Hello everyone!!! :D
I\'m going to fit a boost controller on my car (standard engine, \'99 spec sequential twins, blitz induction, straight 3" wxhaustt with HKS downpipe, V-Mount intercooler).
My 3 options are:
- boost controller kit for the Apex\'i Power FC: good to have everything on 1 display, but bad display to see values at a glance, expecially during day
- Apex\'i AVCR: I think the best (and more expensive) B.C. on market, awesome to set boost value in every gear...
- Blitz Dual SBC: maybe the best one for twins as it come with dual solenoid? And spec-S type could be ok (and cheaper) as it control up to 1.5 bar boost, enough for sequential twins
Which one will you suggest?
I\'m open to anyy advice... :chat :chat :cool
Whats the issue you are trying to sort? Boost controller won\'t do anything for creep on the twins, which I imagine you are getting with the straight through - you\'ll probably need to port your wastegate if you havent already.
Quote from: Aubec;741162Whats the issue you are trying to sort? Boost controller won\'t do anything for creep on the twins, which I imagine you are getting with the straight through - you\'ll probably need to port your wastegate if you havent already.
Mostly I\'ll fit a boost controller to better map the car, not to push on HP...
The Apexi ecu is the best controller for twins in my opinion.
Just get that setup right and it will be as good as it gets.
I have had cars come to me where people have said they can\'t get boost control on the twins with the Apexi,but I have never so far had one where I have not been able to get control of the boost.
Regards
Carl
Porting of the wastegate is not needed either.
Even on a full bridgeport the stack wastegate can control boost if done right.
Quote from: HaywardRotary;741171The Apexi ecu is the best controller for twins in my opinion.
Just get that setup right and it will be as good as it gets.
I have had cars come to me where people have said they can\'t get boost control on the twins with the Apexi,but I have never so far had one where I have not been able to get control of the boost.
Regards
Carl
You mean the boost controller kit for the Power FC, right?
I think he means the PFC itself - it controls the twins using the factory solenoids already.
I mean the Apexi ecu it self, you don\'t need anything else.
Regards
Carl
I remember pip telling me i needed a boost controller and i had a apexi pfc he had just mapped a few months after you mapped it but with no change in my setup. but i was non sequential. would this matter Carl?
Um?
I am probably the only person in the world who has tested so many FD\'s of all types and list a small selection them on my web page under the VBOX testing section.
http://www.riceracing.com.au/vbox-iii-testing-tuning.htm
You will see in the 90-140km/h tests of a typical 3rd gar power plot (actually showing you the boost control pattern) that the typical Apexi PFC control is average. http://img176.imageshack.us/img176/5562/kostas7ausstockwe2.jpg
By far and away the BEST controller for the factory twins set up is the Greddy Profec spec B I have tuned cars across the country fitted with these and nothing gives a better more consistent boost control pattern over both turbo\'s............ it absolutely DUMPS on the Apexi PFC control.
The WORST boost controllers are APEXi AVCR (worst rubbish I have ever wasted my time on!!!) and Turbosmart is almost as bad.
I have hundreds of data logs, I can\'t post all of them or host them as I have a life to live off the internet :Talking1 but if you want to believe someone about boost control on twins ask them to show you true vehicle logs off a track or road test (PFC data logs absolute minimum! though they lack in resolution and context) preferably somthing logging at 100Hz and then plot the boost pattern in say 3rd gear across engine rpm and vehcile speed, take a look at the track map and see how the response is and you will come to the same conclusion after you look at a few dozen that the Profec spec B is an amazing controller.
I use the Blitz SBC I color its better again in features but on a sequential twins ssytem its not as good, more suited to a very high powered single turbo car.
Hope this helps?
FWI
Poor boost control pattern really shows up in specific vehicle acceleration tests, it is real interesting to plot real time road HP v\'s boost control pattern and see the effects it has on acceleration
PROBLEMS with Apexi PFC boost control
The Apexi PFC controlling stock solenoids while O.K. suffers from over shoot, poor response, Altitude variation (set it up a hill and then drive down and watch your boost spike and over boost!), and it will not hold boost well (usually drops off allot after peak tq).
The plug in Apexi boost control module is a total waste of time.
Best off to get a dedicated boost controller and really make the most of your twin turbo\'s (for a whole 2 minutes before they start leaking oil !!!!) :rollin
bang for buck the Profec B spec 2 is hard to beat (c7nt of a name to remember though lol!!!)
Plus don\'t touch the add-on bit of kit for the PFC, its pants. Only good part of it is the 3bar sensor.
PFC Addon:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v233/shaunwil/dynorun.jpg)
Profec B Spec 2:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v233/shaunwil/dyno.jpg)
Very little changed between sessions bar the controller.
Shaun
I disagree Peter, I have found that properly setup the AVCR is very good.
Horses for courses I think.
Regards
Carl
Don\'t they make 2 completely separate bits of kit though ? I\'ve no experience of the AVCR, just the add-on for the apexi PFC.
Shaun
I spent about 5 hours on a AVCR on sequential twins and it was an abortion, I\'ll dig up some logs and post them. The customer took it to various other people after I told him it was crap and they could not sort it either. He binned it and put in a Greddy Profec B spec 2 (lol model changes each time I type it hahaha). Anyway he had perfect boost control from that point on. Apparently they do work well on single turbo\'s but I never bothered after that initial experience.
Could have been a one off I admit, but it was pretty sh7t hence my glowing review.
I\'ve asked my question because I don\'t have much experience with this.
We have putted a Greddy Profec on a rwin sequential turbo Supra, a sistem very similar to FD\'s one (I ws told the Supra sistem derivate from FD sistem): you can have a good control on boost but some problems of boost spikes in higher gear, expecially at full throttle.
I was intrigued by AVCR possibility to map boost in every gear in separate way, to avoid a problem like this.
Now I\'m more confused than before... I\'ve looked to Rice and Shaun graphics and I was impressed from the linearity of profec B.
@Rice: what were you problems with AVCR?
The 1st graph isn\'t the AVCR, there was another gadget that they made to plug directly into the PFC, it wasn\'t very good !
Go with the Profec, they are very good and easy to use, plus lots of people use them.
Shaun
Quote from: Kriss;742495I\'ve asked my question because I don\'t have much experience with this.
We have putted a Greddy Profec on a rwin sequential turbo Supra, a sistem very similar to FD\'s one (I ws told the Supra sistem derivate from FD sistem): you can have a good control on boost but some problems of boost spikes in higher gear, expecially at full throttle.
I was intrigued by AVCR possibility to map boost in every gear in separate way, to avoid a problem like this.
Now I\'m more confused than before... I\'ve looked to Rice and Shaun graphics and I was impressed from the linearity of profec B.
@Rice: what were you problems with AVCR?
We spent literally 4 hours mapping the AVCR, and data logging it through the VBOX3, each time the boost control was not even, and it was very bad *inconsistent*.
I will dig up the files and post them here, it was incurable by me and later I found out no one could get it to work on that customers FD.
By comparison his friend who had a Profec B spec 2 whatever was flawless, in every gear and across both turbo\'s.
As a guide you don\'t have to worry about mappable boost levels in different gears untill you are making well over a honest 400bhp (blow up terittory for twins anyway), then its beneficial to use lower boosts in especially second gear to avoid over powering the tires. It\'s only a single turbo feature worth using.
If you want that then I strongly recommend the Blitz SBC I color, I use it for speed dependant boost on my own car
and also combined with Race Logic Traction control.
If you know how to use the AVCR, it\'s a very good bit of kit. It does, however, need a degree in rocket surgery.
Profec for simplicity, however, my car always ran very well with just a PFC using the stock solenoids :)
SBC I colour offers, from what I\'ve seen, no massive increase in functionailty and performance from the lower models, it just has a stupid display to impress your mates and teenage girls with.
Quote from: RICE RACING;742571We spent literally 4 hours mapping the AVCR, and data logging it through the VBOX3, each time the boost control was not even, and it was very bad *inconsistent*.
I will dig up the files and post them here, it was incurable by me and later I found out no one could get it to work on that customers FD.
By comparison his friend who had a Profec B spec 2 whatever was flawless, in every gear and across both turbo\'s.
As a guide you don\'t have to worry about mappable boost levels in different gears untill you are making well over a honest 400bhp (blow up terittory for twins anyway), then its beneficial to use lower boosts in especially second gear to avoid over powering the tires. It\'s only a single turbo feature worth using.
If you want that then I strongly recommend the Blitz SBC I color, I use it for speed dependant boost on my own car and also combined with Race Logic Traction control.
My maximum target is a power output around 350 hp, I think is the best you can have from stock twins (if you don\'t have BNR upgraded ones, for example...)
My willing to put a boost controller is to better map the car and have a smooth power output along all the RPM.
I don\'t want a drag or time attack car, I prefer to drift corners.... ;)
I think I\'ll go with Greddy profec B, then...
Quote from: SiH;742573If you know how to use the AVCR, it\'s a very good bit of kit. It does, however, need a degree in rocket surgery.
Profec for simplicity, however, my car always ran very well with just a PFC using the stock solenoids :)
SBC I colour offers, from what I\'ve seen, no massive increase in functionailty and performance from the lower models, it just has a stupid display to impress your mates and teenage girls with.
Ah it combines the power meter within the boost controller (previously two separate screens) so that is a good function.
It has a really good data logger on it which is nice too.
The color change aspect is EXCELLENT as it can be an excellent WARNING INDICATOR especially when set in 2 parameter digital mode for large displays.
You can input quite a few aux channels to display and log into the one unit, I input AFR, Fuel pressure and both front and rear EGT\'s ;) another great feature.
Really excellent for using the power logging to have a quick run and look at the AFR across the rpm range, power and torque and boost, and its spot on if you calibrate it right^ I use it all the time when I don\'t have the VBOX3i hooked up or set to log etc. Really excellent tool.
It\'s fuzzy logic and constant boost trimming/learning for different ambient conditions is better than most other models and its rock solid, the speed dependent boost control is faultless.
By far and away an excellent controller that fits in the FD perfectly as well ;)
(http://www.mazdarotaryclub.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=50511&stc=1&d=1297673531)
Quote from: RICE RACING;742586Ah it combines the power meter within the boost controller (previously two separate screens) so that is a good function.
It has a really good data logger on it which is nice too.
The color change aspect is EXCELLENT as it can be an excellent WARNING INDICATOR especially when set in 2 parameter digital mode for large displays.
You can input quite a few aux channels to display and log into the one unit, I input AFR, Fuel pressure and both front and rear EGT\'s ;) another great feature.
Really excellent for using the power logging to have a quick run and look at the AFR across the rpm range, power and torque and boost, and its spot on if you calibrate it right
^ I use it all the time when I don\'t have the VBOX3i hooked up or set to log etc. Really excellent tool.
It\'s fuzzy logic and constant boost trimming/learning for different ambient conditions is better than most other models and its rock solid, the speed dependent boost control is faultless.
By far and away an excellent controller that fits in the FD perfectly as well ;)
(http://www.mazdarotaryclub.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=50511&stc=1&d=1297673531)
Resuming: Profec B if I want to go simple, SBC I-Color if I have money to spend... right??? :D :D :D :bandit
The Spec-S of the SBC is enough, for boost pressure up to 1.3 bar (considerng the twins)?
Or is better to go with this:
http://www.blitz-uk.co.uk/ProductItem-314.aspx (http://www.blitz-uk.co.uk/ProductItem-314.aspx)
as is "twin solenoid"? It\'s better to control sequential twins?
Mine is a Spec R, have used it to 2.2bar :3gears-lh
It\'s twin solenoid yes, this is for ultimate control, not specifically cause you have twins ;) They are a great controller, learn boost super fast, can use metric or US units for boost if you prefer....... its one of the best instruments in my car, and say again very handy.
Quote from: RICE RACING;742604Mine is a Spec R, have used it to 2.2bar :3gears-lh
It\'s twin solenoid yes, this is for ultimate control, not specifically cause you have twins ;) They are a great controller, learn boost super fast, can use metric or US units for boost if you prefer....... its one of the best instruments in my car, and say again very handy.
2.2 bars on twins or on single turbo? I knew that with twin turbo you can\'t go over 1 bar boost...
Quote from: Kriss;7426062.2 bars on twins or on single turbo? I knew that with twin turbo you can\'t go over 1 bar boost...
Single turbo.
On twins I have tested them to 1.5bar using the Blitz controller. Wanted to go more but car was not water injected so it was pointless and only had 4 x 850cc injectors so it was near its limits on petrol only.
Normal everyday setting on the single is 1.7bar :)
I\'ll try to find money for the I-Color... ;)