Mazda Rotary Club

i installed a twin plate os giken clutch/flywheel and now my gearbox will not go in gear with the motor running.  with motor turned off it will go into all the gears, issue is just with motor running.  ive been dealing with this for some time now, and honestly have no idea whats wrong.  the following are things ive done or checked during the last few weeks(yes its been weeks:Hammer, work sucks:Laugh):
 
- replaced release bearing and pilot bearing
- bled master/slave cylinders
- adjusted clutch pedal
- triple checked clutch plates arrangment
- spacer betw slave cylinder and clutch folk for more throw...no luck
 
from what i can remember, this is everything ive done so far and still have the same issue.  what am i missing
 
 
any help will be much appreciated
thanks

no idea what it may be. you could always look through the check plate whilst someone operates the clutch to see what happens?
no too clued up on twin plates

has the clutch definitely, definitely been put in the right way round?  Sounds stupid, but seen it done, and similar symptoms...

Could also be pilot bearing - that happened to me - and the symptoms are just as you describe :(
 
If it is that, then the clutch has to come off again to get at the pilot bearing, plus they\'ll need a puller to get it out. The part itself is fairly cheap - but it\'s a pain to find out after the clutch swap :( :(
 
Did your twin plate clutch kit need a spacer or special clutch fork - as some of the twin units are right on the limit on the clutch pedal with the stock fork ?
 
Just noted that you\'ve replaced pilot and also have a spacer - doh - obviously not these then...

Just had a thought - does it need a standard release bearing - or a specific one?

probably wrong release bearing, ring OS Giken in this country for advice, RB Motorsport they can check the applications manual

Typically - it\'s listed as optional for FC3S, and appears to be a stronger bearing than stock, and the fork is also optional:
 
http://www.osgiken.net/products/racingmultiplate.html

Over on RX7 club, apparently stock Release bearing should work:
 
http://www.rx7club.com/showthread.php?t=282729

So if you can use the stock release bearing this would then point to either the Master or Slave cylinder being faulty , eg leaking past the primary seal in the piston, therefore the Slave cylinder Rod not having enough force to activate the fork to push against the pressure plate springs

Pump the clutch pedal fast to see if you can engage a gear, if you can then its more than likely the clutch slave cylinder.
Also peal the rubber back on the slave, if you find fluid then it more than likely needs replacing.

make sure the forks are not bent as this has been the cause of many a TII issue with gear selection.  try adjusting the rod under the dash at the foot pedal and make sure that its setup correctly, it may well need just that little bit more in length (don\'t we all Lol) but if the pedal looks like its fairly inline with the brake then maybe not that but Mazda manual does have dimensions from floor to pedal for the clutch.

thanks for all the help everyone.


im using a stocker release bearing currently.  as we found out, alot of rx7club claim this clutch and the twins work good together.  

i pulled the gearbox again on sat to make sure the pilot bearing was still good to go, and is.  clutch fork seems to be not damaged.  

was also thinking of changing the slave cylinder.  will order one tonight.  clive at mazdarotaryparts probably the best to get this?


thanks

Either that or ebay usa. I found that I could get both master and slave cylinder from there delivered for not much more than just the slave over here. Plus its always worth changing both if one is causing problems. They are 20yrs old or so now.

i normally order from mazdatrix but trying to get this thing running again for sunday.  i changed both before, so they are about 8 yrs old...but old enough to fail

If you changed both before i would think they should be good even after 8 years, as suggested id pull back the rubber boots and see if any fluids leaking out also the colour of the fluid in the reservoir darker usually means perished seals.

Hi Monte

From what you describe i would be sure something is in the wrong way as it sounds exactly like the issue i had when i did exactly that.   I know you said you checked it but thats where i would look if all the hydraulics are working

Totally agree and sounds like a classic plate in the wrong way around, its really worth that double check...........gearbox off I guess!!

Sounds like the parts for your clutch are in wrong,
All parts of you clutch should have a paint mark or scribed line to ensure correct alinement. One part or more not in the correct line will cause the problem you describe. Been there lol.

Keith

i havent been able to find any good info from os giken that shows what way they plates go in.  we could only find others pics or builds: someone installed one on a fd and said the spline area on the clutchs stick out one way and not the other.  install clutch discs with splines pointing towards the rear. so thats how i have them.  but before i installed the clutch we tried rearranging the plates and floater.  i have it arranged the only way it seemed to make sense.  

every time i used a clutch alignment tool so that splines are aligned.  since i havent been able to find any other info on how to arrange the discs ive left them where they sit.  dont really want to start swapn stuff around and chance breaking something permanently, with my luck.

but i too agree that something isnt right.  ive been searching and havent found much anything else.  this is really doing my head in, so thats why i finally came to everyone here.  dont suppose anyone has any hints as to how or where to find install info


thanks again for all the help

Give RB motor sport a ring, I\'m sure they will help you out.

Keith

on some clutches,  they actually have \'flywheel\' stamped on the plates and that side goes towards the flywheel,  not sure if OS stuff has it on.

called rb motor sport today.  very very helpful steve was.  i asked steve if he could help me figure out the correct arrangement of the clutch discs and he did just that.  he was nice enough to email me the install instructions and since they are not that clear, he also took a pic of the correct order of discs and floater.  

by that pic, i have 1 disc wrong.  hoping i can get to the shop after work tomorrow and hopefully drive the 7 home.  ill let everyone know what happens


thanks again for all the help in troubleshooting this issue

and still FAIL....after rearranging the discs the way steve showed me how they should, did not fix a thing.......i am truely lost

i reckon your slave cylinder seals are kaput still

Is this the White RX you have? That has been sat rather a long time.

Either way with the clutch fitted correctly whether the slave is working or not it still should not grind like it is.  Is it still grinding? When you took it apart did you spot where the grinding was taking place?
You sure this is the correct clutch for the car.

yep sure is the white fc pete.  had it on the road for maybe 5 wks before i started this twin plate mess.  yeah she still is grinding.  we didnt notice anything that caught our eye.  last time we dropped the gearbox i did a quick look around then swapped the disc and put it all back to together.  the clutch was in a running fc in the states.  got it from a friend in idaho.he swapped it out just to go a diff route.

so i found my old flywheel and bought a clutch from jimmy z\'s, just the exedy single plate with pressure plate and release bearing.  should have that tomorrow and will be putting it in on sat.  so will find out if its the twins or not.  i know everything worked with a stock configuration but doesnt with the twins.  so will see what happens when i put stock stuff back in...........

will let everyone know whats going on hopefully saturday

May be a silly question, is it a pull type. Or a push type. Just a thought.

Keith

the twins are a push type...for fc\'s

Quote from: monterx7;743440so i found my old flywheel and bought a clutch from jimmy z\'s,

Ah, so the flywheel didn\'t come with the clutch - are you sure they are compatible?  The flywheel only need be a few thou too thick for you to get the problems you describe.

http://www.mazdatrix.com/faq/flywheel.htm

the twin plate os giken did come with a flywheel. but now i will be using my stock flywheel and will be using this clutch
 
fc 3 piece exedy clutch kit
http://www.jimmys-rx7.co.uk/shop-service-fc-rx-7.html

well new single clutch kit is installed and still fooked......

bled the .... out of the hyrdro bits and thenk it actually worked for a few pumps...so im ordering new master and slave cylinder just incase, that way if its not one i have the other already....will let you know what happens in a week or 2.

Did you fit a longer slave cylinder arm for the twin plate clutch? im not using one on mine and the biting point is right at the bottom, I have an ORC 709 which come with a longer rod due to this, if the rod isn\'t short enough you aren\'t going to be able to move the plates apart....

Also, by grinding, do you mean the sound the clutch plates make when the pedal is down or do you mean the box is grinding? The clutch should rattle and sound like a bag of spanners when the pedal is down, should help diagnose if the clutch plates are correctly disengaging :)

didnt install a longer cylinder arm due to alot of people running the twins with everything else stock.  box grinding, when i had the twins in stalled they did have the normal rattling with clutch pedal pressed in.

cant believe u didnt do the master\\slave cylinder seals first before trying a different clutch :xconfused , doing a seal replacement is far easier job then changing the clutch and flywheel lol

didnt think of which was easiest.  the twins were something i just had lying around the garage but were very used.  so figured why not see if it is the twins and get a new clutch at the same time..........so where can i get a slave cylinder rebuild kit locally?

swapped out clutch master and slave cylinder with no luck at all......still grinding with motor running when trying to go into gear...but goes into gear with motor not running.  so now the only thing that hasnt been changed out is the gearbox...not so what the hell is going on in there......

any ideas?

Does this do this in every gear?  reverse gear?

If you are certain that the clutch disc and all other bits such as pressure plate, bearing are all new then there are a few more options left:

Air in the system
Worn pilot bearing
Wrong pedal adjustment

Does the grinding happen when you shift up or down?
Also, an extreme faulty synchronizer can cause an impossible shifting into a particular gear. However, when the affected gear is the first gear and the grinding sound only occurs when shifting from a stop position, but not when downshifting, its possible that the problem is too much clutch pedal “free play”. Free play is the distance that a clutch pedal moves before the clutch start to disengage. In a case of grinding sound occurrence, even when the clutch pedal is fully depressed, the clutch is not fully disengaged that is why when there is a grinding sound when shifting into first gear.

now that i read that pete, it only grind going into reverse but could not get it into any other gear.  i will go back and re-bleed it and play with pedal adjustment.  will post up my findings

thanks pete

well bled the master/slave 3 times...from full to low 3 times.....still nothing.  pulled the shifter and replaced the shifter bushing just to make sure the older ones werent screwing things up and of course nothing

Then i would say that its the pilot bearing, lot of work and you will need a puller if it is that. Its the only thing common now to all your problems with the old clutch and this one taking into account all the items that have been replaced/new.
More so if the gearbox was ok before.
The only other thing it can be and this was mentioned before is the clutch fork itself,these can and have got bent in previous cases of clutch problems.  If you have to take the box off then make sure your release bearing slides nicely along the shaft and thats its not sticking. Was the release bearing new?

im not sure about the fcs pilot bearing but on nearly every other car all you need is something that is a snug fit in the centre then pack the centre hole full of grease and hit your snug fitting punch in and the bearing will pop out

ive got the mazdatrix pilot bearing puller and installer so changing it out shouldnt be too much trouble.  i see where your coming from pete, i remember reading about how it may cause this issue and pulled the gearbox to find nothing wrong with the pilot bearing at all.  the pilot bearing thats in there right now is the third one since this all started.  and ive installed the bearings using this installer tool:

pilot bearing installer (http://www.mazdatrix.com/toolmisc.htm)


the pilot bearings and seal that im using are from the mazda dealer, and ive test fitted them on the gearbox before installing them on the motor.  

does anyone know how far/deep the pilot bearing should sit in the hole?

On the end of the pilot bearing is a seal, that needs to be doing its job and as long as that is tucked in nicely then that really sets how far the thing goes in. It does not have to go in all the way.
I never had a puller when I did mine and ended up cutting the thing out with a Dremmel, that really was not the best route but it worked. It was still one of the worse jobs I have done on the FC as there is very little room. A puller is by far the best option of which you have anyway. To be on the 3rd bearing though stinks of something else wrong, I will have a look to see if I have a spare clutch fork.

Not sure on the best way for you to go now as you have tried almost every combination of solutions and new parts that would fix this problem. Is there oil in the gearbox?
I am at Marham this weekend so drop me a text when you free and i will come over and help if you want?

using that mazdatrix pilot bearing installer puts it at the correct spot.  found some info and pics and seems mine is where most are....hopefully that makes sense:)

guess ill head to base and mess with the clutch pedal adjustment and see if that changes anything at all.  i hate pulln the gearbox just to see that nothing is damaged or missing.  theres gotta be something im missing here

Whenever you grind a gear does the sound normally come from the shifter area?

adjusted pedal both in and out with no luck at all.......im at a complete loss

Lets look at this logically:

1.  Was the old setup ok ie clutch and gearbox working as it should
2.  You installed a twin plate clutch but it grinds
3.  Replaced Clutch slave cyl
4.  Replaced Clutch master cyl
5.  Replaced pilot bearing
6.  Replaced clutch to standard
7.  Clutch adjusted and bled

So whats left:

1. Clutch Fork
2. Gearbox oil
3. Blockage of somesort in feed line? does it bleed well?
4. All the times you bleed it do you get lots of air indicating a leak or is it relatively air free?
5. One other thing to check, get someone to press the pedal and then you check to see how far the clutch fork is moving as viewing from above, make sure you get good movement. Check that the little piston in the slave is the correct length.  The slaves vary from TII to EGI but only in the offset of the mounting holes but i am not too sure on the piston/plunger thing itself. they do look the same internally.

Quote from: pdtaylor18;747549Lets look at this logically:

1.  Was the old setup ok ie clutch and gearbox working as it should
2.  You installed a twin plate clutch but it grinds
3.  Replaced Clutch slave cyl
4.  Replaced Clutch master cyl
5.  Replaced pilot bearing
6.  Replaced clutch to standard
7.  Clutch adjusted and bled

So whats left:

1. Clutch Fork
2. Gearbox oil
3. Blockage of somesort in feed line? does it bleed well?
4. All the times you bleed it do you get lots of air indicating a leak or is it relatively air free?
5. One other thing to check, get someone to press the pedal and then you check to see how far the clutch fork is moving as viewing from above, make sure you get good movement. Check that the little piston in the slave is the correct length.  The slaves vary from TII to EGI but only in the offset of the mounting holes but i am not too sure on the piston/plunger thing itself. they do look the same internally.

1. the old setup was fine (just needed replaced)
2. correct
3. replaced throwout bearing twice and acouple pilot bearing
4. replace clutch with standard
5. replaced master/slave cylinders
6. bled system
7. adjusted pedal


1. im trying to source a clutch fork now.  will buy from mazdatrix if i cant       find one.
2. the gearbox has new oil, will change on the next gearbox pull
3. clutch sys does bled well.
4. the only time i had any air was replacing cylinders
5. ive been trying to find out if there is a set distance that the fork has to move.  so far no luck.  but will measure next time i can borrow another set of hands.


since have to keep pushing the car to the shop and find a parking spot then push it back out, ill wait till i get a fork(or gearbox) till i get back underneath it.  the shop has lifts so much easier to do the work.  something else a friend of mine suggested was to make sure the throwout bearing is making good even contact on the pressure plate.  im open to any ideas that will help get this car back on the road.  


thanks again pete.  i appreciate you still kicking around my car issues and trying to help.

One thing else, when was the oil changed last? was it the right oil?  Wrong type of oil can cause a whole host of gearbox/clutch problems but none as extreme as yours but with so little else left to check then its worth a try for what it cost.

oil got changed out the first time we pulled the gearbox...and it is the correct oil weight...i sourced out another gearbox and fork and what not.  now just got to wait for the lifts to be open again at the auto hobby shop

and still fooked up...........

i swapped out a gearbox and still have the exact problem.  we installed the new/used gearbox without oil and it worked.  i didnt drive the car around or let it run for very long at all.  i moved the car forward and rev acouple times just a few feet each way.  so figured it was fixed.  put oil in the gearbox and this time it didnt work at all............

maybe the oil im using?????? does that even sound right???


well here is what im using
(http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh311/monterx788/rx7/file-18.jpg)

only stuff i can get my hands on thats close to where the car is.



any thoughts?

You need to see how much travel you have on your slave cylinder.
If there is enough travel (im sure someone here with the same setup will measure it) then you can count out from the pedal to the slave.

The reason why the gears are grinding when running but not binding when switched of is that your engine is turning your gearbox.

If you have ruled out the pedal system by measuring the travel on the slave and clutch by fitting a stock on then there is only the pilot bearing left.
I have had the same problem on 3 FD (but not fb\'s)  in the last 2 years and they all ended up being the pilot bearing.

or a bent fork

ive tried 2 different forks, pivot balls and several throwout bearings.  even swapped out master cylinder and slave with new ones from mazdatrix.  i doubt im installing the pilot bearing wrong, or maybe i am.  ill look into measuring the travel of the slave...

If you have covered everything else then it will be your slave cylinder, the slave wouyld have been the 1st thing i would have swapped out.

i think hes done that steve :

Quote. even swapped out master cylinder and slave with new ones from mazdatrix

Well there isnt anything left :S

I dont know if you have this on FC, but there is pipe from the brake Servo resorvoir on the FD that feeds the master clutch cyclinder with fluid, sometime these pipes perish causing and collapse inside causing problems, eg air into the clutch hydralic lines and loss of pressure, I assume when you bled the system there was no air and the rate of fluid being purged out of the bleed nipples was of good force indicating the pipes are not partially blocked or corroded in any way

Have you checked you are getting full travel on the clutch pedal?  And that *it* isn\'t bent?  (My nephew managed to bend his clutch pedal once by stomping on it in his DMs!).

yeah i adjusted the pedal to make sure i was.  

i keep going over everything in my head cause i know its gotta be something seemple and will slap myself when finally figured out

well its fixed.....i hope

made sure there was alot of grease on the pilot bearing and alittle bit of oil on the pilot seal and it works like normal now.  was hard to get in gear at first but now its good to go


hoping it acts right the next time i go to drive it

Fingers crossed for you mate. Glad your all sorted.

i had similar problems with the blitz twin plate on my gt4, especially from cold it never liked going into gear/felt very notchy, once the car had warmed up it was all good, i think they are a pain in the arse in general, i asked loads of questions on forums and i think its just how they are as they arnt designed for road use they are made for hardcore trackcars.

it wasnt the twin plate that was causing my issues at all.