The below paragraph is from Practical Classic Magazine December 2010....
Practical Classics has received reports that the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency is refusing to issue VSCs registration documents to owners of re-engined classic cars - unless they can show the exchange engine\'s history.
The move is understood to be one of a raft of measures designed to help prevent car and component theft by introducing an element of traceability into the system.
Classic car owners will now have to give details of the engine\'s supplier, along with full details of the car that it came from. Failure to supply this
information could render the re-engined car unusable on UK roads. This means an end to the installation of used engines, which have sat around in garages for years, waiting for their moment to come once more, even if they are of the same type. It also prevents enthusiasts re-engining their cars with used engines of a different specification - such as V8s in MGBs and TR7s.
The initiative would affect thousands of British classics. The DVLA was asked to comment but failed to do so before this issue of Practical Classics went to press.
press scaremongering or another example of dvla bureaucracy gone mad?
God the DVLA are idiots.
I read somewhere that the new Minister of Transport is Classic Friendly.
He is apparently aware of this problem and is intending to change any \'Classics Hostile\' approaches from DVLA into more friendly actions.
When I read it I didn\'t pay much attention \'cos I didn\'t understand it properly, but I can see now that this is very important for well-documented classic cars.
But how many people with RX7\'s bother to notify DVLA of an engine change anyway?
I\'m on my 2nd attempt at notifying the DVLA on the engine swap in my mx5.
First time round it took them 5 weeks to send me a letter back saying that they needed more proof that the engine had been swapped, and that 2600cc was not accurate enough. I\'d played their game by putting it down as 2600cc rather than 1308cc, but meh what can I do!
Posted the 2nd attempt a couple of weeks ago. Got a signed letter on headed paper from the garage that does my MOTs stating the chassis number and engine number and confirming the engine type and capacity as 1308cc, which is everything they asked for. I\'ve filled out the v5 written them a covering letter explaining about it being a rotary and that Mazda had a deal with the DVLA to class a 13b as 2600cc, but if they wish to put me down for a 1308cc thats fine!
Fingers crossed!
It\'s a good job the majority of peoples eyes glaze over as soon as the "Rotary" word is mentioned.
I think the DVLA now thinks that the 13b engine is 2616cc, at least that is what it says on the V5 for my RX8.
Ah-ha. See the 12a in my fb is down as 2300cc exact, so I presumed 13b would be 2600cc exact in the dvla\'s eyes. All I can do is wait and see now!
Quote from: David Nock;734843But how many people with RX7\'s bother to notify DVLA of an engine change anyway?
Sorry, I\'m missing another point here aren\'t I?
When a car has been in a barn or whatever for yonks, it often seems to disappear from DVLA\'s records. So when it gets resurrected a new V5 may well be needed. That\'s when this problem would hit RX7\'s.
I was thinking of driveway in/out jobs in my simples thinkings above.
Quote from: David Nock;734843But how many people with RX7\'s bother to notify DVLA of an engine change anyway?
Jesus, be on the phone to them every five minutes, I\'m now on my fourth engine in two cars, they\'d never keep up
Quote from: Will66;734861I think the DVLA now thinks that the 13b engine is 2616cc, at least that is what it says on the V5 for my RX8.
Quote from: Steve-A;734863Ah-ha. See the 12a in my fb is down as 2300cc exact, so I presumed 13b would be 2600cc exact in the dvla\'s eyes.
See, this is the exact problem. The clueless ****s in the DVLA don\'t even have any consensus about how to categorise the rotary according to their own stupid arbitrary guidelines, how the hell are we meant to trust them to adminster another swingeing, badly-thought out half-arsed set of legislation.
As to the OP quote that this is intended to reduce car componentry theft and passing-on, when are they going to realise that the last thing a dodgy backstreet mechanic with a sideline in ringing vehicles does is bloody declare to the the DVLA that he\'s just done an illegal engine swap with a stolen motor, FFS! He just totally ignores the law and hopes no-one notices the engine\'s a 1.3 when it should be 1.6, or that a prospective buyer doesn\'t check the numbers against the log book.
As with all these stupid stupid laws, they cripple the genuine, honest enthusiast whilst making no difference whatsoever to the people they\'re designed to inconvenience because they just completely ignore them. After all, if you\'re content to break the law in the first place, breaking one more is hardly likely to bother you, is it?
[/rant]
Steve, I think they count 13B engines as 2604 for no very sensible reason.....2 x 1302 presumably :3Confused
Thanks Nik, this time hopefully the covering letter will mean they will just put me down for some sort of capacity and with new engine number, then thats all good with me!
I can see a challenging time ahead for car enthusiasts, particularly owners of our type of vehicles.
The EU are issuing directives that will directly affect our ability to modify our cars.
I think already in some countries, Germany and Belgium spring to mind for some reason, you are not allowed to fit non type approved parts to a car ( such as a 13b engine into a 1st gen not originally equipped with one)
VOSA are having to carry out a wide ranging review of the mot system in order to comply and it remains to be seen how this may affect modified cars.
It looks like changes are due to the introduction of the latest EU directive on roadworthiness testing 2010/48/EU which has to be in place in the UK by 31 December 2011. There is a major difference to the basis of the test in the directive than that used for the UK MoT scheme. A footnote in the Directive says
Notes: ( a ) ‘requirements’ are laid down by type-approval requirements at the date of approval, first registration or first entry into service as well as retrofitting obligations or national legislation in the country of registration.
which makes a fundamental difference to the UK test scheme. Vehicle standards in the UK are set by two types of regulations. Type-approval, which sets the standards that the Manufacturers must comply with in order to sell a vehicle, and Construction and Use (and the separate Lighting Regs) which are the older regulations that set what a vehicle on the road must meet.
The UK MoT scheme had at its legal base the Construction and Use regulations. What this meant in practice is that although the OE manufacturers had to fit Type Approved components owners could fit “pattern†or modified parts in service as long as they met the general safety standards of C&U and which were set down in the MoT test.
For example you could drop a 13bt into a 1st gen or whatever as long as it met the somewhat wider limits of CO and HC set out in C&U, or fit non approved brakes as long as the C&U brake performance was met, or non approved wiper blades as long as they cleared the screen.
This fundamental change by the Directive means that what you can actually change on a car in future is much more limited as it has to continue to comply with the Type Approval regs.
However DfT is reviewing the MoT provisions generally. In the October edition of the VOSA MoT Magazine an article on the future of the MoT says:
In terms of test frequency, in mid-July the coalition government confirmed that it intends ‘to look at the issue of MOT test frequencies later this year’. VOSA contributed statistical data to inform the last review in 2008, and we expect that our computer system and the data you have entered will be utilised again in much the same way. We expect to hear more details of the government’s review proposals later in the year. As far as changes to the test content are concerned, VOSA has already been analysing the requirements of the new Directive and working out how to implement them. We started this earlier in the year by talking with representatives of the MOT trade at our regular Trade User Group and VTS Council meetings. Both VOSA and the Department for Transport (DfT) are keen to ensure that any changes to the test are introduced in as practical a way as possible, keeping the burden on the trade to a minimum and ideally keeping the changes cost neutral.
Other items â€" such as headlamp bulb and unit incompatibility, headlamp levelling devices and illegal engine ‘chipping’ â€" will need further thought before we can get a workable solution for MOT stations.
I can\'t see how this can be applied retrospectively in this country without causing havoc but nothing surprises me anymore.
Will the day arrive when the mot tester refuses to issue a cert due to an un-notified engine change or a swap not compliant with type approval?
At the moment they don\'t check engine numbers but what\'s the betting they soon will.
Happy new year!
Hmmm, strangeness. Just out of a mixture of curiosity and rage at the randomness of the DVLA I dug through some of the paperwork for my car. The V5 does list it as 2616 like Will said. Oddly, the deregistration document from Japan just lists it as "0.65 x 2 litre". Working it back, I guess DVLA count it as 654cc per rotor hence 1308cc for a two-rotor engine and then double it just because they\'re utter ****s and they can, so it comes out as 2616cc :3Confused
Hope that\'s now as clear as mud :Giggle
Interstingly enough, since the rotary is about the easiest engine ever to build entirely from spare/new parts there must be a considerable number that don\'t have an engine number at all, certainly one of my enignes didn\'t. Wonder what that does to the pea-brains at DVLA stasi headquarters? :D
EU!!!!!!!
If you want to point your finger at one thing that is slowly stripping this country of its identity and greatness, look no further.
FFS lets get back to being "Great" Britain.
Quote from: jetpilot;734968EU!!!!!!!
If you want to point your finger at one thing that is slowly stripping this country of its identity and greatness, look no further.
FFS lets get back to being "Great" Britain.
You\'ve got my vote.
Someone tell me where the engine number is on a 13b. I\'ve never seen a single one stamped up with a VIN number !
Bloomin Stupid Burocrates !!!!!
Again we will be the only saps that follow EU regulation to the leter !
Shaun
Its kinda under the alternator on the front plate. Normally a letter than 5 or 6 numbers.
Or thats what I found when I googled for it. On my s4 13b there was indeed a letter and numbers there, and i\'ve told the DVLA so lets hope google was right :P
I think the DVLA doubled the capacity simply so it did not circumvent the cheap tax for cars with small engines that occurred briefly in about 1998 or something.
I believe what is known as a c**ts trick.
Plus you can fit a 13b in a 1st gen. There was an efi 13b version on the s3 cars. The gsle model.
Can\'t see this being easily enforced. Too much hassle for the mot testers.
Plus what about kit cars ? Surely they would be excempt ?
Shau
Quote from: shaunwil;735017Plus you can fit a 13b in a 1st gen. There was an efi 13b version on the s3 cars. The gsle model.
only in the US though.......
A check on the vin plate for a UK model would show the manufacturers original spec and they were all 12a\'s, no 13b efi\'s over here in 1st gens.
Quote from: shaunwil;735017Can\'t see this being easily enforced. Too much hassle for the mot testers.
Plus what about kit cars ? Surely they would be excempt ?
Shau
sounds like a right nest of spiders doesn\'t it?
With older rotary powered cars, up to say 1985, I bet loads have got replacement engines out of scrappers.... there was no legal requirement to record donor cars details so no one will have bothered.
Still, what the EU wants.... the EU usually gets
Quote from: Ian65;735023only in the US though.......
A check on the vin plate for a UK model would show the manufacturers original spec and they were all 12a\'s, no 13b efi\'s over here in 1st gens.
Balls !!! Its as daft as the straightness of our bananas !
Shaun
Strange but true, bananas aren\'t a fruit, they\'re a species related to plantains so I believe they qualify as like a herb or something. Bizarre factoid for the day, does this mean they should be exempt from EU fruit-straightening legislation?
If the engine number is on the front plate, you can say that its the original engine but needed a rebuild as you cracked the front plate and needed a new replacement one hence no engine number anymore, just show them a reciept for the front plate