hey
Ive decided to go single turbo,just having a read up on things on how to acheive my 450bhp goal,would i need to port my engine?,would it help in anyway?would i need to do a rebuild if i wanted porting,what porting should i go for? any good/bad experinces,any help is aprecciated
John
Yes you would need to port to a streetport level.
Yes the engine has to come apart for porting so yes you have to rebuild it.
Looking at approx 3K to rebuild with porting, plus the single turbo kit and ECu\\fuelling and cooling mods so another 3K on top.
So 6K in total
Quote from: John RX7;713323hey
Ive decided to go single turbo,just having a read up on things on how to acheive my 450bhp goal,would i need to port my engine?,would it help in anyway?would i need to do a rebuild if i wanted porting,what porting should i go for? any good/bad experinces,any help is aprecciated
John
100% not needed ! for that power level or considerably higher.
Here is proof why >
Further to this post (stock V\'s street port)
Two RX7\'s both weight checked prior to running, both dyno\'s *varying methods* alone with vastly varying estimates of engine power! one matches reality (read other cars) the other is optimistic to say the least! Stripped track car (13B-REW street port) Garrett single turbo 1.3bar
1>
1180kg (432rwhp DD! owners dyno shop estimates 509bhp!!!!!!!)
100kmh-200kmh = 8.3 seconds Road car (13B-REW stock) Garrett single turbo 1.3bar
2>
1380kg (275rwkw "real power measure!" owner estimates honest 430bhp in this test)
100kmh-200kmh = 8.2 seconds (same number of gearshifts, same OEM gearbox, same shift points.........) *both at sea level and std temp and pressure day* You do the maths (http://www.rotarycarclub.com/rotary_forum/images/smilies/beatdeadhorse5.gif) power curve on one is far superior, but also some dyno figures are not worth the paper they are printed on (http://www.rotarycarclub.com/rotary_forum/images/smilies/rofl.gif)
I do all kinds of porting from street port to peripheral and across more than I care to remember over years can honestly tell you that porting is 100% not necessary on any kind of road going 13B-REW *regardless of turbo size 400bhp to 800bhp* (and some track cars!) infact its actually a big backwards step in terms of speed (not just a token power print out of the peak "blip")
does the stock ported one not spool up the tub later in the rev range? pretty important for a road car.
Also what were the rest of the two cars in question set ups like?did different people map them? Who drove them?
also has one lasted longer than the other?
this isn\'t an attack btw, genuinely interested
Hi Pete,
Good to see you on these boards :)
RR SP or go home lol.
Quote from: dthebuk;719016does the stock ported one not spool up the tub later in the rev range? pretty important for a road car.
Also what were the rest of the two cars in question set ups like?did different people map them? Who drove them?
also has one lasted longer than the other?
this isn\'t an attack btw, genuinely interested
The FD\'s are mine (RICESP) *general details of my car and some specs etc* http://www.aquamist.co.uk/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=1590 and the other is here > http://www.rx7club.com/showthread.php?t=631485&page=5 (both meet std\'s for tuning, build, evidence of performance *video proof and VBOX3i*).
Generally speaking its a little known fact that stock standard porting is by far and away the most responsive and able to spool up a BIG turbocharger, especially v\'s "street ported" engines. And even bridge ported engines as well........
For durability I have a hand full of customers who still after 8 years (I know time is meaningless) or around 50,000km still run the same stock standard engine (across S5 to 13B-REW) at genuine 500bhp power level (around 440rwhp dynodynamics). Life span is great, power band is unmatched and most importantly the tollerance to running in street trim is high. Hope this is of some help to people who are interested?
I love my street ports, I do more of these than anything else, but there is very big negatives to running them as an overal concept in a road or track car. I personally in my own ride swapped from 3 different iterations of intake and exhaust porting to find the best balance on a T04Z matched to Mazda gearbox and the best I have foud is the stock standard porting. Though I do love the peak figures you can get from street ports (all other variables being held constant) its hard to beat a stock port (S5 to 13B-REW) motor in reality. Can provide as many samples across all kinds of fields but I dont want to bore you or come across as a know it all :WaveBye
Between 4k to 8k rpm stock port is a great set up *pick whatever power level you want to have* street car, circuit car, or 140+mph 9 second drag car.
Quote from: JBerg;719017Hi Pete,
Good to see you on these boards :)
RR SP or go home lol.
Thanks :wave
Here is more direct link showing power bands of my own testing http://www.aquamist.co.uk/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=1590&page=8
Full road set up with quiet exhaust and full catalyst, you can run this car and breath the air out the tail pipe :InLove T04Z 1.00A/R set up as in pic\'s.
I put alot of focus into genuine honest power and bredth of it that is available. many cars (competition gutted RX7\'s with full bridge ports and reputed 400rwkw *dynodynamics* engines) can only just match the terminal speed at the end of a main straight where you can reach ~235kmh, make of that what you will............... (VBOX proof of both).
I am doing some small upgrades to the turbocharger this week and will share up a graph of power and performance over a typical 400m test run on 1.5bar or around 22psi again in full proper street trim. Not everyone cup of tea but interesting to some I suppose :mmmm
You can get a good combination by porting the secondary inlets only and the exhaust ports too.
what porting does is enable the same amount of airflow with lower boost,but effectively the CFM is the same with lower temps due to the lower boost pressure.
Duration is kep to good porting in these circumstances.
Basically it comes down to 2 things to acheive a similar result,more boost on stock ports or less boost on a ported engine with both running the same volume of air to make same power.
Regards
Carl
Hello Carl :Ladys-man
Yes the arguments are many and varied :3gears-lh
I have found over the years (as you have and many others in this game) that indeed the power (at peak) goes up, how much and what you loose along the way is the important bit.
:2Confused You (all of us) need to look at good power curves 3rd gear acceleration is a good started and see how the power is mapped in a transient environment like real acceleration to get the full picture (it gets inflated in lower gears or on/off throttle situations, and has less effect in top gear *slower rpm change rate*).
This is the secret to all of this talk about porting.
For a flat boost curve I am yet to see any ports that make better spread of power than stock std (S5 to 13B-REW) port timing, sure the others will deliver higher power due to the simple fact of ~500rpm higher peak speed of the engine, but they loose out everywhere else, and they do not spool as good at stock, they are more effected by post turbine pressure, and or running turbo\'s with higher expansion ratio\'s as well........ the list of negatives is long and diverse.
Weighed against that is that you only need to *worst case* run ~3 psi more boost (at around 20psi level) to match the peak power of the ported engine, BUT you have a literal mountain more at any rev\'s below the peak and this is the secret to why std ported engines are so quick when tuned properly and set up well.
I will post up a classic std port power curve to illustrate my point (puts 20B\'s to shame!)
After 60,000km the water seal started to weep & The owner wanted the same power on lower boost, hence i street ported it. Is it necessary? (me answering as an engine builder and tuner) *100% not necessary at all*
320rwkw @ 17.5psi (RR street porting)
V\'s
320rwkw @ ~21psi (for a stock engine)
(http://feat.putfile.com/profilepics/main/6/ziffer-7482023716.jpg)http://www.ausrotary.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=69871 (did actually run 325rwkw) 3 consecutive club dyno days, see detail in this above thread.
http://www.ausrotary.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=42769&start=180 user name pp13b *he lives in UK now hi Tom !
Video of car with stock motor > http://www.riceracing.com.au/Videos/440_bHp_Series_2_water-injection.wmv
(http://photos14.flickr.com/17707158_905f3f87b9.jpg)
(http://members.optusnet.com.au/%7Eseddons/320.jpg)
(http://feat.putfile.com/profilepics/main/6/ziffer-7482023716.jpg)
Probably the best advice to give is what I ended up doing. I\'ve run a single for a couple of years and now the engine has died I\'m having it ported at the same time as the refresh (cracked an apex seal and had a slight water leak). Not looking for anything too silly, just want it to pick it feet up on boost earlier (used for track days) coming out of corners.
The cost of porting the engine isn\'t too crazy then because it is done whilst the engine needs to be in bits.
Shaun
After reading this post and researching along side..I tend to agree with Rice Racing however, there are very convincing arguments on both sides.
Regards
so ive wasted my money and time? i wanted a faster car on the track and have gone for a medium port. will i not be as good out of the corners? I was under the impression my peak power will be lower down the revs and my peak power will be 50hp more than on stock ports. i have a small hotside to hopefully get on full boost quickly. hmmmmm. i did like stock ports on my to4r .81
Quote from: RICE RACING;719010100% not needed ! for that power level or considerably higher.
Here is proof why >
Further to this post (stock V\'s street port)
Two RX7\'s both weight checked prior to running, both dyno\'s *varying methods* alone with vastly varying estimates of engine power! one matches reality (read other cars) the other is optimistic to say the least!
Stripped track car (13B-REW street port) Garrett single turbo 1.3bar
1> 1180kg (432rwhp DD! owners dyno shop estimates 509bhp!!!!!!!)
100kmh-200kmh = 8.3 seconds
Road car (13B-REW stock) Garrett single turbo 1.3bar
2> 1380kg (275rwkw "real power measure!" owner estimates honest 430bhp in this test)
100kmh-200kmh = 8.2 seconds
(same number of gearshifts, same OEM gearbox, same shift points.........) *both at sea level and std temp and pressure day* You do the maths (http://www.rotarycarclub.com/rotary_forum/images/smilies/beatdeadhorse5.gif) power curve on one is far superior, but also some dyno figures are not worth the paper they are printed on (http://www.rotarycarclub.com/rotary_forum/images/smilies/rofl.gif)
I do all kinds of porting from street port to peripheral and across more than I care to remember over years can honestly tell you that porting is 100% not necessary on any kind of road going 13B-REW *regardless of turbo size 400bhp to 800bhp* (and some track cars!) infact its actually a big backwards step in terms of speed (not just a token power print out of the peak "blip")
RICESP 100kmh - 200kmh even faster now on stock ports :)
7.53 seconds. :Thumbsup! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqvaMTJZn8k&feature=player_embedded So is porting necessary? I think not :spank
Quote from: DR SCHNITZEL;719445so ive wasted my money and time? i wanted a faster car on the track and have gone for a medium port. will i not be as good out of the corners? I was under the impression my peak power will be lower down the revs and my peak power will be 50hp more than on stock ports. i have a small hotside to hopefully get on full boost quickly. hmmmmm. i did like stock ports on my to4r .81
I\'ll *time permiting* post up why its a negative thing to port a road car.
When you analyse my own power curve to make the most of the power band (remember stock ports) you need to rev the car to 8400rpm to 8500rpm, and in lower gears like 1st and 2nd as high as 8800rpm! You can\'t check this by looking at a dyno sheet and making a guess, if you run it through a computer program that analysis your power an tq curve properly you will see that this is how high you need to rev to get minimum times and maximum average acceleration on the std mazda gearbox!
I have had "arguments" with people who race Mazda\'s professionally over this :2Confused regardless to say they dont make cars as powerful or perform over a measured time increment anything near RICESP, but they have mega opinions on what is best back up by nothing more than hot wind, no proper power curves to engine rpm, no proper measurement, no analysis, nothing.
When you check all this properly you see even more why it is totally pointless to port a standard 13B-REW. The only time you could ever use it is if you have a close ratio gearbox and something fitted with dog rings rather than syncronizers to greatly reduce shift time loss, and preferably a 6 speed to make up for the loss of range of bringing the ratio\'s closer together.
It is best to keep the engine drivable, to let it have a wider range of power, much more mid range power and use the turbo to increase this mid range........ porting and lower boost is not the way to do this at all. As I have proved above. :driving
:Hammer
Quote from: Mir;719435After reading this post and researching along side..I tend to agree with Rice Racing however, there are very convincing arguments on both sides.
Regards
People can "argue" and post all they want (not saying you are) but at the end of the day all that matters is facts and legitimate results (that can be easily compared).
Weigh the carMeasure the powerShow us how fast it accelerates from 100kmh to 200kmh ^ You will see which car has the best power band and power to reach that basic speed in a respectable time. Anyone can do it, and discounting people who dont have proper insturments or want to cheat themselves you will see what is best in the real world V\'s dyno sheet/claim world. Best thing is you can compare it to so many other cars as well and see how you stack up, with no excuses for poor traction, bad shifting (like in drug racing), and it eliminates *optimistic dyno sheets* especially when you are looking at similar vehicles. The bull.... stops when the clock starts. :eek:
GREAT RiceRacing :D
I read what you write in the forum and I saw your website :) I thought I also use in the future the single turbo kit whit T04Z on stock porting, but I did not have a valid reference to make sure, for clear my mind :) Now, after reading this forum, I made my decision.
I will follow your advice and I hope that I will need help I\'ll ask you something :mmmm In particular for manage the ECU. I don\'t trust Of italians for this hehehe :2Confused
Quote from: StreetracerHCI;735574GREAT RiceRacing :D
I read what you write in the forum and I saw your website :) I thought I also use in the future the single turbo kit whit T04Z on stock porting, but I did not have a valid reference to make sure, for clear my mind :) Now, after reading this forum, I made my decision.
I will follow your advice and I hope that I will need help I\'ll ask you something :mmmm In particular for manage the ECU. I don\'t trust Of italians for this hehehe :2Confused
Thank you.
^ I did this exactly for this reason, cause it applies to so many people around the world who want the fastest true street rotary powered cars :3gears-lh
No exotic or special secret sauce parts, just using the normal standard engine, and a bit of brain power, and most importantly proper petrol/gasoline as can be bought by anyone/anywhere in the world :King it is about making the hidden performance of the stock parts available and un locking it so anyone can achieve the same. :Thumbs-up
The
stock standard 13B-REW is an amazing engine ;) Ferrari F40 beater :burnout
(http://www.riceracing.com.au/Photos/RICESP/RiceSP28.jpg)
(http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/6884/img2153matt.jpg)
:D
When I decided to buy a supercar, I chose the fd why the rotary engine is fantastic.
Imho, the FD is The better CAR in the world hehehe :)
Thanks for your great job :)
In the future you can map my car? I send you all spec modification, We can try? What do you think?
Quote from: StreetracerHCI;735700In the future you can map my car? I send you all spec modification, We can try? What do you think?
I do this for quite a few people on various platforms.
If you want the same set up as in my car its pretty easy as its based around a std engine so there is far less variables associated and unlike most others every parameter is set and recorded so all you need to do is follow the basic set up requirements. As close as you will get to a turn key package :King
I can supply you all of the parts (list them or ship to you!) you need 100% exactly the same and the most important part the mapping (which you do not need to guess or trust someone else with!) to achieve the same result.. and it\'s proven performance.
You can E-Mail me if you are interested to know more. peter@riceracing.com.au
Hi Pete,
I have started a new thread about the blowing ups of rotary engines..plz do insert your comments on that thread as seemingly you are knowledgeable and your advice will be very much appreciated...
Regards
Syed
Quote from: RICE RACING;735703I do this for quite a few people on various platforms.
If you want the same set up as in my car its pretty easy as its based around a std engine so there is far less variables associated and unlike most others every parameter is set and recorded so all you need to do is follow the basic set up requirements. As close as you will get to a turn key package :King
I can supply you all of the parts (list them or ship to you!) you need 100% exactly the same and the most important part the mapping (which you do not need to guess or trust someone else with!) to achieve the same result.. and it\'s proven performance.
You can E-Mail me if you are interested to know more. peter@riceracing.com.au
Thanks :D
Will I need time to get all the money needed, but now i have need only a good intercooler, new turbo kit and ignition fuel upgrade to 850/1600 injection :)
My target is 430/450 bhp
Certainly will contact you when I need your help :D
Quote from: StreetracerHCI;735716Thanks :D
Will I need time to get all the money needed, but now i have need only a good intercooler, new turbo kit and ignition fuel upgrade to 850/1600 injection :)
My target is 430/450 bhp
Certainly will contact you when I need your help :D
That is way too much fuel injector for that power level,
if you are doing a set up that is very different (as yours is) then all anyone can provide you with is guidance as to how to set certain parameters (spark timing, fuel mixture setting for load etc).The only way you can get a turn key package is to use all the same parts, and even then you need to do small trims to suit the differences that happen from car to car, but it is very very close to perfect.To make a system fully perfect (starting, warm up, full power, economy, safety features etc) takes much research and time, I probably have a years worth of work on and off in my mapping and system integration to make is perfect, it\'s hard to correlate it to a monetary figure as there is so many hours involved in integrating all of the systems and calibrating it and testing it (in all conditions) not to mention proving it~! to a high level. As a one off not many people could afford it. *There is more work in the mapping of the engine that all the other parts of the car combined many times over*
Quote from: RICE RACING;719177user name pp13b *he lives in UK now hi Tom !
Hi Pete, only just found this. Can\'t believe my old car is still being talked about!
So I don\'t need porting on my 20B now? I think I still want it just for the sound.
Quote from: tom20B;735719Hi Pete, only just found this. Can\'t believe my old car is still being talked about!
So I don\'t need porting on my 20B now? I think I still want it just for the sound.
Hey Mate :)
It may have been parted out and molested but it\'s legacy, your faith, and my ability will live on forever ;)
F7cken 20B! mate, you would be on crack to port it, I make so much power on my RICESP I could not even begin to think how in the hell you would use the power of a 20B, I guess you can just run it at a lot less than its full power potential?
You could port it if you want to go slower yes. Remember..........Peak power sells cars, highest average power wins races :rollin
Quote from: RICE RACING;735722Hey Mate :)
It may have been parted out and molested but it\'s legacy, your faith, and my ability will live on forever ;)
F7cken 20B! mate, you would be on crack to port it, I make so much power on my RICESP I could not even begin to think how in the hell you would use the power of a 20B, I guess you can just run it at a lot less than its full power potential?
You could port it if you want to go slower yes. Remember..........Peak power sells cars, highest average power wins races :rollin
Yeah the idea is to make lazy power. Lots of torque etc. I\'m not into breaking records now, just want to enjoy a very fast car in a country where the police don\'t care about engineer\'s certificates or noise :D
Think it may have been ported already. Carl can tell us :wave
Good to hear from you Pete. Will check out the latest on your car.
Quote from: tom20B;735727Yeah the idea is to make lazy power. Lots of torque etc. I\'m not into breaking records now, just want to enjoy a very fast car in a country where the police don\'t care about engineer\'s certificates or noise :D
Think it may have been ported already. Carl can tell us :wave
Good to hear from you Pete. Will check out the latest on your car.
I hear you there Tom, when you have been there and done that you don\'t need to prove anything.
I have a similar thing with my RX7, I just wanted an all round nice real car, jump in lay the smack down on people with dyno queens, enjoy driving up to 1000km on a single tank of fuel! and having more power than the mighty SP can handle :2Confused You realize the folly of it all when the race Logic traction control is going spastic up to 3rd gear and the only time you can use full power is 4th gear and beyond, by which time you are hammering Ferrari F40\'s anyway.
All of this comes from experience, and years of doing cars, yours was but one on the way :god
Keep in touch :wave
good thread. by the sounds of things i\'ve messed up a mediocre fc with extended street ports and 1680cc secondaries. on a plus note.. sounds pretty good lol
Pete,
What are your thoughts on just porting the exhaust ports a little and leaving the intake ports alone?
Any benefits or downsides?
I have decided i dont like the power band of my large street port.
I think im going to have one set of my standard plates port polished to a mirror finish and have just the closing edge of the secondary ports opened up 1mm and leave the exhaust housings opened/ported as they are and see how it goes back on the ,81 hotside. (thoughts on this?) I think this will be better on the street and out of the corners on the track.
im at Anglesey race track with my mid ported engine in 4 weeks. If the track is dry ill be able to have a proper comparison of ported to non ported on the same turbo and make my mind up on the way forward.
I think id also like some EGT data on my car/tune so i might buy the kit to monitor this.
Quote from: DR SCHNITZEL;735783I have decided i dont like the power band of my large street port.
I think im going to have one set of my standard plates port polished to a mirror finish and have just the closing edge of the secondary ports opened up 1mm and leave the exhaust housings opened/ported as they are and see how it goes back on the ,81 hotside. (thoughts on this?) I think this will be better on the street and out of the corners on the track.
im at Anglesey race track with my mid ported engine in 4 weeks. If the track is dry ill be able to have a proper comparison of ported to non ported on the same turbo and make my mind up on the way forward.
I think id also like some EGT data on my car/tune so i might buy the kit to monitor this.
Yep see how you go, make sure you remap the engine, as the std or near std ports will need far less fuel after 6500rpm there are also timing changes you can make to keep the power band high like I have in my car (making peak power at 7400rpm and allowing the engine to rev to 8500rpm) for maximum flat power band) which is what will net you the acceleration increases and power curves like the one I posted.
The big benefit of the std porting in the chamber filling at mid range rpm\'s the maximum torque you can make at 4500rpm, earlier turbo spooling. Ironically the smaller/std ports allow you to use a much larger turbine housing! and you gain even more power as a result *but I don\'t want to give away all my secrets* :Hammer Suffice to say you don\'t need a small turbine like most preach to pick up the response and power, cause you have no problems with chamber filling due to molested port timing that only provides benefits over the narrowest and highest rpm range.
Std porting free\'s you up of many rotary engine constrictions like back pressure sensitivity and turbine size? how? just do a compression test on your engine to see how, any ported versions register far lower compression than the stock std one, cause they are inefficient at chamber filling and only work over a narrow rpm range which totally does not suit sports driving or most track situations.
All I can do is but share my experience, and if others find it interesting and of use then good. When you can make high power and have broadest power range and still top 200+mph in a stock geared FD, and have it quiet and efficient you gotta question why you even need to port the engine block at all. I first found this out many years before I met Tom (pp13B\'s car) when doing a budget rebuild on a mates car at 3am! we just assembled the stock block back with a spare rotor housing and new Mazda seals, and the car was sold to another customer and fully develped with a new turbo, water injection, CDI\'s etc etc and it had the best power band of any car around, stupidly fast very high power (300+rwkw) went for almost 10 years *the car was actually stollen!!! so it could still be running for all we know lol :god Even the bloke who owned it (he was a rotary engine builder himself) said to me I want you to build me next engine!@ and I told him it was totally stock std, just a fresh rebuild, even two different tuners who redid other ECU instals in it over the years commented on how instant the power is and it was the best rotary turbo they had driven .................. the secret was to not molest the port timing :rollin
I remembered all of these early experiences and decided to test it analytically myself in my own car, and I can now see why porting on the 13B-REW is totally 100% not necessary. I was concerned that top end power would not be acceptable, but as the say proof is better than talk and I proved that is not an issue at all. For a road car I would never suggest porting again even though I make great money off it as a service. Try it for yourself, if you are objective about it you will come to the same conclusion as most others who have gone from one extreme to the other on this topic.
Add further to this *at extreme end* :guinness
In my world you hear of people saying "oh well but the ports are are a restriction! to high power!"
I have people who have run 8\'s at over 170mph in drag cars on 100% std 13B-REW motors out of a Mazda carton box. And only been limited by their fear to push harder. So no restriction there :WaveBye
I can list many examples of people running unbelievable times and terminal speeds (in drug world) on 100% stock std 13B-REW engines, using in some cases turbo\'s that are bigger than a wind power generator! stuff that would make you question why anyone would ever get out a die grinder. And not one hit wonders either, engines that have done duty in road cars or been bought from parts wreckers and installed and run for years! others who have found this out by simple mistake after the million dollar race engine sh7t itself and either obtained a Mazda reman block or put in a slapper stock version with no porting no meda dollar doweling no molested compression ratio bullsh7t and done as good as they ever had before. Some of those same people just refuse to waste money on bridge porting or stud kit machining cause they worked out its a basic con job of the highest order, totally not necessary for what they are doing, and remember we are talking very fast here, not internet racers.
I have friends all over the world and one the other month got a engine refresh job on a car the was imported the (8 second drag car) from a well know rip off joint! he could not believe what he saw when he pulled it apart! 100% stock std engine, Mazda 2mm seals, ports 100% stock (minus the die grinder runs across the end plates where they tried to debur some edges LOL!!!) exahsut ports not touched at all. Sold to the importer as a "mega dollar race engine" :rollin it ran in that country for a long time at the same performacne level and they thought it a good idea to rebuild the engine for a new race year.
Seen it, done it, experienced it. ;)
Quote from: antnicuk;735758Pete,
What are your thoughts on just porting the exhaust ports a little and leaving the intake ports alone?
Any benefits or downsides?
some very valid points made but what about just the exhaust ports though?
interesting thread
Quote from: antnicuk;735847some very valid points made but what about just the exhaust ports though?
I\'ve made em as big as
Jordan\'s anal passage and everything in between, it probably is the worst thing you can do to them is lower the opening edge, best way to make the rotary even more inefficient (wasted energy in the power stroke and kills turbine egt\'s).
I\'ll try to scan some pics of all the different styles trialed over time, even Peter Andre would be impressed with the molested passages :Ladys-man
It\'s much better time spent on leaving the engine alone and concentrating on the turbocharger and other system parts and working them to allow you to "man up" and use proper levels of boost, thsi will derive far higher gains in power than any molestation with a die grinder :rollin and you will have much more mid range power.
Life begins at ~1.5 bar or 20+psi, want more power? run more boost :Hammer
One of my favorite cars of all time is here > http://www.fastestcosworth.com/
206+mph on a GT40 turbo @ 36psi (~700bhp) and tough as f7ck! quiet, drivable, smooth idle, a rotary owner could learn a thing or two from these people. The latest donk ~840bhp 2.15lt, 7500rpm 41psi on GT42RS and boost alone, great power band too!.... totally amazing car.
Quote from: RICE RACING;735881It\'s much better time spent on leaving the engine alone and concentrating on the turbocharger and other system parts and working them to allow you to "man up" and use proper levels of boost, thsi will derive far higher gains in power than any molestation with a die grinder :rollin and you will have much more mid range power.
Life begins at ~1.5 bar or 20+psi, want more power? run more boost :Hammer
One of my favorite cars of all time is here > http://www.fastestcosworth.com/
206+mph on a GT40 turbo @ 36psi (~700bhp) and tough as f7ck! quiet, drivable, smooth idle, a rotary owner could learn a thing or two from these people. The latest donk ~840bhp 2.15lt, 7500rpm 41psi on GT42RS and boost alone, great power band too!.... totally amazing car.
Hi Peter, i have just read the wi articles on your website, really interesting stuff and shows a thing or two about paying attention to history. There are a few things i didnt understand with the numbers used for afr and water/fuel ratios but with more researching im sure i will.
Have you experienced anything with the water saturation into the engine oil when using too much water?
i am really looking forward to getting into the mapping on my brother FD, hopefully i will get him to keep the standard ports (after telling him about all different ports and the power acheiveable) and run a single turbo with wi and boost the hell out of it!
I think that people choose to port engines due to the fact that the information they gather doesnt explain the total some of the moification to an engine that is required to gain the most out of porting.
porting an engine moves the power band further up therev range, so to better gain the HP from the higher power band would mean revving the engine higher and higher?
When i first learnt about porting i thought that my engine would be able to rev up to and beyond 9,000 RPM. this is not the case. to get these kind of RPMs further modification to things as the rotors amongst other things must be done?
I dont know a huge amount but this is my understanding of porting on a rotary, anyones input into where i am going wrong would be good.
Rice great info i am just confused about one thing. Am i reading right that an engine builder asked you to build another stock block for him and it took you to build him a stock block for him to realise that was the way to go? or do you mean he wanted you to do your magic with turbo and WI/tuning again?
Will having my exhaust port opening 2mm lower really make much of a difference to power? how much 5% 1% 2%. Will it just make power and tourque before 6500 rpm plus worse?
what about a stock block but just with lightened rotors and what do you think of the huge single butterfly throttle body? surely there is something more optimum than the stock block with stock ports for overall great trackability driveablity?
i dont understand what you are saying about running the larger turbine housing on stock ports. If i go back to standard ports surely i should go back down from the 1.30 hotside to the .81 or i will lose alot of mid range/spool? i do understand the egts will be a fair bit higher. I currently am not running AI as im not running more than 1.1 bar.
Quote from: DR SCHNITZEL;735959Rice great info i am just confused about one thing. Am i reading right that an engine builder asked you to build another stock block for him and it took you to build him a stock block for him to realise that was the way to go? or do you mean he wanted you to do your magic with turbo and WI/tuning again?
Will having my exhaust port opening 2mm lower really make much of a difference to power? how much 5% 1% 2%. Will it just make power and tourque before 6500 rpm plus worse?
what about a stock block but just with lightened rotors and what do you think of the huge single butterfly throttle body? surely there is something more optimum than the stock block with stock ports for overall great trackability driveablity?
i dont understand what you are saying about running the larger turbine housing on stock ports. If i go back to standard ports surely i should go back down from the 1.30 hotside to the .81 or i will lose alot of mid range/spool? i do understand the egts will be a fair bit higher. I currently am not running AI as im not running more than 1.1 bar.
You will have *allot more* mid range spool and power on a stock ported engine V\'s any level of street porting, and thus you can run a larger turbo and pick up mechanical efficiency due to less pumping losses on the exhaust stroke.
I have experimented with single butter fly they do nothing of benefit but they do make it a nightmare and very rough due to low air speed at low rpm, the slightly staged factory set up is designed the way it is for a reason and its the best, it poses no meaningful restriction to the engine.
Any porting you do down increases the EGT as its allowing un utilized mixture out the the engine and into the turbine, its wasted energy, you loose mid range torque when you do this. leave the lower edge of the exhaust ports alone, and only clean it up if you must, take off a minimal amount. You will see on my site under the engine page an article from 1997 of the old AN&L Rx7 where there are detailed pics of exhaust ports there and others talking about it.
With the story it took my engine builder friend to actually own his own car *engine built by me* to realize just how good a stock port is *no porting necessary* hell it even took me till now instrumenting all my own car to see just how good a stock port is. I have a great example comparing another very fast car to mine (look up DOCMAR RX7 on youtube) its a GT47 street ported cosmo block FD RX7, running open waste gate, massive exhaust, 1.7 bar boost! (564PS @ 7430rpm and 54kg/cm torque at 5960rpm) and they VBOX tested it (you can find the car review in Greek and translate it) 60-200kmh is 9.09 seconds (mine is 10.08 seconds) terminal speed\'s are within 2mph of each other over 400m. And I only run 1.45bar boost (~485bhp), a full catalytic exhaust, plumb back legal waste gate. I\'ll put up a video of mine on 1.7bar and VBOX when I get a chance to do an offical test again to show that its easily matched and in a much nicer road car package.
fair plays mr riceracing.. you`ve really put the cat with the pigeons with all this non porting stuff. im very intregued..
thumbs up
Quote from: Grant Monkhouse;735927Hi Peter, i have just read the wi articles on your website, really interesting stuff and shows a thing or two about paying attention to history. There are a few things i didnt understand with the numbers used for afr and water/fuel ratios but with more researching im sure i will.
Have you experienced anything with the water saturation into the engine oil when using too much water?
i am really looking forward to getting into the mapping on my brother FD, hopefully i will get him to keep the standard ports (after telling him about all different ports and the power acheiveable) and run a single turbo with wi and boost the hell out of it!
FAR is simple to convert to AFR (something most relate too)
1/FAR
So
1/.1 (FAR) = 10.0:1 AFR :)
Water to fuel ratio\'s
0.2 = 20% water (v\'s fuel qty) we commonly use 20% to 60% by mass ratio\'s remember this is by mass NOT VOLUME!
Too much water simply can cause mis fire or low power for the given varibles you are running at. With my VBOX3i and self developed power measuring capacity I have the ability to fine tune and measure power each and everytime I drive the car in all gears and at all speeds on road, its been a big part in me being able to see what works in reality v\'s in an artifical dyno room. It\'s critical to be able to measure this sort of thing to get the balance right when developing WI and how much to use etc... especially when trying to make maximum power from what is esentially a stock std engine or parts and emissions legal set up too :)
Pete
lets suppose, If someone buys your Water Injection Kit, who is going to install it for us here in the UK?, as I have heard that "No one is competent enough to install your Water Injection Kit on the Rotary Engine"
Any suggestion
Syed
Quote from: Mir;736041Pete
lets suppose, If someone buys your Water Injection Kit, who is going to install it for us here in the UK?, as I have heard that "No one is competent enough to install your Water Injection Kit on the Rotary Engine"
Any suggestion
Syed
Dragon could do it easily. I am sure Howard could also.
Anyone mechanically minded with some access to basic fabrication could do that same as well.
So far as the tuning aspect or set up that is a non issue as all the knoweldge comes from me, you just follow the recipie, it\'s very straight forward from that aspect of things.
Any WI set up will work, I have a friend in Norway (Frode) who used a WI kit bought of E-Bay along with my set up advise givien over E-Mail and he managed 585bhp on his bosses engine dyno at VS Mottor. So long as you are in this trade and have some basic skills then its pretty easy really irrespective of what WI system you use. The tuning part is access to the knowledge (which you get when you buy my system) others you have to find it out for yourself or go to tuners who are proficient in it and have examples of cars runnning with it.
Local ones near you that come to mind are Wifbitz and Dragon using Aquamist based systems.
Quote from: RICE RACING;736058Dragon could do it easily. I am sure Howard could also.
Anyone mechanically minded with some access to basic fabrication could do that same as well.
So far as the tuning aspect or set up that is a non issue as all the knoweldge comes from me, you just follow the recipie, it\'s very straight forward from that aspect of things.
Any WI set up will work, I have a friend in Norway (Frode) who used a WI kit bought of E-Bay along with my set up advise givien over E-Mail and he managed 585bhp on his bosses engine dyno at VS Mottor. So long as you are in this trade and have some basic skills then its pretty easy really irrespective of what WI system you use. The tuning part is access to the knowledge (which you get when you buy my system) others you have to find it out for yourself or go to tuners who are proficient in it and have examples of cars runnning with it.
Local ones near you that come to mind are Wifbitz and Dragon using Aquamist based systems.
hi Pete,
Can u email me on gillanis@hotmail.com
need to know da price of the kit u sell ..
Regards
Syed
Quote from: skybusr34;736033fair plays mr riceracing.. you`ve really put the cat with the pigeons with all this non porting stuff. im very intregued..
thumbs up
No problems, seem like a nice open bunch of people here so I\'m happy to provide evidence and proof (both historical and current of things I have personal knowledge of).......... for people who have not much other avenue to either test themselves or otherwise obtain the information to questions they. may have always wondered about :Thumbs-up
It does take a
long time and a
big investment to test all this stuff many times over like I have, it is a continual learning process which I enjoy hence why sticking with rotaries since 1992! *hard work aside :2Confused*
I am probably more fascinated with the topic of mapping now a days and can finally relate to quotes by people like Cosworth engineer Geoff Godard who said "focusing on the mapping & ECU development" was of far more importance (& yielded all the BIG gains) than any development of the physical engine (F1 V6 1000bhp turbo motor days) and those are very wise words and pertinent to us today. There is much more in terms of tuning and what you feed the engine and the unlocking of power than there is anything to do with the mechanical specification of the engine its self and this is true regardless if you are looking at our humble 13B-REW or the pinnacle of the highest power turbo cars ever raced :Hammer There are many such quotes from other notable people of that era (BMW engineers) Paul Roche who said the whole fate of there 1400bhp BMW basically rested on the minor moddification of the fuel injection system calibration! in its early days. Gordon Murray (Brabham designer in 1983) wanting to abandon the project all together!
I have always looked to F1 and other highly respected fields of engineering to solve my own little problems with turbo rotaries and in particular to make real petrol powered true road cars. You can learn allot from history, you just need to know where to look :King
Here is some examples
http://www.riceracing.com.au/13B-REW-engines.htm
Power and tq curves from street ported engines. And pictures. Using mid frame and large frame turbo\'s from 18psi to 24psi on normal petrol and water injection....
(http://www.riceracing.com.au/jase%20rotorpsi1.jpg)
(http://www.riceracing.com.au/donsick.....jpg)
(http://www.riceracing.com.au/proof3a.jpg)
(http://www.riceracing.com.au/Hoon%20build%206.JPG)
(http://img240.imageshack.us/img240/8396/hoon11ax0.jpg)
(http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/5426/hoon17bj7.jpg)
I love this thread.
Me too, someone should make it a sticky. For future reference for newcomers.
riceracing.. whats your opinion on this turbo.. sizes etc. what do you think it would spool like blah bla.. cheers http://www.compressorracing.com/our-turbos.html
I see you have posted a pic of a street ported engine block being built to show everyone what they dont have to waste thier money doing. Why have you done this?
Quote from: DR SCHNITZEL;736764I see you have posted a pic of a street ported engine block being built to show everyone what they dont have to waste thier money doing. Why have you done this?
So people have a concept of what a street port is and also a modified exhaust port as well relative to a stock part.
People can spend money on what ever they want to, I have shown what can be done on both and how one can match the other with outright power but with better mid range with only marginally higher boost pressure at the end of the day.
Quote from: skybusr34;736639riceracing.. whats your opinion on this turbo.. sizes etc. what do you think it would spool like blah bla.. cheers http://www.compressorracing.com/our-turbos.html
thoughts dude??:)
Rice Racing-have you done any similar R+D on Series 4 and 5 13BT engines?
Quote from: captainbizzaro;736880Rice Racing-have you done any similar R+D on Series 4 and 5 13BT engines?
YES :)
If you look around on my web page, the Yellow RX7 (82 model) has a S5 13BT street ported, and Tom\'s car by comparison was a stock port (440rwhp video on my page under WI) and also dyno sheet listed/posted here. The other reference car for my engine builder friend was a S4 block and S4 intake manifold set up ....... So exact same things apply.
Tom\'s RX7 actually used my old turbo off my own Yellow RX7!, same CDI system, same WI set up, same tuning, same 3" exhaust, same exhaust manifold :):) so it was a fair comparison. I did 351rear hub kw on a dynapack with it in my car, and 325rwkw at the tires with it in his car, and this difference is less than what these two dyno types give anyway.
S4, S5, S6, S8 13BT engines its all the same at the end of the day really, well from my tests anyway :2Confused:2Confused
Quote from: skybusr34;736878thoughts dude??:)
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Compressor-Racing-CompR-RS50Z-turbo-700bhp-T04Z-Holset-/260720685146?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item3cb429f05a
:Ladys-man it\'s very cheap! what I like most is the V\'band turbine housing (much easier to install in car) turbine housing bolted to exhaust manifold then insert the center cartridge as its a total c7nt to do this up in an RX7 with a HKS tubular header with motor in the car.
The compressor wheel is a bit smaller than a T04Z which is a shame.
I like the larger turbine wheel
It looks like a 1.00A/R turbine housing? hard to tell.
So what is the bearing system? Holset? do you know much about the company making this????
have no idea mate. thats come up on another forum. so how would this perform do you think.. on standard ports again..:3gears-lh
Quote from: RICE RACING;736885http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Compressor-Racing-CompR-RS50Z-turbo-700bhp-T04Z-Holset-/260720685146?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item3cb429f05a
:Ladys-man it\'s very cheap! what I like most is the V\'band turbine housing (much easier to install in car) turbine housing bolted to exhaust manifold then insert the center cartridge as its a total c7nt to do this up in an RX7 with a HKS tubular header with motor in the car.
The compressor wheel is a bit smaller than a T04Z which is a shame.
I like the larger turbine wheel
It looks like a 1.00A/R turbine housing? hard to tell.
So what is the bearing system? Holset? do you know much about the company making this????
Quote from: RICE RACING;736883YES :)
If you look around on my web page, the Yellow RX7 (82 model) has a S5 13BT street ported, and Tom\'s car by comparison was a stock port (440rwhp video on my page under WI) and also dyno sheet listed/posted here. The other reference car for my engine builder friend was a S4 block and S4 intake manifold set up ....... So exact same things apply.
Tom\'s RX7 actually used my old turbo off my own Yellow RX7!, same CDI system, same WI set up, same tuning, same 3" exhaust, same exhaust manifold :):) so it was a fair comparison. I did 351rear hub kw on a dynapack with it in my car, and 325rwkw at the tires with it in his car, and this difference is less than what these two dyno types give anyway.
S4, S5, S6, S8 13BT engines its all the same at the end of the day really, well from my tests anyway :2Confused:2Confused
Ok great thanks, I\'ll get a look.:Thumbs-up
Quote from: skybusr34;736886have no idea mate. thats come up on another forum. so how would this perform do you think.. on standard ports again..:3gears-lh
I really like it, just sent them an E-Mail about supplying some extra parts and confirmation of dimensions/specifications etc. Will be great for people like me who could fit this with minimal mods.
I do not like the Garrett bearing system and find them unreliable at 120,000rpm with extended use, the cartridges always increase in play axially and radially, and the biggest thing about them is the c7nts smoke badly needing excessive oil restriction on supply side on rotaries, which only adds to the problems of wear. I\'d like to try a Holset but in T04Z housings... so this is ideal.
I\'ll let you know what they come back with.
ok. nice one cheers
You know I like that turbo :)