5 bar then...............Ill try again. also ill need 3 bar map sensor and good spark
btw i dont care about reliability anymore \'cos im ded \'ard
Quote from: DR SCHNITZEL;744455btw i dont care about reliability anymore \'cos im ded \'ard
I\'m not sure what being ard has anything to do with anything. Lol.
From what rice previously said, WI will increase life of the rotary
YEah only joking. Lol. just I have enough bits for it not to matter if it blows. Water is mysterious.
I\'m talking of running more boost on a car that is primarily a drag car, so 1/4 of a mike at a time, but will/can be driven on the streets.
I think the best thing to remember when using water is that your not burning water, it is water vapour, atomised water. So in essence is it more like a gas but just needs good ignition to make it burn with the fuel?
Only joking lol. Water is mysterious. It will reduce chamber temps. Weaken spark. flame front will travel faster in a cooler chamber .timing advanced! So retard map. BUt water will increase compression ratio by taking physical space in the chamber. I wish I understood it more.
Quote from: DR SCHNITZEL;744477Only joking lol. Water is mysterious. It will reduce chamber temps. Weaken spark. flame front will travel faster in a cooler chamber .timing advanced! So retard map. BUt water will increase compression ratio by taking physical space in the chamber. I wish I understood it more.
Me too, I have read a few things from the past where they used it to increase aeroplane engine hp, and they were injecting so much water that water was leaking out of every orifice but the engine was still turning over and working.
Quote from: Grant Monkhouse;744484Me too, I have read a few things from the past where they used it to increase aeroplane engine hp, and they were injecting so much water that water was leaking out of every orifice but the engine was still turning over and working.
This is a complete and utter rubbish :Hammer
I inject as much water as the WW2 aero planes did and I have no water leaking out of every orifice :chat
It is an easy science, people just need to get into it, there is a whole forum dedicated to it with some of the smartest minds in this field contributing and posting about it //www.aquamist.com
Quote from: suba;744434I dont want to drag this off topic for the original poster, but I am very interested in why UK rotaries dont ever seem to run that much boost. On a GT30 or bigger turbo I can\'t imagine that intake temps are going to be much of a factor, as the turbo will still be efficient at 2 bar +, and when using a decent front mount I would have thought intake temps would be the same anyway.
I can see how there would be more heat generated by the turbo(s) themselves - but I doubt much of this would be transferred to the housings and rotors. I would have thought the reasons would be more related to how much the rotor tips and seals can reliably take....
You of all countries should be running much more boost than we do as your weather is so sh7thouse (nice for turbo\'s).
The turbo is a simple device, Water Injection is even simpler, combine the two and you will have power and reliability (amazing I know! :)) I have lost count of how many people have followed what I said then gagged over the advice for years after, spawning their own little cults of followers and in some cases quasi businesses using this "amazing technology".
It has all been done before, by much smarter people, all I am doing and have done for so many years is apply it to our heaps of sh7t and make a simple formula for people to follow, which takes ALL of the guess work and experimentation out of it..........
you boys have it all to easy.
Do not mean to post whore :o This is the link to Aquamist site LOL > http://www.aquamist.co.uk/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=1590&page=14
so rice how much money do we need to give you. for the kit the map and the knowledge?
Quote from: RICE RACING;744497This is a complete and utter rubbish :Hammer
I inject as much water as the WW2 aero planes did and I have no water leaking out of every orifice :chat
It is an easy science, people just need to get into it, there is a whole forum dedicated to it with some of the smartest minds in this field contributing and posting about it //www.aquamist.com
Honestly Peter it was in one of the pieces if Information through your website, unless I a remembering it wrong? I will check when I have my laptop. To show you.
I will apologise now though if I am wrong.
Quote from: DR SCHNITZEL;744550so rice how much money do we need to give you. for the kit the map and the knowledge?
Email him direct, I think it is a fair price for what you are receiving.
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Quote from: Grant Monkhouse;744551Honestly Peter it was in one of the pieces if Information through your website, unless I a remembering it wrong? I will check when I have my laptop. To show you.
I will apologise now though if I am wrong.
You may have looked at one paragraph where a test was continued on to see just how much water could be administered into an engine :2Confused 150% of the fuel flow has been tested. Some people I know did a thesis on WI on a nautral engine and feed through this amount in their tests too.
Long term it can dilute the oil in such massive qty\'s. :Giggle
I run anywhere up to 60% at certain loads (over many cars, and almost 2 decades now) and there is never any sign of "water comming out every orifice" or oil contamination.. :evillaugh These "moderate" ratios are fully proven and acceptable for our applications.:Thumbsup!
Yes that\'s the paragraph I was talking about. Knew I wasn\'t making it up, maybe I should have said it in a different way.
I know it was a test to to see how much they could basically get in there. I know WI on our car systems wouldn\'t do this.
Please excuse me going of tangent but Water Injection just gets me excited :spank
Don\'t worry, I started the topic and like discussion to expand into other things, it\'s good for the learning process
Water injection does work great, but you need a WELL built system if you are going to run high boost...
No one has mentioned what tips they use!?
I\'m certainly no expert, but chatting to an engine builder, he said that he ran his engine up to 3 bar and didn\'t crack the tips, but the housing, the idea was to keep increasing boost to find the weakest link
Think they were the aviation 2 piece
I have never understood WI - though all the knowledge I have is on piston engines, where it is mostly used to stop det in high boost applications - where det can\'t be stopped by retarding the ignition any further.
Mixing methanol and water can increase octane rating of the fuel, but you have to map to it, and in the event of a nozzle failing pop goes the engine....unless you start to run an ECU that can sense the failure and switch to another map...it all starts getting complicated.:Hammer
This "failure" scare campaign pushed by some is just total bullsh7t! :Hammer
FFS it is the most reliable thing on the whole car system (the way I make it) :3gears-lh
I mean if c^nts in 1940 could make aero planes reliable to not fall out of the sky and go pop then you would have to feel pretty hopeless not being able to run a water injection system in 2010 :chat
The simple fact is many more engine go poop running no WI (at far lower power levels) than any do without it :) she is free and easy horsepower :cool but best thing about it your car WILL run longest of all on WI :Laugh nothing of ANY alternative fuel type can match it :bandit
Water Injection, reduces Peak combustion pressure loads, it increases average pressure BMEP and thus power (it makes more power for less peak stress on the engine), it eliminates detonation, it allows up to 60% power increases without needing to change fuel types, it allows this without needing to increase charge cooling or engine cooling requirements as the water consumed is a total loss coolant (how it was originally discovered in the early 1900\'s)........ it is the best thing ever found in internal combustion engineering, but also the most mis understood and ridiculed by people with no formal qualifications on the subject. For our applications its the NIRVANA of power production, and ironically durability as well.
GET ON IT
Quote from: RICE RACING;744641I mean if c^nts in 1940 could make aero planes reliable to not fall out of the sky and go pop then you would have to feel pretty hopeless not being able to run a water injection system in 2010
lol, someone needs to sig this.
Quote from: Turblown;744601Water injection does work great, but you need a WELL built system if you are going to run high boost...
do you mean a block far from stock?
or an expensive ignition setup
So at 2.5 bar up to 60% of fuel volume additional as water.
??
assuming a 10 to 1 afr. accross peak torque and power band ( i know you could tune fuel out but not how much)
10 parts air
1 part fuel
.25 (roughly) of a part water
at peak torque and power smashed straight into your impeller??
thats quite alot of water. I just thought of these calcs in my head. has anyone got a better idea than this which i effectively made up.
From my engineering buddy at work...
I would personally be looking to inject post turbo using a fine nozzle at a higher pressure to get good atomisation. This will result in less engine corrosion.
If you have a fancy water injection system that allows you to vary the duration of spray then that would be good. I would install it and vary the duration of injection and therefore the quantity of water injected. I would then have a play bringing the engine up to detonation level and add water to pull it back.
I have not got any experience in calculating the water that would be required, but I don’t think it would be too tricky. If you have the amount of fuel injected per cycle per cylinder, (from the injectors). You can then work out the calorific value and therefore the energy that would be released. This combined with the pressure and change in volume you could then get an estimate for peak temperature. You could then see how much you need to being the temperature down by, and therefore work out the mass of water that would be required to bring this down (standard latent heat type calc)
This is really high end stuff as you will end up with additional pressure to the engine from the steam produced.
In terms of standard calcs I would not know where to look in terms of a book to get them out of. It would just be covered in a thermodynamics book.
I repeat, there is NEVER EVER ANY ENGINE CORROSION using WI, this is bullsh7t. I have never ever seen it on any engine in almost 20 years.
You boys don\'t need to work out anything, all of it has been done for you already :WaveBye you just need to buy the kit and fit it, simple :WaveBye
I actually tell people word for word how to do this and supply all the info in my thread on the drug growing crop watering site :)
I have been reading through your thread on the aquamist site, very good stuff. I notice you are using A turbo RPM measuring instrument. Immstruggling to think of it correct name. Are you using this for your test purposes on your SP? does using one of these instruments help in the decision of choosing the correct turbo for your engine etc? For instance so you know you are not over spinning the turbo(turbo too small) or you are not spinning it enough( turbo too big) to get the demands out of the turbo which you are asking for?
This is a bit off WI subject but have you every thought of using water/steam in the exhaust side of the turbo to create instant boost? I have heard of this being used by people that do tractor pulling that use high amounts of boost, pushing their turbos to limits, and where they often end up destroying turbos.
Turbine shaft speed sensor?
I do use a turbo speed sensor to feed in another parameter into my calculations and testing of various specifications of turbochargers (housings wheels I develope on the SP) and pass on that knowledge to customers. It is to quantify things like running no BOV, turbo speed, ultimate speed to avoid wheel rupture!, response *very important* and another way of mappign air flow through my system to work out BSFC and other immensly boring sh7t I do in my spare time. It one sensor amoung many I use all the time when I drive/test the car to check and calibrate various systems.
Would a HKS t spark be ok for 1.6 bar and a 150psi electric pump on near stock ports? I think thats what im going for with the nozzle just after or pre tub with minimal changes to the map.
i have MSD 6T at the mo and ive noticed RICE your ignition system is amazing (how much would that badboy cost)
I have two ignition systems I test with.
The first is stock based.
* HKS DLI, new NGK plug leads, New Mazd aleading coil.
Works good to 1.5bar boost (but not as much a tuning window due to lack of ign energy)
The other type is.
Rice Racing direct ignition, coil on plugs, ARC-2 tripple CDI boxes.
* Can work on almost any AFR and boost pressure.