A good Friday debate topic!
My view, if someone offered me the tools/knowledge to earn a considerable amount of money for a nominal fee only payable when you start earning acceptable levels i would have been over the moon! £7.50 a month payback hardly breaks the bank imho.
So, are the protesters the general Uni layabouts that have 4 hours of lectures a week giving them plenty of time to get up after their previous nights drinking only to end up with a pretend degree in some random subject after 3/4 years or are they the honest students who have a plan and goal and actually are\'nt too worried as they know that education will earn them good money in the future?
If anyone watches Have i got news for you, they may have seen a classic quote when one of the protesters was asked what the rise in fees meant to them,
"An extra £9k a year over 3 years, thats like £21k more, thats just ridiculous"
we been discussing this in the Who wins thread, so cant be bothered typing it out again, so have a look in there lol
I think the actual figure of the rise is quite too high, a rise would not have been necessary if the Scottish and Northern Ireland students were made to pay fees as well, therefore a rise for the English students would not have been necessary.
I agree it will stop students picking soft degrees, but it is still a huge chunk of money to pay back no matter how many years they will have to pay it, this will hit the average working/middle class students the most, with the richer students having the pick of the top uni places at the top universitys which will cause a divide which ever way you look at it.
Agreed the money has to come from somewhere at the uni population has increased massively, but it could have been a better way of doing it, with every student in BRITAIN paying not just the English students.
But remember it will only been some universitys on some degrees that will charge the top whack of 9k a year, the average will be 6k a year. This will lead to some market forces, some unis will shut down if they cant fill they places if they overcharge and some unis simply cant fill their places as students wont go there as they dont offer value for money
Can\'t respond, still too angry. It\'s just plain wrong on so many levels :mad:
I dont understand the fuss over the raise in fees, education is expensive, simple. I\'ve looked into doing courses recently and even part time courses are expensive, why should degree students get a free ride? Unless they haven\'t noticed, the country is in a bit of a downturn and everyone needs to tighten their belts and realise that everything is more expensive. Just because they choose to study at degree why should I foot their bill? If people choose to study then i think they should pay for it, it\'s not like they are asking for the money upfront, you pay back the fees once you are earning above a specific amount, earnings that would be considerably higher that if you had not gone to university. So, you learn more, you the earn more and then pay back the cost of your learning.
I also dont understand the whole fuss about the lib dems breaking promises, ok so they did promise something, they have now found out they cannot deliver on this promise and have accordingly changed their stance. So in a sense they made a mistake, admitted their mistake and people are cruicifying them for this? Surely it would be a bigger problem if they kept their promise and then another area like the NHS took a hit in funding. Example: The money need to keep pourly babies alive was needed for some jumped up student who wants to study Lady Gaga for 3 yrs and then end up working in the music industry creating more tuneless garbage to corrupt some similar minded fduck-tard into believing that such noise constitutes music.
One quote that annoyed me was some one saying "free education is a basic human right"
Well that is correct, you go to school from that ages of 4 to 16 and you get it free, they when you reach the age of employment you can choose to either go to work or to study further, and if you choose to study then you pay for it.
Does no-one realise that in this life nothing is for free, everthing cost money and if you choose to do somethig then you should pay for it, we are in such a mind set that everyone is a victim and that society owes us all money, free living, free food and cars and large plasma TV. :2Mad
On a side note did anyone see the issue about the chinese guys who has won the Noble Peace Prize despite being in a chinese prison, serving a 11 yrs sentance for standing up against the government? The media are kicking off about human rights and china opression, yet we bicker about our benefit system and how people get given things for nothing and then have the audacity to preach about islamic law and burn poppys. In china you do what you are told and if you dont you go to prison (if your lucky, if not you end up in a grave). Is there no happy medium we can arrange? Where people get what they deserve/earn and people can live with a sense of worth and value? Right, thats enough of my ranting, i\'m off the see about emegrating to live with my folks in Australia
I also don\'t understand the fuss. Too many people in this country seem to expect a free ride.
Never went to uni myself but did go to see friends occasionally. All they seemed to do was eat junk food (not cheap) and drink. Seemed to be very little time spent studying. Now I know that not all students are like this, but regardless I do think they should pay their way.
I have 3 kids who are a long way off Uni (if they want to go). If they do go in the future then great. But I don\'t want them to go just to enjoy the social side. I would want them to learn and not just waste time and money. If they have to pay for this then hopefully they will work harder and concentrate on what they are there for. To many people seem to go uni just for the social experience IMO.
Mark
Quote from: Bobbit;732155I dont understand the fuss over the raise in fees, education is expensive, simple. I\'ve looked into doing courses recently and even part time courses are expensive, why should degree students get a free ride?
The main argument against this in my eyes is that its a benifit to the country to have highly educated people. Now realistically there are alot of people who go for the social aspect or whatever, but then there are additionally a lot of people who really work hard at there degrees and and go far and its very hard to separate people.
Ive always thought that certain subjects should be cheaper than others, such as sciences etc to make them more accessable to those that are interested, but this then comes to the problem of who decides which subjects should be cheapest? At the current rate, science courses are going to become more expensive due to the need of equipment etc which we really do not want.
Personally I dont think only people doing degrees should have their education payed for, there should be a lot more attention payed to those who arn\'t particularly achedemic and getting them into some sort of apprenticeship or other form of educaion which will benifit them, not just educating poeple for the sake of it.
On top of everything, why isn\'t anyone critising the universities? Why don\'t they just spend their money on what they need? Yes nice new lectures theatres are nice, but they don\'t really help you learn better. Whats wrong with an old overhead projector etc. Im sure the uni\'s could cut their budgets by a significant amount without effecting the quality of education.
Sorry, Rob, but attitudes like this just enrage me and I expected better from you dude :( It sounds like this has been copied and pasted from the Daily Mail\'s ANGRY column. It\'s all just dog-in-the-manger
Quote from: Bobbit;732155I dont understand the fuss over the raise in fees, education is expensive, simple. I\'ve looked into doing courses recently and even part time courses are expensive, why should degree students get a free ride? Unless they haven\'t noticed, the country is in a bit of a downturn and everyone needs to tighten their belts and realise that everything is more expensive. Just because they choose to study at degree why should I foot their bill? If people choose to study then i think they should pay for it, it\'s not like they are asking for the money upfront, you pay back the fees once you are earning above a specific amount, earnings that would be considerably higher that if you had not gone to university. So, you learn more, you the earn more and then pay back the cost of your learning.
So many questions, the answer is simple. Today\'s students are the future of the country. They are the people who will have the skills and the abilities to take this coutry forward and bring it back from the brink. With the greatest of repsect, the people who won\'t be doing this are those who leave school at 16 with no qualifications and go on to be plasterers, buiders, street sweepers etc, vital though those roles are.
You should want to fund their eductaion because you exist in a democratic society and you therefore do not have the grounding to say where your funding of that society is spent, other than by exercising your right to vote to change the government of that society. You should want to fund education because the society as a whole will benefit from it, not because individuals will, although on an individual level it should be pointed out that those individuals will then go on to fund your pension, pay for the roads in your area, your local infrastructure, and when you fall off a ladder and shatter your spine and are unable to work, you will be supported and cared for by their contributions into society....
By raising fees from (rough average) nine grand to twenty seven, this policy has immediately made it simply impossible for people from disadvantaged backgrounds to better their status through eductation, and is effectively condemming them to repeat the poverty trap through subsequent generations whilst the privileged elite who can buy what they want can spend their way to eductation and guaranteed top employment afterwards. If you think that\'s a fair way for things to be I suggest you read some Dickens or William Blake poetry to see what sort of society such exaggerated wealth and status gaps create.
And as to paying back the money from your massive degree-enhanced earnings, well the gap between degree and non-degree based earnings is certainly not as large as it has been and is shrinking ever smaller as the high cost of living squeezes everything upwards from the bottom. We\'re talking about a degree no indebting you for decades on average earnings, not for a few years
Quote from: Bobbit;732155I also dont understand the whole fuss about the lib dems breaking promises, ok so they did promise something, they have now found out they cannot deliver on this promise and have accordingly changed their stance. So in a sense they made a mistake, admitted their mistake and people are cruicifying them for this? Surely it would be a bigger problem if they kept their promise and then another area like the NHS took a hit in funding. Example: The money need to keep pourly babies alive was needed for some jumped up student who wants to study Lady Gaga for 3 yrs and then end up working in the music industry creating more tuneless garbage to corrupt some similar minded fduck-tard into believing that such noise constitutes music.
The issue of the Government (for that is waht the Lib-Dems now are) breaking promises is surely absolutely immense in significance? The GOVERNMENT OF YOUR COUNTRY HAVE LIED TO THEIR ELECTORATE! Sorry to shout lol, but that is just fduking enormous in its significance. They haven\'t found they are unable to deliver a campaign pledge, they have actually broken their stated, recorded word. Clegg and Cable both stated in interviews prior to election that not only would they not increase tuition fees they would oppose any move to do so. Michael Gove also pledged that he would not rescind the further education funding schemes, which he has now done, and incidentally, this is of probably greater significance than the tuition fees issue because it guarantees people form the poorest backgrounds will now no longer be able to stay in eductaion beyond secondary, let alone chance University. This will of course lead to increases in inner city youth unemployment, crime and delinquency.
However, back to the deception of the politicians, it is in no way acceptable for the elected governors of this country to tell barefaced lies, this simply should not be tolerated on any level. They should be beyond reproach, that is why they are elceted in the first place, to KEEP the promises on which they stood.
As to the issue of music, well, it\'s also an important part of what bonds society together and just because you don\'t like it doesn\'t render it automatically invalid. You may hate N-Dubz but I daresay Dappy isn\'t too fond of your Cliff Richard collection, either. Who\'s right?
Quote from: Bobbit;732155One quote that annoyed me was some one saying "free education is a basic human right"
Well that is correct, you go to school from that ages of 4 to 16 and you get it free, they when you reach the age of employment you can choose to either go to work or to study further, and if you choose to study then you pay for it.
Does no-one realise that in this life nothing is for free, everthing cost money and if you choose to do somethig then you should pay for it, we are in such a mind set that everyone is a victim and that society owes us all money, free living, free food and cars and large plasma TV.
Most people accept that further education has to be at least partially self-funded but that doesn\'t excuse making it so expensive that great swathes of the population cannot now afford it at all. We\'re not talking about mum and dad having to tighten their belts and go without posh biscuits for three years to afford the increase, we\'re talking about it not being attainable at all for many families. Of course, those that can afford it, could afford it anyway...very cheap to those who can but impossible for those who can\'t. Great, what we need in this country is a greater gap between haves and have-nots than the current ever-widening gulf. We\'re talking about NINE THOUSAND pounds a year here, just on tuition fees, not the overall cost of living as well over the term of the degree (food, accomodation, travel, equipment, etc). Who the hell can pay an extra 9k out of their wages to support their kids per year? Do you think you\'d notice it going out of your wages? Because I sure as Hell would....well, I simply couldn\'t do it, what am I supposed to do, use my life savings to pay for my childs education and then starve to death in my dotage because my pensions worth nothing because the government and bankers between them have raped it and my child now cant support me in old age as would have happened once upon a time because he\'s crippled with massive student debts and can barely support himself?
Quote from: Bobbit;732155On a side note did anyone see the issue about the chinese guys who has won the Noble Peace Prize despite being in a chinese prison, serving a 11 yrs sentance for standing up against the government? The media are kicking off about human rights and china opression, yet we bicker about our benefit system and how people get given things for nothing and then have the audacity to preach about islamic law and burn poppys. In china you do what you are told and if you dont you go to prison (if your lucky, if not you end up in a grave). Is there no happy medium we can arrange? Where people get what they deserve/earn and people can live with a sense of worth and value? Right, thats enough of my ranting, i\'m off the see about emegrating to live with my folks in Australia
I think this happy medium is exactly what the students are trying to demostrate in favour of. China mostly only has the few human rights it currently enjoys due to various phases of rebellion against oppression...in fact the current regime arose through pretty much just that IIRC. I\'m not convinced that Australia\'s government have really showered themselves in glory with their domestic policy of late....
I\'ve said it before in other places but it now means that I cannot shout "My Taxes pay for your education to students."
It does mean that a student is financially responsible for their education which I think is a good thing and the way they\'ve done it means that repayment of the cost of their education is dependent on how much they earn. Even then it\'s not lots. For someone on a £40k a year salary it\'s going to cost about £150 a month, which is not outside the realms of affordability. I think the provisions are reasonable.
Quote from: Nik da Greek;732172You should want to fund their eductaion because you exist in a democratic society and you therefore do not have the grounding to say where your funding of that society is spent, other than by exercising your right to vote to change the government of that society. ..
Yes it in a ideal democracy I agree, but right now we as a country cant afford to pay for it all with the current taxation levels and money left in the coffers.
So lets talk solutions
1) Increase taxes to pay for it
2) Let the fees stay as there are therefore some universities will close due to lack of finance, therefore less places available to prospective students
3) Every student in Britain not just England pay fees and keep the levels the same
4) Cut further other services, therefore theory lead to more people out of jobs
What solution would you go for Nik and others? Im very interested if we can come up with our own theory to fund university places
^^^ fair points guys and very well explained, thanks for taling the time in explaining things further for me, plenty of food for thought.
I still cant say i\'m overly effected by the change, one main issue of contention is what Nik said "And as to paying back the money from your massive degree-enhanced earnings, well the gap between degree and non-degree based earnings is certainly not as large as it has been and is shrinking ever smaller as the high cost of living squeezes everything upwards from the bottom. We\'re talking about a degree no indebting you for decades on average earnings, not for a few years"
If the difference in earnings is not much what\'s the point of Uni?
Now i\'ve never been to Uni, i\'ve always worked hard have earned a fair wage, not as much as I would like but enought to afford a few things that give me pleasure. But I still begrudge paying so some snotty nosed kid to go to Uni, spend 3-4 yrs getting plastered and spending my hard earned cash on drugs and fast food (this is based on the large number of my friends that did go to Uni and what they got up to) Now I know that this will not apply to all students but it will apply to enough of them that it annoys me.
i know that question is more hypothetical than anything as without university we dont get people qualified to higher levels and that means no more doctors etc but I still feel that their (doctors etc) potential earnings will be far higher that I could ever achieve and so I feel happy that they would be able to afford to pay back the higher cost of their learning at the new levels the government have set.
As for the youth being our future, yep that\'s true, but based on my past and applying that to the future, it doesn\'t look too hopefull to me. The government will lie and make a mess of things then lie about making a mess of things, banks will charge me a fortune to let them use my money and then loose my money, my one main pleasure of driving will become more and more expensive so I will have less chance to enjoy myself and become even more bitter towards the way this country is run and this extra cost will go to some lazy charver or illegal immigrant with a family of 12 and they will get a larger house than me, pay nothing for it while they drive around in the largest car I could imagine and watch tv on a screen so large astronoughts can see it from space. And all this time I will keep my head down, work hard, pay my taxes and grumble about life.
In responce to this quote from Nik also:
"You should want to fund their eductaion because you exist in a democratic society and you therefore do not have the grounding to say where your funding of that society is spent, other than by exercising your right to vote to change the government of that society. You should want to fund education because the society as a whole will benefit from it, not because individuals will, although on an individual level it should be pointed out that those individuals will then go on to fund your pension, pay for the roads in your area, your local infrastructure, and when you fall off a ladder and shatter your spine and are unable to work, you will be supported and cared for by their contributions into society...."
I pay for private health care through work and personal health insurance and so again the fact that I dig into my own pocket for these benefits does not endear me towards those who work for and contribute towards the NHS (as an example) as the current way the NHS is run is beyond a joke and is so wastefull of the money that I contribute, that I feel it necessary to pay extra for private care. I dont feel the NHS gives a level of competence and professionalism that I would deem acceptable for a dog let alone a human. ahem, sorry got side tracked there. And as for the upkeep of roads in my area, you\'ll have to excuse me for laughing but the roads around here are shocking and haven\'t seen a workman in yrs.
As for Australia, i know it\'s not perfect but even if we picked up the UK and set it down in Oz I would still feel happier as the weather would be better :Thumbs-up (obviously not in western Oz at the moment but generally so)
To summerise I think I dont know enough of the facts to make an informed decision, but i\'m still bitter about the fact that, having worked hard all my life and achieved what I have, I have to pay for lazy idiots to waste my money. As Mark has said above, the budget is simply not big enough to go around, cuts have to be made everywhere, what I think reduces my sympathies for students is their current demonstrations and the level of violence during those demonstrations. FFS some idiot threw a fire extinguisher off a rooftop at the police, people have smashed windows and attacked the royals, they are behaving like 3yrs in a supermarket that have been told that cannot have the large packet of wotsists they want.
Right rant over and I\'d like to say that yet again MRC has shown me people can have different opinions and still have civil conversations on the internet without degrading themselves with shouting and name calling
P.S Nik da Greek smells of wee wee! :Ladys-man
I also heard on the news today that Scottish Universities don\'y charge, which i guess moves us onto a whole new debate. Why arent they charging and why are the UK universities now having to fund that shortfall?
To Mr Greek, as ever a lot of valid points, but as per my original question, who is protesting, the wasters as Bobbit says, who want a few years of not having to work, watching daytime tv rubbish, eating sub of the day and getting absolutely trollied most nights if not and or stoned or the ones who know their future career planned and the only way to obtain said career and higher earnings is through further education!
Will this not sort the wheat from the chaff??
There are so many boll*cks degrees these days where whomever does them will never trouble the powers that be and not ever be close to making a difference in my life or this countries, apart from serving me my McDonalds or Starbucks. So as per Bobbit, why should i pay my tax\'s and go without my privaledges so they can have 4 years out?
Quote from: jetpilot;732179I also heard on the news today that Scottish Universities don\'y charge, which i guess moves us onto a whole new debate. Why arent they charging and why are the UK universities now having to fund that shortfall?
Exactly thats the point Im trying to make, Students in Northern Ireland and Scotland dont pay, why an earth not!? just beacuse they devolved from the English parliment, Last time I looked all our taxes go in the same pot
Therfore an English student going to a Scottish uni still has to pay, but a Scot student going to an English Uni does not (correct me if im wrong) seems unfair, I thought we lived in the United Kingdom but Un-united to suit other peoples agendas and wants
Quote from: dthebuk;732170Ive always thought that certain subjects should be cheaper than others, such as sciences etc to make them more accessable to those that are interested, but this then comes to the problem of who decides which subjects should be cheapest? At the current rate, science courses are going to become more expensive due to the need of equipment etc which we really do not want.
Personally I dont think only people doing degrees should have their education payed for, there should be a lot more attention payed to those who arn\'t particularly achedemic and getting them into some sort of apprenticeship or other form of educaion which will benifit them, not just educating poeple for the sake of it.
On top of everything, why isn\'t anyone critising the universities? Why don\'t they just spend their money on what they need? Yes nice new lectures theatres are nice, but they don\'t really help you learn better. Whats wrong with an old overhead projector etc. Im sure the uni\'s could cut their budgets by a significant amount without effecting the quality of education.
Some very good points bud, esp about different "core" degrees being cheaper. I like your thought process on that issue.
University\'s are very good at wasting money, it seems to me with my simple understanding of things, that, like councils and governing bodies in general, the people who run these establishments are too concerned with not offending people and making sure everyone is happy. To me they should be run as a business and the wheat should be seperated from the chaff on a regular basis. Although working for a large company this is still not an ideal solution but at least it would be a start
Quote from: BlitzBoy;732175Yes it in a ideal democracy I agree, but right now we as a country cant afford to pay for it all with the current taxation levels and money left in the coffers.
So lets talk solutions
1) Increase taxes to pay for it
2) Let the fees stay as there are therefore some universities will close due to lack of finance, therefore less places available to prospective students
3) Every student in Britain not just England pay fees and keep the levels the same
4) Cut further other services, therefore theory lead to more people out of jobs
What solution would you go for Nik and others? Im very interested if we can come up with our own theory to fund university places
My only theories would be.
1) Enforce Scotland to come to the party and pay their share.
2) Shorten these random degrees that can be, prob about 90% and not make Uni not seem like such a holiday and having 3/4 years out when you probably study in less than half that. 2 years max and then out to work. That could mean, bigger turnover through Uni\'s, therefore more through the stiles, more paying!
Further education is a not something everyone should expect to get. Yes anyone should be entitled to do it, but it should not be given it for next to nothing. You go into futher education to better yourself and get a better paid job at the end. If you get paid more when you leave then you should expect to pay the money owed back. Simple as that. If you want to do it then great go for it, pay the money back and quit complaining about being hard done too.
At the end of the day it is a choice. I chose not to go to uni. I got an apprentiship and learned my skills through work. Yes I went to college as part of it some of it was paid for some I paid for myself. My education, My choice.
Im not saying that I am right in the following statement but....
If more people were to do apprentiships or start at the bottom and work up through the ranks, then maybe this country would be able to do things for itself insted of buying in 90% of things.
I am a bit confused.. when Royal wedding is a discussion-most of the people would say lets fund the wedding in terms of transport, policing etc etc. But when the education becomes an issue, people tend to say that why would someone be studying on my tax money?
Guys lets be on one side. Either all of us should agree that-unless the money is not spent on the people as a whole, we are not supporting any move of the government. Or we can argue that we are individual people and come from individual backgrounds so we should respect the diversity of everyone. If someone wants to study they should be given every opportunity to study regardless of anyones tax money.
I am an example and most of the forum people are examples too. I have studied to a Masters level of education. Yes, I had to take the student loan out in order to do my desired qualification. I am paying back my loan but its easily said difficultly done. Every month from my pay slip the student loan is deducted and I know its going to take me few years to finish it off. However, imagine if the fees are up-to 9K how much loan money students need to take out and how long would it take them to pay it back? (bearing in mind the food, the cost of living at the University Halls etc etc).
I don\'t support violence nor I disagree with peaceful demonstration as this is one pillar of the Rule of Law (said by Lord Dicey 1889). However, students have every right to express their concerns peacefully.
Lastly, lets not forget that education is a success of every nation. This is proved by the Fascist Theory-where they spent less on education and more on state. The result was-the money was there but there weren\'t competent people left in the country in order to take the country towards success...
Disclaimer:
No disrespect to anyone, its just my suggestions. Education is key to success and it can be in any shape either at School, Uni, or vocational..
Regards
Syed
Sorry buddy, comments like cost of living is completely irrelevant, we all have cost of living!
In no generalisation as i know there are some very hard working students out there, but ANY night out in my town is full of students, absolutely 100% out their heads, so i have to question, if your worried about cost of living, you should also be worried about the cost of going into town, paying to get into bars and paying for drinks, let alone getting up the next day and "studying"!
I am afraid students have got a bad rap because of their lifestyles.
And i find it especially ironic that they have the time and money to get to London to demonstrate!
Quote from: TiddlesRX7;732186Further education is a not something everyone should expect to get. Yes anyone should be entitled to do it, but it should not be given it for next to nothing. You go into futher education to better yourself and get a better paid job at the end. If you get paid more when you leave then you should expect to pay the money owed back. Simple as that. If you want to do it then great go for it, pay the money back and quit complaining about being hard done too.
At the end of the day it is a choice. I chose not to go to uni. I got an apprentiship and learned my skills through work. Yes I went to college as part of it some of it was paid for some I paid for myself. My education, My choice.
Im not saying that I am right in the following statement but....
If more people were to do apprentiships or start at the bottom and work up through the ranks, then maybe this country would be able to do things for itself insted of buying in 90% of things.
I think charging people more isn\'t the answer. At the end of the day you want people who are going to do well at uni and after uni to go, and raising fee\'s could put them off. In some cases you\'re right, some courses/jobs don\'t really help society, but those that do shouldn\'t be forced to pay vast somes of money imo. You could always base uni fee\'s on someones performance at A level, but then some people don\'t do well at A levels but do do well at uni. Its hard to seperate really. Putting it down to money is really not the option.
can\'t agree with you more about apprenticships and alternative education, there should be much more focus on it
I couldnt give 2 ***** about the raise in money its the p****** on war memorials, using poppy reefs as frisbee\'s, attacking members of OUR ROYAL FAMILY that really really gets me going :2Mad.
Is 9k a year not the maximum that they can charge? I was under the impression that not all universities would charge this. Either way cost is going up and students may have to think about earning money to help get through uni. I know this sounds a crazy concept for some students, but when they are not in their 4 hour a week class, or studying (watching TV or getting drunk), they could potentially try to get a part time job.
I also agree more should be done to get people doing apprenticeships. Lets also remember that you aren\'t doomed to fail in life, just because you don\'t go to university. I went straight to work and started off as a lowly paid warehouse op, cleaning shelves etc. Have gradually worked my way through various companies, invested money in myself by paying for a few courses along the way, and now I work in IT as an SAP analyst / developer.
There is a lot to be said for starting from the bottom and working your way up. You learn a lot about many different areas, gain practical experience and ultimately appreciate a lot more about other areas of work.
Obviously this does not apply to all jobs as there are certain areas where studying is required, before the practical. But IMO there are too many people out there doing soft degrees for the sake of it.
Mark
I don\'t think those were students doing the vandalism. There were plenty of CND, Trident Ploughshare, Anarchy and other anti-establishment logos in the groups of people doing the criminal damage. Doesn\'t make it right.
Havent read the whole thread and quite frankly am not going to but I would support a tiered system which actually encourages students to take up so called professional courses (medicine, pharmacy, economics, engineering, maths) as opposed to so called mickey mouse ones (business management, horse studies, the life and times of michael jackson) to make university places more competetive especially for courses leading to proffessional qualifications (MBBS, MPharm, BEng as an example) and structure the fees based on parental income AND on performance at A-Level (although for that to happen we would need to lose some of the mickey mouse GCSE and A-Level examining boards). This way if a student decided they wanted to do a soft degree and drink and shag themselves into oblivion then they can do so at their own cost. Is this too simplistic a view?
Maybe a better option would be to tie the more professional degrees as part of a higher level apprenticeship. The student could work for them and the company help them with their costs. It\'s how modern apprenticeships work with more coversational experience such as engineering.
Shaun
Quote from: dthebuk;732195I think charging people more isn\'t the answer. At the end of the day you want people who are going to do well at uni and after uni to go, and raising fee\'s could put them off. In some cases you\'re right, some courses/jobs don\'t really help society, but those that do shouldn\'t be forced to pay vast somes of money imo. You could always base uni fee\'s on someones performance at A level, but then some people don\'t do well at A levels but do do well at uni. Its hard to seperate really. Putting it down to money is really not the option.
can\'t agree with you more about apprenticships and alternative education, there should be much more focus on it
I know what your saying but..... If you get good enough grades at school then you should get a chance to go to uni. The Government should provide you with the means to do this (with a student loan). Now depending on what you want to study should reflect on what you pay for your uni course. For example if you want to be a doctor your course fee\'s should be more than if someone who studies something to do with IT. When your finnished you\'ll be earning enough to pay back the extra.
Basically it\'ll sort the men out from the boys! If your there for the right reasons its gonna be hard but worth it in the end. If your not then you\'ll end up in a fair amount of debt and have a hang over in a dead end job.
And yes we should as a nation be doing more learning in work from a young age. We have forgot how to do things for ourselves and find it easier to pay someone else to do what ever it is. Industry has suffered as a result.
Ade
i dont see why your parental earning should be taken into account when deciding the costs. why should mr A whos worked really hard for his money have to fund x % more towards his childs uni compared to mr b who got a rubbish job. its unfair.
the students should get into uni based on there merits from school, and the course fee should be the same accross the board regardless of wealth or lack of it.
and i do think the course fees should be charged to the students. not on any profit margin. but the cost of there education should be paid for by them. primary,secondary and 6th form is free. but after than i think it should be paid for..
if they go to uni. do a decent course, study hard (not just drinking partys etc) they wil come out of it with a qualification that will put them into a position to earn big bucks.. do a rubbish course about the life and times of michael jackson (as jit put it) then they will end up stacking shelves at tesco with a big debt ( no offence tescos stackers!!) ...
Quote from: Jit;732202Havent read the whole thread and quite frankly am not going to but I would support a tiered system which actually encourages students to take up so called professional courses (medicine, pharmacy, economics, engineering, maths) as opposed to so called mickey mouse ones (business management, horse studies, the life and times of michael jackson) to make university places more competetive especially for courses leading to proffessional qualifications (MBBS, MPharm, BEng as an example) and structure the fees based on parental income AND on performance at A-Level (although for that to happen we would need to lose some of the mickey mouse GCSE and A-Level examining boards). This way if a student decided they wanted to do a soft degree and drink and shag themselves into oblivion then they can do so at their own cost. Is this too simplistic a view?
:Thumbs-up Defo not a simplistic view, a very constructive view, and given that you are from the Education environment your view holds more sway then others
Getting confused about where I answered what now. Think I must have spoken about "soft" degrees on Who Wins rather than here so I\'ll drop my 2ps worth again...
I kinda disagree with the whole "soft" degree argument on a couple of levels. Perhaps the most convincing argument being that a degree, ANY degree is not necessarily designed to provide the student with every last piece of information and every skill needed to perform their chosen job, but rather the pssessing of a degree says to prospective employers that this person is capable of the discipline, application and intelligence to achieve degree standard and is therefore (theoretically) capable of applying those skills to the job in question. Teaching, since th\'boy Jit has been mentioned, is a good example...a student can either do a teacher training degree (whatver they\'re called this week) and go straight into teaching from University, or they can do whatever degree they like (often but not necessarily in the subject they end up teaching) then do an extra course to give them the teaching qualification (PGCE or whatever). Thus you end up with, for example, one of our friends who is a History graduate but works as a Physical Education teacher. His degree is irrelevant to his job beyond it being a measure of his intelligence and ability to learn.
Therefore, yes a film studies degree (or whatever) may seem like an excuse to watch a load of movies for a year and drink copious amounts of beer but that person my achieving a pass grade is showing that they are capable of learning and applying themsleves for three years. Lets face it, if all people wanted to do was get plssed for a few years, there are better ways to do it. Stay living at home or a cheap rented place, and any job becomes high-paying when you have no mortgage or bills to pay, you don\'t have to go through all the tedious mucking about reading books and writing essays nonsense.
Also, who is to judge what a soft degree is? Without having actually done it, who can say how easy it is? If you\'re a mathematical genius, an astrophysics degree may not seem the daunting prospect it is to most of us mortals. By the same token, the same maths prodigy may be so literal-minded that they could not see the nuance of expression in a poem and would find an English degree impossible. One of Beths housemates when she was at Uni was an astrophysicist who could work out stopping distances for his driving test in his head based on frighteningly complex formulae, but it never occurred to him to simply memorise the numbers on the back of the Highway Code, and you had to explain any film plot to him twice because he just never picked up on the subtexts and subtleties. Another housemate did a film studies degree and now has a succesful self-made business running a movie shop, and as a sideline edits movie scripts. Not bad for a "soft" degree. Who can judge the future?
I always think there\'s a bit of jealousy involved in this sorta backlash, like the same mentality that resents people who speed past on the motorway at 110 cos we\'d secretly like to be doing it too but our personal risk/reward balance doesn\'t allow it so we tut about how irresponsible they are instead. Likewise, from the outside we see someone apparently living the life of Reily whilst "studying" for their Carribean Studies degree and wish we could be having the six-month field trip to the Bahamas instead of reading dusty old books full of Shakespeare and Chaucer
I probably need to write some shorter posts :o
Apparently, I smell of wee, too :rollin
Personally I think the new system of funding is good since it means that the financial responsibility for the degree rests with the individual.
Quote from: Nik da Greek;732231Lets face it, if all people wanted to do was get plssed for a few years, there are better ways to do it. Stay living at home or a cheap rented place, and any job becomes high-paying when you have no mortgage or bills to pay, you don\'t have to go through all the tedious mucking about reading books and writing essays nonsense.
You say this Nik that are better ways of doing it, but real truth be told thats why most people go to University is for social aspect of it, it is a fact, Ive seen it with my own eyes,experienced it ,had friends that did it and if people on this forum that have been to Uni will admit to it, its 60% getting ....ed up and partying and 40% studying.
Plus the reason most people don\'t stay at home and get a job and just get ....ed and live with parents, because most parents wont allow it and make sure their kids pay rent and bills. So the child wants to get away from their parents ,not be told what to do,and be seen doing good by studying. Its a right a passage to adulthood as it were, so yes the student should pay something towards the bill, but maybe not as high as 9 grand a term though.
Even the Science degree I did could have been done in 2 years, if the time free between lectures and practical lessons was condensed, I worked out on average we only had 3 hours of lectures a day, some days none.
Anyway we only had a few people say how we would fund Unis instead of a fee raise, cmon some more views on that please.
The thing that annoys me most about it is that it plays into the hands of the rich. Will £9k a year fees put Mr Cameron and his cronies off sending their kids to uni - no i don\'t think so. And you can guarentee his kids won\'t be having to take out £5k a year in student loans to pay for their living costs either.
Will £9k a year fees + £5k a year student loans put off kids from poorer backgrounds - of course it will.
Same old tory story - look after their own :(
Bobbit - Your first post on the subject was bang on... :Thumbs-up
Quote from: Panjy;732238The thing that annoys me most about it is that it plays into the hands of the rich. Will £9k a year fees put Mr Cameron and his cronies off sending their kids to uni - no i don\'t think so. And you can guarentee his kids won\'t be having to take out £5k a year in student loans to pay for their living costs either.
Will £9k a year fees + £5k a year student loans put off kids from poorer backgrounds - of course it will.
Same old tory story - look after their own :(
Maybe this is the exact point, it will most likely put people off, not necessarily the poor, but the ones who decide that whatever total costs they have at the end dont stack up to their potential earnings from gaining a degree in say "floristry". So isnt that a good thing, cuts are being made in spending unilaterally so why should students have an easy ride??
It does seem there is a common theme within these posts that there is objection to some student lifestyles and i am still 100% sure the kids that know they have the opportunity to earn considerable amounts of money will still do those degrees be they rich or poor! As i said in my first post, if someone gave me the tools to earn for example £50k a year for life for an investment of £27k only payable when i actually start earning that money i would be all over it.
It would be very interesting to see the exact amounts repayable as you earn!
...confusing education with career development. They are not the same thing.
What we are looking at is not radical change; it is book-keeping. What\'s happening now won\'t even deliver a better class of sausage machine. Excellence is elitist because we aren\'t all the same but if the UK wants an education system to provide the next generation of professionals, academics and thinkers it has to stop thinking short term.
And for the \'get realists\' who think personal debt mountains will deliver better education...
Strip professional / vocational training courses currently masquerading as degrees out of the university system. The sort of stuff Jit referred to - geared to a given profession or industry.
Decommission universities that were once top class technical colleges or polytechnics and recreate those parallel tiers to offer the industry or job focused courses, making the qualifications from these transportable into academic post-graduate courses at Universities (capital U).
Create, develop and promote \'apprenticeship\' schemes that train people FOR work - AT work. The scheme would apply to white collar/professional jobs as well as crafts/trades. Find a new word to describe the scheme so that people get the \'boiler suit\' image out of their mind.
Use an element of corporation tax as well as graduate/income tax to cross fund some kinds of training schemes while providing tax breaks for businesses running entry level training schemes to school/college leavers either in-house or contracted out to colleges.
Undertake a complete review of education from Kindergarten upwards and restructure it as one, integrated, system. As there is only ONE budget, stop fragmenting it with illusory choice
Re-educate the educators and be clear about their roles and responsibilities.
Stop trying to run education like a business, measuring the performance of the system with a crude ROI index with the national, political and public gaze rooted to next year\'s bottom line. Sometimes obtaining best value means rebuilding from the ground floor.
That is a start and a bit more than fiddling the books to shuffle off an expensive responsibility. A university degree should NOT be thought of as the modern equivalent of basic literacy. We have to adjust our national perspective on education because while employers continue to promote the idea that a \'degree\' is essential to get a decent job, a generation who are stuck between that rock and a £18-27K hard place - believe they are being shafted. I think they are probably right.
The \'pull the ladder up\' attitude is not useful or constructive and about as meaningful as damning all students as work-shy drunkards - that is a description of ALL youth. How you determine the employment or educational status of a mob - be they in London, a university town or even the seaside - is a completely other problem. Obviously the present system is broken...it produces students who do not understand that swinging off war memorials, vandalising statues or bashing up a royal Rolls Royce are not good ways to gather public sympathy. On the other hand we allegedly now have a police force who think a wheelchair user at a demonstration is fair game and who, the media would have us believe, can\'t communicate with one another - never mind the rest of us. Don\'t panic though... they have a fast-track graduate programme. :2Confused
QuoteMaybe this is the exact point, it will most likely put people off, not necessarily the poor, but the ones who decide that whatever total costs they have at the end dont stack up to their potential earnings from gaining a degree in say "floristry". So isnt that a good thing, cuts are being made in spending unilaterally so why should students have an easy ride??
What makes you think a kid with parents who earn 100k + will have to even consider the financial implications? The rich will continue to go because its still easily affordable for them - so only the less well off will be put off. Is that fair, no, it just creates a two tier society & workforce.
And i\'m not sure why folk are only concentrating on the tuition fees. Students have to live whilst at university which is a minimum £5k a year in rent/food etc. This will also have to be borrowed for those that chose a degree like i did (engineering - 4 years, so more like £36k fees & £20k loan) that won\'t allow them the time to have a part time job. So the debt they leave uni with will be huge :2Confused
And they definately won\'t be coming out on £50k a year - it could be 20 years before they earn that sort of money, if they ever do.
I totally agree that there are some really wishy washy degress out there and the skills learnt from them don\'t add much value to our society.
I also agree that many go to uni more for the experience than to get some useful work skills from it. But don\'t tar all students with the same brush.
There are many subjects taught, engineering being one, that add significant value to our society and are incredibly hard going to complete (hardest & most stressful thing i\'ve done in my life by a country mile - i was a builder for ten years before going back to education).
If we really want to add value to our society & economy in the long term we need to be encouraging more people to study subjects that will add value in the future. We also need to be limiting the number of upstart uni\'s & non value adding courses. We shouldn\'t be penalising all students & potentially putting off many talented people from poorer backgrounds but continue to let better off kids study whatever they like at the expense of their parents. How does that help us going forward?
Quote from: BlitzBoy;732236Anyway we only had a few people say how we would fund Unis instead of a fee raise, cmon some more views on that please.
Since you\'re so obsessed with this, I would have thought the answer would be obvious to someone who is University-educated :rollin Abandoning the Trident replacement project would seem a good start...
The bottom line is that if you ask this question people will answer with whatever they dislike the most in society at the time, I guess many would bleat on about stopping benefits for scroungers because they\'ve been brainwashed to say it by the media. A more honest answer is that no-one knows how to pay for it, because no-one outside government has any clear idea of how the finances of the country work, how much it\'s costing to do what and how much could realistically be diverted by, for example, making MPs pay for their own long lunches rather than have them on junket account lol. I suspect that even those in government don\'t have a very clear idea about it either, which is why they make such a bad job of it
Seems to me that no-one has yet come up with any good answer as to why degrees shouldn\'t be state-funded other than extremely mean-spiritied whinging about how someone did an easier degree than me, why should I pay for others\' education, it\'s not
fair all students do is flop about drinking heavily and
I had to work for a living. These are hardly arguments, rather just a depressing iteration of human nature. Presumably because modern culture forbids racism or being mean to cripples we have to find other targets of opportunity, and it\'s always acceptable to hate students, isn\'t it?
Just in case anyone wishes to discount my ramblings as coming from an ex-Butterfly Appreciation Sciences degree student defending the three years, I spent at Uni at your expense, I\'d just like to make it clear that I never went. I left school and went and got a job and used that to pay for being extremely plssed and out of my face for quite some years...like Jinx so rightly pointed out, this is
not the behaviour of students, it is the behaviour of
youth
Quote from: Panjy;732255What makes you think a kid with parents who earn 100k + will have to even consider the financial implications? The rich will continue to go because its still easily affordable for them - so only the less well off will be put off. Is that fair, no, it just creates a two tier society & workforce.
They wont, im not discussing that, but a percentage of the rich have worked hard to be able to not worry about the implications and the rich are already paying more in taxes. Whichever way you cut it, life will not be equal or fair, like Nu Labia wanted, there will be rich, there will be poor, end of, and i am neither!
Probably the worst hit as ever is the middle classes, people that work hard for their wage and will have to make difficult decisions about their childs future!
I know some incredibly hard working people that are paying for themselves to go to Uni, i also know a batch who went because it was expected of the them by their parents and who werent sure what they wanted to do and also know a batch who went for the "social" aspect!
I have always maintained there are some valuable degrees (to society) and feel they will still go despite the increase, but also think there will now be a lot that will feel their chosen degree is not worth the "costs" and subsequently will either get out to work or do another degree worthy of the increased costs.
Society isnt equal and isnt fair and never will be.
Quote from: jetpilot;732257Society isnt equal and isnt fair and never will be.
Very true but transferring the cost of education to the individual is not exactly a charter for minimising the disadvantages inherent in it.
Don\'t just focus on the price - look beyond the costs and think about value. Those soft courses so widely detested are cheap to run. It does not cost much to think about the media but a science degree demands lab time that soaks up resources etc. Which ones are going to cost more? Transferring the fee burden will not address the issue of worth that apparently anger people here.
An education system boasting an unhealthy percentage of teenagers who hold \'being famous\' as a career aspiration is not going to do much to advance the nation\'s march into the future is it. If - as suggested - we have arrived at a point where something big has to change, shuffling the numbers about is not going to do it. If the state no longer sees funding higher education as part of its job, resigning responsibility but retaining control over the system is an equation only a politician would think balanced.
Quote from: jinx;732261Very true but transferring the cost of education to the individual is not exactly a charter for minimising the disadvantages inherent in it.
Very true! But as a motoring forum and i am sure most would agree, we are all fed up of being an easy target for the gov to tax to death (lets face it, we moan about it enough)! It would be all too easy for them to say, we have a shortfall on "x", lets tax the motorist again, but maybe giving them credit they are actually looking at what is costing the tax payer lots of money and saying, "x" is costing us lots of money, we need to recoup some of that, so lets increase the costs for "x" itself!
Without making this a taxation debate, i think pretty much everything i enjoy doing is massively taxed, fuel for car and jet ski, smoking, a few beers etc I know these are fully my choice and barring the NHS, i have or do not ask the gov for anything, i didnt go to state school, ive never claimed benefits, rarely call or trouble the police, fire brigade, council, dont use public transport etc etc
And without trying to generalize, if it makes those students i see in town on "easy" degrees having to think a little more about spending their money on drink, drugs etc and "budgeting" a very useful life tool, all the better. As with most things, some will suffer and i feel for them but you cant make everyone happy 100% of the time. :Thumbs-up
a perfect example of this is my lodger, he is a school friend of mine. after going to uni and doing 2 courses from 19 to 24 years old. then getting into even more debt. 36k worth in total. declared bankrupt.
then a string of rubbish jobs. now has started yet another uni degree at 33years old.. in model making. ( cant remember the uni name for it) its a 3 year course, really useful course hey?!?!
he`s got no intention of doing anything with it. its just another way of not getting a job for 3 years at the cost of us tax payers. he sleeps in till 9.30 and is always home on his xbox before i get in from work. (as blitzboy said. full time course with part time hours)
i do think the idea of raising course fees to 9k is way too much ,,, BUT raising the course fee`s will in my opinion make them thik twice about doing a course just to avoid work and actually concentrate on the course if they are there to learn..
i dont have direct first hand knowledge of uni like some on here.( i chose to do apprentiship training for my qualification) but. most of my friends have done the uni thing. and i visited them most weekends and have listened to their stories etc etc. and i see what career path there oh so important uni qualification has acheieved them
I chatted to a lad I tenpin bowl against in a league. He is looking at a degree course in sports science to enable him to become a PE teacher. When I asked him the questions I considered when doing my apprenticeship was the question of availability of jobs, the value of those jobs, basic career path questions. He didn\'t have an answer to those questions. Is part of the failure of the system not making kids think about these questions. If a degree is worth doing for sombody in their lives then the initial costs and the way it is paid for should be considered at the beginning.
Shaun
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
thumbs up
I just had a thought.
What about charging people based on their result?
the better you do, the less you pay. Gives people incentive to work hard. If people want to scrape by and get drunk all the time they can pay for it.
Quote from: jetpilot;732265Without making this a taxation debate, i think pretty much everything i enjoy doing is massively taxed, fuel for car and jet ski, smoking, a few beers etc I know these are fully my choice and barring the NHS, i have or do not ask the gov for anything, i didnt go to state school, ive never claimed benefits, rarely call or trouble the police, fire brigade, council, dont use public transport etc etc
:Thumbs-up
I didn\'t mention taxation in the context of revisiting the structure of the education system as an integrated whole. I probably would not have had any education were it not for state support so I am perhaps overly attached to the concept. Like you, there are aspects of the state\'s functionality that I don\'t and have never used but as a member of a wider group - community/society or whatever you call it - I do not think it is unfair for me to contribute to their funding or believe that such provisions should be withdrawn from others simply because they can be abused. As I am going to contribute I do like to think the systems in place are effective and fit for purpose. Even with the government left picking up 40% of the cost I don\'t think that is the case in education.
But the thrust of the discussion seems now be split between denouncing the worthless student body and why or how people can, given the current rules, identify a clear relationship between cost and benefit to them as individuals in applying education (like ointment) to improve future income. I think that\'s short sighted and ultimately divisive but, as I am not shopping for a degree and as you point out - this is a motoring forum, I\'ll confine myself to the advertisement pages. :WaveBye
What also annoys the hell out of me is the degree seems now to be a requirement for the most mundane technical engineering Jobs.
I\'m currently a design engineer for a small company that is part of a much larger one. I\'m probably lucky they took me on because of my experience (Time served machinist, Cad experience, HNC in mechanical engineering) because a lot would have shunned the lack of degree.
The disrespect of anything other than a degree path is a real shame in the UK now. An experience path has much greater benefits of a rounder employee than one that has only seen a class room.
There are exceptions to the rule. We have a lad in our office that is on his gap year. Commutes 40mins a day, never ill, anything that is needed is never a problem. He has learnt a huge amount and has given a great deal back. He is how our students should be in this current climate.
The thing that also got me was the idiots in the hoods and face covered saying its uni or selling drugs on the corner of the street just haven\'t got a clue and will never do anything beneficial with their lives in the long run. Uni is just a get out clause.
Shaun
They are probably requirements because references now mean absolutely diddly squat, i was in my local trade paint supplier the other and the manager was explaining how a recent employee got caught by cctv cameras with his hand in the till, although he had been told by law that the cameras were there, now the manager is getting asked for references from new job applications but he actually cant put that he was caught stealing, he can only be factual about this guys good points!!!!
He can refuse to give him one though.
Shaun
Yeah you can\'t give someone a bad referance. You can how ever refuse to give one at all. It pretty obvious if someone refuses to give a referance that its because the said person had faults.
How about also, heavily discounting (as in free) nursing, medical, teaching etc and other other degrees that benefits the country?
Even the poor Royal Roller has lost it\'s job because of the riots after Camilla was "poked with a stick".
Some very good points being raised, so I thought I would add a couple of my thoughts and experiences. :Typing
Having finished my Masters in Engineering four years ago, I left uni with just over £16,000 of debt in student loans (including the calculated interest). My first wage, was £21k a year which at the time was well above the threshold for paying my loan back, but in these new plans would be just on the cusp. Earning that much I paid back about £60-£70 a month towards my loan, which looking back, was an insignificant amount. It had no effect on my ability to have a comfortable standard of living (I rented my own 2 bed flat, could run a car, and socialise how and when I wanted).
Under the current proposals, paying back £7 a month (I keep thinking this must be a typo, or incorrect) is going to have even less of an impact on a graduate\'s standard of living. My only concern is that putting the payback rate so low will effectively mean the debt won\'t be cleared in a lifetime (unless it ramps up more with earnings than it does in the current system). At this point it becomes debateable whether the loan has any affect on the individual at all. Yes for a 3yr degree you could have £27k debt, but if you\'re paying back so little it doesn\'t affect your standard of living, is the total debt really that bad?
I think headlines of the total debt will put people off, but maybe because the information coming out doesn\'t give prospective students any idea of how it will actually affect their lives after uni and I think this is where the governmant has really dropped the ball.
Quote from: jetpilot;732480How about also, heavily discounting (as in free) nursing, medical, teaching etc and other other degrees that benefits the country?
Nice idea, but now you\'ll open a new can of worms as the government decides which courses are of benefit and which are not, and going back to Nik\'s point of a degree being a way of showing potentially which people can learn to a set level, as apposed to what they actually learn, then this would be a very large can of worms. Also you\'ll get people who do what my sister did and study to get a degree in midwifery and then sod off to live in another country as their new found degree gives them more points for emigration, thus meaning we foot the bill for their learning and then another country benefits from this and our government have no way of getting their money back.
But if we can solve these issues I think it\'s actually quite a good idea and could be a soultion or at least help the current situation.
Also in responce to what Shaun said about idiots in hoods and choosing between drugs and University.
These idiots (good choice of words BTW) are just that idiots, if they think the only options in life are selling drugs or going to university then i dont think they are really university candidates to begin with. Ok so they had a valid point about the money given out if they study (£30 per week but I forget the name for it at the mo) and I think this is a good idea to help those with lower earnings to study at college etc, but in terms of degrees/university and protesting, i think they just wanted to protest and used any excuse for their behaviour.
But as it stands, in my opinion, the whole education systems is set up to teach people in a fairly rigid fashion. But as we now know there are many different ways in which people learn and how ours brains work. Some people prefer a hands on approach, some need to think things through, some need to understand why before how, some need to know how before why etc. The current way most learning is delivered is skewed towards those that learn in one set way and these people will usually perform much better in exams, but then you have those that needs a hands on approach and they will always struggle to get a degree and display to employers that they can learn but in a different way that we currently teach. So in effect they are penalised for how their minds works and will not get such high grades, thus meaning employers may over look them for someone who has the higher grades but may not be as suitable for the role.
And yes I am talking about myself here too, I am not a stupid person but I hate sitting in a room while someone reads out loud from a text book, mainly as I have a fairly high speed of reading and I get frustrated waiting while people catch up and my attention wanders but also because I learn quite quickly from hands on experience which is usually only a small part of any learning plan. So i feel the education systems has let me down and I guess I do feel resentment/jealousy towards those that ask me to pay for other people to use systems that did not help me.
Quote from: od404;732499Some very good points being raised, so I thought I would add a couple of my thoughts and experiences.
I think. although unsure, it is an extra £7 a month on current payback total!
Could i ask, having been there and done it, a degree, would you have not done it if the fees were what they are going to be now?
Bobbit, i think it would be easy to say, if you subsequently took those skills abroad, you would be liable for the relevant course costs.
I was never academic, nothing much interested me at school apart from sport. Fortunately my family aware of this and put no real pressure on me to achieve better at school, apart from the usual, you could do better if you wanted to. I actually left school feeling quite despondent, not so much i felt a failure but really wasnt sure what way to turn as to be fair, you are only pushed in one direction at school (well my day anyway) and no other possible talents were nurtured as to be fair they arent catered for!
Apart from basic english skills, reading, writing, spelling etc and basic maths, school was an utter waste or time for me. I have taken nothing from the subjects i chose, Geography, French, Biology and cant even remember what else and had any use from them!
I soon found though i did have skills, everyday was a learning curve and strangely one that i enjoyed. I found i could learn and had an appetite for it, but there is a key point, only in things i was actually interested in. I was happy to read, absorb, write things down for reference, all the things i was "supposed" to do at school! I learned more in a few years than lets say, 10 years at school!
So what does school teach you, in my opinion, school is nothing but a test of your ability to retain and memorise information! It is about conforming to society!
Jetpilot, thats exactly my point, school teaches in a set way, and if your brain does not work in that way then you are screwed (that would have been a lot easier to type wouldn\'t it? :Hammer)
And as to moving abroad, how will the government expect to get their money? Sent an invoice and expect the money? I agree that they should pay the money but in the case of my Sis, she had a lot of the course paid for and then buggered off to Oz. The government cant expect to get that money back and just write it off, leaving us to foot the bill. I know it\'s not going to be a lot of people that do that, but the number of people emegrating each year is increasing so we can expect more people to do this.
Quote from: jetpilot;732521I think. although unsure, it is an extra £7 a month on current payback total!
Could i ask, having been there and done it, a degree, would you have not done it if the fees were what they are going to be now?
In my case, I would probably do a degree even with the new fees. Even a £7 increase in payback at £21k a year doesn\'t really make much of a difference.
Now what I\'m not up to speed on is how this affects the ability to pay living costs...
When I was at uni the fees were £1100 a year, my loan was £3600 a year (or thereabouts). My loan actually covered my entire living costs over a year (rent, bills, food etc, but not drinking money). I was lucky that my parents were able to pay my fees, but my socialising money had to come from working, either during term or at the holidays.
Under this new system (and indeed the old system where fees were £3k a year) they talk a lot about loans to cover these, but do the loans have any provision for covering living costs? Bearing in mind I was doing 40hrs a week in lectures and lab time alone, then probably a further 10-15hrs a week in project and tutorial work on top of that, during term time I did not have time to work a job and the jobs I had during the holidays would never have covered my living costs. If there is provision for this within the loan and grant system (remember people from poor backgrounds are being offered grants as well as the loans), then all is ok. If not then I could see people being put off.
Again it boils down to a lack of communication, at least to the general public, who on the whole seem pretty ignorant of what the system actually consists of (all they see are the £9k headlines).
For me university has allowed me to get a job that I really enjoy and to reach a very good standard of living. Even with the debt levels being proposed I feel in my case it would still have been worth it as the payback level would not affect either my ability to enjoy my job or my standard of living.
Thanks od404, interesting to hear from someone with first hand knowledge and experience, so to the original post buddy, who do you think is doing the protesting, honest people who plan to use Uni as a stepping stone to higher earnings and learning or layabout bums or want a few easy years getting ....ed up at the tax payers expense masquerading behind the guise that they are investing in their and the countries future?
There definitely seems to be a mix of people at the protests (which seems to be the case for most protests these days). On one hand you have the vast majority being made up for by students who appear to just want to be heard (so lots of shouting but not much else), but on the other there are those who seem to have come just to cause trouble. There will also be people somewhere in the middle, which must make policing these things a complete nightmare.
The other thing (which again is down to very poor communication) is that I wonder if current students (those already within the higher education system and paying fees under the current rules) would even be charged the new fees? While I was at uni they brought in the £3k fees, but it only applied to those students starting uni for the first time. Those of us already there stayed with the old system. If that is the case then probably 70% of people protesting might want to consider whether they needed to be there at all and it would be students currently at 6th form and below who would be affected by this.
Why do we keep referring to them as loans? They aren\'t, they are a tax liability
There is no pressure to pay them back (other than if you earn over the required threshold)....they follow you to the grave, and won\'t have an affect when it comes to taking out a personal loan or mortgage.
Quote from: JonR;732541Why do we keep referring to them as loans? They aren\'t, they are a tax liability
5 letters versus 12? Helps to keep RSI at bay :D
Quote from: od404;7325425 letters versus 12? Helps to keep RSI at bay :D
lol, that is probably as sound an argument as half of the students who have been interviewed lately have put forward! And to think these are the cream of our industrial nation!!
QuoteIn my case, I would probably do a degree even with the new fees. Even a £7 increase in payback at £21k a year doesn\'t really make much of a difference.
I probably would as well, but thats easy said as i (like you) have already gone through the process & am now enjoying the benefits.
If i was looking at this through the eyes of a 16-18 year old and faced coming out with £27k worth of tuition fee debt as well as £15k of student loan debt i\'d be seriously worried. Especially as they now want the loans to be repaid at higher rates of interest also.
I\'m not really sold on the big benefit of not starting repayments until you earn £21k either. That will mean that your debt is just increasing whilst the interest is added. Another money making ploy me thinks :)
I don\'t think it matters how much you charge University students as it is still cheap in comparison to a lot of other countries. But being a student myself I don\'t think the price should have climaxed at tripple their current max. I also don\'t think it will stay at its current 9k max level by the end of the financial year.
Imo the government is doing this for A) to put more people into the job market at 18 to gain more revenues from taxing these people. B) at current levels the interest (which starts accumulating as soon as money is with the student) on student loans is 1% above base rate (making it 1.5% at the moment) so 1.5% a year on 10k (total after 3 years for tuition fees at current cap of 3300) isn\'t much, but the 1.5% on the 27k it will be much higher thus by the time base rate increases (I estimate 2013/14) the revenue gained from students paying back the minimum every year will be greatly increased. You also have to remember that the majority of students also take a maintenance loan increasing overall debt even further. The total bill for University will be much higher once these increases take effect and eventually when base rate goes up to 4/5% it once was it will take almost a lifetime to repay your student loan if you only pay the minimum every month. The current government fiscal plan has been manufactured for long term revenue which a lot of people don\'t see.
As said earlier in the thread the whole educational system needs a restructure not just charging more money for Uni fees. The government should educate properly from nursery as most of the people at Uni are extremely stupid :Hammer, have barely any knowledge of anything other than what interests them, which generally isn\'t very much. They are very narrow minded; Religion/Politics/Philosophy/Science/Geography etc are not what the majority of students know or care about, you cannot have a real conversation with the average student, it seems like they don\'t think, if that makes any sense (it does in my head :2Confused). Am I one of these students? I don\'t know...