Had some fun doing sprints and drag racing on Wednesday (119.5mph terminal speed using a tiny T04E 57trim, pretty impressed with that, esp as it a drift car, no drag racer), but I\'ve hurt the engine, but not sure what, and hopefully someone with more experience of dead rotarys can help diagnose...
The scenario---
Pre-compressor water injection jet fell off, meaning no water was being injected on one run.
Car started to missfire.
Swapped plugs for new ones but no change. Old plugs looked fine though.
Then became impossible to start and took serious effort to even push start.
Made horrendous metallic screeching noise from somewhere so shut it down again.
Had to try and get it home, so push started it and it was knocking from somewhere at idle and idling very low and lumpy as hell.
Drove ok, slow and lumpy, very low idle, but could cruise at 70 no worries and was ok in traffic.
Realised above about 5000rpm the missfire cleared up and it actually drove normally?!
Drove it home 100miles, and close to home I thought id try and finish it off as the damaged seemed to be done, so drove it at max revs and boost, and that didn\'t make it any worse and felt like it was at normal power above 5k.
Got home and it was still knocking from somewhere at idle and barely running.
During this whole time---
AFRs were still fine at the mid 10s.
Oil temp is fine.
Oil pressure is fine.
Water temp is fine.
Didn\'t use any water or oil, levels are same as at the start of the day.
Most of the above makes it sound like an electrical issue, but the horrible knocking and metallic noises, and the fact it happened on the run the water injection pipe came off, suggests mechanical.
Pulled the 100mile old plugs when I got in...
Rear rotor, black and rich and normal really
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/1003/monkeymagic/rearrotor.jpg)
Front rotor, orange, almost, well, rusty
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/1003/monkeymagic/frontrotor.jpg)
These plugs had done 100 miles, and were installed new AFTER the problem first started.
Did seem, under 5k anyhow, like it was only running on 1 or 1 and a bit rotors. Or maybe both, but not well.
Did a compression test using a normal Gunsons piston compression tester, how useful that is on a Rotary, im not sure.
Both rotors got near as damnit 5bar on a cold engine. No idea if thats good or not?
Heard rotary comp testing with one only works if you hold the pressure release button in, so did that too. The needle moves so fast you cant tell much, but just seemed to sump up and down in a blur to about 2-3bar on both rotors.
What does that tell me? I dont know. Probably broke though.
Any experienced diagnosis welcomed :)
sorry, cant help but any time figures for your 1/4 mile run and how much boost were you using :)
just curious lol
Probably blown/chipped a tip - the higher the rpms, the more centrifugal force the seals have the better they seal.
If it sounds like a tractor on idle, you have probably blow the rear rotor, get a proper compression test done by mazda.
As you have kept driving the car it would have trashed the rotor, housing and probably both plates now....
sounds dead to me chap, time to pull it and rebuild it.
It\'s definitely a failed seal - and probably chipped/cracked as they do tend to \'go smooth\' again at higher revs.
As for how much damage is done - it would be really hard to tell without pulling it apart. There is one test you can do - poor mans compression test - pull the lower plus, and also the \'EGI\' fuse from the engine bay - will stop the fuel and ignition systems. Then have someone crank it with the foot on the throttle and listen for even whooshes from each rotor housing - 3 even whoosh sounds means it\'s probably ok - you are listening for 1 or 2 whooshes that are distinctly more \'flat\' sounding - meaning lost compression. Get 2 on the one rotor and it usualy means an Apex seal - get 1 and it could be a side seal or corner seal.
You could have damage on front or rear or both rotors - but usually it\'s only 1 (usually the rear) that let\'s go.
I think it\'s rebuild o\'clock though :(
BTW - those plugs look a little odd to be in a rotary - normally the centre electrode cross type are what\'s used.
I\'d be worried about the rust on the plugs too - that\'s quite possibly caused by coolant - which means coolant seal failure.
Even though we had our arguments in the past dude , I feel sorry for your blown engine.
As been said by Mitch and from my past blowup 3 years ago, chipped seal symptoms on one of the faces it will run normally past a certain rpm due to centrifugal force.
You would have gone ultra lean when the WI stopped causing the det.
The plugs also indicate this as well with unburnt fuel making your plugs looks dark and dirty.
Get a compression test done with a Mazda comp tester.
L18M- Low 12s with a terrible 2sec+ 60ft, lowest was maybe 12.3 I think? Would be mid 11s even with an \'ok\' 1.6 60ft by looks of it, not bad for a turbo thats meant to be maxed out at less than 400bhp on a Rotary.
1.5bar on pump fuel (holidng about 1.3 top end, turbo too small) thanks to my pre-compressor water injection setup, was happy for a good while now even on held top speed runs like that. But without the water it didnt even take a whole 1/4mile to kill it. My fault TBH, I shouldve secured the jet better.
Mitch- Being used for what its used for, it pretty much lives on or near the 8k limiter. Dunno about tractor, but does sound .....
Im not taking it to Mazda for anything though, its clearly broke and paying good money to get it there and back isnt going to help me :(
The damage was done, the minute that screeching noise happened that was clear. That stopped, the car drove, and got no worse all the way home, so im pretty confident the drive did nothing more than what had happed.
Dave- Does seem that way, but at the prices ive been quoted for rebuilds, I dunno...
Prof- Sorry, forgot to mention, I did the woosh test too. Didnt help really? Both sounded the same, and with regular wooshes. So either both are down to one tip (wouldnt run at all would it?!), all tips are ok, or my ears are rubbish.
The plugs are B10EGVs and are fine and used on countless big power and big boost rotaries worldwide.
And agree it kinda looked like rust, but its not used a jot of water, so not sure.
Blitz- AFRs stayed in the 10s even on the death run, I watched the LM2 all the way down. Im injecting 660cc a min pre-turbo and with or without water AFRs only change by about .3, but the difference to cooling and det prevention is on another planet, a planet that cant be seen by a AFR meter unfortunately.
Annoyingly I disconnected my charge temp gauge the day before to relocate it. Temps were low as hell with the water, but I wouldnt be surprised if they wouldve went high enough on that run soon enough that idve realised and let off. But who knows, no point looking at the past.
Edit
1.5 BAR without the WI working on pump fuel even though your afrs are in 10s will still cause the DET, UK pump 99 octane fuel is ok on a Rotary up to 1.2 BAR then it starts to get dodgy, T04E efficiancy map will change as soon as the WI stops working and you be pumping in a lot of hot compressed air at that boost pressure which would cause the det hence the chipped seal.
when and where was the engine built chap?
Blitz-
Exactly that.
Just wanted to know what damage had been likely done as none of the checks has proven conclusive But \'chipped tooth\' is everyones reply so far, so its highly likely.
It was happy as larry like that for 5-6 1/4mile runs before that, all the sprint runs, and plenty of hard driving and even 150mph+ held runs other days too.
On that run it went iffy and soon as popped the bonnet could see the likely reason why- jet had fell out sometime in the run, meaning no water at all :(:Hammer
Dave-
Japan. Sometime 2007 or earlier IIRC.
BY ERC- http://www.erc-rotary.com/
Quote from: StavFC;694924Prof- Sorry, forgot to mention, I did the woosh test too. Didnt help really? Both sounded the same, and with regular wooshes. So either both are down to one tip (wouldnt run at all would it?!), all tips are ok, or my ears are rubbish.
The plugs are B10EGVs and are fine and used on countless big power and big boost rotaries worldwide.
And agree it kinda looked like rust, but its not used a jot of water, so not sure.
If it\'s only cracked / chipped - then it might not change the note enough to effect the noise - it\'s far from an accurate test. A mazda compression tester on it would show up the problem. Most of the rotary specialists would do that for about £30 or so.
The screeching was probably the bit that got chipped off being dragged around the housing - scoring a nice line in it for you - it\'s what happened on my number 4 engine and the symptoms exactly as you described. I lost both front and rear - although front damage was far less than the rear - the rear cracked 2 apex seals, smacked a hole in the rotor - gouged out 2 tramlines in the rotor housing - all in an instant. It ran well enough to drive to work - but the damage had already been done the instant the det happened.
Depending on your exhaust manifold - you may be able to take that off and have a look at apex seals through the exhaust ports - you can\'t see very ends - which is unfortunately where they tend to go - but if you have a borescope / mirror you may get a look inside.
Well the most likely damage will be one rotor housing,possible one rotor damaged,apex seals. The plates themselves will most likely survive as mine did when I chipped a seal 3 years ago.
You can get good second engine parts from Dragon or Tim from RX motors has loads of used good housings on the shelf
Did you not have a backup WI system? If I was running something scary like 1.5bar in a rotary I would probably be doing pre turbo and pre intercooler lol What nozzle was it btw? Were you only running the one?
Gloucestershire isnt super far from hayward rotary is it? Just get a compression test done once and for all on it and save all the specurlation. You got options atleast - hayward, hurley prob have a tester or convince jit to go out there
Mitch-
A backup? Not sure how? Any kind of backup would just be injecting too much water until something went wrong. Unless I had a special \'shoddy jet install\' sensor invented that could switch on another setup once the main jet fell out, but I reckon idve been better off just installing the current one better! (hindsight is 20-20!)
1.5bar is still girls boost in my opinion, but it was where id got to so far with the time I had. Was nice to have torque and drivability though, despite being on full boost by under 3k the original 0.85bar was appaling, despite decent top end power.
Personally I dont see the point of anywhere but pre-turbo TBH, there cars running 700@wheels and 2.5bar running just pre turbo and pump fuel, and my testing (i used to run post-intercooler) seemed to back that up.
Was running 660cc/min jet (10GPH), much more than most do for the turbo size (in the UK anyhow), single jet- more jets is more to go wrong.
Adam-
Its clearly broke regardless, the cost of transporting it somewhere is only worth while if I was then to 100% leave it with that place to do all the work to fix it.
there\'s a half-bridge short block in the for sale section, would be the easiest solution: http://www.mazdarotaryclub.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64391
swap it in, take the old block out and strip it to see exactly what went wrong, sell all the good bits off. you could make a fair chunk of the outlay for the new block back if you can sell some good plates/housings/rotors.
Jack- Good call and well spotted, thanks :)
Just so you know that is an Fd block. Fc block mounts differently and possibly has different lower intake
Didnt know FD blocks mounted different to FCs? Anyone got any links/details on this?
Know the inlets different, but thats no big deal.
Fc mounts off side of centreplate. Fd off bottom of rear plate. Also I think fc housings have 2 water ways in the side into inlet? Or something like that
Quote from: ad4m1;694972Fc mounts off side of centreplate. Fd off bottom of rear plate. Also I think fc housings have 2 water ways in the side into inlet? Or something like that
The water routing in the manifold is different - but Stav had an aftermarket turbo on his anyway - not sure if it\'s water cooled.
The rotor housings have the same water outlets - it\'s just where they end up from the manifold routing.
The engine mounts are going to be the problem though - FD\'s mount up on the rear iron, FC\'s on the centre iron. Having said that, I\'m not sure if you could fit the manifolds and engine mounts, and sump from an FC (the drivers side mount bolts into part of the sump). Then you\'ve got the problem with the pulleys and all the rest of it at the front being different.
Ok, so maybe that engine isnt a brilliant idea, cheers for the info.
Ive just spoke to a mate who can build rotarys, he\'s pretty much convinced me to do it myself, with his guidance of course.
I can build piston engines well enough, but never touched the insides of a rotary.
I\'d like to learn how, and deffo prefer having nobody to blame but myself for things going wrong (i mean, im NOT AT ALL ....ed that my engines blown, as what went wrong I did, but if someone else had done these increased power mods and blew it up id be livid), so may end up going this route.
And im sure you\'d all be happier than if I put a V8 or a Cossie YB in it, lol.
Did wonder if you might go down that route with it (the boinger route), but the DIY rebuild is a good learner. Gives you a real appreciation for how the things put together. It need not be overly expensive - but from my own recent experience :
- Get the rebuild DVD\'s and watch them - they are a bit slow paced - but give a lot of visual and measurement info.
- Get a copy of the FC Field Service Manuals on PDF
- Ask loads of questions
- Lock yourself away for the final engine assembly time so you don\'t get interrupted.
You\'ll find the prep work labour intensive, and checking everything is in tolerance is a pain - but worth doing if you want a running engine at the end of it. I can see why the engine builders charge the monies they do.
Good luck with it - which ever route you take.
Heard the other day that you\'d blown it up. I\'d reiterate what Blitz said really, whatever has gone before I\'m sorry to hear of any rotary runner blowing their engine. Worth bearing in mind in your rebuild plans that if it\'s broken an apex seal (which sounds inevitable really given the symptoms) in addition to housing and rotor damage it may well have wnakered the turbo hotwheel and housing too, depending on how big a lump of tip it spat out.
Hope you can get it sorted and resurrected for sensible cash, that car deserves to live again really
Yup it deserves to live again... And with a rotary :)
good on you for rebuilding it
Quote from: Nik da Greek;695043Heard the other day that you\'d blown it up.
Never ceases to amaze me how people ive never met and have no idea how they know me but have some bizzare irrational internet hatred for me hear about my life.
Can imagine all the whoops of joy as the rumour spreads around the internet haters, lol.
It will live again, most likely with a rotary as it looks the best current option.
TBH its not the rotary that makes it quick as it is (the lightness did that, its a basic low power engine), or handle like it does, or look like it does, or any of the attributes I like, so I wouldnt lose any sleep if it wasnt one anymore, in fact in a lot of respects id like it not to be.
But as said, it currently looks to be the best VFM option so it probably will be the spinning wheels of unreliability once again, lol.
Quote from: StavFC;695074Never ceases to amaze me how people ive never met and have no idea how they know me but have some bizzare irrational internet hatred for me hear about my life.
Can imagine all the whoops of joy as the rumour spreads around the internet haters, lol.
Well, I think you maybe overestimate your relevance and importance to most people\'s everyday lives here tbh :rolleyes:. If this was the case I\'d have expected to see a few more "Stav\'s blown his FC up hahaha isn\'t it funny" threads appear three days ago, but since the silence was fairly deafening, I think you can conclude most people don\'t give a fduk
Quote from: StavFC;695074It will live again, most likely with a rotary as it looks the best current option.
TBH its not the rotary that makes it quick as it is (the lightness did that, its a basic low power engine), or handle like it does, or look like it does, or any of the attributes I like, so I wouldnt lose any sleep if it wasnt one anymore, in fact in a lot of respects id like it not to be.
But as said, it currently looks to be the best VFM option so it probably will be the spinning wheels of unreliability once again, lol.
Glad to hear it\'ll still be rotary, and well done for phrasing it in such sympathetic terms on what is after all a rotary forum.
Quote from: m1tch;694916Probably blown/chipped a tip - the higher the rpms, the more centrifugal force the seals have the better they seal.
If it sounds like a tractor on idle, you have probably blow the rear rotor, get a proper compression test done by mazda.
As you have kept driving the car it would have trashed the rotor, housing and probably both plates now....
This is it basically.
Did the same on the runway at Bruntingthorpe - didn\'t even realise until I pulled into the pit area and it idled like a tractor.
Chipped a tip in my case.
If all goes well I\'ll have a spare FC 13B soon that may have some useful bits, and can get on with the rebuild, and learning how too. Granted I can do piston engines, but despite having less parts, a rotary ive never touched so far less confident. But im quite looking forward to learning!
Be interested to see the port sizes and shapes actually, as I dont know what it is barring its ported.
Power wise I need at least the same if not more to keep me happy (ideally far more TBH), but not totally sure what im going to do there, as I like the response at the moment (not fusssed about low down power, it lives on the rev limiter :D but the throttle response once in the boost threshhold I mean) so dont want to lose that as its main use is drift/sprint/track rather than straight line stuff.
We will see how things go.
Appreciate the advice though, glad everyone agrees the way its likely to be dead, gives me something to work from :Thumbsup!
Quote from: Nik da Greek;695091I think you maybe overestimate your relevance
You the one who said
\'I heard you\'d blown it up\' like someone had told you, despite not knowing me or anything about me, so... ;)
I dont have people coming up to me and telling me about the car issues of people I dont know and have no interest about, lol...
Either way, good stuff crapping up another thread of mine with your internet hero skillz :god
You\'re welcome :WaveBye
you are officially one of us...one of us...one of us...
Stav your engine blowing up has brought you closer to all of us here at MRC. we now fully respect you, we feel your pain.
Send me your broken seals and ill send them off in a little flaming canoe (viking stylee) down the mersey while grandpapa plays them out to sea on his bagpipes.
PS get brand new everything in your engine and build it yourself (esp housings) dont have some cowboy build it for you and charge you a fortune
And build it strong.
Regards
Carl
Quote from: StavFC;695074Never ceases to amaze me how people ive never met and have no idea how they know me but have some bizzare irrational internet hatred for me hear about my life.
Can imagine all the whoops of joy as the rumour spreads around the internet haters, lol.
It will live again, most likely with a rotary as it looks the best current option.
TBH its not the rotary that makes it quick as it is (the lightness did that, its a basic low power engine), or handle like it does, or look like it does, or any of the attributes I like, so I wouldnt lose any sleep if it wasnt one anymore, in fact in a lot of respects id like it not to be.
But as said, it currently looks to be the best VFM option so it probably will be the spinning wheels of unreliability once again, lol.
Its quotes like these that really p1ss me off, you dont deserve a fduking rotary.
being a member of a nationwide magazine you\'ll have access to many car stats so you can enlighten us to which cars are so reliable after YOU start pushing them beond their design?
Use good reliable parts and experianced people to fit them and you wont get a problem.
Quote from: StavFC;695311Appreciate the advice though, glad everyone agrees the way its likely to be dead, gives me something to work from :Thumbsup!
Well it will be a (sort of) pleasant surprise when its torn down if it not! :Giggle
Quote from: HaywardRotary;695418And build it strong.
Regards
Carl
Hows does one define strong?
i was wondering that myself, make sure your tolerances are correct on your clearancing and there really isnt much more you can do.
Its not like forged components are easily avaliable, ok you can get billet rotors from USA but its not a common thing.
only thing i can think of is changing the seals, but that leaves you with 2 options, do you go for
1. seals that bend when you det so it doesnt destroy the housing.....good in theory but have been known to be weaker than traditional seals(ie will bend at a certain level that a normal seal would have stayed together)
2 ceramic seals, normally very expensive but when your pushing the boundaries they are very strong, dont wear housings as bad and are very strong, bad point is that when they do finally break they make a massive mess destroying pretty much the whole engine and turbo setup.
Im looking forward to what stav comes up with for his rebuild, ive given him a contact if he needs fc parts anyway for a rebuild so i hope he has a go at it
Quote from: RobMatthews;695563Its quotes like these that really p1ss me off, you dont deserve a fduking rotary.
being a member of a nationwide magazine you\'ll have access to many car stats so you can enlighten us to which cars are so reliable after YOU start pushing them beond their design?
Use good reliable parts and experianced people to fit them and you wont get a problem.
Not to speak for him, but it does seem as though the comment was made in irony and jest (\'lol.\'?). Especially as there are pages and pages of stavros on other forums actually attesting to how rotaries seem to be more reliable and better suited when running more horsepower than a piston equivalent (ca18 vs 13bt example on driftworks springs to mind). Difference of interpretation :Typing
You also seem to be forgetting the many, many threads on here with people swearing holy hell and critising their rotaries because it blew up the umpteenth time, I doubt you\'ve posted this kind of response saying they dont deserve a rotary on these threads! :Giggle
Worth bearing in mind this engine blew because he was experimenting and trying to push the widely accepted boundries, something which is
beneficial for the rotary scene (in this case trying to run similiar boost to piston engines and increasing the torque:hp ratio, something which rotaries are criticised for). Anyway chill, and show some support/help, people are going to be putting a lot of time and energy into this engine because of a similiar passion to yours :guinness
Quote from: BenLewisMav;695568Not to speak for him, but it does seem as though the comment was made in irony and jest (\'lol.\'?). Especially as there are pages and pages of stavros on other forums actually attesting to how rotaries seem to be more reliable and better suited when running more horsepower than a piston equivalent (ca18 vs 13bt example on driftworks springs to mind). Difference of interpretation :Typing
You also seem to be forgetting the many, many threads on here with people swearing holy hell and critising their rotaries because it blew up the umpteenth time, I doubt you\'ve posted this kind of response saying they dont deserve a rotary on these threads! :Giggle
Worth bearing in mind this engine blew because he was experimenting and trying to push the widely accepted boundries, something which is beneficial for the rotary scene (in this case trying to run similiar boost to piston engines and increasing the torque:hp ratio, something which rotaries are criticised for). Anyway chill, and show some support/help, people are going to be putting a lot of time and energy into this engine because of a similiar passion to yours :guinness
Damn fine sentiment here.
We should look to what we have in common rather than the opposite.
Quote from: BenLewisMav;695564Well it will be a (sort of) pleasant surprise when its torn down if it not! :Giggle
Hows does one define strong?
I think carls talking about Spinach and Weetabix :Viking:Viking:Viking:Viking:Viking "build it with the strength of 5 vikings or dont build it at all" thats what my Nan used to say.
Quote from: iaint;695574Damn fine sentiment here.
We should look to what we have in common rather than the opposite.
ONE OF US...ONE OF US...
Quote from: RobMatthews;695563Its quotes like these that really p1ss me off, you dont deserve a fduking rotary
Deserve eh, like its a diamond encrusted F1 engine unavailable to purchase and only given to gods, rather than a mass produced road car engine whos numbers reach into the millions.
Calm down dear, it was a joke, and I expect you have noticed Rotary engines have a world famous stereotype, legendary even, for being unreliable.
But thats something I dont actually agree with, and tbh until tuner (ie me) error killed it, my car was doing a bloody good job of disproving.
Mine only broke, even though I was doing what most people say not to (1.5bar boost on pump fuel, a massive amount of water being sprayed into the inlet of the turbo, pushing a ....y little T04E 57trim past what most claim is its \'rotary\' limit, etc etc), due to my inept fitting of the water jet (note to self \'that will do\' really wont do).
Prior to that the engine was loving 8000rpm, 1.5bar boost on pump fuel (was running 0.8 when I purchased it!), and living near the rev limiter for a long time now- Not many engines can do that with as little fuss as it has, and only died due to my error, not the engines weakness.
For the last year ive had countless people at events, even on the one where I broke the engine, come up to me and remark how much of a beating it gets and has no issues in the slightest, even though most the piston engines have at least some minor problem by the end of the day.
If thats not a good testament to their potential, I dont know what is.
Done right they can make ridiculous power and revs for sustained times with no issue, and I love that.
The only disadvantage they have in comparison to piston engines up to even double its 1308cc, aside from general lack of knowlege, is the fact small issues and errors kill them much faster, making expererments difficult and tuning and ownership much less fool proof, and unfortunately car ownership and tuning is full of us fools, lol.
Im not daft enough to think they are the best thing everrrrrrrr in any respect, not even the best for producing power far beyond their intended levels (something Rob got so angry about), but for what they are, when pushing for high power, the potential when done right is nothing short of awesome.
lol stav i love the way people get so mad at you in the car world, have to say i personally know stav, see him pretty much every weekend in some messy state and tbh the guy is a good and nice guy!
i know how he drives and he drives hard! there is no way that engine had an easy life!
for the way people seem to have a problem with him he knows his ....! like im pretty sure nearly everyone in the uk running water injection run it after the intercooler, yet every other country that runs big power on rotaries they run it pre turbo or pre intercooler, stav went and proved that running pre turbo you get really really good results from it!
people need to stop bringing where he works in to it that has nothing to do with it! i have seen people on this forum and others make complete .... ups of the way they run and do things yet they dont get the .... stav does, dont get me wrong im not some sort of fanclub for stav, im just saying the way he ran the engine is more than most people on here would ever dream of doing let alone actually do it!
if he wanted to stick a b16 or something in it, who cares i mean really... its his car its down to him! i see things people do to their cars on here and i dont personally like them but i dont get my arse in my hand about it!
i wouldnt ever put anything but a rotary in my fd, however i can see the appeal of a big fat v8 tbh!
Quote from: StavFC;695603The only disadvantage they have in comparison to piston engines up to even double its 1308cc, aside from general lack of knowlege, is the fact small issues and errors kill them much faster, making expererments difficult and tuning and ownership much less fool proof, and unfortunately car ownership and tuning is full of us fools, lol.
Probably the truest statement about the rotary engine. Bad ancillaries or a .... up with tuning will see an engine out anyday.
Just sell the FC and get something else, dibs ;)
We had a spark plug end fall off into an engine the other day,needless to say the engine needs a rebuild! It is running around 550hp though. Of course if that happens (And it does) in a piston engine then same scenario exists regarding rebuilds!
Our Apex seals all survived though and are much stronger than Mazda\'s.
Regards
Carl
Carl- I was half expecting plug damage on mine TBH, but they were good as gold. But yeah, plug and then engine damage due to det is a universal spark ignition thing.
Quote from: Kieron;695625Just sell the FC and get something else, dibs ;)
Im not daft and have irrational love for inanimate objects (ie cars) like some seem to, everything has a price, so dibs all you like, but you\'d need some money first.
Ive sold all my previous cars for either what I paid for em and mostly a fair profit, and purely to get something better. I dont do the huge losses some seem to accept with cars, I couldnt afford that.
Thing is though, its only worth IF you can get something better for the money, and due to the spec of my car, getting something as quick in a straight line and good handling as mine (in no small part due to the extreme lightness) would be impossible I reckon even if I sold it for more money than I paid for it.
Seems like no matter if I was in to drag racing, drifting, track, whatever, my car, regardless of engine, its the ideal car to base it on, so would need some serious cash or another serious bargain to appear to let it go.
QuoteThing is though, its only worth IF you can get something better for the money, and due to the spec of my car, getting something as quick in a straight line and good handling as mine (in no small part due to the extreme lightness) would be impossible I reckon even if I sold it for more money than I paid for it.
Seems like no matter if I was in to drag racing, drifting, track, whatever, my car, regardless of engine, its the ideal car to base it on, so would need some serious cash or another serious bargain to appear to let it go.
FC\'s FTW!!!!!!!!
Was about to pull the engine today, but things have got even stranger now...
My brother was over from Canada and out of random interest I decided to show him the car was fooked, and oddly, it started!
Sounded lumpy and low, but it started?! Stopped and started it about 10 times and it fired up and idled every time, hot or cold- It would barely start even with a push start before.
We did a spark test-
Pull off the leading plug leads and it idles worse, but each rotor sounded the same, like they was running as healthily as each other.
Pulled off the trailing plug leads, and despite them sparking strongly, it had zero effect on idle- Do they do nothing at idle then?
The amount of missfire and so on varied randomly as was running too, better and worse, which seemed at odds with mechanical issues too.
Pulled off MAP sensor and FPR pipes and that affected idle as expected, so its neither them at fault.
The plug leads thing, showing both engines acting identically well/badly, plus the general behaviour of the car when it acting like this, suggests its not the engine now?!
Im going to change the fuel filter next and see if that makes any difference, but overall, im confused as fook.
BUT if its not mechanical, thats awesome.
I jus cant see how it can be mechanical, as the likelyhood of BOTH rotors having exactly the same amount of tip damage as each other that you cannot physically tell one from the other when testing them by pulling plug leads while running, is pretty damn remote, surely?
Compression test will tell you once and for all. Where you based?
you really need to get to a proper rotary comp tester just to confirm.
the trailings dont really do anything at idle in the scheme of things.
Have you driven the car again, like around the block or just had the engine idleing.
from your previous explanation it sounded like it had good dynamic compression but crap static comp
trailing plugs \'catch\' the bit of charge that get\'s trapped as the rotor passes the midway point - and helps provide a better burn for emissions. The engine will run on just the leading plugs with no problems and no appreciable loss of power.
Bit of a mystery as to why it\'s running better now.
Could a temporary oil shortage cause something like this ? The oil is used to help build compression, if the premix/oil injectors or eccentric shaft oil jets fail to provide enough lubrication it might have given symptoms like that possibly ?
There\'s only one way to know for sure, but a full compression test is cheap enough and will give a good indication of whether you need to pull it apart or not.
Im based in Cheltenham, Gloucestershire, and I dont want to drive it to our clueless local Mazda garage as they wont know what they are doing.
Really need a rotary comp tester.
But either way, for both rotors to sound/idle identical (to all 3 of us, and the other two people were an RAF mechanic and an aerospace engineer) when pulling off 1 leading plug at a time, rings some alarm bells, as for both to be that equally fooked, considering there are 3 tips on each, and the car is good enough to start pretty much first turn hot or cold, seems a bit unlikely.
The way the idle got better and worse so suddenly was odd too for a mechanical issue.
Its a mystery, but deffo seems like no1 job would be to borrow a rotary comp tester of someone.
speak to Jit on here,
he has a genuine mazda tester and dosn\'t charge the earth, he\'s done a couple of cars for me and i\'m sure he wont mind traveling over to you.
i dont think anyone will be willing to lend out a compression tester tbh
I never intended to step on someones enthusiasm for wanting to get more hp,im sure you(stav) is a great guy in life only thing that pee\'s me off was the quote
"so it probably will be the spinning wheels of unreliability once again, lol."
as im always being asked how many miles i get outta my rotarys befor rebuilding them and people honestly believe they are so unreliable! first thing people say is that! and these quotes only add to that internet missinformed jungle out there!
think about it though rob........how many turbo rotary engines make it to 100,000 miles, i cant think of one.
The compression ends up to low or most likely the seals fail.
Now compare that to most performance piston engines, yes some will blow up but there are alot that will make 100k and still be strong.
Quote from: turbotoaster;696554think about it though rob........how many turbo rotary engines make it to 100,000 miles, i cant think of one.
The compression ends up to low or most likely the seals fail.
Now compare that to most performance piston engines, yes some will blow up but there are alot that will make 100k and still be strong.
Meaningless comparison in the extreme. Why not compare rather more like for like and say "how many
1.3 litre piston engines put out between 250 and ~400 bhp and reliably make it even as far as 60 000 miles?". Then it may be worth wasting time typing out the question.....
well there you go, thats the issue right there.
People dont look at the engine size, they just know it as a rotary engine.
Or the people that think they know something call it a 2.6litre.
If we ignore the capacity.....alot will compare it to cars in its class........200sx, cossie, evo, scooby....a cheap turbo car, they see all these engine builds or problems and assume people in other cars dont always have these issues and blame the engine.
The question should be, how many sports cars putting out 250-400bhp make it as far as 60000miles?
Can we not have a debate, not till I fix this bloody thing anyhow.
The comment was in jest, the engine is just some mass produced lump, and neither are worth either the toys our the pram reply or this debate.
Comparing a rotary to a piston engine of the same size is totally pointless mind, as it shares absolutely no attributes, good or bad, to one.
Did someone call?! Sounds like chipped apex seals from the symptoms you described. I done one a few weeks back that had chipped apex seals on both rotors. started ok but was crap down low with fluctuating idle vacuum and the engine was visibly shaking.
Interesting Stav. As above, both rotors having chipped seals is possible... A video of it starting/running might help? As I said with mine it would start on the key and run fine, seemingly slipping out from being better (almost \'normal\' at some points) to very rough idle + revving..
I guess there\'s no way you could pull error codes off the fcon pro ecu? Actually just thinking it is a piggy back isn\'t it, so the stock ecu is in the car and you could still pull codes off of it.. Worth a try esp if its intermittent.
Jit- The engine certainly had a lot more movement than it usually does, but an engine thats missfiring etc generally does, so I didnt take too much attention.
Good point about the idle vacum- I totally forgot to check.
It does still sound mechanical then, damnit. Shame you\'re 90 miles away if you have a comp tester!
Ben- Good point about the video, I reckon thats a good idea, it does sound like your one did, and also how Jit describes too. Always thought about doing a walk around vid of the car, but never thought itd be when its fooked, lol. I\'ll do it tomorrow if all goes well, showing the gauges etc too. Cant do any harm at least!
And yeah, FCon is a piggyback as it uses the stock thing to run the OMP I understand. Its intermittant but never totally right, if you know what I mean.
When I shipped a seal it sounded exactly like your original description. Didn\'t have any issues starting mine up though but low rpms and idle was bad.
If the idle is back to normal it could conceivably have been a stuck seal that\'s come unstuck but I\'d guess that\'s a long-shot.
Yeah, that sounds like mine, by starting issues are gone, starts nearly as easy as ever now.
Heres a vid I did about an hour ago that might help diagnose. Best off watching it in HD as its clearer then.
Ignore how difficult it was to start, it had an empty tank id just filled with a jerry can, you can hear when it finally gets fuel as you hear the whirring of the pump.
Can hear the whirr at 7sec then it immediately fires up.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_z5XM1WOJQ
Can see the boost gauge fluttering, and the vac seems low to me, but it only flutters by 0.05 of a bar at most.
Read the description of the video for a low-down of my findings, or lack of, so far.
hnmmm i watched the vid and its not really like mine when the tip went... sounds more like a stuck seal...
tried the water flush?? people in america do it to unstick seals and clean the engine, litre of water in a jug, vacume hose in to jug of water, raise the idle to like 3k, connect vacume hose to the inlet mani and let it suck the water through... making sure you keep the revs up...
Seems comparing it to a few mates piston engine cars, 0.4bar (5-6psi) vac cold idle, like I got, is about the norm. Can anyone tell me what their rotary gets?
Never heard of the water flush, but ill try whatever, got any links to people doing it?
Water flush is a way To de-carbon the inside of the engine, Basics its just like an internal steam clean. Boosts compression a bit aswell. Sea foam is what they use as well for a stuck tip. rx7club . com is where its all at.
Keith
Quote from: TRIND-FD;696882Water flush is a way To de-carbon the inside of the engine, Basics its just like an internal steam clean. Boosts compression a bit aswell. Sea foam is what they use as well for a stuck tip. rx7club . com is where its all at.
Keith
http://www.rx7club.com/showthread.php?t=815578&highlight=steam+clean
Try this one
Seafoam would be my choice - but you were running water through the engine as water injection - so carbon buildup shouldn\'t be too bad.
Looks like the boost gauge is showing a distinct \'wobble\' - which is often seen with apex seal damage.
Just had a look on the engine, dont seem to be an easy place on the inlet manifold that would distribute water to both rotors. Im sure i can sort something, but its not exactly flush with vac ports.
In a dream world this is what happened, but due to me using water injection anyhow, it may be wishful thinking.
Might still have a go if not got hold a of a rotary comp tester by then.
If my sums are right, its showing 8.9in to 14.8in of vac in the vid, but mostly on the lower end of the scale, and 15 is about right for a large street port it seems.
Wouldnt a post throttle inlet leak make the vac far lower too though? As obv I been running 1.5bar boost, so things like gaskets and pipes do pop with that much pressure.
Maybe wishful thinking, but I dont wanna remove and dismantle an engine if I dont have to!
Bloke on RX7Club said this, and he may have a point...
you have a dead seal, it is easily apparent in that evened out dead spot sound during cranking[/b]
Did these vids jus now, the woosh tests...
Front rotor-
YouTube - Woosh testing the front rotor on my RX7.... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OoUWrM3ojfg)
Rear rotor-
YouTube - Woosh testing the rear rotor on my RX7... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLwCSpfuoLc)
Both rotors-
YouTube - Its a rotary steam engine.... All plugs out woosh test. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t4_CJt9Spr4)
Quick update...
With the help of the incredibly helpful and knowlegable Ben Lewis, we took my engine apart today to assess the damage...
Yup, bit of an apex seal came off...
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/1003/monkeymagic/DSC00138.jpg)
Thing is though, it didnt touch the housings at all! Not a mark on them! Its all fine. Woop. Maybe running 1.5bar and 660cc of water blew the seal out before it hit anything, lol.
Had solid corner seals too (ie no rubber bit in middle), 3 piece apex seals, uprated oil pressure regulator, and so on too.
After a day cleaning and stuff, this is how it all looks now...
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/1003/monkeymagic/DSC00146.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/1003/monkeymagic/DSC00174.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/1003/monkeymagic/DSC00186.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/1003/monkeymagic/DSC00194.jpg)
We did a VERY interesting side by side comparison of stock FC versus stock FD versus my ported FC housings and irons too, but I guess thats a seperate thread all together if anyone cares...
Looks clean inside.
I\'d be interested in your comparison of the engines and porting. I\'d also be interested to see which rear iron you\'ve got - as there are 3 or 4 variants - they differ around the oil pedestal. Do wonder where you\'re bit of apex seal flew off to - likely it came out of the exhausts - so probably worth checking the exhaust turbine wheel to see if it nicked a blade or two on the way out.
On one engine I lost to detonation, part of the apex seal was buried in the rotor face !
thats good nothing else has been damaged with the chipped seals, should be an easy rebuild, just new apex seals,springs and water seal kit and a way you go.
+1 for pics on the comparisons of the different ports
Yeah very lucky really it didnt scrap a housing, we was amazed really. And yup, took all day, but they cleaned up VERY well!
Shall I start a different thread about the ports? I know people are dead secretive about their ports, but I dont give a monkeys, a lot more to rotaries than port size and shape, so ill share the love.
yes please do start a new thread be good to see how the Jap tuners port the FC plates as the FD ports are taller
Put up another thread with your ports, I think it only the tuners who dont show theirs, unless you look over in Australia and they show you how to replicate their ports and give advice :rollin
You\'re welcome Stav, very productive day.
Really amazed at the lack of damage to the housings, and the build quality of the engine. Not needing the ports matched on another housing is a big plus.
Interested to see what you decide rotor-wise.