I bought an FD3 around 10 months ago as a weekend / track day car, and I’ve spent the last 10 months getting the car into the shape that I wanted it: BNR stage 3 turbos, clutch, fuelling, re-spray, suspension + bushes all round, mapping, v-mount IC, colder plugs, and so on. It had limited history, but was running 7.5 compression on both rotors with a recent receipt from a known specialist when I bought it - it\'s covered around 4,000 miles since then...
After a couple of sprint days I felt it was ready for a track session last Sunday at Mallory Park. To cut a long story short in the 5th session of the day it’s blown an apex seal (or two) as it sounds like a mixture between a scoob and a tractor, and has little or no compression below 2,500 rpm. A great shame as the car was performing very well indeed. As to why it’s gone I’m open to suggestions – it was on the third lap after lunch, and would have got a lot hotter in some of the morning sessions (and was not over-revved either).
This has left me pretty disillusioned about keeping the car. I checked EVERYTHING over, and had more than one known specialist advise me on the spec of the car, as well as work on it – but the engine has still gone.
Here’s my first question – can you build a 13B to run 400 bhp or so (fly) at around a bar of boost and use the car on track for several 20 minute sessions without it going pop? The engine only needs to cover 5,000 miles a year – including 4-5 track days, where I\'m obviously not going to drive like a granny. :yes I’m after a non-biased view here, and I know this is a rotary forum! With this type of use how long can a well put together 13B last?
I’d love to hear from those of you that run FD3 track cars – who built your engine(s) spec of them, porting, seal type, whether you use WI, etc….
I’ll start another thread about possible specs and options for a rebuild so I’m not asking for too much info with one post. Any comments would be most appreciated. I\'d rather not go back to a piston engined track / weekend car as the RX is so unique and fun......please convince me.:3Confused
Cheers,
Si.:guinness
If it\'s gone suddenly having been fine for so long I would think it\'d have to be something fairly catastrophic - especially if its gone through two seals at once.
Not being funny (and im sorry for sounding patronising!) but did you check oil level / keep it filled up all day? Pushing her hard on a track will use up a bit more oil than normal - couple that with hard cornering shifting it about in the sump could potentially lead to oil starvation? Either that or maybe the oil metering pump (OMP if you still have it installed) has failed? Were you running pre-mix in the fuel tank?
Failing that, the only other explanation I have is severe detonation. That would wipe out seals fairly effectively, but you would get a warning if you have a PFC, or if still standard ECU the ignition shoul retard to compensate IIRC.
HTH
graeme
Yep - oil level was checked right at the start of the day before the first session. Not patronising at all to ask!
I was not running pre-mix, and had not been advised to do so by any specialists I have talked to about the car.
I did not get any warning on the PFC - I would have thought if it was Det then it would be a mapping issue, and it would have gone in a previous session?
There are some pretty high speed corners at Mallory - easily 90+ mph.....
what about fuel starvation? were you running a swirl pot?
ooh - sorry for your loss ( seriously ) ... can feel for you as I hope to get out on track a little this year myself ................. and was hoping to do the obvious / what\'s required to the car and just get out there..... so this is a little worrying?! ;o(
I hope you get lucky with your next engine/ setup. sorry for your loss
I\'ll check what upgrades were made to the fuelling system by the specialist, I think it was running just an uprated pump, and rail + 1400 secondary injectors. There were no issues getting the fuel in when it was mapped at all.
Schnitzel - thanks for your thoughts.
My point is that if I persevere with the car then I want an engine that will last - otherwise the FD will be sold as is or with a 2nd hand engine, and I\'ll buy an evo for trackdays.
Whats was your fuel level on the last session btw?
Just under half a tank.
You never answered my 2nd question bud?
Quote from: fil_auto;667901what about fuel starvation? were you running a swirl pot?
I think when you do rebuild the engine, flow test the injectors, fit some sort of internal baffles intank or fit a swirl pot, Check the OMP components jets,lines,diagprham valves these components are failing more and more (a number of engines I know about have failed due to this) with age or delete the OMP system altogether and run premix.
yes i did? my post at 12:53?:confused:
I think the question on fuel starvation is that it does not really show up on a dyno, where as on a circuit going round corners you get fuel slosh to one side of the tank so may starve the fuel pump temporarily.
Anyone fingers crossed there is not much damage internally only apex tip seals
Sorry Suba buddy - missed that and thanks Blitz... you\'ve got where I was coming from.... ;)
Quote from: fil_auto;667901what about fuel starvation? were you running a swirl pot?
thinking thesame thing
Quote from: BlitzBoy;667957I think when you do rebuild the engine, flow test the injectors, fit some sort of internal baffles intank or fit a swirl pot, Check the OMP components jets,lines,diagprham valves these components are failing more and more (a number of engines I know about have failed due to this) with age or delete the OMP system altogether and run premix.
Quote from: BlitzBoy;667957I think when you do rebuild the engine, flow test the injectors, fit some sort of internal baffles intank or fit a swirl pot, Check the OMP components jets,lines,diagprham valves these components are failing more and more (a number of engines I know about have failed due to this) with age or delete the OMP system altogether and run premix.
I think this may be a good place to start in figuring out what went wrong. Sudden failure tends to fall under one of two categories. Running hot (no coolant) or no / low oil in the rotor housings.
As far as det goes, you\'re probably right re: engine going previously. But different things can affect it. Anything causing the engine to run lean can lead to det and/or pre-ignition. Crap fuel (unlikely but has been known to happen) can be causal factor.
Again, just throwing some ideas around. As bad as it is to pop, it may not be your or anyone else\'s "fault" IYSWIM
No worries Fil.
If the pump was not getting enough of a reservoir to draw from would this not have resulted in the car stuttering or hesitating? There was no sign of either?:3Confused
Thinking about this some more - I\'m pretty sure that it went after a very long high speed right hander, not sure if this makes any difference in an FD?
I do actually have it on video from inside the car - I can upload it later (you can hear me say to the passenger it\'s just gone). it\'s going to hurt watching it though.:2Rolleyes
trotter - I\'m not looking to blame anyone, I just want to know what experienced FD owners think, and trying to assess whether I should persevere with the car.
Actually - if I can find a logical reason why it\'s gone then I\'ll feel a bit happier about it, as I can re-build and make sure everything is sorted. I dont scrimp or cut any corners on any of the tuned cars I\'ve owned - if I did then i would not be so annoyed if it had let go. If it\'s just the case that tuned 13B\'s can blow rotors with no real reason behind it when they are pushed hard then I\'ll call it quits with FD ownership.
Fuel used was V-power, and the car has never had anything less in my ownership, and oil temps were around 90 degrees when out on track. cooling was via a PWR V-mount IC and Rad, so I can\'t see any problems there...
sounds more and more like warped seals if you are saying that it runs better after 2500rpm, of course we wont know until its stripped for certain.
Warping normally indicates\\caused by a faulty OMP system in some form or hot running from running a bit lean (the rear rotor always runs slightly leaner anyway)
you mention 1400cc injectors? which ones are they? Some injectors had probs...think it was the 1200s..not sure who makes 1400s
Quote from: suba;667987trotter - I\'m not looking to blame anyone, I just want to know what experienced FD owners think, and trying to assess whether I should persevere with the car.
Actually - if I can find a logical reason why it\'s gone then I\'ll feel a bit happier about it, as I can re-build and make sure everything is sorted. I dont scrimp or cut any corners on any of the tuned cars I\'ve owned - if I did then i would not be so annoyed if it had let go. If it\'s just the case that tuned 13B\'s can blow rotors with no real reason behind it when they are pushed hard then I\'ll call it quits with FD ownership.
Fuel used was V-power, and the car has never had anything less in my ownership, and oil temps were around 90 degrees when out on track. cooling was via a PWR V-mount IC and Rad, so I can\'t see any problems there...
sorry, that didn\'t come out right. I didn\'t mean in the "I want compo" sense, it was more from the point-of-view that you brought up that sometimes bad things happen for no real reason, which wouldn\'t exactly keep your faith in these girls!!!
Sorry for the confusion!! ;)
graeme
My bad - I meant 1600cc injectors....:Hammer
sorry to here about this mate, hope you get it sorted!!
as far as i know my OMP is working ok but i would like to run a bit of premix just in case (i dont mind some smoke and i love the smell). can anyone tell me what mix i should run and a good 2 stroke oil?
cheers
Quote from: tommy18;668251sorry to here about this mate, hope you get it sorted!!
as far as i know my OMP is working ok but i would like to run a bit of premix just in case (i dont mind some smoke and i love the smell). can anyone tell me what mix i should run and a good 2 stroke oil?
cheers
most people run Millers KB2T at a ratio of 1:100/125 depending on mods
HTH
I\'ll bear that in mind for next time! Is there anyway to specifically test the OMP?
I think you can check on the commander if its workings ok
Quote from: trotter;668260most people run Millers KB2T at a ratio of 1:100/125 depending on mods
HTH
thanks
i run a single turbo, street port and the normal supporting mods and still running a OMP!
so i should be looking at 500ml of oil to 50ltrs of fuel?
seems like alot:burnout
Here\'s some footage from the session where it went - it\'s at around 8 minutes 50 secs going down the pitlane straight.
As it was not on cornering I doubt that it was fuel surge...
http://s11.photobucket.com/albums/a198/suba11/?action=view¤t=RXwentpop-web-Computer.flv
Quote from: tommy18;668326thanks
i run a single turbo, street port and the normal supporting mods and still running a OMP!
so i should be looking at 500ml of oil to 50ltrs of fuel?
seems like alot:burnout
yep, thats correct, I dump in a plastic juice bottle worth every fill up!
Quote from: suba;669106Here\'s some footage from the session where it went - it\'s at around 8 minutes 50 secs going down the pitlane straight.
As it was not on cornering I doubt that it was fuel surge...
http://s11.photobucket.com/albums/a198/suba11/?action=view¤t=RXwentpop-web-Computer.flv
well to be honest mate, you werent exactly flying in that video, so the engine wasnt getting a massive beating, if blitzboy says it sounds like warped seals which is caused from knackered OMP id go with that option.
Quote from: suba;669106Here\'s some footage from the session where it went - it\'s at around 8 minutes 50 secs going down the pitlane straight.
As it was not on cornering I doubt that it was fuel surge...
http://s11.photobucket.com/albums/a198/suba11/?action=view¤t=RXwentpop-web-Computer.flv
New link can be found here:
http://s11.photobucket.com/albums/a198/suba11/Track%20Days/?action=view¤t=RXwentpop-web-Computer.flv
I\'m not sure how to edit my previous post to make sure that the link works...
@toaster - I\'m not sure what you mean by beating? The engine was not being banged off the limiter, but was consistently WOT and 5-7,000 rpm.
sorry mate, only watched 2/3s of the video, when it blew there was a few seconds of full throttle, but seems strange to let go, did you have it mapped at reworx, ive heard from a few people that they map a little aggressive but 400bhp isnt alot on a rotary so i doubt its that.
I can imagine if you were going for a top speed run it could blow but for how much WOT there was im suprised
As mentioned previously in this thread - I doubt it was mapping as the car had been fine for several sessions prior to that, with me being out on track for longer as well.
I\'m not really into pointing fingers on a forum, which is why I\'ve not mentioned any names - I\'m just trying to work out possible causes to make sure I get everything as right as possible when re-building the car.
Whilst I was not up the top end of 4th gear I had been from midrange to the top of the rev range for a good while - if you watch the video you can here it go at the end of the pitlane straight when I was in 4th gear, just before I go onto the brakes. Immediately prior to that I had been all the way through 2nd and 3rd gear, changing when the gong sounded.
I\'m a bit confused by your comment that the rotary is good for 400bhp - I know it is, but trying to get there on the stock twins running 2 bar boost on the standard ecu is not going to be reliable...
Quote from: suba;669239I\'m a bit confused by your comment that the rotary is good for 400bhp - I know it is, but trying to get there on the stock twins running 2 bar boost on the standard ecu is not going to be reliable...
That would seem to be asking a lot to me, but I\'m definitely no expert. I thought 400 on twins was pushing the upwards end of their envelope anyway, especially if they\'re blowing hard enough to give two bar :confused:
....it\'s true that engines tend to fail at the end of straights more than the start. It\'s that bit where you shut off but it\'s still loaded up and straining that puts them under sudden stress of destruction. Anyone who ever rode a tuned two-stroke knows to have a finger on the clutch when they shut off after WOT :( Like Trotter said, it might simply be that it was time on the engine, and no one cause will be found in isolation that you can look at and say "ahhhh, that\'s the culprit". More like a lot of everything all at once?
Quote from: suba;669239I\'m a bit confused by your comment that the rotary is good for 400bhp - I know it is, but trying to get there on the stock twins running 2 bar boost on the standard ecu is not going to be reliable...
well your only running 1bar of boost on aftermarket twins so id imagine the intakes would be lower that a set of stock twins. Hence it should be pretty healthy at that as your running an aftermarket ecu with proper mapping.
I meant 400bhp isnt alot for a rotary, people are pushing alot more than that and they hold together.
It could be its time but i cant imagine it would just let go for no reason at all, the americans are running up to 700bhp on stock blocks over there (only highway pulls and drag racing mind)
Ooops, sorry, confused myself there. Re-reading the OP helped, the 2 bar/400brake bit is for a hypothetical build, not your current tune. Soz :o. Still holds true that a lot engines will fill their gussets when you shut off rather than floor it, though
Intake temperature at a bar with the PWR V-Mount were under 30 degrees...no issues there at all!
yeh exactly what thought, in theory the engine should have been bullet proof, so have to wait till the engines apart to see if its warped seals from lubrication, would suck if it was, just have to run premix in the future i guess for the extra safety when going on track.
there is the option of a injector went faulty, engine ran lean and went pop
I\'ll certainly get up some pics when the engine comes apart. i doubt it would have been a faulty injector, as the 1600\'s were only a few months old...
i know from doing some track days myself, the oil and water really heat up, and you may have guages saying all good but i had faulty sensors on my car but i replaced them all before i tracked it, only reason im sayin is that i thought i heard the coolant buzzeer sound. more likely to be fuelling, but the answer lies inside the engine
It did sound - but telling me to change gear rather than low coolant!
OMP?? Just a thought - not sure if it\'s be mentioned before? I take it you weren\'t running premix? Could have been oil starvation or the like?! Just food for thought?
Hope you get it all sorted pronto....
ATB Phil...
I was not running pre-mix on the day, it has been mentioned earlier in this thread.:)