Hi everyone!
I have a 0.5 WI nozzle for my WI kit, I am just wondering if I need just the 1 or if I should go with 2, I would prefer to run with 2 smaller ones than 1 larger one so that the spray pattern is still good.
When I use the WI it will be on the engine with the T88, will be running 1.2Bar plenty of fueling etc
My e-manage ultimate can map itself so I might run 50/50 meth water mix.
I know the water reduces det, am I correct that the meths increase the octane level of the fuel, increase power and reducing the chance of det as well?
id be running a much bigger jet than a 0.5 mate, im sure i read thats only about 250cc of water which isnt much in the scheme of things, im sure people on here will moan but i dont think its enough.
http://media.photobucket.com/image/aquamist%20flow/slowcarIX/flow.jpg?o=1
if you add more meth to the mix your car will run richer in boost so you can either just more boost or use less of your injectors.
Id run it pre turbo injection with 600cc of water, you can run about 1.4-1.5bar then, also if you run a little bit less boost(say 1.2bar) then it will be bullet proof!
Running straight water is easier as its always a constant supply, dont have to worry about running out etc.
You have to make sure you have a decent igntion system though(twinpower min) to run it but its the best way.
If you run meth thats easier to burn so your ignition system will have an easier life, if you ran pure meth then thats like running race gas in your car and you should be able to make some pretty big numbers(as long as your run decent boost)
remember through that if you wanna run pure meth you will need BIG nozzle, personally id run two 500cc nozzles as that will give you all the fuel and det protection you will need.
Ive got loads of info etc on different combinations with loads of tech data if you have any questions
Yeah, I might be running 2 or something, will be running them post turbo, pre intercooler to give the best drop in temperature, not happy with spraying liquid into blades spinning at 100k rpm lol
I might be running 3 fuel rails and 2 pumps, secondaries are going to be upgraded to 1680s, standard 550 primaries for idle quality and I might use the spare 550 secondaries as a 3rd rail if needed.
1.2 bar is all I will be running, anything above that, say 1.4 bar, the engine life is reduced, I got a T88 so I can run low boost and save the engine but still make good numbers.
Ignition system will be custom, will use the OEM FC coils that are very very good, and get the 1980s electronics that power them changed. HT leads are uprated etc etc
How much water do you think I would need for say 15 drag runs? My e-manage will be mapped to start injecting water at anything over 1 bar, so it won\'t be running at the lower boost.
My WI pump isn\'t rated for 100% meths, its a devilsown kit, so its ok for 50/50 but anything more it isn\'t rated for.
It would be good if you could send some data over, I won\'t need WI for a while as I will be running the stock turbo for a while, will only need WI when I bolt the T88 in :)
stock fc coils are indeed better than the fd equivalents in terms of power output but if your putting a t88 on your car the stock ignition wont be able to keep up, especially when you add any w/i
thats the first thing i would be looking at, twin power is easiest but dynatek is best, both work out the same price.
if your still running around on a stock engine your around to 500bhp at 1.2bar, which the 550/1680 will be fine for, you wont need the 3rd rail.
Boost doesnt kill an engine, egts and det does.....there are plenty of people running around on 1.2+ in the uk with no engine problems, its all about mapping.
Pre-turbo has been done for 70 yrs now, its perfectly safe, was done in WW2 and also in CART.
If you looking at straight water i personally think you should go for at least 500cc(as long as your ignition is strong enough you wont drop power, if its weak your afrs go rich and you loose power.
say you do a 5sec burnout and quarter takes 11s thats say 17secs of w/i
so 3 runs will use 1/2 litre of water.
15 runs is 2.5litres of water.
Stav runs 600cc of water with a t04e and 1.5bar of boost on pump fuel and his is a drift car so gets alot of abuse(never seen someone use the limiter as much as him lol)
Yeah the stock coils are good, but upgraded electronics behind them will increase the voltage and give a better spark etc, don\'t worry its all in hand :)
I was going to look at twinpower, but the twinpower is quite a weak setup, but better than stock, it can\'t be a CDI system like say an MSD, just look at the size difference lol
Hmm I will defiantly think about it, might push to 1.4 maybe, would only be for a short burst, my boost controller allows for a scramble boost setting that can raise the boost and solenoid duty cycle for a limited period of time giving you more power for a bit :)
The engine will have stock ports to begin with, but I will get the engine rebuilt soon after and upgrade the seals and corner springs etc and will get an extended streetport.
I don\'t see why I need to run pre turbo, the pre turbo air isn\'t as hot as the post turbo air, surely it is best to add the cooling in when the air is actually hot to cool it down lol
I might run a few small nozzles then, maybe post turbo and then post intercooler, I have a while to think of a setup.
Need line lock for a burn out lol
Do you think it will run 11s? I am currently running a 14.2 on the stock turbo, slipping clutch, boost leak and stock boost lol
I will see how much my tank can hold, I am using what I believe to be a first gen screenwash tank which is just about the most massive screenwash tank I have ever seen lol
Stavs engine failed due to detonation as his pre turbo WI nozzle fell off hate to think what the intake temps are on a T04E at 1.5bar!
You will run 11s if the cars got the power and OK grip, I did 12.4@119.5 (12.4@119.5) in a drift car with a crap 2sec 60ft and a turbo half the size of yours. Even with a 1.8 60ft I\'d probably be in the 11s, and thats just a grip/launch thing.
Having a T88 is no sure fire way, but id be massively wounded if I didnt considering.
Quote from: m1tch;695299not happy with spraying liquid into blades spinning at 100k rpm lol
You best go tell all the gas turbine powerstations to stop using whole rooms full of water mist jets as inlets to the compressors before they hurt themselves then, lol.
And then go back in time and tell the USAF before we lose WW2. Oh, hang on.
TBH its been proven over and over on car turbos at even 1.5litres a min that done right it doesnt do any damage, so you can choose theory or proven reality really. Im running 660cc/min pre-turbo, only did a few thousand hard miles, but no noticable damage, and thats craploads of water for a tiny T04E 57trim.
Quote from: m1tch;695303I don\'t see why I need to run pre turbo, the pre turbo air isn\'t as hot as the post turbo air, surely it is best to add the cooling in when the air is actually hot to cool it down lol
Because if you dont let the air get as hot in the first place, it doesnt get as hot.
Increased compressor efficiency etc etc etc.
I was running 119.5mph terminal speed with 2sec+ 60fts and slow gearchanges with a tiny T04E 57trim. Look at the Mph and turbos they are using. Im not saying its the pre-turbo injection effectively making the turbo act like its running a bigger compressor, but maybe I am.
I just did it to enable high boost safely, and my point was proven perfectly when the jet came out due to my shoddy install and killed my engine, lol.
Yeah, but the intake temperature is ambient, the air post turbo is well above ambient, so cooling the intake charge when it is at its hottest will give a bigger temperature drop than if you cooled the ambient air down?
The WI is there for 2 things
- reduce charge temperature
- reduce Engine combustion temps
For the former - the earlier you can inject it the more chance it has to cool - also, meths has a better latent heat of evaporaton due to it\'s lower evaporaton temperature - so actually provides more effective cooling than water in the charge air. I share your phobia about injecting pre turbo - but a lot of people do with no issues - I think as long as atomisation is good, then it should be ok. The only real danger I could see is that the turbo will compress the air / water / meths mixture and possibly result in increase droplet size as the atomised mist is squashed together.
The engine combustion temps - it doesn\'t matter where you inject the water - as long as it\'s nicely atomised before going into the combustion chamber. In the engine - the Water has 4 times the capacity to remove heat than the methanol. Some sort of water / meths mix is a good compromise - and also protects the life of the pump and your WI fittings, as the meths is quite corrosive to metals for long term contact.
With your turbo - it might be worth getting another 0.5mm jet and staging them. I\'d also think about bringing the water in before 1 bar - say 0.8-0.9 bar maybe, and then stage another injector in just after 1 bar.
I plan on starting the WI (water only) at 10 psi but progressively increasing the water pressure and therefore water amount as the boost rises. I\'m using water only, as the WI and intercooler sprayer will use the same pump but a solenoid in the engine bay switches the supply between WI and the sprayer. I don\'t want meths dripping around my engine bay !!
Quote from: m1tch;695303Yeah the stock coils are good, but upgraded electronics behind them will increase the voltage and give a better spark etc, don\'t worry its all in hand :)
I was going to look at twinpower, but the twinpower is quite a weak setup, but better than stock, it can\'t be a CDI system like say an MSD, just look at the size difference lol
Hmm I will defiantly think about it, might push to 1.4 maybe, would only be for a short burst, my boost controller allows for a scramble boost setting that can raise the boost and solenoid duty cycle for a limited period of time giving you more power for a bit :)
The engine will have stock ports to begin with, but I will get the engine rebuilt soon after and upgrade the seals and corner springs etc and will get an extended streetport.
I don\'t see why I need to run pre turbo, the pre turbo air isn\'t as hot as the post turbo air, surely it is best to add the cooling in when the air is actually hot to cool it down lol
I might run a few small nozzles then, maybe post turbo and then post intercooler, I have a while to think of a setup.
Need line lock for a burn out lol
Do you think it will run 11s? I am currently running a 14.2 on the stock turbo, slipping clutch, boost leak and stock boost lol
I will see how much my tank can hold, I am using what I believe to be a first gen screenwash tank which is just about the most massive screenwash tank I have ever seen lol
Stavs engine failed due to detonation as his pre turbo WI nozzle fell off hate to think what the intake temps are on a T04E at 1.5bar!
Hence why i said about using a dynatek kit, they are in the UK, and put out 189mj....thats alot, enough to fire 1600cc of water and 7000cc of fuel at 34psi of boost, you ill never need anything else! For reference MSD only puts out 115mj, twinpower even less, the dynatek is similar size to it if your worried about space.
Well if your planning on getting a rebuild in the future to be honest id be looking at running some decent boost, let that turbo stretch its legs a bit, thats what w/i is there for in my opinion, allow you to do something you normally couldnt do.
You dont need line lock for a burnout, unless your gonna start trying to run low 10s then sitting there smoking your tyres before a run.
Your car will walk 11s, stavs results show its easy, mine show its even easier!
on wednesday i ran a 12.8 in an fd with normal tyres, stock seq-twins, only 10psi of boost in the first 3 gears and no boost in fourth on my first ever run at pod with the car, if i take it back im thinking i can get the car easily down into the low 12s, with decent tyres id be expecting mid 11s!!
Quote from: StavFC;695307You will run 11s if the cars got the power and OK grip, I did 12.4@119.5 (12.4@119.5) in a drift car with a crap 2sec 60ft and a turbo half the size of yours. Even with a 1.8 60ft I\'d probably be in the 11s, and thats just a grip/launch thing.
Having a T88 is no sure fire way, but id be massively wounded if I didnt considering.
You best go tell all the gas turbine powerstations to stop using whole rooms full of water mist jets as inlets to the compressors before they hurt themselves then, lol.
And then go back in time and tell the USAF before we lose WW2. Oh, hang on.
TBH its been proven over and over on car turbos at even 1.5litres a min that done right it doesnt do any damage, so you can choose theory or proven reality really. Im running 660cc/min pre-turbo, only did a few thousand hard miles, but no noticable damage, and thats craploads of water for a tiny T04E 57trim.
Because if you dont let the air get as hot in the first place, it doesnt get as hot.
Increased compressor efficiency etc etc etc.
Pretty much sums up what im trying to tell you, why let something get hot them cool it down, stop it getting hot in the first place.
I assume you know why people run bigger turbos.......its not because they are scared like most rotarys are of running decent boost, its because the turbo runs out of power.
As you spin the compressor wheel faster to flow more air(to in turn make more power) it reaches the point where the air coming out of the turbo is so hot that the density decreases and you gain no more power.
This is called coming out of if its efficiency map....normally at this point you would upgrade to the next sized turbo, allowing you the power but at the cost of slightly later boost threshold, but if you could get away with that not happening then great.
This is what pre turbine w/i does for you, because you spray the water into the compressor wheel you have the water there at the point of compression, this is when the air is at its hottest point and as such when the water can have the maximum impact.
Because you arnt letting the air heat up to a certain level you still let the turbocharger increase boost pressure without an increase in heat.......effectively extending a compressor map.
From this you keep the spool of a smaller turbo with the power of a larger one......ftw!
One difference aswell between pre and post turbo is on pre you have to run alot more water.
Its first job is to cool the compressed air as its in the turbocharger and then the remaining water vapour has to travel through the intercooler and into the combustion chamber to slow the burn rate down to keep det away.
Its got 2 jobs hence you need more of it for it to have the both benefits
Quote from: m1tch;695315Yeah, but the intake temperature is ambient, the air post turbo is well above ambient, so cooling the intake charge when it is at its hottest will give a bigger temperature drop than if you cooled the ambient air down?
See above what i just put in regards of that