Went to fit the walbro today and got stuck do i have to cut the metal hard line to fit the pump? I didnt think you did so thought i better ask! :confused:
Thanks :o
(http://i860.photobucket.com/albums/ab162/1990_fc3s_t2/dfsxhrtd/pump-1.jpg)
Mate, I got the same kit, thats the series 4 kit, not the series 5 kit, you need to trim that lil black bit, 1 sec I will try and find a pic of how mine looked....
Here is the completed pump
(http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l49/m1tch_2006/DSC00030smaller.jpg)
I cut mine, and two others ive seen cut theres. Also had to do it on a previous car. In an ideal world itd be nice for everything to be plug and play, but alas, many times it isnt. Mine would physically work, but the oem fuel supply connector and walbro pump feed neck are different sizes, and so dont fit together properly.
Cool, thanks ill go give that a blast! nearly chopped off the end of the hard line, although dont suppose it would have mattered too much!
Cheers :-) :Thumbs-up
Quote from: Koose;713723I cut mine, and two others ive seen cut theres. Also had to do it on a previous car. In an ideal world itd be nice for everything to be plug and play, but alas, many times it isnt. Mine would physically work, but the oem fuel supply connector and walbro pump feed neck are different sizes, and so dont fit together properly.
Found someone else that cut it here http://www.rx7turbo.com/fuelpump.htm
So guess it doesnt matter how its done. but i think the cutting method would give a better seal? Il see how it goes!
Thanks for the quick replies :wave
Quote from: 1990_fc3s_t2;713727Found someone else that cut it here http://www.rx7turbo.com/fuelpump.htm
So guess it doesnt matter how its done. but i think the cutting method would give a better seal? Il see how it goes!
Thanks for the quick replies :wave
Yeah cutting it was the only sensible way of doing it when i did mine, Mitch may well have had a different pump or kit as he mentioned. But my kit supposedly for a UK S5 89-91 just wouldnt have worked any other way.
Only other advice is be sure and do it nice and neat, slow and careful, heatshrink connections, and whatever you do (as i learnt from a new friend on here) dont trap any wires or anything in the cap (the top \'lid\' that bolts down and seals the tank) as this will mean your system is not pressurised and as we know, on fuel injection, you really need good to pressure to avoid air fuel issues.
Thanks again bud, ended up cutting it off with the grinder, all good except the electrical connectors i had are too small for the new pump wires. So gave up till another day! :Giggle
Now the car\'s stuck outside getting wet till i get it done! Damn weather was gorgeous when i brought it out. :mad:
hi mate,
do you still need the power stering loop, IE I can make u a copper one for free
cheers
Don\'t forget that the car will run stupidly rich on idle now if you don\'t have a fpr or fuel pump resistor :) smells good though :P
Quote from: m1tch;713820Don\'t forget that the car will run stupidly rich on idle now if you don\'t have a fpr or fuel pump resistor :) smells good though :P
How come ?
The stock pressure regulator can\'t handle full pump pressure, so the pump is \'throttled back\' be a series resistor which is in circuit on idle and low revs. As soon as you give it beans, the relay shorts out the resistor so the pump sees the full 12V and full pressure.
Walbro pumps take half the current of the stock pump to produce the same fuel delivery, so the resistor is actually too small a value for them, hence quite a few people end up running rich after the pump swap.
If you have an aftermarket FPR this isn\'t an issue.
adjustable fprs scare me !! Seen so many adjust themselves and its onlynoticed when theyve come to the rolling road.
Im slowly realising how fiddly these are to tune, all my previous cars have just been full exhaust and decat, intake, bit more boost and in some cases a remap. It seems with these, you cand do anything without having to do several other things haha. For example,
I bought a decat and cat back,which meant i had toget a fcd, but then my fuelling may not be great, so i bought a chipped ecu which was mapped for intake too, so i had to get an intake the fitting of the ecu also required fitment of a walbro, which means an FPR or fully programmable ecu may be required.....then with the boost up, it means i really want acooler intake so a different intercooler will be needed, and maybe some bigger injectors!! and all of this will culminate in me wearing my engine out quicker!! haha.
Im starting to understand the love hate rotory.
All the supporting mods are to make sure the engine is ok, don\'t forget once the car has a few bolt on parts like that, it will be running say 275bhp+ which is like 40% above stock power and its just a few bolt on bits, at 275bhp the engine is producing 211bhp per litre of displacement, the inefficient veyron only managed 125bhp per litre :) efficiency + ease of tune = rotary win :)
Quote from: Koose;713830Im slowly realising how fiddly these are to tune, all my previous cars have just been full exhaust and decat, intake, bit more boost and in some cases a remap. It seems with these, you cand do anything without having to do several other things haha. For example,
I bought a decat and cat back,which meant i had toget a fcd, but then my fuelling may not be great, so i bought a chipped ecu which was mapped for intake too, so i had to get an intake the fitting of the ecu also required fitment of a walbro, which means an FPR or fully programmable ecu may be required.....then with the boost up, it means i really want acooler intake so a different intercooler will be needed, and maybe some bigger injectors!! and all of this will culminate in me wearing my engine out quicker!! haha.
Im starting to understand the love hate rotory.
If you put exhaust and intake on without modding anything else - you just hit fuel cut - so it\'s not the end of the world, you just don\'t get to use the top end that you\'ve now unleashed.
With regards to the fuel pump swap - if you do the swap, all that normally happens is that the car runs a wee bit richer at idle / lower revs, provided you still have air pump and emissions stuff it will pass MOT, but I didn\'t notice any other ill effect from only doing that mod.
Regarding the FCD / Chipped ECU - you only want one of them - and preferably the latter one :) You don\'t need to put the rest of the goodies on the car to support the Chipped ECU - without them, the stock components will limit the boost to an already mapped area which is safe, doing it the other way around means that the engine / ancillaries can take the engine to places not in the stock map - which is not good ;)
For full tuning, eliminating the oil metering pump, running big boost or big single turbo\'s or eliminating lots of the stock engine harness then you need to go after market ECU.
This is quite a good guide to the tuning stages for FC\'s:
http://fc3spro.com/TECH/FM2W/power.htm
I\'ve got to somewhere between stage IV+ and V+ with the stock ECU and a piggy back and probably about as far as you can with the stock ecu still running things - it was running around 370bhp at the fly before I had to rebuild it for water seal failure, and currently I am just under 300bhp with some tuning work to do again ;) - it was running 17 psi boost before the rebuild, I\'m up to 10 at the moment but far too rich - hence my afr project
Right bit of an update, fuel pump installed, so i primed the system but thought it was a bit quiet def no louder than the stock pump? it started after a few seconds and ran pretty badly but it seemed to catch up and ran better. There isnt much fuel in the tank which may be my problem, im going to get some bp ultimate in the tank before i try again as the fuel is pretty old aswell! :o
Next problem, buddy club ecu worked and even idled better than stock but when revving from about 1200-3000rpm it stutters and sounds like its missing? so n380 back in and running good again...for now.
I have an apexi safc and can remove some fuel but cant seem to get it leaner than 11.4 at idle (same as stock pump) without it not running well. Is this too rich too pass mot? i can get it to 13 but it doesnt sound good and wants to die!
Nothing seems to have changed regarding afr\'s and the new pump?
Did you cut the hard pipe and fit the hose or did you use the hard pipe? I found mine wasn\'t sealing properly and so the fuel pressure was dropping as it was leaking where the pump joined the pipework.
I am guessing you aren\'t running an air pump? I am, and im getting leaner than 20:1 as the O2 sensor is measuring the air coming in via the air pump, and then dumping more fuel into the engine lol
I would suggest that you get a tank of fuel in there and try and again
Yup no air pump or acv, yeah i ended up cutting the hard line so got a good seal.
Im going to get some fuel tommorow and go from there. I cant drive anywhere yet as im not insured or taxed so limited in what i can do.
Ill try the other ecu again when iv got new fuel but i cant imagine it will be any better, so new ecu...maybe i should save a bit and get a power fc and do away with the piggyback stuff? :D
One other q, when letting off the accelerator the afr\'s shoot up to about 20 then when it gets to idle speed its back to 11.4 does this sound normal?
Yep - that\'s normal for the AFR\'s to go right up - the ECU will cut fuel to both rotor\'s or one rotor depending on rev\'s gear selection and clutch (yep - sounds weird, but there is some clever jiggery pokery to give a better deceleration and reduce \'popping\' when you let off the accelerator - some of it\'s mechanical and some controlled by the ECU).
Quote from: Prof;713872Yep - that\'s normal for the AFR\'s to go right up - the ECU will cut fuel to both rotor\'s or one rotor depending on rev\'s gear selection and clutch (yep - sounds weird, but there is some clever jiggery pokery to give a better deceleration and reduce \'popping\' when you let off the accelerator - some of it\'s mechanical and some controlled by the ECU).
Thanks for that, thought as much but wasnt sure, makes sense when you think about it! :Thumbs-up
Resurrection!
So I\'ve just bought a Walbo off M1tch (cheers fella) and I\'ve got a FPR coming from a mate. I\'ve done some searching but can\'t seem to find a guide to fitting the FPR on the FC. Does anyone have a "how to" link or any info of how to go about it? Do you have to modify the fuel rail to suit? Do you leave the stock one in place and run the new one inline with it?
Cheers
Ade
Quote from: Prof;713827The stock pressure regulator can\'t handle full pump pressure, so the pump is \'throttled back\' be a series resistor which is in circuit on idle and low revs. As soon as you give it beans, the relay shorts out the resistor so the pump sees the full 12V and full pressure.
Walbro pumps take half the current of the stock pump to produce the same fuel delivery, so the resistor is actually too small a value for them, hence quite a few people end up running rich after the pump swap.
If you have an aftermarket FPR this isn\'t an issue.
You can run the new FPR in series with the stock one - it will still work, and in fact will probably regulate pressure better than the stock one does at idle. The FPR needs to go between the fuel return line and the back of the secondary fuel rail
PS - what I posted just before editing this was a load of tosh - I was mesmerised by meerkats !!
Do you ever read a thread full of information and really try and take it all in? Then you get to the bottom thinking "what the hell did i just read?" When i change the fuel pump i\'m going to leave it to a proffesional i think.
All the time. You get used to it after a while.
Quote from: B.Martin;779943Do you ever read a thread full of information and really try and take it all in? Then you get to the bottom thinking "what the hell did i just read?"
LOL i must of read how to set the tps about ten times and i still cant get my stupid head round it!
Well, having a piston powered european car would be dull wouldn\'t it.
do not whack it series,, you can never lower the set pressure - only raise it
the same restriction that was previously a bottleneck with this pump remains in place
and so you will always have too high a pressure during low load conditions
for s5 ( oz ) with the steel anodised fuel rails,,, you need to s4 ( alum ) secondary fuel rail and a few washers to space it up
and with this combo, s5 primary,, s4 secondary rail ,, amounts to having two dampners,, and no reg,, so the aftermarket FPR just attaches to the firewall and is hooked up with the return/s from the rails
if required the s4 dampner can be unscrewed and replace with a banjo fitting
with s4 t2 ( oz and jap ) the reg is on the primary rail,, and you can replace it with the banjo ends and dampner from another s4 secondary rail
( or fit an s5 t2 primary rail )
Putting it in series is less that ideal, but does get around the problem caused by dropping a Walbro pump in the tank.
The Walbro uses a lot less current for the same flow rate, so with the stock fuel pump resistor relay on idle, the pump is flowing a lot more fuel than the stock one would do - the standard FPR doesn\'t seem to be able to regulate the pressure (observed), so the AFR\'s go down and the car runs stupidly rich at idle.
The stock FPR is quite good at regulating fuel pressure at higher pressures, so using the 2 FPR\'s in series would run the rails at the pressure of the most restrictive FPR. If you\'re external FPR is better at regulating the lower flow rate pressure - then it will determine the lower end - then whichever is set to the lowest pressure will regulate. It effectively makes the stock FPR redundant if both are set to the same vac/boost source - but as you say, you can\'t flow more fuel than the stock FPR would allow.
I run just an external HKS regulator - I removed the stock FPR and the pulsation dampner - but still run a series setup. I don\'t run banjo\'s for any of the connections - just gentle higher flowing bends on AN fittings - which means the fuel flow is more even and I don\'t see any dampening issues with 800 secondaries - you might if you went much larger.
With a parallel setup, the FPR sets the fuel pressure in both rails and acts as the dampener, so no pulsation dampner is necessary.
i beg the difference,, i am an ex control room process controller
( class 1 , zone 1,, explosive and asphixiating plant ,, hydrogen reduction )
and i know a thing or two about pumps,valves, bypasses, PLC\'s and also explosive limits
i have actually tried adding one in series before
and you will not get the fuel pressure lower than what is set already on the stock one
( which by your own admission will be often be too high with a walbro )
the reg cant stroke open enough to bypass it,, and so the pressure is at the high end of the factory 36-42 psi variances
in a stock setup,, all you have is the trim pot ( s4 ) or the AFM air bypass ( s5 ) to trim it , often not enough to avoid a flood start issue
when i did it,,( on a s5 NA ) i had 42 psi,, and there is no amount of adjusting the second aftermarket reg that will lower it
as i have said above,, the second reg will be useless unless you wish to run higher than stock pressures
when you go WOT,, and into boost,, and entirely different story,, as the volume bypassing through the stock reg drops ( the motor demands more )
and so it alone can sustain regulated pressure+ inlet pressure
( and so no need even for the aftermarket reg at high engine load )
BTW,, i have seen stock walbros installed on a relay ( no two speed ) and work AOK
some not,, and required the reg
,, but some others ran the stock reg indefinately,,
some had creep issues months later
,, possibly due to a build up in the reg
it also seems the s4 reg can stroke a little more and handle the difference
my recommends is to use an external FPR
change the rail to a s4 secondary
,, and you can replace the dampners if you wish
( especially if the grub screw is already lost )
if you wish to read back 10 000 posts i was the original proponent of the parallel fuel rail setup
and was doing so for myself back in the mid 90\'s
( this is due to my process experience )
NB
there is another solution,,one i did myself for a few years
and that is to run parallel rails , WITH a reg on each rail
ie,, s4 t2 primary,, s5 t2 secondary rails
,,so two stock regs with the outlet returns teed together to the return fuel line
these will have enough combined stroke to control easily,, and not break the bank
I would have thought that running 2 FPR\'s in series would regulate to the pressure that\'s set lowest on whichever FPR - but I\'ve just realised why this won\'t work as I\'m typing it - lol.
The FPR will regulate the pressure behind it only, so the rails will be at whatever the stock FPR is, and the bit between the FPR\'s will be set by the external FPR before the return - so all that you\'d end up doing is getting the correct pressure on a bit of hose with no injectors on it - is that right ?
I must stop thinking electrically. :rollin
BTW - this is how my primary rail looks - with no pulsation damper:
http://www.mazdarotaryclub.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=46610&d=1269107323
and this is the secondary rail and FPR:
http://www.mazdarotaryclub.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=46485&d=1267998502
Not the neatest of jobs - but it works well. When I move the engine into my new shell, I\'ll be changing the fuel filter for one with AN fittings as well, and I\'ll also just use a straight down bit of hose onto an AN fitting on the return pipe rather than that weird loop - need to by a bigger / stronger swaging tool first :)
I\'m looking at droping one in my tank today, I know the bosch 044 needs a wireing/relay upgrade but does the walbro need the wiring to be upgraded and can it run the stock two speed setup or is it best to bridge the relay out.
And one last question on joining the wiring intank to the existing I was thinking of insulated thro conectors but stagering the joins to keep them apart or maby there is some way of removing the existing wires from the plug.
Cheers
Quote from: festa;780443I\'m looking at droping one in my tank today, I know the bosch 044 needs a wireing/relay upgrade but does the walbro need the wiring to be upgraded and can it run the stock two speed setup or is it best to bridge the relay out.
And one last question on joining the wiring intank to the existing I was thinking of insulated thro conectors but stagering the joins to keep them apart or maby there is some way of removing the existing wires from the plug.
Cheers
The walbro will work fine on the stock wiring and the resistor relay (2 speed) setup - if anything - it may be a bit too efficient with the relay in place - giving rise to more flow than the stock pump at idle and low load.
cheers Prof, I installed it and it worked fine just suspect about the the wiring in the fuel tank I used insulated conectors to join the wires so should be ok considering the stock pump has exposed terminals in the fuel
As long as the joints are solid - no chance of sparking, then exposed wiring isn\'t an issue - the petrol won\'t conduct electricity so you\'re fine there. Only thing to be careful of is the positive wire shorting out to the fuel pump assembly which is earthed. The plastic should be fine as long as the fuel doesn\'t attack it. :)