At a recent mapping session on a new engine my car was having issues with knock over 6,800 rpm - 13b single turbo fd3.
As a result of this the engine was then compression tested with the following results:
front - 7.1 8.0 7.4
rear - 6.2 6.5 6.5
Obviously these are way off what they should be, and there is a big discrepancy between the two rotors, which would indicate the issues when mapping.
The engine has now been pulled out as a result.
further info:
1. Stock mazda parts used - all new seals, springs etc. with PTS 2mm apex seals
2. Pre-mix run at 500ml per 50litres of V-power
3. Engine had done 990 miles before mapping after second oil change
4. Rotors and housings were used, but fully inspected before building up the motor
5. Engine was also streetported
Does anyone have any ideas as to possible causes? :confused:
who built/tuned the engine and what did they have to say about the figures?
it\'s being investigated at the moment, and I hope to get it all sorted without too much fuss, so I wont be posting up names - I just wanted comments as to suspected causes.
Quote from: suba;737988At a recent mapping session on a new engine my car was having issues with knock over 6,800 rpm - 13b single turbo fd3.
As a result of this the engine was then compression tested with the following results:
front - 7.1 8.0 7.4
rear - 6.2 6.5 6.5
Obviously these are way off what they should be, and there is a big discrepancy between the two rotors, which would indicate the issues when mapping.
The engine has now been pulled out as a result.
further info:
1. Stock mazda parts used - all new seals, springs etc. with PTS 2mm apex seals
2. Pre-mix run at 500ml per 50litres of V-power
3. Engine had done 990 miles before mapping after second oil change
4. Rotors and housings were used, but fully inspected before building up the motor
5. Engine was also streetported
Does anyone have any ideas as to possible causes? :confused:
hi I personally don\'t think premixing or streetporting is to do with low compression, I had a similar situation a while ago, the best advise would be, firstly do u have oil catch tank? If so, did u notice increase flow of oil in it, if u ever notice increase of oil in catch tank, often it\'s ur side seals, who r not either sealing good or the side seals are not cut to the right side, hence less compression and more loss of oil.. How was the starting of the car after rebuild- a first crank start or prolong cranking to start?? Wat seals were changed?? Did u change the oil rings and springs??u said used housings- how was the wear level on them?? Did the engine properly broken in?? Loads of factors but check those I mentioned, side seals if not cut to the right size to the corner seals does cause low compression on new rebuild..
Hope the info helps..
Very helpful - thanks.
All the seals and springs were brand new - nothing was re-used apart from a rotor and housing which were good on inspection.
catch tank was not yet connected when the car was mapped - it was on the to do list.
i was not present when the car was first turned over, so can\'t answer that bit.
990 miles breaking in would cover it I would have thought?
PTS apex seals are your problem, they are rubbish.
Put in stock with properly cut new side seals and you will not have the variations in compression like you had nor will you have degraded compression after running the engine for any length of time either.
I have an engine builder friend who went through the same thing with those exact same seals, he never ever will use them again nor recommend them to anyone.
I get many calls each week of people with exact same problem running that garbage in engines, the only solution is to throw them in the bin where they belong! Even if you ring PTS and complain about it they will tell you directly their crap seals are NOT intended to be used in any type of road car application.
I have physically seen them fall out of a rotor slot!!!! due to excessive wear :Hammer with only 10,000miles (less of use). They are rubbish mate.
If you are going to use metal apex seals the only ones to use are Mazda OEM. > http://www.riceracing.com.au/apex-seals.htm
Further to add.
When an engine is built properly on first cranking it WILL have less than a couple of percent deviation between chambers and front to rear, if it does not either your apex seals have been made in a back yard (read any of the ones not made by Mazda) OR your builder has used sub standard parts (outside even Mazda\'s weak specs) OR he has been very sloppy in cutting side seal clearances.
After 1000km running these small chamber differences balance out typically to within 2psi or less of each other, if it does not then its the paragraph above.
In the rotary engine compression thread on here I talk allot about porting and its influence on the actual figures you get and other factors to take into account, but so far as variations this is a big no no when looking front to rear or between chambers on any given rotor.
Good luck with it :Thumbs-up Hope you get it fixed properly.
Wow - that\'s the first bad report that I have heard about the PTS seals. They are not cheap either, and I have been led to believe that they are the best on the market.
All the parts used apart from the Apex seals should have been stock mazda parts - I bought and supplied all the bits, though I have not seen them go in the engine myself.
Why would the PTS seals be responsible? Is it not more likely that the side seals would be the issue?
What would you expect the compression figures to read, and how much variance between chambers and rotors would you deem to be acceptable?
Quote from: suba;738065Wow - that\'s the first bad report that I have heard about the PTS seals. They are not cheap either, and I have been led to believe that they are the best on the market.
All the parts used apart from the Apex seals should have been stock mazda parts - I bought and supplied all the bits, though I have not seen them go in the engine myself.
Why would the PTS seals be responsible? Is it not more likely that the side seals would be the issue?
What would you expect the compression figures to read, and how much variance between chambers and rotors would you deem to be acceptable?
No one of any credibility in Australia or the world for that matter uses PTS end of story. The only application where they are tolerable is when they are totally drowned in oil and run with methanol, anything else and they are rubbish. Way too soft, totally wrong material selection, no hardness to them (so no long term durability) vast variances in normalization so as soon as it goes into an engine they all bend like a banana to whatever shape and this is why you get gross chamber differences. They wear out so fast that its a common excuse by the manufacturer and builders who use them to state you need to do X amount of "run in".
This is not required on any properly made and specified apex seal like stock Mazda or a ceramic apex seal, only on rubbish soft seals will you see such an occurance.
You have to be totally useless to cut a side seal so badly to get the compression variations you saw on your engine, this can\'t really be done this badly but I suppose there is always some who excel at mediocrity ? The Apex seal and lack of conformity are the biggest causes to low compression in the rotary engine.
On a precision build it generally takes around 1000km for the side seal to fully bed into the corner seal and also for the corner seal to bed into its rotor holes also, after this occurs you will get basically even chamber readings.
For raod cars if you are using metal apex seals, Mazda items are the only proven ones to be using, they will take any power level you can make and will last the longest, will work on petrol, and wont need to have as much oil as your whipper snipper to last any decent length of time. :2Confused
Quote from: RICE RACING;738015PTS apex seals are your problem, they are rubbish.
Put in stock with properly cut new side seals and you will not have the variations in compression like you had nor will you have degraded compression after running the engine for any length of time either.
I have an engine builder friend who went through the same thing with those exact same seals, he never ever will use them again nor recommend them to anyone.
I get many calls each week of people with exact same problem running that garbage in engines, the only solution is to throw them in the bin where they belong! Even if you ring PTS and complain about it they will tell you directly their crap seals are NOT intended to be used in any type of road car application.
I have physically seen them fall out of a rotor slot!!!! due to excessive wear :Hammer with only 10,000miles (less of use). They are rubbish mate.
If you are going to use metal apex seals the only ones to use are Mazda OEM. > http://www.riceracing.com.au/apex-seals.htm
According to your link it shows OEM seals warping with use-age.That contradicts what you just said....?
I have seen seals warp and the engine shows really poor compression. It could very well be the culprit. I have never used PTS seals however.
Quote from: Turblown;738085According to your link it shows OEM seals warping with use-age.That contradicts what you just said....?
I have seen seals warp and the engine shows really poor compression. It could very well be the culprit. I have never used PTS seals however.
OEM is the longest lasting of all the Fe products, its the hardest thus it is most resistant to chamfering... there is no contradiction, they last many times longer than the pure banana backyard types that have no hardening process done to them and are made from totally non compatible materials for Mazda rotor housings.
Chamfer wear and warping are and can be two different things. OEM\'s will "warp" when not provided enough lubrication or in lubrication failure (no chamfering wear visible)... the banana backyard apex seals made around the world just do this much much sooner, as I have seen over the years of wasting my time trialing them.
:WaveBye
i can personally tell you the side seals were clearenced accoringly, to what all non race motors are done to
knock at certain rpms on the dyno cant be down to the engine build but some sort of electrical issue, not enough fuel or at worst a bad tune!
in regards to compression, the general rule of thumb is the larger a port, usually the lower the compression will read on a test.
c
Quote from: mx1311;738090i can personally tell you the side seals were clearenced accoringly, to what all non race motors are done to
knock at certain rpms on the dyno cant be down to the engine build but some sort of electrical issue, not enough fuel or at worst a bad tune!
in regards to compression, the general rule of thumb is the larger a port, usually the lower the compression will read on a test.
c
Sorry buts that\'s not true about compression. Even bridgeports and Peripheral Ports still give good compression figures as do major extend ports also. Having 6 bar is really poor you must admit!!!???
It is true that high knock can come from other issues including an old knock sensor that is more sensitive to knock, or ancillaries such as the power steering pump.
What is interesting is that the engine
should have the same porting front and rear and clearly compression is capable of being 8 bar as there is one reading that is that high, but having so much disparity either denotes a poor engine build or a problem has occured after the build during run in or tuning.
Does your engine builder warranty his engines? If so what kind of warranty?
Regards
Carl
should have gone to hayward suba
I dont thinks its the pts seals for the poor compression, I ran 3 years of hard driving on PTS seals on the street and drag strip with plenty of power.
But the original problem of high knock is due to a ignition or fuelling problem surely ?
My theory if there is a problem with fuelling and a problem with one the injectors is not delivering the correct volume this would lead to one rotor running lean causing excessive heat and not enough premix enteriing the housing causing execessive wear over the running in period.
Just checking AFR with a wideband can not detect if one rotor is lean as you would have one rotor running rich which would even out the afr reading.
To the Original poster where the injectors flow tested before the engine was refitted?
I always flow my and clean my injectors before a new engine build is put in better to be safe then sorry
Sorry, but I have to ask...
Is it high knock itself, or INDICATED high knock via the knock sensor?
If it\'s the later there\'s a better than evens chance that it\'s the sensor thats rubber ducked!
graeme
Quote from: trotter;738109Sorry, but I have to ask...
Is it high knock itself, or INDICATED high knock via the knock sensor?
If it\'s the later there\'s a better than evens chance that it\'s the sensor thats rubber ducked!
graeme
^^ What he said ^^
My knock sensor wiring at the little plug where the single wire becomes shileded was very badly corroded. Also, since the knock sensor is just a *sensitive* tuned microphone and required a good ground contact also to operate properly - what about engine earthing...
An oscilliscope reveals many sins in the loom....
Quote from: BlitzBoy;738097I dont thinks its the pts seals for the poor compression, I ran 3 years of hard driving on PTS seals on the street and drag strip with plenty of power.
Havent you just stripped your engine and found that your rear PTS seals have uneven wear and are mullerd and the fronts are ok ?
Just trying to get a picture as im trying to decide what to use in my project.
Also as other have echoed here, iv found that if its knock via the sensor then it can also be a faulty sensor or even faulty power steering producing a noise that a temperamental sensor detects.
Mark - the 1600cc secondary injectors are only a year old, but in answer to your question they have not been flow tested to my knowledge. the external swirl pot was also recently installed.
The loom was cut back for the single turbo, and I asked that if anything looked \'iffy\' that it was to be replaced.
I believe that the knock was detected via the PFC commander, and I can accept that this reading might have been incorrect - though this would not account for the low compression figures from the engine, which is the issue that I want to be investigated and sorted out.
Quote from: steve garbutt;738113Havent you just stripped your engine and found that your rear PTS seals have uneven wear and are mullerd and the fronts are ok ?
Just trying to get a picture as im trying to decide what to use in my project.
The fronts showed uneven wear, but had I had full even compression on both rotors, the uneven wear was due to apex seal jumping before the exhaust port, needs more of a bevel to prevent this.
Im not going PTS seals in future as they will not work with the full bridge port Im looking at.
The main reason why people go PTS seals on race type engines so if you do get det they will bend and not break therefore not taking out your housings and plates and turbo, and to be honest I am quite pleased how they performed, still running a 10 second quarter on its last run in anger before the winter.
Quote from: suba;738120Mark - the 1600cc secondary injectors are only a year old, but in answer to your question they have not been flow tested to my knowledge. the external swirl pot was also recently installed.
.
So you didnt ask for your primary injectors to get flow tested and cleaned, these are the injectors that get used the most when cruising and running in.
I would defo get this done now whilst the engine is out, get all four done.
At a recent mapping session on a new engine my car was having issues with knock over 6,800 rpm - 13b single turbo fd3.
As a result of this the engine was then compression tested with the following results:
front - 7.1 8.0 7.4
rear - 6.2 6.5 6.5
Obviously these are way off what they should be, and there is a big discrepancy between the two rotors, which would indicate the issues when mapping.
I have never seen those compression figures cause a car to knock, it would be interesting to know if your idle vacuum post tuning is the same as before at the same rpm and AF.
A standard knock sensor is not worth talking about and should not be used for tuning, you say issues at high revs do you mean det and then the knock sensor was looked at?
just reading through this ...if the tuner noticed high knock why would they comp test the car unless they knew it had det......
hmmmmm sounds like they reliased and then thought oh fduk.....better check.
Just stating what i think it looks like...if i\'m wrong then apologies to all.
On the topic of knock and Shell V-Power.
I do not use this fuel anymore, I had a situation about 6 months or more ago now where I was doing heat soak testing and the V-Power had caused pinging. I found out through much research later that V-Power is one of the more rubbish fuels around (no guarantee of octane) and also it degrades very quickly. Depending on local markets too it is "cut" with a raft of other things to make up the estimated 98 oct rating too...... After finding all this out I switched to BP Ultimate, the BP while not making the same power as the Shell (marginally less) has not had any problems in any conditions I subjected to in trials ;)
FWIW something to consider.
Quote from: RICE RACING;738227On the topic of knock and Shell V-Power.
I do not use this fuel anymore, I had a situation about 6 months or more ago now where I was doing heat soak testing and the V-Power had caused pinging. I found out through much research later that V-Power is one of the more rubbish fuels around (no guarantee of octane) and also it degrades very quickly. Depending on local markets too it is "cut" with a raft of other things to make up the estimated 98 oct rating too...... After finding all this out I switched to BP Ultimate, the BP while not making the same power as the Shell (marginally less) has not had any problems in any conditions I subjected to in trials ;)
FWIW something to consider.
For me the experience has been the reverse. I use a mixture of Tesco Momentum (99 RON) or Shell V Power. Both fuels seem fine with the current tune, but the BP fuel is noticeably \'rougher\' - I don\'t push the car if I ever have to put that stuff in the tank.
Agree with what you say about the fuel\'s \'going off\' - I think a lot of the higher octane fuels have very volatile additives in them, and if left sat for any time they will degrade and lower the octane. Mine never gets the chance - I\'d empty a tank in a week no problem. :Giggle
Quote from: Prof;738241For me the experience has been the reverse. I use a mixture of Tesco Momentum (99 RON) or Shell V Power. Both fuels seem fine with the current tune, but the BP fuel is noticeably \'rougher\' - I don\'t push the car if I ever have to put that stuff in the tank.
Agree with what you say about the fuel\'s \'going off\' - I think a lot of the higher octane fuels have very volatile additives in them, and if left sat for any time they will degrade and lower the octane. Mine never gets the chance - I\'d empty a tank in a week no problem. :Giggle
Yeah fuel variability is just a total arse, regardless of what type/brand you gag over...... this is why I water inject all turbo cars @ the end of the day.
Chasing power n .... like a homo on a dyno on X boost etc is gayer than Elton John in assless chaps waving a dildo in the air. It\'s far better to run WI and more boost and ironically a metric dic load more safety :2Confused but you learn this as you get older.
Quote from: HaywardRotary;738093Sorry buts that\'s not true about compression. Even bridgeports and Peripheral Ports still give good compression figures as do major extend ports also. Having 6 bar is really poor you must admit!!!???
It is true that high knock can come from other issues including an old knock sensor that is more sensitive to knock, or ancillaries such as the power steering pump.
What is interesting is that the engine should have the same porting front and rear and clearly compression is capable of being 8 bar as there is one reading that is that high, but having so much disparity either denotes a poor engine build or a problem has occured after the build during run in or tuning.
Does your engine builder warranty his engines? If so what kind of warranty?
Regards
Carl
Carl, i looked at a car that had been bridgeported and built by you, blue fd in Oxorfd, cat c damaged, the chaps name escapes me atm
compression test after 1600 miles was low 7\'s to mid 6\'s on 1 rotor and low 6\'s to high 5\'s on the other,
i remember the diff being a maximum of 1.3 bar, from front to back rotor.
we called you up there and then and you said it was what you expected and not too worry, you\'d still be willing to warrant the motor but wouldnt tear it down because of those figures.
so i dont understand how you can say having 6bar in really poor here when you told me high 5\'s where fine,
Quote from: gazzgazz;738267Carl, i looked at a car that had been bridgeported and built by you, blue fd in Oxorfd, cat c damaged, the chaps name escapes me atm
compression test after 1600 miles was low 7\'s to mid 6\'s on 1 rotor and low 6\'s to high 5\'s on the other,
i remember the diff being a maximum of 1.3 bar, from front to back rotor.
we called you up there and then and you said it was what you expected and not too worry, you\'d still be willing to warrant the motor but wouldnt tear it down because of those figures.
so i dont understand how you can say having 6bar in really poor here when you told me high 5\'s where fine,
Maybe it was based on mileage on the engine - this engine has only done about a 1000 - so the figures aren\'t good - after a run in the compression will be as good as it\'s going to get. What mileage was on the engine you were looking at ?
Quote from: Prof;738287Maybe it was based on mileage on the engine - this engine has only done about a 1000 - so the figures aren\'t good - after a run in the compression will be as good as it\'s going to get. What mileage was on the engine you were looking at ?
I belive his post says 1600 miles which is more or less the same?
Quote from: gazzgazz;738267Carl, i looked at a car that had been bridgeported and built by you, blue fd in Oxorfd, cat c damaged, the chaps name escapes me atm
compression test after 1600 miles was low 7\'s to mid 6\'s on 1 rotor and low 6\'s to high 5\'s on the other,
i remember the diff being a maximum of 1.3 bar, from front to back rotor.
we called you up there and then and you said it was what you expected and not too worry, you\'d still be willing to warrant the motor but wouldnt tear it down because of those figures.
so i dont understand how you can say having 6bar in really poor here when you told me high 5\'s where fine,
Its called double standards and being a hypocrite :Nono!
What he said to you must have conveniently slipped his mind... selective memory
Quote from: Rzla;738293I belive his post says 1600 miles which is more or less the same?
Didn\'t spot that - doh :p
I know a car built by jaydee, the compression on that car is still above 8s and the idle on that car makes me feel like selling my 20b.. The car by the Grace of God works perfect and the compression is look, having said that the engine was built over two years ago.. So saying that having 5 and 6 does not look normal.. I just talking from experience.. Carl is expert and knows wats right..
Syed
Sorry meant compression looks good and perfect.. I rate jaydee for builting that car...one of my favourite Fd that has been built to precision...
As for fuel in this country Pete we have found that Shell V power is pretty consistent,but I have heard the bad reports from Australia so maybe it\'s a country thing.
Regards
Carl
Hi Gary,
The car in question had an issue with compression that was reported to me by you, since I said that I would waranty it then why should you have to worry? I would have liked to do the compression test myself but that did not happen. if after that the test was still the same I certainly would have done something about it,but until I personally saw the results it wouldn\'t have been torn down, and we allway\'s compression test in front of the customer so they can see what we are doing.
I have done compression test\'s and noted vastly differing results from other people\'s results and found that it is allway\'s best to do it yourself and then you know the animal at that time.
I remember being at rotorstock a few years back and watching someone doing comp test\'s and charging people for it,I remarked to the person concerned that he should give the money back to those who had it done at the time because it was being done wrong!!! They weren\'t opening the throttle on any cars they were doing it on! so effectively giving false readings and some people were being told they needed rebuilds when they didn\'t.
Recently we compression tested a car over a few months that was built by someone else,it has 12,000 miles on it and was not used for some time, before tuning it was in the 6 bar range,since tuning though the compression has consistently gone up from 6 bar to 7 bar and now just under 8 bar,all down to decent tune and regular use. Suprising eh? But it is a fact.
The main thing that really varies compression on a rotary is not porting but the type of seals used. one piece give much lower static compression than two piece.
That having been said one piece with lower compression do not necessarily mean a bad engine.
Quote from: Ed_RX7;738213just reading through this ...if the tuner noticed high knock why would they comp test the car unless they knew it had det......
hmmmmm sounds like they reliased and then thought oh fduk.....better check.
Just stating what i think it looks like...if i\'m wrong then apologies to all.
I was there when it was being mapped, and they were at a loss at to why there was knock, even with timing pulled out as much as possible - hence the compression test.
Quote from: suba;738349I was there when it was being mapped, and they were at a loss at to why there was knock, even with timing pulled out as much as possible - hence the compression test.
In tuning hundreds of rotaries I have come across the odd occasion where something similar has happened. One of those was later identified to be where the owner (self mechanic!) had rewired his coils incorrectly (low tension side) and basically it was firing the Trailing pug before the Leading plug! Checking leads obviously had no influence as it was in the harness!
This could be one reason for unexplained knock (among many!) but just an idea of what to look at.
No amount of timing reduction or drowning the engine in excess fuel would stop the knock from happening at ~6000rpm.
In one other case I had another customer who had the exact same thing,a nd it was traced down to a car alarm! of all things! which was spliced into the ECU, changing the loom cured it. :2Confused
These are but two "odd ball things" that have happened over many years, but are things that could and did happen.
Quote from: HaywardRotary;738341Hi Gary,
I remember being at rotorstock a few years back and watching someone doing comp test\'s and charging people for it,I remarked to the person concerned that he should give the money back to those who had it done at the time because it was being done wrong!!! They weren\'t opening the throttle on any cars they were doing it on! so effectively giving false readings and some people were being told they needed rebuilds when they didn\'t.
Recently we compression tested a car over a few months that was built by someone else,it has 12,000 miles on it and was not used for some time, before tuning it was in the 6 bar range,since tuning though the compression has consistently gone up from 6 bar to 7 bar and now just under 8 bar,all down to decent tune and regular use. Suprising eh? But it is a fact.
Haha sorry for my bluntless but that would be Rixio, beer Saturday night and all that haha
hes a smashing guy :Ladys-man
but crap at compression tests haha
Quote from: HaywardRotary;738342The main thing that really varies compression on a rotary is not porting but the type of seals used. one piece give much lower static compression than two piece.
That having been said one piece with lower compression do not necessarily mean a bad engine.
What would you expect an engine running PTS 2mm apex seals to show as far as compression is concerned?:xconfused
Quote from: suba;738776What would you expect an engine running PTS 2mm apex seals to show as far as compression is concerned?:xconfused
Not very much :flamed
I have a few on file (3500km old) showed on average -10psi or more less than a stock Mazda seal, and after 5000km the apex seal wore down so much it fell out of it rotor groove .......
Not a nice thing for you to read, but like I said before I will say if you ring Glovers and complain they WILL tell you "they were NEVER made nor intended to be used in road car applications" and they will give you EVERY EXCUSE under the sun why they wear out so fast and so on. Lots of people get get sick of replacing them at every oil change interval :rollin
Stick with mazda apex seals :Thumbsup! there is nothing wrong with them and they last 100 times or more longer.
A bit of an update on this:
on stripdown and inspection - Rear housing scored (now replaced), some marks by the plug holes on rear housing (heat related?), and and hairline crack in a cornerseal (again rear housing).
Any more ideas chaps? Ignition / fuel related?
Next port of call is to get the engine comp tested before it\'s back in the car I guess?:Thumbs-up
Corner seal cracked would denote a detonation episode.
Regards
Carl
Ive seen this all before... Its the apex seal blame.... inmho you cant go wrong with a set of mazda seals and a good builder..
sounds like rear went lean and saw det, as I said before flow test the injectors
Quote from: 12at;741202Ive seen this all before... Its the apex seal blame.... inmho you cant go wrong with a set of mazda seals and a good builder..
Well in this case the apex seals have actually done their job and saved the engine components from the det episode and not damaged the plates or spat a seal through the turbine housing of the turbo. So in this case poor compression was not due to the seals fault but due to a fuelling problem in the rear rotor imo
This forum is mad.
It seems it is starting to become informative again after an episode of tosh. another good thread .
with comp figures as random as that i would check all side seal clearances one at a time. seems to me like they have not been clearanced correctly hence the difference in comp on every face.
Another PTS horror story
Spoke with a customer last week who contact me out of desperation, his story as follows.
First engine build on PTS engine failed on initial rolling road dyno tune!
Engine taken out and sent to another "specialist" who put in new PTS along with all recommendations by Peter Glover (backyard maker of this sh&t product).
Engine literally drowned in degummed caster oil as per PTS instruction, and fuel mixed with 10% methanol to aid longevity. Made 585bhp @ 8500rpm on 20psi boost (reputable engine dyno), this is a road car that is street raced on ocassion. Now remember this is pretty low duty maximum power use in the scheme of things.
Exactly 2000km of road running the engine is trash again (very low compresion and the seals are f7cked AGAIN) and PTS simply say "they are NOT road suitable apex seals and we dont ever sell them as such!" and hang up the phone LOL.
These pieces of sh7t DO NOT LAST IN ROAD CARS at high power!!! I have seen this and been told it many times by people who are just sick and tired of constantly wasting time taking engines in and out, and then paying to repair something that should still be running. Its a false economy, you are actually paying a metric dick load more constantly fixing something that on stock Mazda apex seals would still be running :rollin
An update on this:
engine is now back in the car with replaced corner seal and new rear housing, I\'ve kept the PTS apex seals as I dont want the additional expense of replacing them at this time. If I get 20-30,000 miles from them then I\'m happy with that before a strip down and inspection.
It was compression tested cold before being installed - injector were also flow tested and cleaned, though the reading from them were fine. Compression was fine, and consistent between rotors and chambers.
I\'ll put 200 miles on the engine to bed in the seals before mapping is finished.:Thumbs-up
Keep us updated with a running log of exactly how much performance work you do at high power (to get an idea of the stress level they are under for your targeted engine life) and also a running log of the engine compression, test it every 2000 miles or so.
:driving
Quote from: RICE RACING;742304Another PTS horror story
Spoke with a customer last week who contact me out of desperation, his story as follows.
First engine build on PTS engine failed on initial rolling road dyno tune!
Engine taken out and sent to another "specialist" who put in new PTS along with all recommendations by Peter Glover (backyard maker of this sh&t product).
Engine literally drowned in degummed caster oil as per PTS instruction, and fuel mixed with 10% methanol to aid longevity. Made 585bhp @ 8500rpm on 20psi boost (reputable engine dyno), this is a road car that is street raced on ocassion. Now remember this is pretty low duty maximum power use in the scheme of things.
Exactly 2000km of road running the engine is trash again (very low compresion and the seals are f7cked AGAIN) and PTS simply say "they are NOT road suitable apex seals and we dont ever sell them as such!" and hang up the phone LOL.
These pieces of sh7t DO NOT LAST IN ROAD CARS at high power!!! I have seen this and been told it many times by people who are just sick and tired of constantly wasting time taking engines in and out, and then paying to repair something that should still be running. Its a false economy, you are actually paying a metric dick load more constantly fixing something that on stock Mazda apex seals would still be running :rollin
By comparison to this story (on soft backyard made seals), on my own stock std 13B-REW after 8000km+ of very hard consistent testing over 2 years my engine is still within 10% of its initial 1800km run in compression test ;) That is well over 4 times the life! and its been tested on a much higher duty cycle (higher average time at full power) which is within 30bhp between both engines. <
Though mine has much more "higher" mid range power so in fact is under more "load" than this one that can\'t make it past 2000km when used to any great extent even just as a road car.
As fully documented and posted here in my water injection thread > http://www.aquamist.co.uk/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=1590&page=14
I shall certainly be keeping tabs on the engine - it\'s not a power monster, around 350-360 at the wheels at around a bar of boost on a To4E / S :Thumbs-up