Mazda Rotary Club

Evenin\' all.

Been perusing, whiling away the hours \'til I can get myself a rotary, and the following questions come to mind :

a) I haven\'t seen anything about water injection in these threads (OK, I\'ve only looked so far). This was pretty big on the GT-Fours to reduce temps and avoid detonation, is it not something anyone indulges in with a rotary ?

b) Haven\'t heard any mention of nitrous either. Anyone been down this route ??

Enjoy Rotorstock folks, look forward to seeing the pictures.

Mart. :cheers

There are a few cars running WI - mine is getting fitted as soon as the engine goes back in (having had the kit for months now).

It is generally regarded as risky to put nitrous on a turbo\'d rotary, how much of this is down to fact and how much general scaremongering I don\'t know.

There are a few rotors throughout the world running N2O with varied success. I think it just depends on how it is set up.
From what I have read some of the big gas installs (100+bhp)can cause problems, because the rotor tips don\'t really like the sudden drop in temperature.

But like Robbie says this could just be scare mongering

My friend has just had to do a full rebuild on his Supra twin turbo due to the water injection failing, the solenoid valve stuck open and flooded the engine causing muchos damage.

Both of these are valid for a rotary. It\'s an otto cycle engine after all.  It really comes down to the fact that people are only just starting to push the limits on rotary engines and getting to the point where WI is a necessity rather than a niceity.

I believe that a shot of no more 50/60hp is fine even for a rotary..if you set up the nitrous correctly (ie with a nitrous progressive controller ) you should be fine..A friend of mine will install such a system in his FD in June and maybe I\'ll follow and use it in my FC.. :)
Ah I forgot to mention that wet nitrous systems are recommended for supercharged and turbocharged engines.

George

Cool, sounds good George, let us know how you get on.

I don\'t know what problems rotaries have with detonation (if any), but anything that cools the combustion cycle can only help with these hot engines.

Cheers.

This drop in temp is always good but there are some people who believe that this sudden drop in air  temp(if i am not mistaken, the nitro lowers air temp by 75 degrees) is not good for the rotary engine..
Try this site, it has a nice article about nitro and rotaries..
//www.1300cc.com/howto/how2/NOS.htm

All I ever needed to know, thank you !

Mart.

You are welcome :)
If you decide to install a wet nitro system and you do it before me, plz let me know..

George

Need to buy the car first. I\'m sure 400 bhp will keep me honest for a while but I\'ll let you know when I plan to go down the nitrous route.....

Mart.

It\'s interesting that the article doesn\'t recommend N2O with turbo\'s because of the boost creep.

Surely there must be ways of combating boost creep?  I wouldn\'t want to have turbo OR N2O :(

I see that he is persisting with running both though :confused:

Chris the best way to eliminate boost creep is an external wastgate..but it\'s an expensive way..
If you set up your car correctly and you have all the necessary parts, nitro can help your turbine spinning in lower rpm..
I am a bit persisting because I have seen turbo cars fitted with nitro where sometimes they lose traction even in 4th gear and they have full power in the turbine even 1000rpm lower...:eek:
I\'ll see if my friend\'s FD can cope wth the extra \'nitro\' power first and then I\'ll take my final decision..hehehe  :D

It\'s good to know that there is a way, even though it is at a cost.

Please do post a report of how your friend gets on, I\'m sure there are a lot if intersted people on this forum :)

I think that N2O+Rotary is a case of knowing what you are doing.

I know of guys doubling the hp of a non-turbo rotary, and I also know of guys getting amazing hp out of a turbo rotary+NOS.

//www.evil7.com \'s RX-7 will be an example of how to run NOS on a rotor, should be going in the next few months.

Don\'t be close minded, you can get it all to work.

WOW.

That is the stuff my dreams are made of.  Having the expertise, time and money to achieve that must be incredible

I will be following this and your 4rotor project closely ;)

Nitrous Oxide gas is what we normally call our little helper. When used properly it is a good safe boost to performance. A wet system is necessary and you must always make extra allowances for fuel octane limits and ignition timing retard when installing your system. A high rpm activation point is usually rec. also. If you are keen post your set up and I will do my best to point you in the safe direction. It should be no more dangerous than raising your boost levels.
REgards-Anthony

Wet nitrous systems are really very much old technology. In order to do NOS on a turbo \'properly\' you really need a system where the ECU is in control of

1. Fuel
2. Spark
3. Wastegate
4. NOS
5. monitoring systems (if NOS runs out etc)

You then have the ability to control things such that you either use the NOS to aid spool-up at low RPM (which only needs a 20HP or so shot), or can run a constant flow regime.

The technology is all there, just that most of the customers for NOS systems tend to come from the lower end of the gene pool thus not making research into well designed solutions profitable.

why a high rev application for a turbo\'d car?  Surely nos in the lower range with a boost cutoff switch allowing the car to get into the rev range quicker?

BUZNUTS : I am in the research stage at the moment and there is a helluva lot of research to do as any upgrade has a knock on effect to all the surrounding components, which in turn need research etc.  Rest assured, all my findings and subsequent build will be posted in full :)

bill : you say "wet" is old and everything should be under ECU control which sounds good.  I\'ve only heard of wet (fogging) or dry (injection) systems, how does ECU N2O work?  Is it a type of dry system?

from memory the wet system is better, as the injectors could easily reach 100% once the nitrous is activated.  You\'d also need a stronger fuel pump...

The reason I have always used a wet sytem is to give me the ability to use different octane fuels for the N2O enrichment. Also the likelyhood of a Rotor having the ability to flow the extra ammount of fuel through the injectors is fairly low. I know there is the accuracy debate but in reality a N2O shot involves a linear ammount of gas which only requires a linear ammount of fuel to be added, Dry systems are very effective and safe for small shots but if you only require a small increase it will be far safer to add a small ammount of boost. The smoother transition of boost from a turbo rather than N2O is more gentle on your engine and easier to control possible detonation.
REgards-Anthony

Bill

With the greatest respect (and I sincerely mean that), how many big power/NOS\'d/etc Rotary engines have you built or been involved in? I respect your constructive critisism and note your valid remarks relating to the design aspects of some of the work seen on here. I am however intrigued to know what practical experience you have in these kind of applications? I appreciate that your theory is I\'m sure most accurate, I just would be interested to hear of the practical applications you have had a hand in that back up what you have to say - especially when you are talking about the work of some seriuosly well known rotary tuners and many of us arent able to split the wheat from the chaff.

The CPC manifold the other week, you basically tore apart on its \'technical demerit\'; I appreciate that theoretically a better design exists - but based on some of the motors that CPC have put together I\'m presuming that they are aware of its limitations and this is considered in the overal package. Not having built any 500hp+ rotors I\'m not in any position to say thats inadequate or this is a serious compromise - because in practise I dont know how the thing performs in Reality when its bolted in a car and setup.

Now you appear to want to suggest that Anthony (as in Rodriguez - i.e. Mr MazTech) is doing his NOS installs \'incorrectly\'; I\'m wondering the same thing - on paper you have the correct answer - but do you have any practical experience of this application with which to backup what you say? otherwise your opinions are purely theoretical, arent they? (not that theres any thing wrong with theory!)

Please dont take this post the wrong way, I\'m just interested (as a fair few people are on this forum) to hear some of your back ground and practical experience in building rotors - with which to weight the reliance myself and others might place upon your opinions.

Thanks,

Mr MazTech:

Quotethe likelyhood of a Rotor having the ability to flow the extra ammount of fuel through the injectors is fairly low

ArchBish:

Quotethe injectors could easily reach 100% once the nitrous is activated

SEE!!!!  SEE HOW TECHNICAL I AM!!!!!

all bow down before ArchBish: Technical Guru, Tent King and Spiritual Leader of the Rotorheads...

Its all down to how you approach the system.

Do want an integrated control regime, or a core ECU with bolts ons for this that and the other from different manufacturers that don\'t communicate with each other.

I know which one I would prefer.

A wet system gives you very little control. If you approach a dry system from the point of total ECU control then you can phase in the onset of boost exactly as you want rather than a wet system which gives you either

a) nothing
b) a kick in the back and total loss of traction as you shoot from vac to 18PSI, do not pass go, do not collect £200 in about 0.3 seconds. Very good for impressing your mates on a cruise I\'m sure, but as part of a well thought out engine control strategy not the greatest.

Rich: Whenever anyone comes out with \'show me a big horsepower engine you have built\' then that means that you are no longer interested in exploring the possibilities of technology, but merely lowering yourself to a simian \'mine\'s bigger than yours\'. I have no need to prove anything to anyone. I am here to promote debate based on fundamental scientific tenets. If the lack of emprical evidence galls you then that is your loss not mine. You seem to see everything in black and white. Shame. But please do not let the limitations of your paradigm spoil things for those who do want to explore new ways of doing things.

Hey Guys,
I dont want to flame or cause dramas only wanting to help. My answers might not be the only ones but I give them so that you guys can consider them.  I am sure others will have different opinions that also work well.
REgards-Anthony

Guys guys guys,  I don\'t think you know who Anthony is!!!!!!!  :)

He is the tuner of one of the fastest rotarys in the world, and many many awesome cars.

Please - take advice from this man as it is very close to being gospel!

He joined up yesterday, and I am honoured to have him on board!

There are a number of N2O controllers that increment the nitrous and fuel fed through the jets from 5 to 100%, and the time taken to introduce these increments.  And they run externally to the ECU!!

Thanks for the kind words Glen, it is good to be involved in healthy debate, however I do not appreciate anyone assuming that my experience is not based on scientific reason. Always remember that theory is and will only ever be the foreplay to practise, and far more science is involved in the diagnosis of results rather than purely the dabbling in theory. I hope you can take this the right way and always welcome other opinions as they have historically been a source for answers to my own developments, having a differing point of view. You see it has nothing to do with whether mine is bigger than yours.jk
REgards-Anthony
P.S. Just thought you would like to know that Simon Geshcus(nispro) and myself developed the N2O control for MOTEC engine management systems and I developed it for Microtech Engine Management systems, so I am not adverse to ECU controls.

No probs. matey, Rich knew who you were also :)

Looking very much forward to reading all your posts!  wish there were more people like you on here - but knowledge like yours is rare, so thanks again for joining up and posting.

.ps Please give us some gossip in the Chit Chat section, what cars have you been working on lately, times run etc. when you get a moment.

Why are you being abusive toward me - I just asked a valid question I thought; do you have the experience to confirm whether or not what you say in theory is actually valid in practise? Err, ok, I have the intellect of a slug and am unable to grasp new concepts. Got that much I think...:rolleyes:

You "promote debate based on fundamental scientific tenets"?? From the CPC thread and this one, you seem to promote debate by berating others\' work (e.g. CPC\'s manifold) with YOUR OPINION. I am merely trying to determine to what extent my reliance upon that opinion should be placed, by trying to learn some thing of your back ground and experiences. If this causes you offence then I apologise.

As for \'seeing everything in black and white\' - does that not ring true for "this is how things are in theory, so this is how they must therefore be in practise"?

QuoteOriginally posted by BUZNUTS
Always remember that theory is and will only ever be the foreplay to practise

Bill - this was what I was (perhaps poorly) driving at. Whether you had ever gotten further than foreplay :D

Anthony - I\'d like to echo Glenn\'s words and welcome you and your experience :)

Ditto. I\'ve read much of yourself and MazTech over the last couple of years on the variuos forums.

Are you back racing again?

I can\'t understand all of the boot kicking that is going on here.
Words really can be used to benefit and not just slag all of the time you know.
It seems to me that everyone is an expert or wants to be in the corner of an expert.Why not just notice and take on board all of the valid comments made without getting hot under the collar all the time?
Welcome to the club Anthony,it is good to have you on board.
All you others ought to listen to what both Anthony and Bill have to say,you might just learn something useful.
You will note that Anthony did not slag Bill off cos he has also developed the very thing to control Nos with the Motec that Bill was on about.
Anthony knowing that we are in the early developement of rotaries here was probably keeping it simple and fairly reasonably priced.
Bill was suggesting the very best way(Which is proven BTW) to run a Nos system.
BOTH VIEWPOINTS ARE VALID!
I also appreciate the point that you made Anthony about learning from opposing points of view.That is how I have often learned something new too.In fact I think the real point is that there is usually more than one way to skin a cat,ie: you often can achieve the same result in various ways.
Rich\'s knowing who Anthony is suggests some kind of behind the scenes communication?I think you will find that quite a few of us probably in the main read "Fast Fours" too.
All due respect but we are all people,not Gods!Our experience in various fields including engines,Nos and other technologies can ALL help us.
Come on guys,all criticism can be healthy if no one takes it too personally.
Lets all appreciate each of us have certain knowledge that can be helpful.
I for one have taken much criticism over the years,some good and some bad,sometimes it is hard to take but in the long run see it for what it is,Constructive criticism.

Kind regards to all.
Carl
:)

Hmm, didn\'t quite have this sort of debate in mind when I started the thread, but I think my nitrous questions have been answered. Anyone want to elaborate on the use of water injection on rotaries ???

Mart.

QuoteHmm, didn\'t quite have this sort of debate in mind when I started the thread

lol, you trouble maker:D ;)

QuoteOriginally posted by Carl
Rich\'s knowing who Anthony is suggests some kind of behind the scenes communication?

No, it suggests that I know who Anthony is from Adam - as quite clearly many do not. Not that I really see the point - would it matter if I did know Anthony?! You\'re suggesting that knowing some one with expertise personally might give weight to what I say? I certainly dont believe that if its what you mean!

Carl, this is not a personal attack; like any one else with a passion for some thing I read a lot about Rotors like many, and I respect all those who have achieved results as I believe they are people who I/we can learn from. At no point did I slag off any thing Bill had to say or any work he might\'ve done - he quite clearly has much of value to contribute. I do however think I have the \'right\' to asked a valid question about his practical experiences with Rotaries - as surely that has some bearing on how I interpret what he says about how to do this or that? There are many on the internet who spout this/that (me one of them obviuosly!), happy to give their opinion; I dont consider what they say unless they give me good reason to suggest that their opinion is worthwhile or substantiatable.

I just like to know whom I\'m taking notice of - thats all.

I know N2O makes you feel quite giddy if you breathe it too much, but I don\'t know what size jets you\'d need for that.  Presumably the other mods would include a comfy sofa, Hong Kong Phuey videos and some mars bars...

Anyone want a wine gum?? *stoned grin*

QuoteOriginally posted by 20B_boy
No, it suggests that I know who Anthony is from Adam - as quite clearly many do not. .

Sorry Rich,I was meaning that you and Glen had probably been in communication that you knew who Anthony was,that\'s all.
Not everything has to be proven practicably by the person offering advice on the subject.
There are many on this and other forums who offer advice that they themselves have not necessarily put into practice but that does not mean that they are talking rubbish either.They may have a much better technical understanding than me.
I think the point is that you were critical of Bill refering to the CPC exhaust manifold again and clearly trying to undermine his valid comments about Nos on this thread.
It may have not been intended as a dig but it looked that way to me.
Are you saying that you would never take notice of anyone who had not actually done the thing they are suggesting in a practical way?
Kind regards
Carl

BTW Rich,
How is your turbo 2?
Did it last rotorstock?
Kind regards
Carl

QuoteOriginally posted by Archbish
I know N2O makes you feel quite giddy if you breathe it too much, but I don\'t know what size jets you\'d need for that.  Presumably the other mods would include a comfy sofa, Hong Kong Phuey videos and some mars bars...

Anyone want a wine gum?? *stoned grin*

Don\'t you need a Dentist to go along with the Nos though?
I don\'t like the sound of that!
Kind regards
Carl

QuoteOriginally posted by Mart160plus
Anyone want to elaborate on the use of water injection on rotaries ???

Mart.

Water injection is very useful on rotaries.(And cooling down threads too!)
You need to be working the engine more than stock to really see the benefits though.There are some on here who are using it,there have also been some threads on it in the past.Try a search and you will see.
Kind regards
Carl

SHUT UP CARL I HATE YOU AND I HATE SI AND I HATE ANDYP AND I HATE GRINDER AND I HATE GURJ AND I HATE CLIVE AND I HATE FISH AND I HATE GLENN AND I HATE EVERYONE AND YOU\'RE ALL WRONG AND I THINK MART IS THE DEVILS CHILD FOR STARTING THIS THREAD

I\'m quite partial to 20B_Boy and a tub of strawberry cheesecake hagen daaz.  Not at the same time, of course...

QuoteOriginally posted by BUZNUTS
 If you are keen post your set up and I will do my best to point you in the safe direction.
 [/B]

What exactly do you need do know??Plz tell me cos I really need all the help I can get before installing the Nos(if I go on with it judging from how my friend\'s FD \'behaves\' since he\'s installing the system first).. :)

George

QuoteOriginally posted by Archbish
SHUT UP CARL I HATE YOU AND I HATE SI AND I HATE ANDYP AND I HATE GRINDER AND I HATE GURJ AND I HATE CLIVE AND I HATE FISH AND I HATE GLENN AND I HATE EVERYONE AND YOU\'RE ALL WRONG AND I THINK MART IS THE DEVILS CHILD FOR STARTING THIS THREAD

I\'m quite partial to 20B_Boy and a tub of strawberry cheesecake hagen daaz.  Not at the same time, of course...

I can take the constructive criticism,you love me really don\'t you OJ?Please say that you do?Please...Hugs and kisses....
Kinder than usual regards
Carl:rolleyes:

well, OK then - I love you too Carl (or Big Cuddly Hairy C as I like to call you!!) *grin*

Love and hugs

OJ
xxxxxxx

i luv anyone & everyone too but then i am cheap lol
A good discussion is always a good thing IMO although things can often by misjudged when writen in black & white even where the pros & cons aren\'t so clear cut but anyway as i say it\'s all good & shouldn\'t be taken to heart....
Si (resisting using the debate term for reasons of an OJ nature (http://mindscraps.com/s/cwm/3dlil/errr.gif) lol)

QuoteAND I THINK MART IS THE DEVILS CHILD FOR STARTING THIS THREAD

So you found out, and I\'ve only been here five minutes !! Can\'t the devil\'s offspring get to hell and back in a rotary ?? (got to be a song title in there somewhere.....)

Mart.
:evillaugh

What\'s the practical limit when adding nitrous to a rotary then? Previous threads seem to suggest anything above 25bhp is a problem, but does this still apply to a proper ECU controlled system?

QuoteOriginally posted by Carl
Sorry Rich,I was meaning that you and Glen had probably been in communication that you knew who Anthony was,that\'s all.

Carl,

I didn\'t even know Anthony was coming on board, what would it matter if I did.  If you would look around the forums yourself you would see his posts, Ausrotary, rx7forum etc. (I believe that is how Rich would know who he is).  Doesn\'t take much to find these things out - that he knows his stuff.  Sounds like you are having a dig at me!!  You back up Bill all the time, he still hasn\'t posted anything back about how he would have designed the exhaust manifold - anyway on with this exciting thread!

Again I can understand where Bill is coming from with the dry system and having the ECU control it all  BUT...  My understanding is that for injectors to be working correctly they have to be operating at around 80-90% of their capacity (to get the fuel to atomise correctly).  How is a dry system going to be able to flow the EXTRA amount of fuel required when a 100-200-300hp shot of nitrous is injected?  I suppose you could have a series of injectors that are turned on and off with the nos shot - but I don\'t think this would be a good idea from the safety point of view.  When it comes to the practicality side of this, Anthony has been there and done it and is still doing it -  using different fuels via the wet system is something I didn\'t even think about/know about.

BTW - I have not secretly communicated with anyone on this point!!!

Roundabout-Now, for NA rotaries it is possible to double the hp.  For turbo set-ups I\'m not really sure - Anthony is your man to answer that.  I believe again when you know what you are doing, doubling hp should be achievable.  I know you have the right ECU to control it all (M800)  :)

.ps Top thread Mart160plus!

QuoteOriginally posted by gbutcher
 

I didn\'t even know Anthony was coming on board, what would it matter if I did.  If you would look around the forums yourself you would see his posts, Ausrotary, rx7forum etc. (I believe that is how Rich would know who he is).  Doesn\'t take much to find these things out - that he knows his stuff.  Sounds like you are having a dig at me!!  You back up Bill all the time, he still hasn\'t posted anything back about how he would have designed the exhaust manifold - anyway on with this exciting thread!

So again we are reduced to dragging up the last time you threw your toys out of your pram. This is really not a healthy way to cultivate a forum. A clique yes, a forum no. It would appear that you are after an arrangement where you lord it over your chosen acolytes and sycophants. As a result this is clearly not a forum or club that I wish to be associated with.

As I said before I do not have to justify myself to you. The engineering council is happy to accept my creditentials as a Chartered Engineer so your opinion means little to me.

But for the record:

http://www.rx7club.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=309696

Is an example of a very good SINGLE turbo manifold. You can see the straight run out of both ports as far as possible before the turn and the attempts to make the wastegate branch out as evenly as possible from the main runners. Does not address the divergence in the exhaust sleeve that causes huge turbulence and loses a lot of blowdown energy, but very few people do.

Now if you will all excuse me, I have an EFI system to assemble for a Gen 1 for someone.

I\'m sorry Bill if this Forum isn\'t good enough for you, you will be missed.

I did actually try to make a point with my comment about the dry vs wet system - not that it matters now.

Thanks for the tips on the manifold, I\'ll be sure to pass the information on.

Hi Glenn,
I do frequent the other forums from time to time.
I just don\'t comment on them.
As to my support of Bill it is simply because he is right, no if\'s,no but\'s,and I think I am right in saying that I have backed him up twice,you have slated him twice and backed up CPC more than once.It is not personal but don\'t say someone must be wrong cos they either have not actually done something or they are not Australian.
The work on rotaries that people in Australia have done over the years is amazing,fantastic,brilliant and really appreciated by me,it does not mean that it cannot be improved upon,either by them or us.If it was at its limit then we would not have further developement taking place in Australia any more.
How many engines have you built Glenn?I think, but maybe wrong, from your comments that you have always had someone build them for you?
That does not make me think that your opinion is automatically wrong through a lack of practical experience in building engines,you know as much about what makes them go as many an engine builder does,how to do it maybe another matter.
I value your post\'s on techy stuff just as much as the next man,keep them up but let us give an opinion too.
Note my comment about there being more than one way to sucssesfully achieve certain things.
Would you not agree that the CPC exhaust could be improved upon Glen?It could,so can most things.
Would you not agree that with the right ancillaries and extra injectors probably placed in the inlet ports along with the Nos, that an ECU control is the very best approach?Albeit expensive and time consuming?It can work.
The wet Nos system is the easiest route to take and least expensive.
As to being able to run a higher octane fuel for the Nos you could simply have the Nos fuel injectors running from a seperate smaller fuel tank and pump that is controlled by the ECU too.

On a personal note I know and freely admit that my skills/knowledge is way behind the workshops in Australia,but I am also trying out things to try to catchup,who knows,one day the fastest rotary might just be in Britain!We will be standing on the shoulders of giants from Australia and Puerto Rico,Japan and the States in our quest though!

Thankyou for your input about Rich\'s comments.It just seemed from your words that I quote "No probs. matey, Rich knew who you were also " that you and Rich had been in communication with you at some point about Anthony.I guess I was wrong.

Please ,please do not take this post personaly,it is not meant that way.
Kind regards
forever learning Carl

Bill will be much missed as he had alot to offer, and more than most of us could know,if you get to know him he is extremely knowledgeble about a broad range of subjects,he has worked on some pretty serious things that I think he cannot talk about(Official secrets) but most of us would dream about.And these things would have been far more challenging than an old outdated rotary engine that is still basically a 40 year old design.
Shame he has been knocked a bit for his knowledge.
I hope he does not stay away.
He was the "Q" of our forum.(James Bond)
Kind regards
Carl
:confused:

Bill,
I hope it has not been my presence that has prompted your departure, this was in no way my intention. As I have said in my previous posts I welcome others opinions and have never implied that yours is wrong, only that what I offerred seemed to be the application for what being enquired about. Your opinion is as valid as all of ours and I think that the loss of you from this forum will be a wasted one, for you as well. I hope that you can see the logic in what I say as this is another example of how thick skinned you must be on the net. As you should well know "everyone is an expert in the cyberworld", but you will find that knowledge or the lack of knowledge will always show through.
REgards-Anthony

QuoteOriginally posted by Carl
It is not personal but don\'t say someone must be wrong cos they either have not actually done something or they are not Australian.

Hmmm, I\'ll leave that?

QuoteOriginally posted by Carl

How many engines have you built Glenn?I think, but maybe wrong, from your comments that you have always had someone
build them for you?

None Carl, never said I have - but have spent years trying to find the right people who can.  But it isn\'t just about the engine is it! :)

QuoteOriginally posted by Carl
Would you not agree that the CPC exhaust could be improved upon Glen?It could,so can most things.
[/B]

Sure, but if you go back to that thread - I had asked Bill to come forward at the time and show us the way it should be done, as he only gave it a 6 out of 10.  He has now done this (shown for a SINGLE turbo), and as I said I will show some people and get their opinions.

QuoteOriginally posted by Carl
Would you not agree that with the right ancillaries and extra injectors probably placed in the inlet ports along with the Nos, that an ECU control is the very best approach?Albeit expensive and time consuming?It can work.
The wet Nos system is the easiest route to take and least expensive.
As to being able to run a higher octane fuel for the Nos you could simply have the Nos fuel injectors running from a seperate smaller fuel tank and pump that is controlled by the ECU too.
[/B]

Goes without saying Carl, but I still refer back to my point/question which hasn\'t been answered.  What you are saying is basically to run a wet system if you are going to use a seperate fuel tank/pump system anyway?  Maybe I missed something there?


I never asked Bill to leave, but some of his comments I think are quite offensive - like the one about "The technology is all there, just that most of the customers for NOS systems tend to come from the lower end of the gene pool thus not making research into well designed solutions profitable."

I find that pretty offensive - not personally but on a general scale.

Bill is more than welcome, but he shouldn\'t treat everyone like they are an idiot because they aren\'t an Engineer.

What we need is a good session down a watering hole!
I think that the net is a very difficult place to judge how people really feel in their comments.
Shame Glenn and Anthony are so far away.I would invite you both to my local and I am sure we would all see things in a totaly different light face to face.
I reckon that quite a few would want to join us too with Anthony\'s presence.It may priove to be a rather tiring experience too!LOL.
Come Si give us a decent smily?Down the pub or something?
Kind regards
Carl

:wave

My first thread and people are threatening to leave already... :(

Folks, I\'ve been a member of other clubs and message boards and people left those clubs and set up their own because of the way people were treated when they shared their opinions. I actually run my own car club for just such a reason.
We all have opinions on things, some are right, some are wrong, but as we\'re all different this will always be the case.
Trick is not to get your knickers in a twist, take the bait and vent online.
I can\'t wait to meet you all and talk rotaries and everything connected with them, I just hope unlike other clubs we can focus on our appreciation of the rotary engine and not fall into the \'rubbing up the wrong way\' trap.

Good luck (he says from lotus position atop a mountain).

Mart.:cheers

Welcome to the skyline forum.... *lmao*

LOL - gotta love it eh!

Hope we haven\'t put you off Mart160plus!, I suppose these sorts of things just develop over time on Forums.

We are a pretty stable club/forum - honest! :)


Anyways, back on topic - Carl, talk to me about my comments.  Did I miss something with the Dry System set-up you are talking about? with the fuel tank etc.

Let\'s learn learn learn!

Hi Glenn,
I was just suggesting that basically with a Nos controller ECU and seperate tank that you could do as Anthony has said and run exotic fuel in the tank for the Nos or you could still run from the existing aftermarket ECU that is running the engine management the same setup where the Nos is controlled by it,the latter method would enable the engine mangement ECU to be properly aware as it were of all other parameters going on in the engine at the time of Nos operation.
In other words both would work.
It would have to have it\'s own injectors and high pressure pump for the fuel in a sort of stand alone fashion much like a wet nos system but with ECU control.
BTW my comment about Aussies was not meant to be a slur,I think being quoted out of context it looks that way.
Kind regards
Carl

Glenn,
can you get Anthony to answer my question on the setup on the RX3 a few years back?
Kind regards
Carl

I\'m pretty sure the peterfarrell ECU has an auxilliary input.  This can be fed from N2O activation to tell the ECU the Nitrous is being used.

This can be used with dry or wet systems - the dry systems will get the ECU to arse around fuelling and timing, the Wet systems will only arse around with the timing, and fuelling if necessary.

Shame the ECU can\'t deal with bigger injectors...

Actually (bit of a side track), does the ecu need to know about injector size?  Would it only need to know the duty to run the injectors at?

Hmm... this looks like a job for me. I\'m not called "peace2make" for no reason.

Come on gentlemen this is just silly. Carl\'s right, a session down the watering hole is  what\'s needed here (geographical seperation notwithstanding). Besides, it\'s Carl\'s suggestion so I reckon he\'s buying. :D

Having limited technical knowledge, I personally find reading these posts really interesting so don\'t disappear Bill. Besides, I want to see more of your westy with a rotary because that sounds like a lot of fun!

Right, now you clever engine people can stop sparring and get back to serious business of making our rotaries go quicker.

If Carls buying name the pub and i\'ll be there:D

The induction and fueling system on the old RX3 was fairly complex but worked awesome. I must have been bored when I designed it but it proved to produce more power on 22psi than what most others were making on 30+. Using power to weight the only other rotor showing the same power with weight vs mph was Abel\'s R100.
It was twin turbocharged, Intercooled, Nitrous injected 13B, that ran 4 C16 injectors with a second bank of 4 Alcohol Injectors as a third bank mapped to the higher boost parameters. It also ran the seperate N2O fuel system that was seperately adjustable for pressure. I ran 2 NOS nozzles in the secondary ports only and a de-activation switch on the steering wheel for launching. The switching to the system ran through an arm switch, then a full throttle and then through the clutch as I didn\'t have a clutchless gearbox back then. The injectors were staged to operate primaries to 4500rpm and 4psi, then the secondaries joined in and finally the alcohol was introduced above 16 psi. The intake utilized twin sidedraft 40mm throttlebodies tha I bored the secondaries out to 48mm to maintain airspeed through the intake runners in the side plates, I tested various plenum volumes between 2lt-6lt and also varied the runner lenght until it achieved optimal results.
There were many other developments carried out on that car but it would take far to long to get into, but that should give you many hours of mind racking, God knows it did to me. I would have saved alot of money if they released PS2 back then.
REgards-Anthony
P.S. I hope that is what you were asking for,

But it was pretty standard other than that...

Absolutely standard and never been thrashed!!
-Anthony

QuoteOriginally posted by BUZNUTS
The induction and fueling system on the old RX3 was fairly complex but worked awesome. I must have been bored when I designed it but it proved to produce more power on 22psi than what most others were making on 30+. Using power to weight the only other rotor showing the same power with weight vs mph was Abel\'s R100.
It was twin turbocharged, Intercooled, Nitrous injected 13B, that ran 4 C16 injectors with a second bank of 4 Alcohol Injectors as a third bank mapped to the higher boost parameters. It also ran the seperate N2O fuel system that was seperately adjustable for pressure. I ran 2 NOS nozzles in the secondary ports only and a de-activation switch on the steering wheel for launching. The switching to the system ran through an arm switch, then a full throttle and then through the clutch as I didn\'t have a clutchless gearbox back then. The injectors were staged to operate primaries to 4500rpm and 4psi, then the secondaries joined in and finally the alcohol was introduced above 16 psi. The intake utilized twin sidedraft 40mm throttlebodies tha I bored the secondaries out to 48mm to maintain airspeed through the intake runners in the side plates, I tested various plenum volumes between 2lt-6lt and also varied the runner lenght until it achieved optimal results.
There were many other developments carried out on that car but it would take far to long to get into, but that should give you many hours of mind racking, God knows it did to me. I would have saved alot of money if they released PS2 back then.
REgards-Anthony
P.S. I hope that is what you were asking for,

Errr..!!...HELL YEAH!!!

Hi Anthony,
That is exactly what I wanted to know.Many thanks.
Kind regards
Carl

bit late but TO THE PUB (http://www.stopstart.freeserve.co.uk/smilie/cheers.gif)(http://www.stopstart.freeserve.co.uk/smilie/boozer.gif)(http://www.stopstart.freeserve.co.uk/smilie/guin.gif)


Si (AKA (http://www.stopstart.freeserve.co.uk/smilie/bier.gif) never been in a pub...(http://smilies.jeeptalk.org/otn/angels/newangel.gif))