Well im going to be completing my rebuild in the near future. Thing im stuck on is which apex seals to use. The motor will be ported with scope to run a medium size single (T04Z maybe), but initially will be running stock twins.
oem, pts, ecp, hurley etc etc. What are your experiences, reccomendations and thoughts?
There are a lot of mixed views on them all so trying to find out as much info as possible.
Cheers Adam.
How about Mazda 3mm seals? Or maybe ask Meester Hayward, I hear he is making them from Kryptonite (well,summat like that anyway).
We are stocking the bendy seals and running them on our own engine.
Quote from: Bob Monkhouse;681379How about Mazda 3mm seals? Or maybe ask Meester Hayward, I hear he is making them from Kryptonite (well,summat like that anyway).
Ooooo i didnt know you could get 3mm mazda seals. I take it they still break under det though rather than bend like others do.
Quote from: AtomicRex;681381We are stocking the bendy seals and running them on our own engine.
Ah cool. Whats your opinion of them? which ones are you using and how are the housings holding up to them.
Cheers Adam
They are the east coast seals, so plenty of people running them with no problems what so ever :)
3mm seals are kinder to the rotor housings...but you need to find someone that can machine the slot accurately! And as you point out...if they go, they can potentially score the housing. Not as bad as ceramic :o
Quote from: AtomicRex;681397They are the east coast seals, so plenty of people running them with no problems what so ever :)
3mm seals are kinder to the rotor housings...but you need to find someone that can machine the slot accurately! And as you point out...if they go, they can potentially score the housing. Not as bad as ceramic :o
Whats their resistance to det like compared to that of oem seals?
3mm OEm seals can be found on RHDJapan.com
Ceramics courtesy of Carl Hayward.
If I remember correctly, ceramic seals are £200 each, though I hope I\'m wrong!! Rotary aviation in the States do 3mm seals at around $200 a set- I think- but we ended up with Mazda 3mm seals in Grants car as they were difficult to obtain.
You might be better either speaking to Atomic Rex or Carl and get expert advice and go from there.
Please note 3mm dont seal as well as 2mm, you get better compression with 2mm imo
3mm can seal just as well as 2mm if you build the motor right with right tolerances.
As for revs 2mm are better for higher rpm,but we have run 3mm to 11,500rpm so far.
I speak from experience and not internet viewing.
Regards
Carl
Carl do you have a Dyno prints you can share from two engines with the same ancillaries 2mm Vs 3mm seals, be interesting to see if there are any power differences?
Compression can be in the same with either seal if tolerances are worked correctly.
And that is really the main criterior for these engines.
Ceramics give lower compression but wear very well in fact on one engine that was running around 430hp after 36,000 miles on ceramics there was NO measurable wear!
Our own designed apex seals are two piece as per Mazda and we can make 2mm or 3mm.
Het Mark,you must have a load of different dyno figures for various seals including Hurleys,Mazda,PTS,and of course differing compressions,what are your results with exact like for like motors and turbo\'s?
Regards
Carl
LOL Na no Dyno Comparison sheets Im just an internet Viewer as you say, you are a person who builds the engines so hence why I asked if you had any dyno figures for comparison.
I only drag race the things doing 10 second 1/4s, so my interest is there any benefit of having 3mm seals over 2mm in terms of performance. And from speaking from people who have engines built with both, most people go for 3mm due to slightly offering more strength and protection to DET. I was under impression that 2mm offer better performance due to less friction and weight and inherently better sealing.
Hence why I asked if you had any direct comparisons in charts to see if all this theory is true in practice or not.
Quote from: BlitzBoy;681533Please note 3mm dont seal as well as 2mm, you get better compression with 2mm imo
As someone who isn\'t particularly knowledgeable on tuning rotarys, I find it strange that larger seals-ie. 3mm over 2mm- are actually better because larger/thicker/deeper on a piston engine means less revs and therefore less power.
My main expertise is(well was until someone tried to murder me), two strokes. You want a two stroke engine to rev you have to go for thinner rings or shorten the stroke due to piston accelleration.(though the same applies for 4-strokes).
An example of this would be the Villiers 210 used in Karting. It had an horrendously long stroke(70mm I think) and when you did the figures for things like mean piston speed(max 4000/min) and piston accelleration(max 160000ft/sec) this engine would be right on the limit for both and therefore used a .6mm ring.
Most engines are quite comfortable with 1mm rings at high RPM\'s so this is where I find everything I\'ve learned over the last thirty odd years goes out the window when I find that bigger is(well sometimes)better, though detonation in a two stroke would mean a large hole in the piston.
The rotary engine its-self I find fascinating though I am along way from understanding the sodding thing!!
Quote from: Bob Monkhouse;681638My main expertise is(well was until someone tried to murder me), two strokes. !!
haha you make me giggle always when you write stuff like that. :cheers
In terms of performance\\reliabilty Mazda went with 2mm Fibre ceramics in their high reving 26B 4 Rotor.
The main benefit I can see is reliabilty of a thicker seal in being a bit more robust to det in a Turbo engine.
I think the technology in the latest 2mm seals from Mazda and bendy seals from other manufacturers negates the need for 3mm IMO.
Unless someone can show me big major advantages in 3mm seals and the extra cost milling out your rotors I will stick with 2mm.
This is a good discussion lets keep it going
When I say someone tried to murder me I\'m being serious!!! I have a rather large hole in my skull where some ....er ran me over (that would be deliberately),he tried to do it with a hammer first and when I took that off him he used a car(soft .......), took him seven attempts though, I take some killing!!!!!!
I have 8 titanium screws in my head and, with all the gold teeth I\'ve got I\'ve been sorely tempted to weigh my head in for scrap, I can manage without a brain(been doing that for over 50years so I wouldn\'t miss it) though I\'m not sure how I\'d eat my tea!!!!
QuoteI have 8 titanium screws in my head
Would they be 2mm or 3mm screws then.........................................one piece or two
Quote from: HaywardRotary;681558Compression can be in the same with either seal if tolerances are worked correctly.
And that is really the main criterior for these engines.
Ceramics give lower compression but wear very well in fact on one engine that was running around 430hp after 36,000 miles on ceramics there was NO measurable wear!
Our own designed apex seals are two piece as per Mazda and we can make 2mm or 3mm.
Het Mark,you must have a load of different dyno figures for various seals including Hurleys,Mazda,PTS,and of course differing compressions,what are your results with exact like for like motors and turbo\'s?
Regards
Carl
How much difference in compression can you see using different seals and setups. Would you aim to lower the compression of an engine to allow higher boost levels to be run safer than that of an engine with higher compression?
Quote from: BlitzBoy;681644haha you make me giggle always when you write stuff like that. :cheers
In terms of performance\\reliabilty Mazda went with 2mm Fibre ceramics in their high reving 26B 4 Rotor.
The main benefit I can see is reliabilty of a thicker seal in being a bit more robust to det in a Turbo engine.
I think the technology in the latest 2mm seals from Mazda and bendy seals from other manufacturers negates the need for 3mm IMO.
Unless someone can show me big major advantages in 3mm seals and the extra cost milling out your rotors I will stick with 2mm.
This is a good discussion lets keep it going
What seals are you running buddy?
Cheers Adam
Quote from: BlitzBoy;681644In terms of performance\\reliabilty Mazda went with 2mm Fibre ceramics in their high reving 26B 4 Rotor.
Did they not also have ceramic coated apex springs due to the increased wear
on the the normal metal springs from the ceramic seals?
Did Mazda also do a 2 mm 3 piece seal? Would these give a better seal over the 2 piece ones?
Quote from: Grant Monkhouse;681657Quote from: BlitzBoy;681644In terms of performance\\reliabilty Mazda went with 2mm Fibre ceramics in their high reving 26B 4 Rotor.
Did they not also have ceramic coated apex springs due to the increased wear
on the the normal metal springs from the ceramic seals?
Did Mazda also do a 2 mm 3 piece seal? Would these give a better seal over the 2 piece ones?
Get back to work, spending time putting posts up on this forum does not earn you money.ps. tea is nearly ready so don\'t be late home!!
Quote from: johnf;681649Would they be 2mm or 3mm screws then.........................................one piece or two
Dunno as I might have been present when they put them in but I wasn\'t watching.! When asked if I could have one for the kids i was told \'Certainly not, they are £150 each, don\'t you think we\'ve spent enough on you\'.(3 brain ops at 15-20 Grand a throw)!! Tightwads.:Hammer
Being serious now, (just for a change), high revving piston rings are - in Jap bikes anyway,- cold drawn wire then chrome plated, Italians tend to use heat treated cast iron though extremely thin ones are wire anyway. Dunno what apex seals are, maybe an austenitic ci though again I\'m guessing. The sideseals are ci, I know this cos I broke one- der!!
Quote from: pigeon;681653How much difference in compression can you see using different seals and setups. Would you aim to lower the compression of an engine to allow higher boost levels to be run safer than that of an engine with higher compression?
What seals are you running buddy?
Cheers Adam
When talking about compression its the combustion chamber size (and not the seals) that is important.l Different types of seals \'bleed off\' compression at lower rpm\'s, at high rpm they should all seal the same, I think the important thing here is how much detonation a particular type of seal will withstand as that is what is the main enemy of the rotary engine.
Quote from: Bob Monkhouse;681667When talking about compression its the combustion chamber size (and not the seals) that is important.l Different types of seals \'bleed off\' compression at lower rpm\'s, at high rpm they should all seal the same, I think the important thing here is how much detonation a particular type of seal will withstand as that is what is the main enemy of the rotary engine.
Are there any means to lower the compression of a rotary to enable higher boost to be run.
But yeah thats what im really after finding out. Sure bendy seals wont wipe out your housings and rotors. But can they handle as much det as oem seals before they let go.
there are different compression rotors to choose from throughout the series of cars that have had the 13b in them. Im sure if you google it they will come up.
People also make billet aluminium rotors in the states and im sure they would be able to manufacture them with which ever compression rotors you would like, however they are very expensive and for race use only!!
The only way to lower the cr. would be to machine the combustion chambers out in the rotor, however I don\'t think you can do this on the Mazda rotors. The other alternative is to use billet rotors, you can then have whatever cr you want.
Again, however, the rotary doesn\'y utilise high boost like piston engines, more high volume(the only analogy I can think of is jet engines, in the \'60\'s, jet engines were high pressure,low volume and the engines were long and slim. Modern jet engines are the other way round,ie. High volume low pressure. You can see this in the size of modern jet intakes).
This is why a big turbo on say, a Skline, would be a small turbo on a rotary, I think the rotary will run 20%+ bigger turbos than a piston engine. Also you have a very long inlet period on a 4 stroke(270degrees+) whereas a rotary has around 90 ish(someone who knows more than me will be able to quote inlet timings, I\'m not too sure on that one).
So, big volume, low(relative) boost= see yer later Mr Skyline/impreza/chavmobile!!
Quote from: Bob Monkhouse;681525If I remember correctly, ceramic seals are £200 each, though I hope I\'m wrong!!
£1000 pounds fitted! If they really are as tough as old boots, then the theory is you spend a lot less on engine rebuilds. It was a large wad up front, but the economics should make sense further down the line.
If you\'re out there Mr Hayward, I need to get that ECU re-mapped, second week of April suit?
Quote from: pigeon;681669Are there any means to lower the compression of a rotary to enable higher boost to be run.
But yeah thats what im really after finding out. Sure bendy seals wont wipe out your housings and rotors. But can they handle as much det as oem seals before they let go.
OEM seals dont handle det.
We have tested our seals under such extreme det that the Mazda corner seals broke and our apex seals were still fine and reuseable.
Our seals material are also kind to the rotor housings and do not create chatter marks or unusual wear on rotor housings. We can make 2mm or 3mm apex seals and 12a or 13b or 20b. in either case they are very strong!
Compression readings and compression ratio are 2 different things.
Regards
Carl
Quote from: damehyndman;681709£1000 pounds fitted! If they really are as tough as old boots, then the theory is you spend a lot less on engine rebuilds. It was a large wad up front, but the economics should make sense further down the line.
If you\'re out there Mr Hayward, I need to get that ECU re-mapped, second week of April suit?
That should be fine Dame.
Give me a call and we\'ll arrange.:WaveBye
Regards
Carl
Quote from: HaywardRotary;681819OEM seals dont handle det.
We have tested our seals under such extreme det that the Mazda corner seals broke and our apex seals were still fine and reuseable.
Our seals material are also kind to the rotor housings and do not create chatter marks or unusual wear on rotor housings. We can make 2mm or 3mm apex seals and 12a or 13b or 20b. in either case they are very strong!
Compression readings and compression ratio are 2 different things.
Regards
Carl
Sounds good. if your seals were to let go are they of a bendy nature of would they break?
Quote from: HaywardRotary;681819OEM seals dont handle det.
We have tested our seals under such extreme det that the Mazda corner seals broke and our apex seals were still fine and reuseable.
Our seals material are also kind to the rotor housings and do not create chatter marks or unusual wear on rotor housings. We can make 2mm or 3mm apex seals and 12a or 13b or 20b. in either case they are very strong!
Compression readings and compression ratio are 2 different things.
Regards
Carl
carl, these do sound great. what kind of price are they?? is there no disadvantages to these at all then?? did you run omp or premix??
Quote from: HaywardRotary;681819OEM seals dont handle det.
We have tested our seals under such extreme det that the Mazda corner seals broke and our apex seals were still fine and reuseable.
Our seals material are also kind to the rotor housings and do not create chatter marks or unusual wear on rotor housings. We can make 2mm or 3mm apex seals and 12a or 13b or 20b. in either case they are very strong!
Compression readings and compression ratio are 2 different things.
Regards
Carl
Mazda OEM seals are fine, in the drag car we only had one engine blow and that was when the eccentric shaft bent and took out the beraings, so nothing apex seal related. If you can run 160mph terminals with petrol on Mazda 2mm seals, why is there a need for After market seals?
I think the after market seal thing originates for 2 reasons, one because people can make them cheaper than Mazda, and then market them as super duper seals, purely to make money.
Secondly when someone wants an engine built, they think of them like piston engines and want to have \'better\' apex seals, much like better a pistons etc, that are actually justified in a piston engine.
Also you have \'tuner\' on here who is discussing it with a privateer. A privateer who has a 10 second car, being told what apex seals to use by a tuner that has never built a 10 second car, but is knowledgeable to designed and make his own apex seals and rotors!!
People should look at results, rather than falling into the trap of super duper this and that.....see something that actually is proven and do the same to get a fast car, dont listen to bullsh t, listen to proven results.
10 seconds is not everything Ross,how about engines that last for years as opposed to months or even day\'s or hours?
Also drag racing is not everything to everyone in this world.
Regards
Carl
We are able to offer to people an engine warranty that I think no one else in this business seems to want to equal. I think that say\'s it all really.
Regards
Carl
Quote from: karl_tate;682055carl, these do sound great. what kind of price are they?? is there no disadvantages to these at all then?? did you run omp or premix??
As yet we have no price for them yet as we are finalising that.
We only reccomend premix for dragstrip or track use,normal rod use it is not needed.
Regards
Carl
Quote from: HaywardRotary;68215410 seconds is not everything Ross.
Neither is 9 or 8 or 7.
Drag racing is not everything in this world.
Regards
Carl
This is an obvious statement, however I learnt a great deal going from 13 seconds down, and I remember you being very keen on drag racing and attending regular meets, even building tubbed drag car? What haapened? The realisation that you simply couldnt do it?
The driving of drag racing, is completely different to the knowledge that is gained from working out how far you can push an engine, building the engine for revs, mapping, working out suiatable a/f ratios etc etc.
So I would say that there is massive amount to be learnt from drag racing, imagine it just like a black dyno, and you tune the car to make more power, rev safely etc all on the black dyno.
Quote from: DRAGON;682162This is an obvious statement, however I learnt a great deal going from 13 seconds down, and I remember you being very keen on drag racing and attending regular meets, even building tubbed drag car? What haapened? The realisation that you simply couldnt do it?
The driving of drag racing, is completely different to the knowledge that is gained from working out how far you can push an engine, building the engine for revs, mapping, working out suiatable a/f ratios etc etc.
So I would say that there is massive amount to be learnt from drag racing, imagine it just like a black dyno, and you tune the car to make more power, rev safely etc all on the black dyno.
Yes but as i have said,how long do your engines last for the general public?
How long and good is your warranty?
Carl
Quote from: HaywardRotary;682155We are able to offer to people an engine warranty that I think no one else in this business seems to want to equal. I think that say\'s it all really.
Regards
Carl
A warranty is only worth it if the tuner doesnt use another variable to get out of the warranty.....as I have heard some tuners with these extended use, for example injectors failing etc.
So I can have an engine built by you, keep blowing it up (you wont know how) and you\'ll keep rebuilding it for free? The pesimistic would say, no you\'ll just blame something that cannot be proven.
Our warranty is 12months or 12,000 miles, and generally an engine (block) will be fine after say 100 miles, if an issue is there it will show itself pretty damn quick. An engine failure beyond this time will generally be due to a ancillary.
Quote from: HaywardRotary;68215410 seconds is not everything Ross,how about engines that last for years as opposed to months or even day\'s or hours?
Carl
Mine has lasted for 3 years of abuse at high power, power and relaibilty can be done, Im like having my cake and eating it :wiggle
Yes agreed Drag racing is not everything, hence why both of you guys are doing well in the drifting world.
Ross has proved stock seals indeed do the job but his very good tuning skills show he has very small amount of failures with stock seals. I went for my bendy seals to give me a bit of a safety margin if I fooked up my tuning when I start to crank up the boost.
Ross whats the quarter mile record with stock 2mm?
Your car is very good Mark,no doubt about it.
I like PTS seals too,just not the price,we have been developing our seals to improve products here and we are having great success too,also in circuit racing as well as drifting!
Regarding drag racing when we decide to seriously enter that arena I am sure we will do well too,but Rome wasn\'t built in a day as they say!
Regards
Carl
Quote from: BlitzBoy;682170Ross whats the quarter mile record with stock 2mm?
Not sure actually, good point.
Very intersting thread going guys, letkeep it up :D
Quote from: BlitzBoy;682170Mine has lasted for 3 years of abuse at high power, power and relaibilty can be done, Im like having my cake and eating it :wiggle
Yes agreed Drag racing is not everything, hence why both of you guys are doing well in the drifting world.
Ross has proved stock seals indeed do the job but his very good tuning skills show he has very small amount of failures with stock seals. I went for my bendy seals to give me a bit of a safety margin if I fooked up my tuning when I start to crank up the boost.
Ross whats the quarter mile record with stock 2mm?
How many miles have you done in these three years?
cheers adam
approx 12000 miles now
Quote from: johnf;681649Would they be 2mm or 3mm screws then.........................................one piece or two
hahaha fair play, first time ive laughed on the forum in 2 years
Quote from: DRAGON;682169A warranty is only worth it if the tuner doesnt use another variable to get out of the warranty.....as I have heard some tuners with these extended use, for example injectors failing etc.
So I can have an engine built by you, keep blowing it up (you wont know how) and you\'ll keep rebuilding it for free? The pesimistic would say, no you\'ll just blame something that cannot be proven.
Our warranty is 12months or 12,000 miles, and generally an engine (block) will be fine after say 100 miles, if an issue is there it will show itself pretty damn quick. An engine failure beyond this time will generally be due to a ancillary.
My point is this on the original thread. If you have Water injection det isnt a problem generally and therefore OEMS and 2mms are fine for up to 300- 400-500 hp? is this a reasonable statement?
What you write about warranties is very true. I can see no way in which a builder would rebuild an engine for free if it was blown up within warranty periods. However Carl has assured me that if he set the car up and i didnt mess with it then it would be honoured (if i get my next engine built by the good man)
I would love all the tuners to let me know how many engines have been rebuilt on warranty. Id guess <.1%.
My last engine which lasted 1000 miles and was built by tuners whos motorsport was their passion upon telling them it had blown you hear things from them like "it could have happened for many reasons" and "we CAN have a look at it" not "ok bring it down we will replace it for you" im sure ALL tuners take this line and i could see a few rebuild warranties per year putting em all out of buisness.
You also hear stories of experts getting out of a warranty by saying
"it blew cos your spark plug is corroded" not their fault. What it means is you have no chance and you may as well have a 5 year warranty or none as they mean the same thing in my eyes and experience anyway.
Warranties is a 6 of 1 half dozen of the other issue. When I was import and working on peoples cars I used warranty the cars personally as most warranty companies are useless. I\'ve seen people bring their cars to me after it\'s very clear they were shafted by other tuners. On the other hand I seen people leave my workshop on bone cold engines and go ragging the car like anything and the these are the same muppets who want you to honour the warranty on the car. Also had people claim they had issues and though it\'s nothing to do with work you done on the car because you\'ve worked on the car before they want to blame you for it. I remember one muppet I advised him to run no more than .8 bar .7bar of boost on a lightly modded twin turbo as it had a chipped ecu. he calls up a few months llater after I sell him the car saying the engines blow. I asked if he had tocuhed the boost controller etc he says no he was driving normal at the time and had touched nothing. In good faith I have the car transported to rxmotors for a rebuild I go down there and check the boost controller to see historic peak boost reached and it\'s 1.2 bar. I ask the owner about he claims ignorance. I rebuild it anyway. rxmotor advise him to replace chipped ecu with an apexi. I advise him of the same other warranty will be void. A few month later after the rebuild he calls again that teh engine has blown and wants it rebuilt under warranty. I ask him if he replaced the ecu he says no it\'s the same chipped ecu I said i\'m not rebuilding it and he called Clive and all sorts complaining.
There are soem right deceptive lying scum out there and it\'s not easy to to tell who\'s honest John from who\'s lying Tom. People have brought cars down to me to do work and the speedo is deliberately disconnected so when they sell trhe car it has low mileage displayed. Yes i\'m talking forum members.
The only engine I have blown mapping was one of mine which had 1300cc injectors get stuck at the time I did not know the over bored out 850 injectors were a known issue. As Ross said typically if there is a issue with an engine to do with the rebuild etc it will manifest itself literally straight away not 5,000 miles down the road. If it does pop 5,000 miles don the road that would point to something failing, maybe dodgy voltage to the fuel pump, maybe blocked fuel filter, maybe a 101 things.
rgds
Brian
Wow so theres one engine someone built under warranty (fair play to you)
I dont think a probelm may manifest itself straight away, what if you bought an engine with supposedly new housings but they are actually used? how could you tell after say 1000 miles?
what about Auxillary injection on det?
Quote from: DR SCHNITZEL;682274Wow so theres one engine someone built under warranty (fair play to you)
I dont think a probelm may manifest itself straight away, what if you bought an engine with supposedly new housings but they are actually used? how could you tell after say 1000 miles?
what about Auxillary injection on det?
Actually have rebuilt a few under warranty. There is definitely no one on or off this forum that can say I have never honoured a warranty I sold a car with. If you bought an engine with used rotors but paid for new the the person who stitched you up is a crook and deserves his just reward, but still the used housings will not unexpectedly cause the engine to blow, but I get your point. I\'m not saying it\'s all customers fault that\'s why I said its 6 of 1 and half dozen of the other. It\'s about trust. Remeber years back I had an old tII cab and took it to rotechnics for replacement clutch and other work. They called and gave me a price for two clucthes a genuine mazda one and some other one. i said I wanted a genuine mazda one fitted. I had a mate that got charged for stuff that was not done on his car by them sometime afterwards. he ended up going to rxmotors and they sorted out everything his car. So when my engine blew I decided i\'d take it to rxmotors too. They pulled the engine and advsie my clutch was worn out and showed me I said how can it be I only had replaced about 6 months ago. They said it\'s not a mazda clutch and they wear out quicker. I called rotecnics and they denied all knowledge. This is no way any reflection on rotechnics now, as this is over 10 years ago just giving an example that I too as a consumer have been shafted too. waht\'s the quest with aux injection and det?
rgds
Brian
Whilst were talking about Tim @ Rxmotors hes rebuilt 2 engines for me under warranty:Thumbsup!
Quote from: HaywardRotary;68215410 seconds is not everything Ross,how about engines that last for years as opposed to months or even day\'s or hours?
Also drag racing is not everything to everyone in this world.
Regards
Carl
blitz regularly uses his on the road and as long as i have known him always has driven to and from events as does many other serious competitors
On the subject of apex seals, our Grant\'s just bought a tarty c/f clutch for his old dad to fit, as he\'s going to be giving it a lot more pasty I was thinking of using some pie crust for tarty apex seals(hardened and tempered of course with a brown sauce coating- bit like ceramic coating but a lot cheaper). Would this be a good idea?
Meesta Bleetz(is it Mark?), do you ever drag race at York? I f you do me and Grant would like to come over and watch at some point. Let us know if you are ever in the frozen north, Bob and Grant.
on the subject of warranties....as long as its mapped by the supplying tuner and engine builder it could be given a warranty as long as your arm...i would have thought...coz it would just be mapped safe and at a low boost setting... (which is fine if you dont mind)........ Lets see how many tuners will give a warranty on an engine that has been tuned to 1.4 bar.......I know one that would!!!...it would be nice if there were others.....!
At the end of the day a tuner/builder should be able to back up his/her ability with a warranty...which in turm shows faith in their ability.
Ed the above is what carl told me, supply, fit, tune, warranty = good.
I have been done bad to i think but im letting that go and pass me by.............................................. but the next engine i get built and fitted. i want it explicitly written that my engine is covered against det and other failure with (no excuses) providing i have not gone past the bar limit or tampered without express permission. otherwise no sale.
When i got my car back from engine fitting and mapping 3k with year warranty. the receipt said (WARRANTY VOID UNLESS YOU FIT FUEL PRESSURE REGULATOR AND UPRATED FUEL PUMP) even though my injectors had high duties they werent mentioned ha. take money and instant warranty void!! hmmphh.
Water injection negates the need to use expensive seals because it supresses det to a certain extent 500hp + ? and is cheaper than expensive seals
ignore my error
On the subject of warranties, Grant got a written guarantee form Carl for 2years/24000miles. Carl told him that he could turn the boost up (a bit) if he wanted to but as the turbos(stock Mazda ones) are getting on a bit it might be wise to keep the boost to 1.2bar.
This warranty says road or race ,something I was quite surprised about. Race motors usually have no guarantee.
I was personally very impressed with the warrenty offered by Carl, I cant comment on other warrentys offered, but I will be discussing this topic in the same detail ( hopefully ) with the other tuners I am in discussion with.
I would say the best thing you can possibly do regarding a warrenty, is sit down with the guy that would be handaling your claim. and have a good chat about it. read through and discuss.
This is exactly what i have done over at hayward.
Now, I know from experiance that you need to look after an engine if its going to look after you, and if you want an engine to be reliable, you have to make sure it is happy to work at the strain you put it under. and this is all that Carl asks.
And I am confident both that I will take care of the engine in my car. And also that if a fault should occour Carl would look after it.
That is all you can ever ask for from a warrenty.
Now here is the bit I like...
Dan: To be honest, I enjoy driving my car, I want a car that I can take to a track, slide it around every cornder I can find, and bang it off the limiter for as long as possible with the most ammount f smoke havoc and noise as possible.
Carl: Good, we will drop the limiter slightly and ( a lot more discussion on modifications later ) and there you go.
Dan: and if i get half way through my track day and it blows up ?
Carl: Then you bring it to be with the recipts from the sparks oil and filters and we will get it fixed.
Dan: Even though you know ive been drifting it like a whore all weekend, and probably every weekend before that ?
Carl: Thats what we built it for.
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That was probably not the exact conversation.. but you get the point.
They know they can build an engine within its limits, and the engine will behave accordingly,
Of course, if you dont look after it, ad its got 6k old oil in it, and FDUKed sparks, or the maps been FDUKed, or runnign 2 bar of boost, there gonna know about it and your gonna get " I told you not to do that and you did "
But thats your fault. not theres !
Bottom line, as a person that knows very little about these cars. I would be happy to drive a car out of carls shop, make sure it gets its TLC, and drive it like its ment to be driven. Confident the engine will up to the task, and that if a mistake has been made it will be rectified.
But, if your not sold from my opinion. Go and find out for yourself.
You even get tea :D
Ohh and in reply to the original thread, ill be using hayward seals :D
what a nice theoretical conversation, i think ill use Carl from now on to be fair.
Like I said mate, I have never claimed an engine rebuild from the guy. However, Liek i said, all i can say is that after a weeks reserch into these cars, this is the 1st time ive actually felt comfortable and informed abuot purchasing and runnign now :D
Give him a call, he will talk your ear off. Although we had ben on the phone 10 mins before he invited me down and threw me in the bridgeported single turbo.
And if you do go down there, get him to show you the " apex hammer test " :D
Me and Grants just got back from Carls and I can now reveal what his new seals are made from!
He\'s making them from old wiper blades(the bit of metal that holds the blade stiff can also be used for a sideseal, you just have to be accurate when cutting them to size with a pair of pliers. I can guarantee the new rubbery seals work(I was wondering why they were called \'bendy seals\' and now I know!!
The only downside on running these seals(apart from not being able to see where we were going on the way back oop nooath as we used the wipers from Grants car) is that they do tend to squeak a bit. We are now experimenting on using Fairy liquid as a two stroke oil, I\'m fairyly confident this will cure the problem!!!
lol:Talking1
After working all night (well, a couple of minutes this morning), we have found that Fairy liquid does indeed stop the new seals from squeaking. However the car now looks like a bubble machine driving down the road.Obviously more experimenting needs doing.
You can be assured that we will not stop pushing the bounds of technology(and the truth) to bring you the latest on our highly technical research. As someone once said, \'Every bubbles passed its fizzical\'.