what do you need to get a stable 500hp i.e. spec of turbo and i/c etc..
500bhp or rwhp?
66mm turbo & 19+psi generally for 500rwhp, Greddy 2 core with water/methanol injection is plenty.
If using water/meth you can go with a smaller turbo and make the same power;
448 @ only 16psi with a 61mm ( ending at 6200rpms, easy 500rwhp )
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fW8Axh2u7NA
What dyno was that? You can get those figures using a Dynojet or Mustang, on UK dynos you will record less figures.
For over 500fly UK figures, T78 or T04R on a extended street port at approx 1.1 BAR, 3 row intercooler
yeah i ment 500bhp also im guessing bigger injectors and fuel pump but what size?
550 primaries and 1680 secondaries with an aeromotive FPR, Supra TT pump or Apexi BNR , or if you want to do it properly external swirl pot to an inline 404 Bosch pump
thanks for the info blitzboy i guess im looking at about 7k to get there so i think it will have to wait what is more realistic from the twins is it about 330bhp without putting stress on them.
yeah 330bhp very realistic for twins without putting undue stress on them
Then once they die you have a great deal of the support mods in place for a single turbo :D
Shaun
what would i need to make 330bhp with twins ive got apexi pfc base map, apexi filters, decat, blitz nur spec exhust.
Better intercooler, bigger injectors, pump and a decent remap will get you close.
what about a aftermarket downpipe? also what size injectors would i need im guessing a 044 fuel pump will do.
Sorry thought you had one, yeah HKS one works well, 4X850s are enough for 330. But if you plan to one day go up to 500bhp you\'ll need more.
Quote from: BlitzBoy;706644What dyno was that? You can get those figures using a Dynojet or Mustang, on UK dynos you will record less figures.
For over 500fly UK figures, T78 or T04R on a extended street port at approx 1.1 BAR, 3 row intercooler
Quote from: BlitzBoy;706670550 primaries and 1680 secondaries with an aeromotive FPR, Supra TT pump or Apexi BNR , or if you want to do it properly external swirl pot to an inline 404 Bosch pump
So... what i have! :)
I was hoping to get 400bhp but maybe i\'ll be getting more from what you say :D
Adam
You should have 450+ mate, will be a different animal from the 99spec setup!
Dont think there\'s anything 99spec left on it :rollin
Adam
if you going for bigger injectors better to just go 1680cc now rather then going 1000cc for 330bhp then buying 1680cc later on for 500+bhp.
means you only buy once :)
stock injectors will do around 350bhp and up to 370bhp with a bump in fuel pressure.
850cc all around will do about 400bhp and 430bhp with a bump in fuel pressure.
if your aiming for 500bhp i would just use 1600cc secondarys as then you have the nice idle, emmisions etc.
On the turbo side its all down to how much boost you wanna run, you can run a smaller turbo but then you will have to run more boost and that means water injection, but to offset that you will have full boost earlier in the rpm range, but to be fair if you want full boost just cog down a gear in my opinion
To do it at
1bar id say t51 kai/t88
for 1.1bar t78/TO4r/gt40/
for 1.25bar gt35/t64
these all depend on porting of course, trying to compare a stock port to a bridgeport will show different figures.
You can do 500bhp on a stock port but you would need to run a big turbo or alot of boost.
Quote from: turbotoaster;706815for 1.25bar gt35/t64
Not trying to argue, but I know nothing about turbo\'s, except I researched a fair bit before I bought mine - 500 is a LOT to expect from a 35r, isn\'t it? I\'m hoping for circa 420 on mine with a conservative tune. I know that Re:Worx recently mapped a 35r to 460ish.
I made a touch over 340 on PFC, 99 spec twins, stock pump, stock injectors, eBay intercooler in a v-mount (custom ducted), air filter, downpipe, decat, and cat back. stock ports.
However, I was hitting 94% duty at times.
Changed the pump to a Walbro, and installed 1680 secondaries, and hit just over 360, but with a much nicer cruise and part throttle response. Whether that was purely mapping, I don\'t know.
I was gonna say what SiH just did, I know you read a lot of RX-7 forums, Mr Toaster, and hate to contradict, but if you were to run 370 on stock injectors you\'d be subjecting them to just ridiculous injector duty cycles. And they\'d break. And so would your engine. Turning up the fuel pressure is not the same as having injectors that can cope properly. I had to uprate my injectors at a mere 350 BHP due to them running well into the 90% duties, and that\'s simply far too much, there\'s no margin for error.
I assume the OP meant "how can I run 500 reliable BHP", not "how can I tune my engine so it\'s like a greande with the pin out"
Quote from: SiH;706818Not trying to argue, but I know nothing about turbo\'s, except I researched a fair bit before I bought mine - 500 is a LOT to expect from a 35r, isn\'t it? I\'m hoping for circa 420 on mine with a conservative tune. I know that Re:Worx recently mapped a 35r to 460ish.
I made a touch over 340 on PFC, 99 spec twins, stock pump, stock injectors, eBay intercooler in a v-mount (custom ducted), air filter, downpipe, decat, and cat back. stock ports.
However, I was hitting 94% duty at times.
Changed the pump to a Walbro, and installed 1680 secondaries, and hit just over 360, but with a much nicer cruise and part throttle response. Whether that was purely mapping, I don\'t know.
Quote from: Nik da Greek;706824I was gonna say what SiH just did, I know you read a lot of RX-7 forums, Mr Toaster, and hate to contradict, but if you were to run 370 on stock injectors you\'d be subjecting them to just ridiculous injector duty cycles. And they\'d break. And so would your engine. Turning up the fuel pressure is not the same as having injectors that can cope properly. I had to uprate my injectors at a mere 350 BHP due to them running well into the 90% duties, and that\'s simply far too much, there\'s no margin for error.
I assume the OP meant "how can I run 500 reliable BHP", not "how can I tune my engine so it\'s like a greande with the pin out"
http://i705.photobucket.com/albums/ww58/guitar_madhouse/Mapping%20day/CIMG8016.jpg
http://i612.photobucket.com/albums/tt207/suiteproductions/Mapping%20REworx/FlywheelHorsePower.jpg
both stock injectors at 85% inj duty
thats 2 UK examples there, im sure i can find more if required......remember SiH pip maps very rich so that uses alot more injector than other people.
on the subject of gt35 ill use this graph to over UK use
\'so I did a run at 1.1 bar on the dyno. End result 404 rwhp\' thats max from reworx, so thats about 480bhp, add another 0.15bar of boost and im sure you will gain another 20bhp
Well done, two examples which obviously prove your point very well. You\'re clearly right and almost everyone else is wrong, but I\'d expect someone with a 200 mph RX-7 to know a bit more than us mere mortals. Just one samll request though;
Quote from: turbotoaster;706847on the subject of gt35 ill use this graph to over UK use
If you could possibly lower your standards to write in English, maybe some of us cretins out here would be able to comprehend just a fraction of your brilliance?
I didn\'t say it\'s not possible - I said what I made, at what duty, in my own experience. Mine was also still sequential.
Nick\'s not saying you can\'t make that power, he\'s making reference to how strained the system is.
I wasn\'t happy running high duties, so I upgraded.
You can\'t just hypothesise on what will make what power at what boost - sometimes real world > internet theory. Maybe 0.15 bar will give you that increase, maybe it won\'t. I\'m sure someone on RX7Club can give you some sums to prove it does.
And I don\'t mean to be funny dude, but Pip has been in this game a LONG time - I\'m afraid I\'d take his maps, knowledge and skills over yours any day of the week. If he maps in a certain way, I\'m damned sure he does it for a reason. I\'m not saying your knowledge isn\'t good, I\'m saying that sometimes, experience gives you what can\'t be learnt from text. I\'m no fanboy, but I\'ll happily take knowledge from the likes of Pip, Max, Geff etc over most internet experts.
I\'ll try and dig out my AFR graph tonight, but tbh, I don\'t really feel like I need to to back the guy up. His reputation does that. All I know is that the car felt considerably faster, nicer to drive, and more civilised with the 1680\'s than it did with the stock injectors. It was so much more driveable and so much quicker than a 5% power increase would suggest, which I can only put down to the injectors and what he managed to do with them.
Just to add to the discussion on achieving 330bhp, my FD did just that with 3" downpipe, decat and cat back, a pfc, a greddy SMIC and a high flow filter element in the stock box. Thas was mapped by Pip and made it at 0.8bar with the injectors being the restricting factor. Everything else was standard. Therefore if you add a boost controller, uprate the IC then get a map you should be about there imo.
Quote from: Nik da Greek;706848Well done, two examples which obviously prove your point very well. You\'re clearly right and almost everyone else is wrong, but I\'d expect someone with a 200 mph RX-7 to know a bit more than us mere mortals. Just one samll request though;
If you could possibly lower your standards to write in English, maybe some of us cretins out here would be able to comprehend just a fraction of your brilliance?
I wrote it out while being in a rush to get out of the door, my apologies if my english skills offend you, i was unaware that grammar on a forum was the understated factor of inteligence.
Theres no need for .....yness on a thread, people got talking about injectors and i commented on it.
I showed you two UK examples of making that power from a well recognised tuner, or should i just not believe it because thats not what pip gets?
Everyone moans when i quote US figures, dont you think i know that alot of there figures are wrong or do you think i follow them like sheep, if i believed them we would all be running around on 350whp stock twins at a bar of boost!
Quote from: SiH;706850I didn\'t say it\'s not possible - I said what I made, at what duty, in my own experience. Mine was also still sequential.
Nick\'s not saying you can\'t make that power, he\'s making reference to how strained the system is.
I wasn\'t happy running high duties, so I upgraded.
You can\'t just hypothesise on what will make what power at what boost - sometimes real world > internet theory. Maybe 0.15 bar will give you that increase, maybe it won\'t. I\'m sure someone on RX7Club can give you some sums to prove it does.
And I don\'t mean to be funny dude, but Pip has been in this game a LONG time - I\'m afraid I\'d take his maps, knowledge and skills over yours any day of the week. If he maps in a certain way, I\'m damned sure he does it for a reason. I\'m not saying your knowledge isn\'t good, I\'m saying that sometimes, experience gives you what can\'t be learnt from text. I\'m no fanboy, but I\'ll happily take knowledge from the likes of Pip, Max, Geff etc over most internet experts.
I\'ll try and dig out my AFR graph tonight, but tbh, I don\'t really feel like I need to to back the guy up. His reputation does that. All I know is that the car felt considerably faster, nicer to drive, and more civilised with the 1680\'s than it did with the stock injectors. It was so much more driveable and so much quicker than a 5% power increase would suggest, which I can only put down to the injectors and what he managed to do with them.
well from all the graphs ive seen from pip, and i have been there to watch him, he maps very rich for the boost, yes its very safe but at the cost of power and running out of injector duty, its even been mentioned on this forum by people!
Im not saying what he does it wrong as he cant really push anything for fear of breaking something and damaging his rep, but i think for low boosts he maps then he maps a bit rich, but thats my opinion only
When i was up there getting a spare part, i asked him about modifying my cooler and said he would do it, when i explained about about piping size we got onto the power i want.
He then asked me why isnt he going to map it, dont i trust him....i mentioned its because i havent heard of you mapping any cars to 2bar, he said hes never gone beyond 1.7bar and if i wanted the power he would do it but probably blow a few engines doing it....not sure how i can say ill trust him when he tells me hes gonna blow up multiple engines, well compare that to reworx and dragon when i chatted to them and they believe they can do it for me with no issues, big difference!
And of course you can hypothesise what power an engine makes, thats the whole idea of a compressor map! you look at the comp map for your chosen boost and it will tell the max power you can possibly get, you then have to work out how close you can get to that power with the mods you have.
If you increase boost pressure and maintain the same oxygen density of course you will make more power, its falling off the compressor map that means you make no more power, its pretty simple.
At gt35 will make power up to around 22psi on a rotary, yes you will need to run alot of water or on e85 fuel so its pretty uncommon over here but that doesnt make it untrue
http://www.jeroentje.nl/media/foto/7011.jpg
another UK gt35 power figure, yes its on e85 fuel but that shows the turbo will flow those lbs of air
also for US
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=waOAcRxD7zg
thats a gt35, you might not believe the power figure but at 130mph you have to compare that to blitzboy as hes 550bhp and similar trap speed
It\'s not shlttyness, it\'s called sarcasm :rolleyes:. Apparently, it\'s the lowest form of wit, but I find that\'s generally said by people who can\'t do it properly
I don\'t really give a monkeys what Pip may or may not do, since he\'s never even seen my car let alone mapped it, it\'s of no relevance to me how conservatively he maps. I was merely stating a commonly-held belief that 350 brake on stockish setup is generally getting towards the upper limit of what the stock injectors will comfortably cope with, but you seem to know better, so whatever, you carry on spouting regurgitated RX-7 club figures and be happy. I care enough to be slightly rude and sarcastic about it, but not really enough to make it my life\'s work trying to persuade you otherwise :WaveBye Believe what you like
i agree with you about the 350bhp on stock fuel pressure, im not saying i dont, but you can go above that and keep to within reasonable inj duty % if you wanted to with a fpr, i was informing people thats its possible as changing to bigger secondary injectors isnt the cheapest option when your still on twins
To be fair if your skint and want to go above 350bhp then its super cheap to just change over to 4x850 as you can do it for £30.
Like I say, I have no idea how to read a compressor map, and theory is all well and good in ideal circumstances, but in the real world, there are so many other factors to consider that it\'s incredibly tricky to provide an accurate figure without incredibly complex modelling.
I know less than nothing about drag racing, and about the effect E85 has, so neither of those links mean anything to me I\'m afraid. I have however spoken to about 4 people and 3 tuners about \'35r equipped cars, and results here in the UK range from the low 400\'s to mid/high 400\'s.
All I\'m saying, is in my experience, with my car, that\'s what I\'ve found. I\'ve driven a twin car with upped fuel pressure on stock injectors, and a purported 360bhp, and tbh, mine with the 1680\'s felt much more tractable. Whether that\'s map, fuelling, or something else, I dunno *shrugs*. I\'m also saying my car was FAR happier with the 1680\'s.
I\'m not saying anyone is wrong or right, just what happened with my car.
Perhaps Pip doesn\'t go too high as he doesn\'t want to risk his reputation, or perhaps he just has a very good understanding of what\'s \'safe\' and what\'s \'pushing it\' and as a result, doesn\'t map for out and out power. Perhaps he also maps for driveability rather than headline figures? Who knows? Not me. TBH if I ask a tuner what they map to, I\'d much rather they were honest with me than just told me that it wouldn\'t be a problem, and \'gave it a bash\'. Not that any of the mentioned guys do this.
I just think that people need to be wary of reading other people\'s words as gospel. When someone asks a question on the internet, it\'s all to frequent to read responses from people who come across as experts, but are just regurgitating rhetoric that they\'ve read elsewhere, and it can be very misleading for the original poster.
At the end of the day, I couldn\'t care less if someone\'s right or wring, I just don\'t want some dude massively disappointed by figures.
compressor maps are pretty simple really, in a nut shell, look for the boost you want, scroll along and the area inside the lines is the amount of pounds of air the turbo will flow.
Increase the pressure and the airflow goes up, until you reach a point where the higher the pressure, the airflow doesnt increase or infact shrinks....simples!
there are differences in engines, but its still a mechanical device, if you build two engines exactly the same then they will make the same or very very similar power.
A few things get up in the air as people go to different places and have differnt spec engines, ie porting, inlet manifolds, intercoolers etc.
The decision the OP has to make is what boost pressure he wants to run and whether hes gonna strip his engine apart and port it.
personally if i was him, id go for a gt4088 at 1.1bar with water injection, that gives him decent spool and not loads of boost, then if he gets bored of that power he can turn the boost up.
if he chose a gt35 then at 500bhp he is already really at the limit for most tuners who are prepared to put there name on it, after that he would probably have to learn himself to get above that.
Not sure what you mean by map for driveability really, if for example we said stock twins, running an engine rich doesnt suddenly make it nicer to drive lol if a stock car is running 360bhp or 330bhp it suddenly wont act like a different car, it will just mean that it pulls harder in boost, anything in part throttle or vaccum should be identical.
is it posible to have injectors to big for the stock turbos and when you say use 1680cc is that all 4 or 2 1680cc primarys and 2 850cc secondarys.
and regarding boost i would only want it up to 0.8/0.9
he means use 1680cc in the secondarys, keep your 550cc in the primary.
if you want that power with only 0.9bar your looking a big turbo, t51r kai/T88/S475/GT42 sized turbo, that will mean 5krpm before full boost, will you be happy with that?
depending who ports your plates, you can get full boost in the low 4k rpm range on a large turbo
very true, this is why i asked if he wants to have a rebuild with porting or gonna use his stock port engine.
We shall see what he wants to do engine wise as that will make a difference a little bit on turbos aswell
Quote from: najiru;706858Just to add to the discussion on achieving 330bhp, my FD did just that with 3" downpipe, decat and cat back, a pfc, a greddy SMIC and a high flow filter element in the stock box. Thas was mapped by Pip and made it at 0.8bar with the injectors being the restricting factor. Everything else was standard. Therefore if you add a boost controller, uprate the IC then get a map you should be about there imo.
Yep me too,well just below at 0.9bar on stock ports/injectors/fuel pump/twins. Also limited by inj duty but having since changing my fuel filter those figures have dropped from circa 94% to 89%.
i be hoping to get 333bhp or at the fly what ever gets displayed on a dyno and it will be stock engine at the moe (untill it goes then rebuild with street porting done) and stock twins so if i get 4x850cc and uprated fuel pump a fmic and a hks downpipe to go with my de-cat and blitz exhust and ive got twin apexi filters stock rad and get it mapped with 0.8/0.9 bar boost.
well looking at that, you will have enough fuel, the fmic will keep the temps down so you should be good to go, how much power you get depends maybe on which tuner you go to
ive new to this and i just found out that there are 2 850cc in as stock so i mite as well get 2 1680cc.
If you get 1680\'s, you\'ll need a new top feed secondary fuel rail - get one of Kev\'s from //www.billetbitz.co.uk - they are works of art.
Bear in mind that if you go that way, you\'ll also need to much about with the fuel lines as well, and the easiest solution is an aftermarket fuel pressure regulator. Realisticaly, you\'re looking at £400 or so to do 1680\'s properly.
Cheaper alternative is to fit 850#s in the stock 550 location - costs about £10-£20 in machining, and £30-£50 for a set of SH injectors.
However, as with any SH injectors, it\'s advisable to get them cleaned and flow tested before fitting - Scholar Engines in Suffolk can do this for you for about £8 per unit or so.