Hi Guys
I am aware about the benefit and draw backs of the Doweling..I have read the post of Rice Racing on RX7 Club and read many thoughts on doweling on Aussi forums... I want know what our club members thinks of a dowelling?? Someone was saying to me I should go for studs not doweling and someone was saying that doweling is not needed...
I am going with my builder/tuners advise as I have a complete faith in the advice of my builder and tuner:god, and there is no way i ever thought that i would go against it..However, I would like to see how many people share the same thoughts as his.. and how many people divert from that advise
Cheers
Syed
I am looking for general perception about doweling...everyone is welcome to comment..
Regards
Syed
From what I understand. Doweling is not really needed unless your running 1000HP plus.
I can only think that you would need doweling if your running huge boost or high rpm or both?
I share the same thoughts as above
cheers
Surely its more dependant on the amount of torque being generated, plus the pressures within the chambers.
I belive Kev constructed his tripple with a quarter inch plate across the base.. i imagine that would go some way to address any force moments... :Giggle
Quote from: Brett;735356Surely its more dependant on the amount of torque being generated, plus the pressures within the chambers.
I belive Kev constructed his tripple with a quarter inch plate across the base.. i imagine that would go some way to address any force moments... :Giggle
Yes I believe he did and it is by far the cheapest, easiest thing to do. And as I hope keV should easily crack the 1000HP with his monstrous setup?!
High rpm would be the part of the equation for the increased force moments?
I think doweling or quarter inch plating an engine is only going to be beneficial however you look at it. It\'s just a case of do you want to pay for it.
I would use the plate method for cost personally if I was looking for those type of HP numbers but if had a triple I would look at doweling and getting dry sumpped, if it was a racing car that is and I wasn\'t concerned about cost
Who is keV guys new to me??? Since u guys know I have triple, I was told to get dowling done..I don\'t know whether people wud agree with me or not but when a sever detonation occurs, nothing stops engine from twisting- whether it b a doweled or stud engine..so conclusion can b that doweling does not eliminates complete twisting but offers little protection against twisting??
Wud u guys agree??
Syed
If you make something stiffer, then it must be less prone to twist. The point is, when you get detonation, that force has to go somewhere. Usually that\'s apex seals, but with the new twist rather than break seals that we see more and more of, they will let go gently without cracking and taking housings with them.
I could see a situation occurring when an engine bombs so bad that it will actually crack the housing or iron, finding any weekness that\'s there.
On the FC blocks, they mount in the middle, so there is a large twisting force when you take off from a standing start, through the gearbox / bellhousing and applied on the rear half of the engine. The rear irons received some modifications around the oil pedestal as this dowell seat was a weak point.
I guess if your engine builder is recommending it - go with their decision.
Depends on power levels, boost pressures, fuel being used, tuning etc etc, but remember Ross\\Dragon with his undowelled 13B cracked 9.1 at the high end of 150 terminals.
Personally IMO anything up to 600bhp you dont need dowelling or Studs.
Plenty of cars in the US doing 9 sec quarters and over 140 terminals with no doweling or studding.
If your engine builder has experiance of producing high power rotaries that have achieved low ETs and high terminals on the drag strip go with the advice of your engine builder.
I have thick baffle plate mounted between the keg and the sump pan to help stop the twisting force, made by Reworx
I dont know much about dowelling, never needed to do it myself.
But I know back along Carl Hayward used to say that any engine using more than 1 bar of boost had to be dowelled, you maybe able to find some old posts about it on here.
ill agree with ross here
imho by adding extra dowels you are reducing strength of the irons as you are removing material to allow the dowel to be fitted
oversize studs create the same problem and if tolerences are too tight plates will crack at the slightest bit of det (which you always get when tuning a car to extremes where you think studs and dowels will be required)
last motor i put together was for rob and is still going strong at 1.8bar of boost and 700+hp and has no dowel\'s or oversize studs, 100 odd dyno pulls and countless low 10\'s
Quote from: DRAGON;735429I dont know much about dowelling, never needed to do it myself.
But I know back along Carl Hayward used to say that any engine using more than 1 bar of boost had to be dowelled, you maybe able to find some old posts about it on here.
Ross did you end up bending/twisting your e-shaft when trying to beat your time?
I can\'t remember where I read about that, may have been on one if your max power features?
It was at TOTB on a very hot day, I believe it was down to oil temps more than anything, and yes the shaft did bend and take the engine out, only time it ever blew.
Would everyone agree that 1/4 inch plate would be more beneficial to Mir\'s needs?
Instead of taking material out of the engine components, he would be adding material onto the bottom of the block to stop any twisting?
Quote from: DRAGON;735493It was at TOTB on a very hot day, I believe it was down to oil temps more than anything, and yes the shaft did bend and take the engine out, only time it ever blew.
That\'s some seriously impressing thing to do though! I would have kept it as a mantel piece ornament to show people what can happen.
How long did you run the standard box for?
Quote from: Mir;735362Who is keV guys new to me??? Since u guys know I have triple, I was told to get dowling done..I don\'t know whether people wud agree with me or not but when a sever detonation occurs, nothing stops engine from twisting- whether it b a doweled or stud engine..so conclusion can b that doweling does not eliminates complete twisting but offers little protection against twisting??
Wud u guys agree??
Syed
Kev is kevyorks here on the MRC, one of the moderators. You should try getting touch with him for some advice although his 20b is in a Cosmo which has done a full cage and 9" back half drag car all by himself. Very impressive work, as I went over to look at his car last year.
Quote from: Grant Monkhouse;735496Kev is kevyorks here on the MRC, one of the moderators. You should try getting touch with him for some advice although his 20b is in a Cosmo which has done a full cage and 9" back half drag car all by himself. Very impressive work, as I went over to look at his car last year.
Has his car been on the drag strip? Can\'t remember seeing a Cosmo run at Santapod?
Don\'t forget about the x2 GT4088 bolted to it too :D
Kev\'s car will be a real monster when it finally gets done. Very much a work in progress. Think he was really busy at work last time he was around.
Shaun
Quote from: Rex_FTW;735505Has his car been on the drag strip? Can\'t remember seeing a Cosmo run at Santapod?
Hopefully it may run this year (Oh I wish thats the case) He usually brings to to Rotorstock but has only started doing the cage and tubbed back end middle of last year. He owns his own tube bender. Kev is a very capable at DIY !
Shaun
Guys I really appreciate everyones input, I m obliged.. So there are following comments! Dowels were not needed even the car was 700hp, but blitzen put 600hp mark! Some ppl suggested doweling is good.. So I have very mixed messages i.e Hayward speaks for doweling over 1 bar and keV is running a cross plate in his engine-no dowelling.I agree that if u dowel the engine, the internal parts are weaken, but is that dangerous-I mean has anyone experienced any problem with doweling? It\'s too late for me as my engine is already dowelled, up and running.. May get it tomorrow.. So the information I m gethering is good for me that I can look out for those issues which may generate from dowelling, so plz keep posting ur comment!
Regards
Syed
guys Once again I really appreciate everyones input
Isn\'t Kev the MRC Chairman? Either way his Cosmo is a proper animal and he\'s done tonnes of the work himself. He apparently reduced his gearbox to scrap with the sheer power of the thing after fitting new headers, prompting him to go for the 9" rear axle and drag set up.
Quote from: Will66;735512Isn\'t Kev the MRC Chairman? Either way his Cosmo is a proper animal and he\'s done tonnes of the work himself. He apparently reduced his gearbox to scrap with the sheer power of the thing after fitting new headers, prompting him to go for the 9" rear axle and drag set up.
He actually just took the straight through exhaust system off at the end of the down pipe as even though it was an unrestricted system it was causing too much back pressure, once removed he put his foot down (Car still not mapped properly, running on wastegate spring pressure by the way at this time) in second gear he sheared the gear box!! Very funny. Standard fd gear box with strength modification I beleive.
He has gone to a powerglide gear box now with the 9" rear end. Really can\'t wait to see it running again. Also might bribe him so I can go and see it getting dyno\'d.
Quote from: shaunwil;735508Hopefully it may run this year (Oh I wish thats the case) He usually brings to to Rotorstock but has only started doing the cage and tubbed back end middle of last year. He owns his own tube bender. Kev is a very capable at DIY !
Shaun
I have been over to where kev has his car and the work he has got done is top notch. It is on it\'s wheels and he is doing the tin work on it, I spoke to him a couple of weeks ago about a few things for my car and he is just so busy at work, hasn\'t had a day off in months.
It\'s a monster of an engine, I\'ve followed his thread with interest and I look forward to seeing it run in anger. A Cosmo is a rare and beautiful thing and a drag one is even more so.
the requirements of 20b\'s is gonna be different to that of a 13b\'s due to it being so much longer (more leverage) and a different mounting point.
Quote from: Will66;735520It\'s a monster of an engine, I\'ve followed his thread with interest and I look forward to seeing it run in anger. A Cosmo is a rare and beautiful thing and a drag one is even more so.
Yes they are but there isn\'t much Cosmo left. Just the outside bit and lots and lots of tube!!
I would have a Cosmo any day, especially the one that Carl has.
Carl if you read this. Fancy a swap? My kidney for your Cosmo?:Laugh
Quote from: antnicuk;735521the requirements of 20b\'s is gonna be different to that of a 13b\'s due to it being so much longer (more leverage) and a different mounting point.
Isn\'t this why 20bs have the thick centre plate? Doweling the engine is surely beneficial to the block as whole whereas the drilling of the separate components may weaken them, bolted together with the other parts would make it stronger as one big part?
the thick centre plate is to allow the porting to be the same in all the rotors and houses the centre bearing (although its noy quitein the centre
here is one i built earlier
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i225/Antnicuk/24112005003.jpg)
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i225/Antnicuk/DSCF2224.jpg)
I didn\'t know that as I have never seen a triple in pieces. Thanks for showing that, learn something new every day.
Any reason you left those ports so unforgivably small? :Giggle
Quote from: shaunwil;735508Hopefully it may run this year (Oh I wish thats the case) He usually brings to to Rotorstock but has only started doing the cage and tubbed back end middle of last year. He owns his own tube bender. Kev is a very capable at DIY !
Shaun
Inspiration to a few of us to get into some serious proper modding :)
Quote from: Grant Monkhouse;735525Isn\'t this why 20bs have the thick centre plate? Doweling the engine is surely beneficial to the block as whole whereas the drilling of the separate components may weaken them, bolted together with the other parts would make it stronger as one big part?
to add more dowels the motor needs to be machined and material took out, the same as oversize studs
there will always be a difference of opinion when it comes to building high hp motors in this country. some vendors swear by stuff (apex seals, doweling etc etc) as they have used it in the past and it has worked for them, some vendors swear by the bull.... factor to get more money in their pockets and have never gone over 1.5bar of boost for sustained peroids of time, but all have a dedicated following and followers take what they say as gospel.
i, personally just feel like the limits should be pushed until things break and learn from that rather than spend money on un-nesesary (sp) mods that don\'t work and that\'s my goal with robs motor build. tuning of which stopped at 1.8bar due to ecu resolution which is now cured, roll on the dyno and full race fuel :)
from what i have seen with 20b\'s the biggest killer is twist due to mounting position, perhaps that should be a port of call first along with a thick boost/baffle plate to save the motor being torn down again and again.
think thats the longest post i have ever wrote, need to go lay down
c
Do 20b\'s mount in the centre like the 13BT engines in the FC then ?
Makes you wonder if some frankenstien cobble using an FB front plate and FD back end could be used to make for and aft engine mounts for the longer motor ?
Hey Syed, what is the minimum power you are expecting from the build? Or is it a case of whatever power you get, you get, so to speak.
The other thing to consider is the use of the car, hard launches with sticky drag tyres will invoke more twist than a track car that will more likely spin the wheels than twist the engine. As re worx found out when they shattered all of the plates at the dowels on their rx8 drag car. fantastic power though!
Quote from: antnicuk;735597The other thing to consider is the use of the car, hard launches with sticky drag tyres will invoke more twist than a track car that will more likely spin the wheels than twist the engine. As re worx found out when they shattered all of the plates at the dowels on their rx8 drag car. fantastic power though!
I agree Drag launching will invoke more twist in the engine hence this is where clutch tuning or stall convertor tweaking comes into the equation, whereby there is a degree of slip before the full bite and therefore lesson the effects of twist force damage on the launch.
But the reworx engine breakages was more due to the fuel methonal they were using thats got to 100% correct in the delivery and ignition of it, as the Reworx rx8 was reliable and fine with low 9s with petrol as its fuel, plenty drag car engines in the US and PR go bang because of Meth if one little thing is not 100% and no amount of dowelling will save you
Quote from: PDale;735594Hey Syed, what is the minimum power you are expecting from the build? Or is it a case of whatever power you get, you get, so to speak.
The minimum power with the set up I have i.e microtech ecu, t8834d turbo, secret porting :), uprated fuel system i.e. 3bosh 044 pumps and three 1680, three 850, waterjackets for cooling etc is 350 to 400bhp :)
after the ecu is changed to motec and the turbo I recently sourced from America is installed I m looking at arroud ???
Seriously, I m very much inclined to have two t04z\'s, but I m not confident about the outcome. Any suggestions???
Syed
GTX 42R, or GT45R by garrett. I would only get these if your into drag racing only as these are monster size turbos!
Going for 2 turbos would be good but would require a serious manifold!
3 turbos would be good and slightly easier but all depends on space available.
Quote from: Grant Monkhouse;735668GTX 42R by garrett. I would only get these if your into drag racing only
you sure about that?
syed, look at the Borg warner range, cheap and uber reliable with ranges to suit all needs
s474 with 1.12 t4 rear would be good for fast road, rwyb, trackdays and 600hp easy
for more power try a 480 :)
c
Quote from: mx1311;735683you sure about that?
syed, look at the Borg warner range, cheap and uber reliable with ranges to suit all needs
s474 with 1.12 t4 rear would be good for fast road, rwyb, trackdays and 600hp easy
for more power try a 480 :)
c
Well according to this
http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/news/race_updates/Garrett_Drag_Racing.html
They are drag racing turbos?
I did forget Mir is running a triple, so a 42 would be good for that engine due to the huge exhaust flow. From what I understand the GTX range have better peak horsepower? However they are extremely expensive!
Guy, I have already finalised a deal and sourced a GT4788R turbo for my Triple :) , But the problem is single turbo does have a benefit but on the other hand twins are not that bad and to certain extent more reliable as well. I love single turbos and my previous 3 FD\'s were all single turbo.... No offence to anyone but, my mission is to built a Road Legal car which can compete against V8s, Skylines, Evos, Supra\'s etc etc.. as they are the main stake holders in the Japaneses racing World at the moment :)
So bearing in mind their weight to power ratio and etc etc I "think" I have to go twins, hence T04Z\'s as they are fast spooling!!!
But then I looked at some sports car with GT4788R Garrett turbo and the way they pulled themselves was unbelievable... So still in a bit of dilemma I am...
Please do send me your suggestions and I am hoping that someone will come up with acceptable solution which will be accepted by all those members who are taking interest in reply to this thread..
I appreciate everyones response to this thread
Regards
Syed
I have a 42gtx with the extra tial ss rear housing and it doesn\'t struggle on track, bear in mind all the info you get on those is for piston motors ;)
syed, seriously, look in to Borg warners, better and alot cheaper
Quote from: Grant Monkhouse;735668GTX 42R, or GT45R by garrett. I would only get these if your into drag racing only as these are monster size turbos!
Going for 2 turbos would be good but would require a serious manifold!
3 turbos would be good and slightly easier but all depends on space available.
Hi Grant Monkhous,
Space is not an issue for me because when we installed our 20b, we modified the engine bay and pushed the 20b back for the weight distribution (I cant upload pictures for some reason!!)
So space is not a problem I can have 3 turbos if I want to...its just the final decision about the turbo set up really..
Regards
Syed
Quote from: mx1311;735691syed, seriously, look in to Borg warners, better and alot cheaper
Cheers, I have had an opportunity to see the Brog Warner tirbo, it was installed by Kerim (powergains) on one of his customer\'s FD.. I think it was Mark\'s car...really nice car and did win a position as well.
I am considering all option at the moment... I checked GT4788R turbo on Himi Rotary..they said its a really good turbo..."I was expecting that answer anyway lollll
Syed
This engine has twin turbos :) http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/SKYLINE-RB26-MODIFIED-HIGH-SPEC-ENGINE-DRAG-TRACK-/120667951573?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item1c185ed1d5
Syed who is building your car?
Quote from: mx1311;735691syed, seriously, look in to Borg warners, better and alot cheaper
Havent borgwarner just released there new twin ball bearing turbos? Not huge in size yet but there selection will only grow.
I saw a thread about them on ausrotary, didn\'t really pay attention to it as people were discussing the compressor maps, and I don\'t understand how to read them, yet!
Sounds like they are as good as the garrett ones and a lot cheaper. Which is a no brained for choosing them really isn\'t it.
Quote from: DRAGON;735757This engine has twin turbos :) http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/SKYLINE-RB26-MODIFIED-HIGH-SPEC-ENGINE-DRAG-TRACK-/120667951573?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item1c185ed1d5
Syed who is building your car?
hi dragon, it\'s Pip of Wgt..at this stage he is only doing rebuild and preparation work on the engine for me, after the engine is built, prepared and ecu and turbo is changed (among other things) I m hopin over 800hp..
Wish me luck...:D
Good, cant wait to see sme pics etc!
Did no one spot the serious rotary power in my eBay link!? :)
Quote from: DRAGON;735900Good, cant wait to see sme pics etc!
Did no one spot the serious rotary power in my eBay link!? :)
unfortunatly there was some nasty piston thingy in the way- any chance of some clearer pictures of the white engine bay?
Quote from: marco;735901unfortunatly there was some nasty piston thingy in the way- any chance of some clearer pictures of the white engine bay?
Dragon,
u meant a piston Virus link u uploaded...:) sorry no time for piston at the moment., better things afoot :)