OK, well ive decided to copy my project thread so liam and anyone else can have a read, been meaning to do this for a few weeks but never got around to it, im hoping for as much advise as you guys can give me and hopefully this will be alot of fun.
Right lets start at the beginning, after looking around for ages to get myself my next car i get myself a budget of 3-4k for something.
My criteria was that it would have to able to take a good thrashing and i didnt have to watch the rear view mirror for smoke everytime i put my foot down(5yrs of running a 12sec r5 turbo)
(http://img258.imageshack.us/img258/4536/s4300006.jpg)
so i was left with an evo 4, and rx7, 200sx and a r32 gtr.
After thinking, well how fast do i want to go and at what point with would i be happy i had enough power i sat down and thought, well my 5 was 325bhp/ton and i want to go faster than that so im looking at 450bhp evo/200sx, that will cost a fortune and will only match my old car.
I then did some more research on the gtr, at 4k im looking at the very bottom end of the market and id again need 470-480bhp to match it, skyline tax is pretty bad and id need at least injectors, turbos etc to get that.
So finally i looked around and after watching many a youtube video and also alot of initial d i realised the best handling and cheapest car for big power was the rx7.
So basically lived on beans and noodles to try and set myself a decent timescale to get the money together, i then started to look at cars.
Eventually i found one in derby, pics look good and was decently priced at 3k
(pic below)
(http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/1526/201612.jpg)
when going to see the car i marvelled of how good condition it was, not a spot of rot, with it coming into the uk in 2006 and only done 55k it was worth it, i knew the clutch was on its way out, but compared to 6k for some of the others id seen i thought it was a bargain.
Well a few weeks later it developed a water leak, because of the undertray and the cramped engine bay i couldnt work it out where it was coming from, since it only did it after driving for about 10mins i took the guess that it was coming from the overflow on the AST, so i blocked the overflow and took it for a very steady drive for 5mins, looked underneath and no water, thinking i had cracked it, i headed home and pulled outside only to be greeted with an bang under the bonnet
(im sure you can guess what happened)
The plastic AST exploded! So im stuck with a problem, OK, ill just bridge the between the 2 hoses using a hollowed out pen as it seems to fit the bill and people on the forums say they run without an AST anyway.
So drove it around for a few days, everything seemed fine, even had a couple of 160mph top speed runs...seems people on the forums were correct(http://www.fduk.org/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif)
Anyway came to my car one morning only to see it surrounded by water, popped the bonnet to see my main waterpipe to the top of the radiator has exploded during the night, ribbed it literally in 2 and i find its my main water hose that was leaking that caused the leak but because the water ran to almost the other side of the engine bay before dripping onto the floor it made it hard to work out it was from there.
A call to WGT to see if he can get one for me, he says he will get one ordered, we after waiting a few days and getting panicky as its my daily driver for work i ring him again to see whats happening, after some research mazda have told him that part is not currently being made anymore, the company mazda used to have make them has gone bump so thats it.
A search of ebay i find a guy selling them blue silicone ones for £29.99 for the set and he only lives 10mins from my house, beats £50 for rubber ones from mazda!
After fitting them i dashed up to WGT to get a metal AST to save the same issue happening again.
Well after a few months i decided i wanted more power so installed a set of second hand HKS filter kit i got cheap(£70) from carl at harward.
Then a month later i fitted a xspower cooler(£120) with the idea that id build some ducting in the future after fdash\'s decent results with his so the engine bay looks like this.
(http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/8094/dsc00084rw.jpg)
A few weeks after i decided the clutch really needed to be sorted, i could drive the car but as soon as i put my foot down it would slip madly.
Talking to pip again we discussed clutches and i went for a stage one uprated exedy clutch thats rated for 340ft/lb which i thought should be enough to keep me going for a while.
While i was in for a clutch i got the chance to watch and film this monster being mapped
(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg207/jantorep/IMG_00701.jpg)
Well from this point i was pretty happy with the car, drove really well and was alot of fun, though there was no camber at the front and would understeer at the limit so i decided suspension would be my next port of call.
After asking a fellow fduk member(mattie) about his suspension he offered me his set, only been used in the dry and hardly done any miles, pretty much like new for £300
(http://photos-c.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs167.snc1/6255_129478376656_643856656_2800204_2580578_n.jpg)
so after fitting them and messing with the dampering and ride height i noticed alot more grip on the front end by gaining camber, first test was the local roundabout that i used to understeer around, well a big second gear sideways moment definetly told me the front end gripped better!
Looks alot better aswell
(http://img32.imageshack.us/img32/7223/p25090912120002.jpg)
So this brings me up to the more present time.
NOW THIS IS WHERE IT GETS INTERESTING
My water seals had been going for quite along time, so i just kept topping the water up but it finally got to the point of no return so i was left with a non-running rex, luckily i knew this would happen eventually so i had been saving for quite a long time in the event id need to get my wallet out.
Now im sure you have been browsing ebay and seen the advert for the rx7 rebuild guy, well i decided to give him a ring and see what he had to say.
Now what can i say about this guy, most companies ive ever called in the past cant get you off the phone quick enough but steve rivett was completely the opposite, if you call him you best have a good 1hr of your life free to talk.
We spoke about everything rotary from the simple stuff to everything complex, never have i met a guy so passionate about what he does, or infact so honest. He told me about the first 2 engines he built that didnt even last 500miles because of mistakes he made while he was learning, that spoke to me about how open he was, i would never imagine any other tuner tell you about there ....ups! He is a retired engineer and only started this because his son is a racecar driver and owns a rx7 trackcar.
So after a long chat i decided to take my car down there, upon arriving im surrounded by other rx7s that hes working on, he borrows a garage from a friend in return for looking after his rx7(also owns a f355 and f40!), this was all very grass routes stuff and i like the personal touch he gives.
Anyway, we begin talking about what he will be doing to the car and what i want from the car.
This is the point where we sit down and have a good think, realistically how much power do i truely want, what level will i need to be at that ill never want anymore, i come to the conclusion that 500bhp should be enough.
So he shows me this tools and we talk about porting, he owns a set of racing beat large street port templates and shows me a current engine he is in the middle of porting. We look at rjpartri dyno graph to see what he has done in the past.
(http://img200.imageshack.us/img200/7849/dyno22509.jpg)
this is on twins with 0.8bar of boost, as you can see its making good power up at 8k, if was even making decent power at 8.5k and from what ive read that means that the ports are quite large and are flowing well.
So since he has never built an engine that he knows is going for 500bhp we talk some more about the porting, using the templates to start him off, once he has done that he is going to push the porting a bit more than normal for maximum flow, also hes going to port my UIM, LIM and remove the secondary throttle.
Finally when building it back up he will fit a sump brace and fast reacting air temp sensor to help out in future mapping.
This now brings me onto where i have changed my goals for the project as you can see before i didnt really have a direction for the car.
I have decided to take the top speed record for an rx7 in europe, not just take it, but also break the 200mph mark, now this isnt down the autobahn where thats gonna be alot easier, this will be in england at bruntingthorpe.
After speaking to stav at redline he is willing to feature the car and take me to brunters.
Ill tell you about my plans in the next post, just need to save this one for the moment
The biggest thing about this build and the reason for the magazine interest is the budget, my goal is to hit 200mph for £10,000 including buying the car, which is something thats never been heard of before and that stav is a massive fan of.
ive been chatting to a guy on the ford forums called MADRod, he is pretty much the expert on everything top speed as he has had many attempts down brunters and his figures are always spot on when hes helping people.
He thinks i can do it with about 620bhp-650bhp as long as my powergraphs match my gear ratios, obviously if im making max power lower down the revs then ill need to change my diff.
so this brings me onto how im going to make the power
Good Luck with your project as I sure that not only our UK MRC members will be very interested in this along with myself but also our many visitors from all around the world,
To give you a Jap car bench mark to beat, Adrian Smith with his FenSport Celica upped his previous record of 205 MPH in his old Corrolla to 207 MPH just before Christmas
Keep us posted as I sure the slippery shap of the FD can better this just like Racing Beat did with their 242 MPH run at Bonneville
As much as i admire your enthusiasm and dont doubt that the speed you plan to reach is acheavable my only niggling doubt is wether you would be able to achieve this for £10000 or under.
The only way i can see this happening is if you manage to beg steal or borrow the parts that are required.
Hopefully you will prove me wrong and achieve your goals
now to make the power i want ill need a rather large turbo, since this has such a strict budget there will be no t51r or all singing and dancing rollerbearing turbo.
For this i had to spend alot of time looking at compressor maps, searching forums all over the world for ideas(not just rotary)
I finally came up with my turbo of choice, its a masterpower t76 turbo, the compressor wheel is the same size as a t51r spl/gt4202 which is rated for 1000bhp(or 750bhp rotary) but has a smaller turbine wheel which brings it down to 850bhp rated turbo(same as a t51 kai)
Now the kai does 550bhp at only 1.2bar of boost and on race gas and water injection ill be running around 1.6-1.7bar which should fall nicely into my 640bhp im aiming for.
this turbo will be coming from USA for $800 and is journel based with a divided 1.00 rear A/R
(http://www.partsexpressonline.com/cart/product_images/m/802304w__70693.jpg)
next thing to cover is the manifold, it will be roughly based in design on the HKS stainless steel one but the turbo will be slightly further forward in the engine bay so that the comp housing doesnt hit the strut top as the housing is much bigger than the t51s
This is going to be designed by a guy of passionford, hes done loads of turbo civic ones and they seem well made, plus hes not a tuner so no massive bill there, made in shed ftw!!
(http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/9462/ebp2gs1.jpg)
this is the design to get your heads around it as im not the best at explaining things.
ok now thats the stuff making the heat we move onto the stuff for cooling.
this is where i have used some of my ford and renault experience to solve this problem.
the ebay intercooler kit you see what gonna be my first option but after a long and hard think i dont think its gonna be good enough for my needs, now that doesnt mean ill be going out and buying a super dear v mount kit as i think thats not needed either.
so im going to design my own from using proven methods but not paying extreme prices.
for the rad im going for, im gonna use the ebay one we have all seen, now im sure some will sniff there nose at it, but its been proven to work on a trackcar driven very hard by a race driver and keeps temps fine so no real need for anything more.
so one of these will do me fine.
(http://i4.ebayimg.com/01/i/001/3b/8d/976f_12.JPG)
the intercooler will be in my next post
the intercooler took some thinking about.
now from the cossie days i learnt a fair bit about what coolers they run.
most of them run a 50mm core for around 500bhp, some of the bigger boys run a 60mm core with around 600bhp.
now you can get one with a 70mm core which the guys in sweden use when they bolt massive turbos on and think 600bhp is for the slow lane. these are rated for 750bhp and this is the one im going for.
Ive already got all the sizes of it and ive measured the engine bay and it fits, this is my drawing to give you an idea of how it will fit
(http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/5433/enginemockup.jpg)
now blue is intercooler, red is radiator and green is fans, the grey is the aluminum ducting which ill go all around the cooler so that no air is wasted and will then be forced through the rad aswell, this seems to work well on up to 700bhp cossie trackcars which get alot more abuse than this will. im sure you can guess what the other thing is lol
also it will be keeping a stock front end, the front opening will give enough air to the cooler as the ducting will make a funnel shape to the cooler, if air looses a few mph before it gets to the cooler it wont matter at 150mph+
ok fueling next
well ill be going with a power fc, its easy to tune and pretty versatile, yes something like a motec would be better but theres some big numbers being done over in the states and money is an issue.
Thinking about injectors i did some calculations and for 650bhp a rotary needs 5500cc/min of fuel(not 100% duty)
now ross at dragon and the guys at reworx both suggested i go with 6 injectors instead of trying to fit massive injectors into the primarys and secondarys as its alot harder to map.
im sure you guys know about trying to get a decent afr at idle with 850 primarys and having to put loads of injector lag to do it.
so we talked about maybe 6 x1000cc injectors, but then that comes down to budget again.
I was watching a guy in america running 9s quarters running a stock ecu with a peter farell piggy back ecu controlling extra injectors, he was pushing 550whp which is just the number im after.
i sat and thought about it a couple a nights ago and thought how can i do it.
it then came to me, i already have 2800cc of the injectors in the car at the moment, i only need another 2700cc and im sorted, both tuners recommended 6 injectors, so why dont i put 2 x 1600cc injectors in, that 3200cc worth of fuel, more than enough, watched a few videos of some monster rx3 and he was running extra injectors in his UIM and ive decided thats where they are gonna go, on the secondary port sides(outer edges) this means i keep my stock primarys for driving around like miss daisy, also keeps my afr while idling as normal and normal driving ill be ok
sorting fuel pump etc as we speak but i have a few ideas for that at the moment.
next up is the actual engine itself
You sure that turbo/builder\'s going to land you 640bhp? I\'m sure Ed will be able to help/sort you out there, the man knows a fair chunk about turbos- Though unfortunately the T88 that just went in classifieds would\'ve been your best option.
I\'m not pessimistic but like Lee, I\'ll be happy for you if you achieve it. The biggest problem I envisage is gearing, and secondly the true output of your engine.
now a stock engine isnt as bad as what people think, with a borgwarner s475 there is a guy in america that hit 700bhp on stock ports at 32psi on e85 fuel, he says 700whp but US dynos read a little high than here and a good estimate ive found is there whp is our fwhp
after chatting to blitzboy i went back to my engine builder to talk more about his porting, he spent all weekend researching to see how much further he could go, then spent monday increasing the size of the ports again, should be interesting as they are now exactly the same as these pics below and the info on what it should run like.
(http://www.rotaryheads.com/porting/images/big-street-vs-stock.jpg)
stock vs big port
(http://www.rotaryheads.com/porting/images/big-street-overlay.jpg)
overlapped each other to see the difference.
the info on this says:
Same as port style 1, but with advanced port timing. Gives awesome power through the midrange and spools turbos a lot quicker. This is the port where your idle quality deteriorates. A reasonable idle of 800-900 rpm can still be achieved, but you’ll notice some misfiring due to the extra port overlap. Vacuum signal typically between 14 and 16” @ 900 rpm. This port can be customized to your specification. Gas mileage either stays about the same or decreases slightly, but 20+ mpg on a properly tuned setup is still attainable, depending on weight, driving habits, etc…. stock turbo(s) is inadequate and should be upgraded. you’ll see the best results with an engine management system.
it also makes a lovely idle from the extra overlap lol
ok engine build pictures
engine out and bay looking a bit dirty!!
(http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/6765/getattachmentvt.jpg)
removed secondary butterflies
(http://img697.imageshack.us/img697/8619/throttlebody.jpg)
(http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/226/throttlebody3.jpg)
inlet manifolds
(http://img697.imageshack.us/img697/2050/inlet3.jpg)
(http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/7238/inlet2.jpg)
(http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/6046/inlet1.jpg)
throttlebody(http://www.fduk.org/forum/images/smilies/biggrin.gif)
(http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/2760/port4s.jpg)
engine plate porting
(http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/6660/inlet5.jpg)
(http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/7918/port3gp.jpg)
(http://img527.imageshack.us/img527/8237/port2e.jpg)
(http://img524.imageshack.us/img524/3117/port4.jpg)
(http://img696.imageshack.us/img696/7279/port10.jpg)
Housing ex porting
(http://img265.imageshack.us/img265/74/export.jpg)
nice housing surface(http://www.fduk.org/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif)
(http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/631/export2w.jpg)
engine ready to build(http://www.fduk.org/forum/images/smilies/cool.gif)
(http://img242.imageshack.us/img242/1327/unbuiltengine3.jpg)
(http://img697.imageshack.us/img697/6403/unbuiltengine4.jpg)
Engine block built(http://www.fduk.org/forum/images/smilies/biggrin.gif)
(http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/5305/enginebuilt.jpg)
(http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/9361/enginebuilt2.jpg)
bolt ons added for running engine in
(http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/6737/enginefully.jpg)
(http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/8375/enginefully2.jpg)
(http://img695.imageshack.us/img695/4381/enginefully3.jpg)
now im sure your wondering why theres still the twins etc on there, well thats because the engine needs running in and i havent got anymore money for all my big power stuff, since i dont need to suddenly make this top speed run im happy to pootle round for a bit while i get the funds together, working part time in a call centre means progress wont be lightning fast
spoke to racing beat in america about there car to get a bit more information, i had managed to find a bit about it beforehand but these few details helped.
i knew that he was running a 20b with 3 turbos as i saw the pics but wasnt sure on heat and charge cooling what had been done, so this is the email i got back.
\'Your question was forwarded to Jim Mederer, Racing Beat\'s co-founder and chief engineer, for review. The following is his reply to your inquiry:
Our Bonneville FD had a custom chassis with no part of the stock chassis. I made the driveline tunnel quite large to allow heated air to pass through. The entire car had a carbon fiber underpan bonded to the chassis. I used a 4" thick radiator to restrict air volume while maintaining high speed cooling. Intercooling was done with ice and water to reduce drag. I urge you to use a 4" to 5" high spoiler lip to obtain down force at the rear - critical for traction and stability.
Jim Mederer\'
i did contemplate a charge cooling setup and have a few links to some kits from US but im gonna stay with my original idea
ok while i was putting all that up i noticed a few people asked me some questions so ill try and answer the best i can
clive......thanks very much for the encouragement, things like that really help. i know adrian with 200.1mph with 650bhp, my car will have less transmission loses so that helps, also its alot more slippier than his, especially when i drop the car very low for the run to help with air traveling under the car.
lee mills.....i honestly dont think its impossible, ive never failed at anything in my life that ive put my mind to, if i thought there was anyway that this wouldnt work i wouldnt even make a start on it, the big difference between this build and alot of others i hope is thinking outside the box a little instead of going down the usual route that most people do
s3th.....the turbo aspect has been the thing that ive looked most closely at as that will make or break the car.
the t88 for example that ed was selling has a compressor average area of 7.58inches and a turbine of 7.577
my turbo has a comp of 9.7inches and a turbine of 6.65
so slightly smaller turbine but much bigger comp wheel which should still flow enough according to my research.
one thing i havent mentioned here aswell is that the car will be running pre-turbo water injection, im making my own kit aswell and it will be a purely mechanical system so no pumps involved, got this idea from a couple of guys in america doing it, one guy runs 23psi on pump fuel on a big turbo daily, the other runs 32psi on pump fuel and has 700bhp.
this design isnt mine but im using it to give you an idea how it works.
(http://img94.imageshack.us/img94/435/23319964.jpg)
very simple set up, good thing is, the solenoid will open at say 1bar(depends what i set it at) and the more boost you are running, the more water, so theres no need to fiddle with jet sizes once you have set it up to flow the right amount of water
also for clive...... if hes now hit 207mph he must have about 800bhp in that thing, thats out of my league, id run out of room before hitting that. theres an fc that went bonnieville with a 650bhp from a 13b and hes already up to 220mph but the car got a bit unstable on the salt so he couldnt go any faster, he said he will be able to when he gets the weight balance right, so its not all power, its distance i think with rx7s because there aero makes up alot over over cars
Although some Skyline boys have gone quicker then Fensport at the top speed set by a Jap car, I think its awesome a 4 pot went over 200mph in the UK
http://www.auto-power-girl.com/video-tuning/now-playing/202_mph_with_fensport_toyota_celica_gt4-1159
jesus, what distance does he hit 202mph, thats very fast!
s3th....i wont sort out gearing or anything yet until the car is dynod, i need to work out exactly where my maximum power will be then i can calculate the tyre and diff so that at 200mph im making maximum hp, i know ill need an auto diff, but need to know about my rpm range before anything else is worked out
Good luck mate.
Dibs on the interior when/if you pull it out :D....... no seriously, if you do I\'ll have most of it for another project so get in touch.
Loving this project mate, a proper target to hit rather than just dyno numbers!
Good luck! Be sure to tell us when you\'re eventually off for the run, would be an awesome day out. Could turn it into a big MRC V-max day?
Turbotoaster, could you inform me with your source for the electrical bits (solenoid, pressure switch etc) in the water injection setup?
I have been following this thread on rx7club.com as well and will be going this route as well. I just don\'t know where to source these things.
thx
Wow, a very ambitious project - hats off to you.
I\'d have thought Aero is going to be a major factor here - what aero mods have you got planned?
good luck toaster interesting project
You might find some useful info here, it\'s a thread about a standard bodied FD which achieved 196mph in a standing mile. Although it\'s not running a rotary engine maybe some info re the aero, gear ratios and levels of power required might give you some ideas.
http://www.v8rx7forum.com/showthread.php?57695-LS1-FD-and-GNX7-go-to-the-Texas-Mile-2009-event-to-run-with-the-big-dawgs!&highlight=200mph
there is a movie on youtube off a Swedish guy going 300km/h+ in an FD (rotary power)
I think he was running a Kai 51R turbo and bolt ons, different rear dif ratio etc
wow.. a very good read.
Like my email i do really wish you good luck with this! i dont know how far £10k will go but if you putting lots of research and calculations into thin and doing some of your own fabrications and own work then i dont see why it cant be done :)
did you consider going tripple rotor? or too much costs involved?
why street ports over PP or even bridge ports?
thanks for posting this up, will keep an eye out for further posts :)
I thought something looked familiar about this thread... I spot my old Dyno graph!!
That\'s the safe map on there - I\'ve got serious cooling and ignition breakdown issues when we pushed it higher (need to do something about having a std mount intercooler to bring temps down, and then have some fun with ignitors and coil packs...). We\'ve had it push more, but then time and again the ignition breakdown reared it\'s ugly head... Shame really as was starting to push more and more out of the twins but then I had to be stupid and propose meaning my money is now her money and the Rex is sidelined for a little... :(
Still, good luck! And I\'d say you\'re in pretty good hands with it. Surprised he never tried to persuade you to go for a Lysholm twin screw over the turbo though..
Quote from: Aubec;663405Loving this project mate, a proper target to hit rather than just dyno numbers!
Good luck! Be sure to tell us when you\'re eventually off for the run, would be an awesome day out. Could turn it into a big MRC V-max day?
well that would depend on whether redline would let me, i know that magazines run a tight budget and hiring it out for day isnt gonna be cheap, i suppose if everyone paid a certain fee to cover the extra safety people and hiring of the place he wouldnt mind, dont know if he would let you in the magazine though, ill have to ask him when i get closer to completition
Quote from: Speedworks;663408Turbotoaster, could you inform me with your source for the electrical bits (solenoid, pressure switch etc) in the water injection setup?
I have been following this thread on rx7club.com as well and will be going this route as well. I just don\'t know where to source these things.
thx
Im not 100% sure yet, if i follow his design exactly im thinking of getting the nozzle and solenoid from a nitrous supplier, i have a couple that im gonna contact for the best price, the pressure switch i can get from a usa w/i supplier ive bought from before. If i just use a jet like a traditional w/i kit i can get them from aquamist as they are only £5 last time i bought one, ill need to work out how big though as im only using 15-30psi of pressure instead of 150psi electric pump
Quote from: SiH;663410Wow, a very ambitious project - hats off to you.
I\'d have thought Aero is going to be a major factor here - what aero mods have you got planned?
no need to worry about aero, the standard rx7 is very aerodynamic, people have problems when they start putting splitters and wings on them, the car will be very low though to increase downforce, id never put anything on it unless i had a wind tunnel, and extra downforce is normally at the cost of drag
Quote from: L18M;663433wow.. a very good read.
Like my email i do really wish you good luck with this! i dont know how far £10k will go but if you putting lots of research and calculations into thin and doing some of your own fabrications and own work then i dont see why it cant be done :)
did you consider going tripple rotor? or too much costs involved?
why street ports over PP or even bridge ports?
thanks for posting this up, will keep an eye out for further posts :)
never even considered 20b for a moment to be honest, its not needed, the car doesnt have to have 650bhp+ everyday so you would be paying for street ability more than anything else.
I didnt go bridge because i decided to do this challenge after the engine had been built or pp because of cost
Quote from: Aceman;663450I thought something looked familiar about this thread... I spot my old Dyno graph!!
That\'s the safe map on there - I\'ve got serious cooling and ignition breakdown issues when we pushed it higher (need to do something about having a std mount intercooler to bring temps down, and then have some fun with ignitors and coil packs...). We\'ve had it push more, but then time and again the ignition breakdown reared it\'s ugly head... Shame really as was starting to push more and more out of the twins but then I had to be stupid and propose meaning my money is now her money and the Rex is sidelined for a little... :(
Still, good luck! And I\'d say you\'re in pretty good hands with it. Surprised he never tried to persuade you to go for a Lysholm twin screw over the turbo though..
he doesnt know about the plans for the car yet, he still thinks im going for 500bhp, i probably should ring him and let him know haha, im sure he will poop a brick and call me daft, still if i do it, alot of the praise will go to him for a good engine.
we spoke about your engine and i mentioned your trying to get past a standard sized cooler with water injection which is a bad idea as not only do you have heat issues but your then blowing your spark out with water, we both agreed that if you switch to a front mount you would be loads better and also move your w/i between the turbo and cooler for maximum cooling and hopefully will help with not blowing your spark out
very interesting thread mate and good luck with the challenge. I`ve got an old high octane dvd from nz filmed way back in `99. Option put together the fastest cars from Japan to try and break top speed record. One rx7 had a peripheral port 13b with t51r, 680hp. Even in the rain it did 327kph (203mph) coming second best to a 1000+hp skyline which did 213mph.
Only speed read the thread and it looks like fun.
Your water injection setup is interesting, probably worth chatting to Viking War Hammer on Rx7club.com . Also an interesting engine setup :
http://www.rx7club.com/showthread.php?t=808272
Shaun
Quote from: turbo boy;663500very interesting thread mate and good luck with the challenge. I`ve got an old high octane dvd from nz filmed way back in `99. Option put together the fastest cars from Japan to try and break top speed record. One rx7 had a peripheral port 13b with t51r, 680hp. Even in the rain it did 327kph (203mph) coming second best to a 1000+hp skyline which did 213mph.
ive got that one aswell, he did that speed in the rain with a 2mile stretch, slow start and longer braking distance was required so i think on a cold dry day i should be ok.
the car was also only semi-pp not a full pp, look for the option video of the same event as it gives much more info:evillaugh
he also does 710bhp at 2bar so that was maxing it out
sounds interesting and its great to see that you are attempting this and fair play to you.....the price for the t76...does that include shipping and taxes?.......I can supply these so gimme a shout when you are ready to order and ill be happy to see if i can help with the cost....i tried to get some more info i was sent on this turbo as its one of MP latest ones but ive blooming lost it now!!!.....what trim turbine wheel are you going for?.........
also i think your gonna struggle with the 1.00a/r size of the rear housing!.....I believe those turbos are compatible with the new tial rear housings...( again these i can get)...but they are pricey!
You might also struggle with the type of porting....I would have at least gone half bridge...considering your aims.....and the turbo you plan on using....that turbo is gonna spool late and if the engine hasn\'t been made to be a high revving one (ie rotors, porting, uprated seals etc)....you\'ll probably have a pretty narrow power band particularly with that size rear housing....but hey i could be and hope that i am wrong.
oh and i would chanGe the clutch now before the engine goes in....save yourself some money....it just aint gonna cut it dude!
Either way fair play to you.....and all the best.. i just think your budget will be a bit short
also speak to ant at sterte garage...they got 184mph on a bridged motor running a t51
I just had a read of this thread, Im running on a budget as well, I have basically all the bits I need to push my FC close to 500bhp and my spendometer has just ticked over 6k including the car :)
Will be interesting to see your dyno figures running the smaller T78, im bolting a T88 onto mine :D
Here is some wind tunnel testing on the FD:
http://autospeed.com/cms/A_108677/article.html
just on the side, i have a orc carbon pro clutch series 409 (with lightweight fly) going cheap. not sure if it would be any use for this project?
your right ed, the bar is set really high for this and im under no illusion that its gonna be a walk in the park.
ive been chatting to the guy whos doing my manifold and we have been taking about turbos again, i originally was gonna go with the masterpower but since the rear wheel is so small im unsure 100% whether it will flow enough.
I got all the details from manny at masterpower direct, hes a nice guy. was looking at the 1.00 divided 74mm turbine wheel with the 82 trim, he even said he would offer to value it at $100 to save on taxes;)
We have then gone back to my original idea of a borgwarner s475 ashe can get them for £600, but im trying to decide whether to go for a t6 or a t4 rear housing and which a/r to go with, i know this will be a bit of a lag monster but its only built for this purpose and after i can always downsize so something a bit smaller.
The t4 housing with the 1.25 or 1.10 makes the most sense as i can then change turbos easily in the future.
Are you saying because of the small rear housing that it will drop off to quick and that will make it narrow, i thought having a big housing would narrow the band because of the later spool?
I know a bridgeport would have been better but i hadnt fully decided what to do with the car when the engine was being built, the good news is the turbo will do over 700bhp on a stock port engine, so while it is laggy, the power potential is still there, ill prob drop down to something more streetable in the future anyway so not to fussed.
I think because the budget is so tight that it makes it interesting, anyone can build a £25k chequebook tuner car, this is to show that there are other options.
I might turn out to be wrong in the end but for the moment im confident, ive found theres a few people who are interested and prepared to help me which will make a difference.
Liam is helping with power fc and prob twinpower
rickylee from passionford is helping with turbo/manifold/wastegate/exhaust
steve rivett did me good deal on engine
reworx or dragon are helping with mapping
without people like this i dont think it could achieve this.
im happy to chat technical stuff till it comes out of my ears though:Giggle
m1tch....a t76 isnt what you think it is, its much bigger than a greddy t88, ill show you some tech specs when i get home from work
You not thought of running a twin turbo setup? not a twin pack turbo, but I know that there is a racing 13b running 2 GT4088s, 1 per rotor.
You going to stay with a 13B? if you PPed the engine then you could upgrade to a short block triple :)
there just isnt the money for that type of thing m1tch, i really wish there was but i work part time in a call centre, i bet alot of people assume im just tight or trying to prove a point, thats 80% of it, the other is i dont earn the sort of money a few guys on here earn.
Else id be running pp 20b with a gt47 turbo lol
Quote from: turbotoaster;663523your right ed, the bar is set really high for this and im under no illusion that its gonna be a walk in the park.
ive been chatting to the guy whos doing my manifold and we have been taking about turbos again, i originally was gonna go with the masterpower but since the rear wheel is so small im unsure 100% whether it will flow enough.
I got all the details from manny at masterpower direct, hes a nice guy. was looking at the 1.00 divided 74mm turbine wheel with the 82 trim, he even said he would offer to value it at $100 to save on taxes;)
We have then gone back to my original idea of a borgwarner s475 ashe can get them for £600, but im trying to decide whether to go for a t6 or a t4 rear housing and which a/r to go with, i know this will be a bit of a lag monster but its only built for this purpose and after i can always downsize so something a bit smaller.
The t4 housing with the 1.25 or 1.10 makes the most sense as i can then change turbos easily in the future.
Are you saying because of the small rear housing that it will drop off to quick and that will make it narrow, i thought having a big housing would narrow the band because of the later spool?
I know a bridgeport would have been better but i hadnt fully decided what to do with the car when the engine was being built, the good news is the turbo will do over 700bhp on a stock port engine, so while it is laggy, the power potential is still there, ill prob drop down to something more streetable in the future anyway so not to fussed.
I think because the budget is so tight that it makes it interesting, anyone can build a £25k chequebook tuner car, this is to show that there are other options.
I might turn out to be wrong in the end but for the moment im confident, ive found theres a few people who are interested and prepared to help me which will make a difference.
Liam is helping with power fc and prob twinpower
rickylee from passionford is helping with turbo/manifold/wastegate/exhaust
steve rivett did me good deal on engine
reworx or dragon are helping with mapping
without people like this i dont think it could achieve this.
im happy to chat technical stuff till it comes out of my ears though:Giggle
m1tch....a t76 isnt what you think it is, its much bigger than a greddy t88, ill show you some tech specs when i get home from work
See by trim i mean the size of the turbine wheel itself...not in relation to the compressor wheel.....eg most turbos are p trim rear wheels.....I know masterpower do gtq trim rear wheels...i know coz i have supplied a few....but im sure i read that a "r" trim was available...i can confirm with my supplier if need be?
the narrow power band would come from the fact that you have a big compressor wheel, small rear housing and small ports (in comparison to the turbo)....so the smaller ports would take the turbo longer to spool up but the restriction in the rear housing size and subsequesnt engine work would lead to a (lets say for example) 8k power peak. However if you did subsequest engine work you could raise your rev limit to 9.5k then you have more time for the turbo to build more power...this is coupled with a bigger rear housing of course.
s475\'s have good reviews...and are very capable....but please forget the american power figures!!!.....just look at figures people have made over here......ErnieT has over 700 rwhp according to the graphs....but has run a 10.5 i think, with a terminal speed of 130 something.....blitzboy has done that...but even he will tell you his power is not even 500rwhp.
From looking at what i can see from your pics of your ports i would worry about your side seals
What porting work was done on the inlet manifolds? Was it just smoothed out slightly? On my FC I am going to run with the FC inlet manifold as the 860bhp FC seems to be running OEM ones lol I refuse to get RE-A ones as they are ment to go on a cosmo, so I am interested in how the inlet manifold has been modded :)
You are going to have to be careful when driving round without any secondary butterflies lol
http://www.partsexpressonline.com/cart/products/TO4E-T%252d76%7B47%7D%22Q%22-Trim.html#
that link should work ed, and give you all the info you need
jaydee...well the car has done 800mile up to yet and seems ok, yes i know thats hardly any mileage but good news so far, the pics of the port arnt the ones of the actual engine, just ones he used for reference, he rotated the engine by hand and marked out the movements of the seals and then ported to them, cant remember the figure exactly but something like another 2mm and the seal would fall out, ill have to direct him to the thread.
the manifolds have been increased insize, not a massive amount i dont think, i never saw the engine in bits, just the pics he sent me as hes nearly 300miles away from me, havent really had any issues with no butterflies at the moment, but i stay below 3k for the moment anyway as the engine isnt fully run in yet and im still on stock ecu
Ooo a T04, thats quite a cheap turbo for the power its rated to :) my old style T88 is rated to 850bhp for piston engines, probably only good for 650 on rotaries lol
What power are you looking for?
I guess this would help with what diff ratio you need:
http://www.kabamus.com/garage/gears.html
What extra mods have you done to the engine, box and drivetrain? Did you get the engine doweled?
Quote from: turbotoaster;663532there just isnt the money for that type of thing m1tch, i really wish there was but i work part time in a call centre, i bet alot of people assume im just tight or trying to prove a point, thats 80% of it, the other is i dont earn the sort of money a few guys on here earn.
Else id be running pp 20b with a gt47 turbo lol
Wouldn\'t we all :Giggle .
Don\'t worry a lot of people do stuff on a tight budget. Some of the inspirational threads of what can be done on small budgets (all being they have a machine shop) http://www.rx7club.com/showthread.php?t=737054
Shaun
Using that gear ratio calculator it is saying that my FCs 5th gear (0.72) with my stock diff (4.1) at 8000 its at 212 mph :D job done...on paper lol
Don\'t you mean a 26B with a GT60? :D
James at JM garage had an \'accident\' with his EGI engine and a pillar drill...it \'accidently\' had holes put in the side exactly where they should be lol :D
I like how that guy is like:
Yeah here is my workshop...I will just knock up some well machined parts lol
Budget..."Notching the velo stacks with a 2.5" radius, I almost broke the $1200 auto-indexing boring head on this when it came unscrewed (http://www.rx7club.com/images/smilies/eek.gif) because I was running it backwards(had to with the boring tool I was using)" :rollin
cool thats good the ones in the pic look marginal, good luck with the project
jaydee...well the car has done 800mile up to yet and seems ok, yes i know thats hardly any mileage but good news so far, the pics of the port arnt the ones of the actual engine, just ones he used for reference, he rotated the engine by hand and marked out the movements of the seals and then ported to them, cant remember the figure exactly but something like another 2mm and the seal would fall out, ill have to direct him to the thread.
Interesting read and great challenge to try and achieve. Good luck with it all :D
Adam
Quote from: m1tch;663542Ooo a T04, thats quite a cheap turbo for the power its rated to :) my old style T88 is rated to 850bhp for piston engines, probably only good for 650 on rotaries lol
What power are you looking for?
I guess this would help with what diff ratio you need:
http://www.kabamus.com/garage/gears.html
What extra mods have you done to the engine, box and drivetrain? Did you get the engine doweled?
to hit my target i need a minimum of 630bhp, the more i have above that the better.
the engine isnt doweled as ive seen a few that have cracked there plates from it, the box is stock, im not doing any 0-60s or drag racing in, theres a fd in usa thats running 700bhp on stock box and he drag races his, runs 9s at 145mph on low boost!
Out of interest won\'t bigger gains also would be to streamline the car even more and get drag down to an absolute minimum. How much material is needed to sheet over the floor of the car .
Is the 630bhp based on a drag coefficient of the profile of a standard car ?
Shaun
Other questions is where are you planning on trying to hit 200mph ? Are all the standard suspension components designed to cope with 200mph ? Will the car undress itself at that kind of speed. What safety kit are you going to use when making the attempt ?
Its definitely an interesting project.
Shaun
Quote from: shaunwil;663568Other questions is where are you planning on trying to hit 200mph ? Are all the standard suspension components designed to cope with 200mph ? Will the car undress itself at that kind of speed. What safety kit are you going to use when making the attempt ?
Shaun
Very good points. What are you gonna do to stop this happening?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNYIjG3se3I
And what are you gonna do when it does?
Quote from: shaunwil;663568Other questions is where are you planning on trying to hit 200mph ? Are all the standard suspension components designed to cope with 200mph ? Will the car undress itself at that kind of speed. What safety kit are you going to use when making the attempt ?
Its definitely an interesting project.
Shaun
I think getting the power and the parts together will be the easier bit, its a bit like when James May took the Veyron to its top speed, yes it could do it, but it was a bit of a faff to actually do it.
Few points id raise
1- safety - i assume you are going to put a roll cage in? An FD feels floaty at 145mph! I dont want to imagine how it feels anywhere remotely close to 200.
2- gearing - I cant see how a standard auto diff is going to be enough. By my calcs, an auto is geared to 170ish if it had the power. Its not even a simple case of changing the 5th cog either. I imagine you would have to run some sort of hilux or ford rear end?
3- power. I would say you arent going to do it with 650 either. 650 is just enough theoretically to overcome aerodynamic drag. Rolling resistance will be pretty high come 200mph. If it were me, id be running some sort of tall rear wing to keep the back end down and thats going to increase aerodynamic drag greatly due to its shape and i imagine an increase in drag induced by the negative lift around it
Finally youve set yourself a target of doing this on a 2 mile straight. If youre lucky you might be doing 140 at the half way mark. That leaves you 1 mile to go from 140 to 200 and stop
Oh yeah thats my final point - you might want to install some proper brakes!
Quote from: Jit;663574Few points id raise
1- safety - i assume you are going to put a roll cage in? An FD feels floaty at 145mph! I dont want to imagine how it feels anywhere remotely close to 200.
2- gearing - I cant see how a standard auto diff is going to be enough. By my calcs, an auto is geared to 170ish if it had the power. Its not even a simple case of changing the 5th cog either. I imagine you would have to run some sort of hilux or ford rear end?
3- power. I would say you arent going to do it with 650 either. 650 is just enough theoretically to overcome aerodynamic drag. Rolling resistance will be pretty high come 200mph. If it were me, id be running some sort of tall rear wing to keep the back end down and thats going to increase aerodynamic drag greatly due to its shape and i imagine an increase in drag induced by the negative lift around it
Finally youve set yourself a target of doing this on a 2 mile straight. If youre lucky you might be doing 140 at the half way mark. That leaves you 1 mile to go from 140 to 200 and stop
Oh yeah thats my final point - you might want to install some proper brakes!
And a main and reserve chute
I thought the auto diff was good for 237 ? I\'m sure kev had a cosmo friend in NZ doing some mental mph !
This thread is raising some very interesting questions !
Plus the speedo is terrible past a ton, its just is far too optimistic.
Shaun
sorry my bad, i hadnt changed the rev limit! a stock FD box with a 3.9 auto final drive should theoretically be geared to 187 ish on an 8000rpm redline. I imagine thats what ant from sterte garage ws running when he did his 180 something mph run.
It is possible to get to 200mph on stock box and auto diff IF the engine will rev to a touch over 9000.
Just looking on mazdatrix and the FD box has the longest 5th / 6th gear too so there wouldn\'t be any easy box swaps.
Shaun
lol! i was just doing the same checking if an RX8 box might do it but alas its geared shorter than the fd.
So gearing wise, itll either need a much taller diff which will hurt acceleration and increase the likelihood of running out of runway or a different box. Just looked up supra 6 speed and I dont think thatll do it either!
the car will be going to bruntingthorpe, the power is based on coefficient of worse cars than the rx7 to be honest, that and a little bit of input from a 650bhp porsche that did 211mph in the same distance ive got(2miles)
there are no plans for aero work, though i may remove the rear spoiler as it adds no downforce and only drag, ill also remove the windscreen wipers and mirrors, thats it
people are forgetting about changes in tire sizes aswell, your saying it cant be done, funny how a 670bhp 4x4 escort cosworth did it, and a 650bhp 4x4 corolla aswell, ive already dont a gps 156mph and felt fine, i know 200mph is different but im doing in a straight line on a ride runway, cant get anymore safer.
i spoke to the guys at racing beat, he lost control because he spun the rear tyres at 220mph, salt is different than tarmac
so there are a lot of guys on here with around that sort of bhp why doesnt somebody slap a auto diff in and see what happens? Everybodies questions will be answered one way or another:Laugh Apart from whether it can be done for £10000
why dont you go for it, you have a big power car, wanna beat me to the prize?
Ive no intentions of going for it.
Just thought it was raising a lot of questions and by your own admission it will take you a while to be able to afford to finish your project so maybe some of the questions raised about gearing could be answered for you.
To be honest i really hope you achieve what you want to, The only thing which really interests me is whether you can do it for this budget and without any form of sponsorship. Please keep us informed as this is an intriging thread
boooo you should have a go, what power are you putting out now?
i did a few calcs from other cars etc.
a stock port fd running a bw 475 turbo made 500hp at 17psi at 8200, now from what ive seen on steve ports the max power is raised about 400-500rpm, im not thinking it will make that much difference but probably say 300rpm at this level so say making maximum power at 8500rpm.
That means ill rev it to around 9k depending on how the power drops off and where the rpm drops to on upshift.
from what i remember, 100mph is around 4500 in 5th on gps on a 4.1 diff with 255/40/17 tyres, so in theory 9k is 200mph, im not saying im going to do it on a 4.1 diff, but changing to a 3.9 should bring it down nicely as it adds on 10mph at top speed and then theres tyre changes that can for example at another 7mph
the plan is once ive done it to show all my costs to prove it can be done, things like fuel, oil and stuff i wont put in, but all the bolt ons etc.
Ill give you a rough price guide now so you can see
car £3000
tein suspension £300
rebuild £3000, includes porting, new bearings, belts, housings, ast delete etc
manifold, turbo, wastegate, screamer pipe, exhaust, inc oil lines £1500
radiator £120
intercooler £260
power fc around £400-450
injectors £140
fuel rail, fpr £200
custom dual fuel pump setup £200
homemade w/i kit £200
that takes me up to £9370 at the moment, some things might be cheaper, some things might be dearer, but thats what im working to at the moment
Most of the 500bhp lads have been through a fair bit to achieve what they have, IIRC even Lee\'s engine threw a tip and RX motors rebuilt it on warranty.
Unless Steve\'s prepared to warranty your engine knowing your intentions, if you throw a tip... the budget will be thrown too... be extremely careful!
Surely larger tyres will give you a percentage not just 7 mph - in theory if you go with a higher profile and larger tyre / wheel size, you could get quite a bit of a speed gain, at the expense of a little acceleraton.
Still - good project - wish you well with it. :cheers
i just did it based on travelling at 215mph what i would gain by upping my tyre size.
i know it will be less as the mph goes down but thought that wouldnt be relevant for this thread.
What your thoughts prof, any words of wisdom for this a level physics student!
The only thing i would suggest for safety is a roll cage. You would be mad to try and top 200mph without one in my opinion. Safety first:cheers
few more bbits to consider:
clutch to take 600hp (£500)
Mapping (£250)
Twin power (£150)
Spark Plugs (£100)
Auto diff with front flange change offset against manual diff sale (£100)
if ur revving to 9k, are you gonna do anything with the bearings and stationary gears?
mapping is being taken care of i think because of magazine coverage.
spark plugs and twin power i forgot to add thanks
we shall see how the exedy clutch holds out but that will be something ill need to look into again ill bet.
Well theres a guy running on a stock mazda engine now at 700bhp reving to 9k for 6months now run 9s at the strip so we shall see how it goes, its running all new mazda bearings at the moment, some people say clearancing is advisable over 9k as you risk getting a side seal stuck, but theres a few reving that high and are fine
not fussed about a rollcage, i know you think im mental but im going in a straight line, i take more risk cornering at 150mph down my local A500
cheers bud... i found all the stuff i had. cheers anyway
Quote from: turbotoaster;663541http://www.partsexpressonline.com/cart/products/TO4E-T%252d76%7B47%7D%22Q%22-Trim.html#
that link should work ed, and give you all the info you need
jaydee...well the car has done 800mile up to yet and seems ok, yes i know thats hardly any mileage but good news so far, the pics of the port arnt the ones of the actual engine, just ones he used for reference, he rotated the engine by hand and marked out the movements of the seals and then ported to them, cant remember the figure exactly but something like another 2mm and the seal would fall out, ill have to direct him to the thread.
the manifolds have been increased insize, not a massive amount i dont think, i never saw the engine in bits, just the pics he sent me as hes nearly 300miles away from me, havent really had any issues with no butterflies at the moment, but i stay below 3k for the moment anyway as the engine isnt fully run in yet and im still on stock ecu
Quote from: turbotoaster;663610i just did it based on travelling at 215mph what i would gain by upping my tyre size.
i know it will be less as the mph goes down but thought that wouldnt be relevant for this thread.
What your thoughts prof, any words of wisdom for this a level physics student!
Just thinking - tyres - there aren\'t that many brands out there that could safely take this sort of speed - tis a lot !
Also, having just watched a top gear rerun recently - featuring the veyron - you might consider an adjustable areofoil. You want downforce for grip and acceleration at mid speeds, but at the top end it will start to interfere with your end goal - so some way of changing attack angle?
From your water diagram - looks like your thinking of spraying pre turbo - jury is still out on that as a good or bad idea - but I\'ve always thought it might result in an increase in the water droplet size as they compressor forces atomised water droplets together.
You might find WI isnt needed at all with alcohol type fuels - Steve and Kev were getting incredible cooling from their PP engines running E85 - would mean you could get rid of the intercooler potentially and have a smoother front end for the car ?
Anyway - these are just the ramblings of a senile old man !
I\'d be interested to see your WI idea in piccies though - ingenious. :cool
alot of people, about 5 that i can think of have told me to go e85, the problem is they just dont sell it up here, its great as its a slow burning fuel and you can run some proper boost. with race fuel i can just stick it in the tank and map it without the need to massive injectors, i cant remember the exact amount but you need 20-30% more fuel, i suppose i could run 2 550c and 4 1600s but then its cost on rails etc and im not sure if i can do it in budget.
toyo currently sponsor madrod whos saph cossie has done 206.1mph and is trying for 215mph this year and they are just giving him sets of 888s
from what the guys say in america and oz the turbo actually helps with atomisation, thats why they run alot more water pre turbo than post turbo but you need to get the distance between the jet and the turbo spot on, it should be aiming directly at the turbo wheel and be around 4inches away.
they also run ALOT of water, the guy with a 700bhp on pump fuel throws in 1600cc/min of straight water, he does have an awesome ignition system though.
his ignition setup cost nearly £600 though and im not sure yet whether i can fit it in my budget.
on a twinpower you can throw about 600cc/min of water in and your ok
Quote from: turbotoaster;663588the car will be going to bruntingthorpe, the power is based on coefficient of worse cars than the rx7 to be honest, that and a little bit of input from a 650bhp porsche that did 211mph in the same distance ive got(2miles)
there are no plans for aero work, though i may remove the rear spoiler as it adds no downforce and only drag, ill also remove the windscreen wipers and mirrors, thats it
people are forgetting about changes in tire sizes aswell, your saying it cant be done, funny how a 670bhp 4x4 escort cosworth did it, and a 650bhp 4x4 corolla aswell, ive already dont a gps 156mph and felt fine, i know 200mph is different but im doing in a straight line on a ride runway, cant get anymore safer.
i spoke to the guys at racing beat, he lost control because he spun the rear tyres at 220mph, salt is different than tarmac
I don\'t actually know why they actually race on salt, as its only a thin crust of salt, the rest is unstable mud lol I know when they ran the boniville FC there were regulations on the hight of the spoiler, which wasn\'t enough. I would definatly run a rear spoiler, not a run of the mill bolt on one, but a proper one that has been aero tested.
Quote from: Jit;663574Few points id raise
3- power. I would say you arent going to do it with 650 either. 650 is just enough theoretically to overcome aerodynamic drag. Rolling resistance will be pretty high come 200mph. If it were me, id be running some sort of tall rear wing to keep the back end down and thats going to increase aerodynamic drag greatly due to its shape and i imagine an increase in drag induced by the negative lift around it
600hp will be ample to do it on a 2mile straight but good luck getting your fd to a reliable 600hp and keeping it together on a top speed run!
a tall rear wing (bgw) will knock off around 20mph on your top speed at the measured mile, i know this because i have done it
Quote from: Jit;663574Finally youve set yourself a target of doing this on a 2 mile straight. If youre lucky you might be doing 140 at the half way mark.
with 600fwhp he should be doing that just past the 1/4mile, again, i know
its harder than you think getting to 200, good luck and keep us posted
fyi, willday logged 177 in 4th gear at a km but had to back off the measured mile due to the car becoming unstable, i could tell you his ratios but id have to kill you :P
I\'m still converned about aero tbh - I\'d not just talking about the CoD - I\'m talking the whole package.
You need to look at making the car as slippery as possible, but you do still need downforce. At the least, I\'d look at creating a flat underbody and using some sort of diffuser to keep the back stable. It\'s about so much more than just running the car as low as possible.
Top speed runs put a massive strain on cars - I\'d genuinely be surprised (And very pleasantly so) if you managed to do it in budget.
Your price list is optimistic to say the least in my opinion, and this is from a man who\'s jsut doing a \'basic\' rebuild, and realising the extra costs. It\'s the small things like fuel lines, gaskets, etc that really start to add up.
If you can do it, it would be a massive acheivement - I say go for it. It would also be a massive kick in the teeth for all the eBay parts haters (as I guess from the prices this is the sort of thing you are going to run with a lot of the parts - IC, rad etc)
Where are you getting a 600bhp capible clutch from for £500? try more like £1200 lol
not tru dude...mine can handle 514lb/ft tourqe....cost me about 400 quid
I think some of you guys are forgetting that he\'s not attempting to build a car that\'ll do 200 all day long, the clutch, cooling, brakes, tyres etc only need to hold out for the run and the point is made. Reliability is not a major concern here so he can go cheap on parts some of you might not.
As for the FD being floaty at 145? Mine is more than happy at a GPS 156 for miles at a time on the autobahn - I find it very stable, and the only handling mods I\'ve got are good tyres, Superstreets and proper alignment... Granted 200mph is a big difference :D
Alls i can say is good luck!!
masterpower are the shytest turbos you can buy!! If you going to build something to do 200mph and hold together you would not be using egay junk..
Like i said good luck mate :)
Quote from: Aubec;663661I think some of you guys are forgetting that he\'s not attempting to build a car that\'ll do 200 all day long, the clutch, cooling, brakes, tyres etc only need to hold out for the run and the point is made. Reliability is not a major concern here so he can go cheap on parts some of you might not.
As for the FD being floaty at 145? Mine is more than happy at a GPS 156 for miles at a time on the autobahn - I find it very stable, and the only handling mods I\'ve got are good tyres, Superstreets and proper alignment... Granted 200mph is a big difference :D
my point its to rev the motor that hard and for that long will need a highly modded and well built motor with super strict clearances or it will self destruct halfway through 4th gear, i have seen it many of a time
the point people are missing he needs to do the speed and stop in 2 miles, all the ppl who are saying their cars do 160+ on private motorways/autobahns usually need 4+ miles to reach that speed and they have a 80mph rolling start most of the time
its alot harder and takes more money and development than you would think
personally i think he\'ll struggle to top 175
prove me wrong by actually doing it dude :)
c
Quote from: 12at;663662Alls i can say is good luck!!
masterpower are the shytest turbos you can buy!!
and is this statement based on personal experience?....or a well known fact?
Question then as I\'m unfamiliar with the location, is the run from a standing start, or will you be entering the straight at speed? Do you need to come to a complete halt at the end or can you peel off onto an exit from the straight still carrying some speed?
Quote from: 12at;663662masterpower are the shytest turbos you can buy!! If you going to build something to do 200mph and hold together you would not be using egay junk..
I think you are getting confused with XSpower dude.
Masterpower are quite good a few forum members have had good results with them, Ed will inform you. Internet myths are quite funny
http://www.dynamicturbo.com/products/master-power-turbo.html
Rather than trying to shoot the guy down why not try to give him constructive input!!!!!
There\'s a video of an Audi S4 hitting 198 at Brunters with a rolling start, now that car is a brick compared to an FD, it didn\'t have a chute, a roll cage etc. so I think the \'difficulty\' is being talked up a bit by some.
I do accept there is a danger the engine just ....s itself on the day though, it wouldn\'t be an FD otherwise :D
The stock areo and body on the FD is good enough for 200, I mean look at those brick skylines hitting 200 with brute power. A drag type low level rear spoiler, a proper rear diffuser and front splitter need to be added.
I think a GT42 size turbo would be ideal, along with an auto diff, 18 inch wheels, TOYO tires.
As Col says the engine is critical to success. but hopefully its been covered already by Turbotoaster.
Fuelling is also critical, you are going to need proper fuel pumps (no Warlboros only consider Bosch or Aeromotive) to feed the high boost of a GT42 type turbo.
A heavy duty ACT 6 puk clutch will do the job, you are not doing Drag starts.
But as this is a long term project and not being rushed, and if each point is looked at methodically the goal can be reached.
You will blow your budget slightly, but if its long term then you wont notice the money spent over time lol
Pre Turbo WI will be good so the intercooler does not need to be huge in area only good in flowing, some intercoolers are a bit too restrictive in airflow (not be confused with cooling of the air), you may find running without a restictive intercooler would be better if the WI is running well.
Anyway good luck Dude, just take your time and do each area properly and you may hit your goal
Most things are possible on an unlimited budget, but as Blitz said earlier, this car I guess isn\'t being designed to deliver 200 mph cruising.
Given the restrictive budget, ingenuity is going to have to come into play - but anyone who\'s seen the \'fastest Indian\' film knows that it\'s possible to achieve a lot with ingenuity.
Someone asked what the \'rules\' are regarding the 200mph - is it a standing start ?
Do you have to reach the target speed within a specific distance ?
Going to be impressive in any case - and good on you for having a go. :cheers
Quote from: Prof;663676Most things are possible on an unlimited budget, but as Blitz said earlier, this car I guess isn\'t being designed to deliver 200 mph cruising.
Given the restrictive budget, ingenuity is going to have to come into play - but anyone who\'s seen the \'fastest Indian\' film knows that it\'s possible to achieve a lot with ingenuity.
Someone asked what the \'rules\' are regarding the 200mph - is it a standing start ?
Do you have to reach the target speed within a specific distance ?
Going to be impressive in any case - and good on you for having a go. :cheers
Sorry to go off topic slightly but is the fastest indian out yet? because just looked it up on youtube and i really wanna see it now.
back onto the thread lol i really do wish you all the luck in the world and would love to be able to see this happen on the budget you have set because it will show people what is possible if you put your mind to it (and alot of research) once again good luck and i will be watching this post closely.
also if you need any parts picked up from around the london or hastings area i may be able to help you out as i go there about once a month and id be more then happy to help plus if you need anyparts picked up from south wales i can help out again because thats where i dwell lol
Kris
Quote from: mx1311;663625600hp will be ample to do it on a 2mile straight but good luck getting your fd to a reliable 600hp and keeping it together on a top speed run!
a tall rear wing (bgw) will knock off around 20mph on your top speed at the measured mile, i know this because i have done it
with 600fwhp he should be doing that just past the 1/4mile, again, i know
its harder than you think getting to 200, good luck and keep us posted
fyi, willday logged 177 in 4th gear at a km but had to back off the measured mile due to the car becoming unstable, i could tell you his ratios but id have to kill you :P
haha thanks for the info, the v8 powered silver rx7 was running completely stock body with a bit of tape in the creases, i may remove the rear wing as its shown to add no downforce but increase drag, maybe get a cheap frp diffuser but i doubt it will be beneficial, the v8 hit 196mph in 1mile, ill be trying what the ruf porshe guy does and taking a very wide approach to the bottom corner to carry as much speed as possible, it added 7mph onto his top speed compared to standing start(204/211)
You sound like you know alot about this, im guessing you have been vmax or totb?
Quote from: SiH;663630I\'m still converned about aero tbh - I\'d not just talking about the CoD - I\'m talking the whole package.
You need to look at making the car as slippery as possible, but you do still need downforce. At the least, I\'d look at creating a flat underbody and using some sort of diffuser to keep the back stable. It\'s about so much more than just running the car as low as possible.
Top speed runs put a massive strain on cars - I\'d genuinely be surprised (And very pleasantly so) if you managed to do it in budget.
Your price list is optimistic to say the least in my opinion, and this is from a man who\'s jsut doing a \'basic\' rebuild, and realising the extra costs. It\'s the small things like fuel lines, gaskets, etc that really start to add up.
If you can do it, it would be a massive acheivement - I say go for it. It would also be a massive kick in the teeth for all the eBay parts haters (as I guess from the prices this is the sort of thing you are going to run with a lot of the parts - IC, rad etc)
the rad is from ebay, but the intercooler isnt, the fuel pumps will be bought from there but they are proper ones, it just happens to be thats the cheapest place.
the engine is all fully built with all new gaskets, fuel lines and bearings and is nearly ran in
the £1500 for the entire turbo setup includes everything, might even be less, he just said its £1500 at worse case
Quote from: Aubec;663661I think some of you guys are forgetting that he\'s not attempting to build a car that\'ll do 200 all day long, the clutch, cooling, brakes, tyres etc only need to hold out for the run and the point is made. Reliability is not a major concern here so he can go cheap on parts some of you might not.
As for the FD being floaty at 145? Mine is more than happy at a GPS 156 for miles at a time on the autobahn - I find it very stable, and the only handling mods I\'ve got are good tyres, Superstreets and proper alignment... Granted 200mph is a big difference :D
exactly, if i planned on doing 200mph everyday on my way to work in germany then i wouldnt even go down this route, it would be a 20b at least, probably a v8 ill be honest
Alot of people imagine the thing will take off once it goes about 180mph lol
Quote from: mx1311;663664my point its to rev the motor that hard and for that long will need a highly modded and well built motor with super strict clearances or it will self destruct halfway through 4th gear, i have seen it many of a time
the point people are missing he needs to do the speed and stop in 2 miles, all the ppl who are saying their cars do 160+ on private motorways/autobahns usually need 4+ miles to reach that speed and they have a 80mph rolling start most of the time
its alot harder and takes more money and development than you would think
personally i think he\'ll struggle to top 175
prove me wrong by actually doing it dude :)
c
To stop for braking i roughly have about 1.6-7miles of flat out acceleration, the reason for the 650bhp is that, if i had 4miles to play with i wouldnt need nowhere near that power, take me to where the veyron did it and i bet i could do it with 550bhp
why do you only say 175, do you believe then i wont make the power, its gonna go on a dyno before hand, no point taking it there if its only making 500bhp
Quote from: Aubec;663666Question then as I\'m unfamiliar with the location, is the run from a standing start, or will you be entering the straight at speed? Do you need to come to a complete halt at the end or can you peel off onto an exit from the straight still carrying some speed?
see previous quote my friend
here you go
http://www.bruntingthorpe.com
Quote from: BlitzBoy;663672The stock areo and body on the FD is good enough for 200, I mean look at those brick skylines hitting 200 with brute power. A drag type low level rear spoiler, a proper rear diffuser and front splitter need to be added.
I think a GT42 size turbo would be ideal, along with an auto diff, 18 inch wheels, TOYO tires.
As Col says the engine is critical to success. but hopefully its been covered already by Turbotoaster.
Fuelling is also critical, you are going to need proper fuel pumps (no Warlboros only consider Bosch or Aeromotive) to feed the high boost of a GT42 type turbo.
A heavy duty ACT 6 puk clutch will do the job, you are not doing Drag starts.
But as this is a long term project and not being rushed, and if each point is looked at methodically the goal can be reached.
You will blow your budget slightly, but if its long term then you wont notice the money spent over time lol
Pre Turbo WI will be good so the intercooler does not need to be huge in area only good in flowing, some intercoolers are a bit too restrictive in airflow (not be confused with cooling of the air), you may find running without a restictive intercooler would be better if the WI is running well.
Anyway good luck Dude, just take your time and do each area properly and you may hit your goal
thanks blitzboy, i know ive bothered you a bit on fduk but i do take what you say seriously and have learnt from what you have told me.
I think i mentioned earlier that i have not changed to a Borg Warner s475 as i can get it for nearly the same price as a masterpower yet it has a much bigger rear end, from what ernieT says on rx7club it should match a GT4202 yet spool a little quicker:Giggle
Quote from: Prof;663676Most things are possible on an unlimited budget, but as Blitz said earlier, this car I guess isn\'t being designed to deliver 200 mph cruising.
Given the restrictive budget, ingenuity is going to have to come into play - but anyone who\'s seen the \'fastest Indian\' film knows that it\'s possible to achieve a lot with ingenuity.
Someone asked what the \'rules\' are regarding the 200mph - is it a standing start ?
Do you have to reach the target speed within a specific distance ?
Going to be impressive in any case - and good on you for having a go. :cheers
Ive got a dvd copy of fastest indian on my computer, i sat and watched it and thought it was the best movie ever, sounds daft but i can see that as me when im old, ive loved speed ever since i knew what it was and yes im sure a bird will talk me into kids etc but i cant honestly think ill give it up
im gonna try and track down the data log from rod on this 201mph run as his will be what ill need to match, ill pm him now and let you know when he gets back to me
Quote from: FD3S Efini;663697Sorry to go off topic slightly but is the fastest indian out yet? because just looked it up on youtube and i really wanna see it now.
back onto the thread lol i really do wish you all the luck in the world and would love to be able to see this happen on the budget you have set because it will show people what is possible if you put your mind to it (and alot of research) once again good luck and i will be watching this post closely.
also if you need any parts picked up from around the london or hastings area i may be able to help you out as i go there about once a month and id be more then happy to help plus if you need anyparts picked up from south wales i can help out again because thats where i dwell lol
Kris
thank you very much for your help, thats the thing with this, yes ive spent alot of time researching, built my own engines and come up with alot of stuff myself but im not the fountain of knowledge and will never claim to be, people like yourself offering to help a complete stranger is what brings forums together:cheers
Interesting thread. Keep it going. We are quite embarrising top speed wise compared to the other performance models.
thanks ross, want me to pm you on fduk or email you? as i wanted to talk to you about being involved in this
Email is easiest, I\'ll be up for helping, you have the right ideas, make sure you stick to power FC though.
I want to do 200 in my new project Midnight.
I like the mech WI idea due to simple nature of it. Not sure on your distance to the compressor wheel though.
We pulled 160 in 1/4 of a mile, and I always went way past the line due to being confused as to where it was, so not sure how fast we went in that car. Not really interested in the feeling of topspeed, to be able to say youve done it would be v cool though.
Quote from: Jit;663574Few points id raise
1- safety - i assume you are going to put a roll cage in? An FD feels floaty at 145mph! I dont want to imagine how it feels anywhere remotely close to 200.
I\'ve had mine up to 171mph at Bruntingthorpe (timing beams, not gps/speedo) and while the steering felt light there was nothing floaty about it even over the undulations there. Car has nothing significant aero-wise.
Certianly for 200mph though I\'d want to build up to it over a good few runs - I certainly wouldn\'t go for 200mph on the first run - just in case something gives way (bonnet pins etc,.).
Would love to give this a go myself one day,do bruntingthorpe do a day for anybody to do some runs?-expensive?
As ross says its not a lot of people that can say they\'ve done it,and is a very cool club to be in!
good luck with the build,any pics yet?
Quote from: BlitzBoy;663672Pre Turbo WI will be good so the intercooler does not need to be huge in area only good in flowing, some intercoolers are a bit too restrictive in airflow (not be confused with cooling of the air), you may find running without a restictive intercooler would be better if the WI is running well.
couldn\'t you just not bother with an intercooler and use meth with the WI? as it\'s one off runs you could pull all those tricks like sticking dry ice in the WI resevoir!
awesome project, good luck.
Quote from: RobMatthews;663779Would love to give this a go myself one day,do bruntingthorpe do a day for anybody to do some runs?-expensive?
As ross says its not a lot of people that can say they\'ve done it,and is a very cool club to be in!
good luck with the build,any pics yet?
yes its called vmax, i cant remember the exact price for the day, think its about £125, type vmas into youtube, most of the cars that go are sports/supercars so its worth it just to look at the automotive porn!
the only pics i have are on this thread at the moment, saving money for all the bolt ons and will add pics as i get the parts.
Quote from: jackaleks;663810couldn\'t you just not bother with an intercooler and use meth with the WI? as it\'s one off runs you could pull all those tricks like sticking dry ice in the WI resevoir!
awesome project, good luck.
Unless your running the thing on straight meth i dont think you will be able to do that and when speaking to ross hes saying we should be running 30psi+ on that turbo, the same turbo running on a stock engine at 32psi did 709whp, thats about 800fly power, now thats in the states so converting it to our power that still works out at 700fly power, if 700bhp doesnt do it, then we may aswell go jump off a bridge now!
running that sort of boost will mean the air will be pretty hot, w/i cant cover for that much, plus if that was possible, id still need to buy an intercooler after, so thats more money
Why doesnt or hasnt someone with a 650 hp rx put the other diff on and bigger tyres and try it? if its that simple it would have been done quite a few times. If it works ill probably do the same 200 would be sweeeeeet
Quote from: DR SCHNITZEL;663842Why doesnt or hasnt someone with a 650 hp rx put the other diff on and bigger tyres and try it? if its that simple it would have been done quite a few times. If it works ill probably do the same 200 would be sweeeeeet
quite simply because you can probably count the 650+cars in this country on one hand and most of them are geared for the qtr mile
well from what has been said before and on fduk there is a bit of unsure-ability on what can actually be done in terms of top speed.
So today i went out with my gps meter to do some gear testing.
to do 100mph(gps) i need to do 4500rpm, give or take 20rpm
so to do 200mph i need to pull 9000rpm, simple maths. this is on 255/40/17s there maybe 1mph more for tyre expansion but ill leave that out to make it easier. also a 4.1 diff
So i got out my gear calculator program i have to put the numbers in to see how i can help.
online i have found that the 5th gear results are much longer than they should be, 0.719, which must be incorrect else id be doing a massive speed.
Anyway i adjusted my 5th gear till i got 100mph at 4500rpm with tyres stated earlier.
This gave me a 5 gear ratio of 0.820 or 22.15mph per 1000rpm.
Now according to what the guy with the stock port and same turbo as me did, his max power was at 8200rpm, because of my big streetport im calculating that my max power will probably be about 8500rpm.
So to do 200mph im going to be past my max power and its gonna be trailing off, not good really at that means ill have less power where i need it most.
At my maximum power ill only be doing 188mph, so well short of the mark, so lets change the diff to an auto one to see what we can do.
now this changes the speed at max power to 198mph, which is much better, very close to the mark.
Ill have to wait to see what my final max power/rpm will be but it least im making progress on gearing.
also say for example i only make max power at 8200rpm like the other guy did i can still hit 200mph with 8250mph if i change my rear tyres to 255/45/17
hope this clears up any potential confusion people have had in the past
But if you have a wider gear ratio you have less torque you might be better off aiming to achieve max power at 9000rpm and do it with the 4.1 diff. Thats just a theory i\'m no expert.
the engine is alread built timmy so we will just have to see what happens.
ill be running a 5inch downpipe to help with spool and running the least amount of bends in the pipeing i can but will just be down to the whether the engine can hold onto the power at high rpm.
An auto diff can be put in for the run then ill prob run a 4.1 on the road
i wish you all the best sir, remember to take pictures :)
When is this event? What magazine is covering it?
AS I SAID BEFORE DUDE...WILL YOUR SEALS HOLD ON AT THAT RPM???......I THINK YOU SHOULD HAVE THE ENGINE BUILT FOR THE JOB FIRST AND FOREMOST.
ALSO EXPLAIN TO ME HOW THE SIZE OF THE DOWNPIPE WILL HELP WITH THE SPOOL....IT WILL HELP WITH OVERALL POWER BUT I DONT KNOW ABOUT SPOOL.
Quote from: turbotoaster;663877the engine is alread built timmy so we will just have to see what happens.
ill be running a 5inch downpipe to help with spool and running the least amount of bends in the pipeing i can but will just be down to the whether the engine can hold onto the power at high rpm.
An auto diff can be put in for the run then ill prob run a 4.1 on the road
Good luck - very interesting project :Thumbs-up
Quote from: Ed_RX7;663975AS I SAID BEFORE DUDE...WILL YOUR SEALS HOLD ON AT THAT RPM???......I THINK YOU SHOULD HAVE THE ENGINE BUILT FOR THE JOB FIRST AND FOREMOST.
ALSO EXPLAIN TO ME HOW THE SIZE OF THE DOWNPIPE WILL HELP WITH THE SPOOL....IT WILL HELP WITH OVERALL POWER BUT I DONT KNOW ABOUT SPOOL.
caps lock alert!! haha
well what has been done cannot be undone, i dont have a spare 2k to take some part just to some clearancing. As long as the map if relatively safe then it should be ok, let the boost do the work instead of ignition.
One reason for a large exhaust is by lowering the outlet pressure, you increased the pressure differential, and now the exhaust gas can expand more, and do more work. That increased work pushes harder on your turbo, and it spools up faster.
kind of like letting a opening a fizzy pop bottle in space or on earth
Good luck with your project..... way over my head at the moment, but still very interesting.
Will watch further posts wit a great deal of interest.
The thing is though, peak power at high revs briefly is one thing, but sustained high revs at peak power, and high load, such as you will need to reach v-max, is a completely different kettle of fish. Top speed runs are so hard on cars.
I want you to succeed, i really really do, I\'ve just got a nasty feeling about this.
Quote from: turbo boy;663908When is this event? What magazine is covering it?
it will happen when the car is ready, its been covered by redline magazine as stav wants to see it as he has an fc
siH.......its all about heat, heat will kill any engine, hence the pre-water injection to battle against knock, the bigger rad to keep water temps down and the big intercooler to make sure air temps are kept to a decent level.
racing beat did 242 while being flat out for 5miles, engine held together fine, he just made sure to get heat away from the engine and that the temps were all controlled
Quote from: turbotoaster;663865to do 100mph(gps) i need to do 4500rpm, give or take 20rpm
so to do 200mph i need to pull 9000rpm, simple maths.
There\'s a fundamental flaw in your logic. There aren\'t that many constants, values you attain at 100mph will be different from those at 200mph.
x = power at y
If y = 4500rpm, the engine will produce x, the car will travel at 100mph
If y = 9000rpm, the engine produces 2x, the car will not travel at 200mph
If y = 9000rpm, and the engine produces 4x, the car will travel at 200mph, I believe.
If you make 100mph of 200bhp @ 4500rpm, you need 800bhp @ 9000rpm to make 200mph, just to overcome drag.
That\'s just a quick example of the logic. You can find the more complicated formula online and read about it,
Pd = Fd x v = 1/2pv^3 x ACd
Of course I could be wrong, tell me what you make of it though.
The car may produce 200bhp at 4500 rpm but it probably uses closer to 100bhp as you don\'t need to use wot to go that fast. So really roughly thats only 400bhp to do 200mph.
Quote from: S3TH;664057There\'s a fundamental flaw in your logic. There aren\'t that many constants, values you attain at 100mph will be different from those at 200mph.
x = power at y
If y = 4500rpm, the engine will produce x, the car will travel at 100mph
If y = 9000rpm, the engine produces 2x, the car will not travel at 200mph
If y = 9000rpm, and the engine produces 4x, the car will travel at 200mph, I believe.
If you make 100mph of 200bhp @ 4500rpm, you need 800bhp @ 9000rpm to make 200mph, just to overcome drag.
That\'s just a quick example of the logic. You can find the more complicated formula online and read about it,
Pd = Fd x v = 1/2pv^3 x ACd
Of course I could be wrong, tell me what you make of it though.
That\'s power though dude, not gearing. The OP was just talking about gearing when he was referencing that.
LOL sorry about that!!
I still think youll find its the backpressure that will help spool moreso.
Am i wrong..if so please enlighten me.
I see what your saying about the engine now tho whats done is done!
Lets just hope it stays together for you when you attempt it.
Quote from: turbotoaster;664029caps lock alert!! haha
well what has been done cannot be undone, i dont have a spare 2k to take some part just to some clearancing. As long as the map if relatively safe then it should be ok, let the boost do the work instead of ignition.
One reason for a large exhaust is by lowering the outlet pressure, you increased the pressure differential, and now the exhaust gas can expand more, and do more work. That increased work pushes harder on your turbo, and it spools up faster.
kind of like letting a opening a fizzy pop bottle in space or on earth
Quote from: Ed_RX7;664066LOL sorry about that!!
I still think youll find its the backpressure that will help spool moreso.
Am i wrong..if so please enlighten me.
.
Not strictly true there Ed, the only thing that will help spool is changing the actual A/R (eg decrease in Size) not decreasing the size of diameter of the exhaust. Decreasing back pressure on a turbo engine will increase top end power. To explain what will increase spool I shall quote a response from a geek I found, which explains it quite well.
"the restriction must be the turbo itself. The turbo utilizes the pressure differential between the manifold and the downpipe for its energy source. putting a restrictor infront of the turbo will reduce the pressure differential of the flow after that restrictor and the downpipe. thus actually hurting performance.
this is why turbo\'s use different turbocharger housing a/r ratios. The smaller the ratio the greater the restriction at the turbine nozzle and thus greater force applied to the turbine wheel.
If you want an every day phenomenon to impress your brain, go get your garden hose and turn it on without a nozzle.... spray a wheel of a bicycle that is upside downwheel, and see the top rpm you make. then put a nozzle on the hose and look at your new top rpm. try altering the nozzles spray pattern and thus pressure and see what changes it makes.
if you want your turbo to spool sooner you need to meet any or all of these criteria.
1. produce MORE total volume of gasses infront of the turbo, thus building higher pressures because the nozzle will only flow so much for said pressure.
2. mechanically lighten the turbo so less force is needed to move it.
3. alter the nozzle characteristics so that for the same flow a greater pressure is created and thus a greater force impacts the turbine. ***
The problem with altering the A/R to a smaller number is the restriction in the turbo gets greater. Thus you may spool the turbo faster but your total flow is more limited and thus hurting horsepower."
But by increasing the size of the down pipe isn\'t that also altering the pressure differential?
What I mean is if 100 cfm is flowing through a 3" pipe it would be X pressure, if the same volume of gas is flowing through 5" pipe it would be 0.75X pressure.
As others have said above i could be wrong and welcome anyone who can correct me on this.
Matt
yes correct you alter the pressure differential hence helping power by increasing the diameter of the downpipe\\exhaust, it should also speed up the exhaust gasses going through the turbine wheel and in theory help spool as well. The exhaust A/R makes the biggest difference in spool though
Hope they dont have noise limits at Brunters as a 4 inch or 5 inch exhaust system will be loud!!!
cool so I am thinking along the correct lines.
Quote from: BlitzBoy;664095Hope they dont have noise limits at Brunters as a 4 inch or 5 inch exhaust system will be loud!!!
I was gonna mention that but I didn\'t wanna seem too negative on the dude\'s thread.... I\'m pretty sure Bruntingthorpe have rather nazi noise restrictions, and have had for a long time. Bike magazines have been testing there forever, and the number of tests that read "we never got to do a top speed run because they threw us out for being too noisy as soon as the bike fired up" are countless.....
I DON\'T CARE - I CAN\'T WAIT TO HEAR THIS BADBOY!!! WHY AM I SHOUTING! :3gears-rh:3gears-rh:3gears-rh;)
Quote from: BlitzBoy;664095Hope they dont have noise limits at Brunters as a 4 inch or 5 inch exhaust system will be loud!!!
Quote from: S3TH;664057There\'s a fundamental flaw in your logic. There aren\'t that many constants, values you attain at 100mph will be different from those at 200mph.
x = power at y
If y = 4500rpm, the engine will produce x, the car will travel at 100mph
If y = 9000rpm, the engine produces 2x, the car will not travel at 200mph
If y = 9000rpm, and the engine produces 4x, the car will travel at 200mph, I believe.
If you make 100mph of 200bhp @ 4500rpm, you need 800bhp @ 9000rpm to make 200mph, just to overcome drag.
That\'s just a quick example of the logic. You can find the more complicated formula online and read about it,
Pd = Fd x v = 1/2pv^3 x ACd
Of course I could be wrong, tell me what you make of it though.
yeh im talking about gearing though mate, id be concerned if it took 200bhp to do 100mph!!
from what car manufactures have done to quote big top speeds in supercars is use big ovals, or that long straight for the germans.
This takes out the big thing of distance and from what ive seen, 500bhp will achieve 200mph, now thats with a very long distance and a quite aerodynamic car, ie ferrari etc.
the reason i need 630bhp peak power at 200mph is because i only have about 1.6-1.7miles of full throttle, about 31secs worth.
This is why gearing is so massively important to me.
So say i run a 4.1 diff, if i made say 700bhp at 8.5k but 630bhp at 9k and 9k was 200mph ill be ok, any less than 630bhp at 9k and im not gonna do it, ie if the power drops off to quick.
its alot harder to make 700bhp than 630bhp so i need to get my gearing right
Quote from: Nik da Greek;664107I was gonna mention that but I didn\'t wanna seem too negative on the dude\'s thread.... I\'m pretty sure Bruntingthorpe have rather nazi noise restrictions, and have had for a long time. Bike magazines have been testing there forever, and the number of tests that read "we never got to do a top speed run because they threw us out for being too noisy as soon as the bike fired up" are countless.....
Already spoke to stav about this, we are sorting something out to cover us
Quote from: SiH;664064That\'s power though dude, not gearing. The OP was just talking about gearing when he was referencing that.
Yeah, just re-read, you\'re right. Just looked up the FD\'s coefficient anyway, min bhp required is 400 to overcome drag @ 200mph... so with 650 drag shouldn\'t effect the output. This looks interesting, though, someone needs to give him a cash injection or a loan... I want pics :Giggle
Will your porting support that sort of power?
I dont know enough about porting to answer but from my own experience when my car was streetported it ran out of puff @1.4ish bar on reworx dyno and there was no more gains to be had.
I didnt see those ports to be able to compare against yours.
As been said before, you can get huge power even from stock ports if you put huge amounts of boost in as shown in the US, Porting will help power be made with less boost(therefore less heat),help spool, and change where peak power is made.
but this is the bit i dont understand hence my question.
If there were no more gains to be had past 1.4bar on a streetported motor then surely it should be worse on a standard motor?.
I know you can up the boost to whatever you want(within reason) but whats the point if your not making any gains?
your gains will start to decrease after a set point depending on turbo size efficenency due to the compressable heat, you can help to expand the effeciency of the turbo with the fuel you use and if you run WI.
There are a couple of guys with stock ported engines in the US well over 600hp, one is running E85 (therefore combustable temps are lower) at 30psi, he cracked a 9 second run in his FD
Quote from: lee mills;664124but this is the bit i dont understand hence my question.
If there were no more gains to be had past 1.4bar on a streetported motor then surely it should be worse on a standard motor?.
I know you can up the boost to whatever you want(within reason) but whats the point if your not making any gains?
ports will help with spool, let you use a lower boost to achieve the same power and where you make most of your power.
The guy in the US was using an unopened stock port mazda engine running 32psi of boost on the bw s475 and he made 709 at the wheels, thats roughly about 700bhp fly for us. now he made that power at 8200rpm, im guessing that ill make it a little higher, maybe 8500rpm because im ported, on that turbo with a bridgeport engine on guy with an rx3 made 765whp at 9.5k so it does push the power band higher.
You will be suprised what you can squeeze into stock ports buddy, im guessing the 1.4 was on pump gas? because we are talking race gas or e85 here
Quote from: BlitzBoy;664122As been said before, you can get huge power even from stock ports if you put huge amounts of boost in as shown in the US, Porting will help power be made with less boost(therefore less heat),help spool, and change where peak power is made.
spot on:Santa and beat me to it ya bugger!
Here is the famous stock ported FD , power dyno thread
http://www.rx7club.com/showthread.php?t=833684
And here is the tread when the same car did the 9 second run, awesome achievement, stock ports and gearbox!
http://www.rx7club.com/showthread.php?t=865403
totally different angle but thought it maybe of interest??!! or just the fact that it\'s an interesting vid with one achievement mind! ;)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p1cLfiVSyrw
Cool vid, thanks.
Remonds me the bonnet on the drag car lifted when we ran some big terminals, prob worth running 4 pins.
thats a pretty cool video actually, shows how power can overcome aero, but thats a massive amount of power, he mentioned 1000bhp
for comparison scoot ran 204.6mph with 680bhp running a bonnet with holes in, a wing on the back and a rear diffuser, so overall more drag than a stock car, might be more stable but doing over 200mph down some back B road needs a bit of stability haha
Quote from: BlitzBoy;664128Here is the famous stock ported FD , power dyno thread
http://www.rx7club.com/showthread.php?t=833684
And here is the tread when the same car did the 9 second run, awesome achievement, stock ports and gearbox!
http://www.rx7club.com/showthread.php?t=865403
Bloody hell that second link!
Those runs are somthing else :)
Good luck turbotoaster dude!, if you have rod on board thats a bonus too even though the rex isn\'t quite aerodynamically challenged as saph lol!!:spank
You have save big balls my friend maximum Kudos to you if you pull it off as i think it may spur more people into modifying there 7\'s and not blowing big cash monies in the process.
Matt
yes mate all true......what i should have said was restriction....exhaust side...housing and exhaust.:)
Quote from: BlitzBoy;664082Not strictly true there Ed, the only thing that will help spool is changing the actual A/R (eg decrease in Size) not decreasing the size of diameter of the exhaust. Decreasing back pressure on a turbo engine will increase top end power. To explain what will increase spool I shall quote a response from a geek I found, which explains it quite well.
"the restriction must be the turbo itself. The turbo utilizes the pressure differential between the manifold and the downpipe for its energy source. putting a restrictor infront of the turbo will reduce the pressure differential of the flow after that restrictor and the downpipe. thus actually hurting performance.
this is why turbo\'s use different turbocharger housing a/r ratios. The smaller the ratio the greater the restriction at the turbine nozzle and thus greater force applied to the turbine wheel.
If you want an every day phenomenon to impress your brain, go get your garden hose and turn it on without a nozzle.... spray a wheel of a bicycle that is upside downwheel, and see the top rpm you make. then put a nozzle on the hose and look at your new top rpm. try altering the nozzles spray pattern and thus pressure and see what changes it makes.
if you want your turbo to spool sooner you need to meet any or all of these criteria.
1. produce MORE total volume of gasses infront of the turbo, thus building higher pressures because the nozzle will only flow so much for said pressure.
2. mechanically lighten the turbo so less force is needed to move it.
3. alter the nozzle characteristics so that for the same flow a greater pressure is created and thus a greater force impacts the turbine. ***
The problem with altering the A/R to a smaller number is the restriction in the turbo gets greater. Thus you may spool the turbo faster but your total flow is more limited and thus hurting horsepower."
this i found online and i think its a really good explanation
Here we go:
This will be a long one, so get something to drink, something to eat, and settle down for some science.
Lets get some vocabulary out of the way or you won\'t be able to follow anything I say....errr...write. Do you know the difference between an inducer and an exducer? Well, take a look at the compressor and turbine on a real turbo. Funny looking fins aren\'t they? Not the same size all the way down the blade from tip to base. There is a reason for this. Each stage of the blade (small section vs big section) has a special purpose.
First lets look at the compressor wheel and figure out how it works.
The inducer part of of turbine is at the end of the shaft and can be seen by looking into the intake of the turbo compressor housing (looks like a fan). The blades that you see there extend into a larger diameter at the other end of the turbine. This is the exducer stage. The inducer on the compressor turbine is responsible for generating the vacuum at the compressor housing inlet that pulls air into the compressor. The air then "rides" the fins towards the exducer stage, which is a larger diameter, and gets sling-shot towards the outside of the compressor housing. The housing collects this moving air an expels it through the housing\'s outlet.
The size of the compressor turbine determines the maximum amount of boost that the turbo charger can produce. It also effects the spool-up time of the turbo. The type of compressor wheel is usually designated as its "trim", which is a value that describes the inducer and exducer sizes. Typically, the exducer is significantly larger than the inducer on a compressor turbine.
Next lets look at the exhaust turbine wheel and figure how the inducer and exducer work. And lets learn how the turbine gets moving in the first place. This will be important when we answer your question of making a small turbine and a big compressor.
The exhaust turbine also has an inducer and exducer, but because the exhaust turbine has the opposite function of the compressor turbine, the two are switched. The exhaust gasses are directed towards the outside of turbine through a nozzle. This is the inducer stage because it is the part of the turbine that collects the gasses. As the energy from the gasses is transferred into the turbine, the gasses slow down and exit the turbine through the exducer stage.
Most people think that the exhaust coming out of the engine smacks into the turbine and gets things moving. Like a pinwheel a kid is blowing against. The air smacks the blades and starts it spinning. Well, that is not quite the case in a turbocharger. You need to take into account the gas laws and how a gas behaves under heat, pressure, and volume. We know that a gas that is compressed heats up and a gas that is uncompressed, cools down. That takes care of heat and pressure. The volume of the gas is determined by the cylinders and other hoopla. So when the gas leaves the cylinder, it gets compressed going through the small exhaust manifold outlet. This is by design. You\'ll see in a minute. As the hot compressed gas exits the exhaust manifold, it enters the turbine inlet - a very small space. At this point, we have very high pressure and very high heat, so our gas has a very high energy level. As it passes through the diffuser and into the turbine housing, it moves from a small space into a large one. Accordingly, it expands, cools, slows down, and dumps all that energy - into the turbine that we\'ve so cleverly positioned in tho housing so that as the gas expands, it pushes against the turbine blades, causing it to rotate.
The exhaust turbine design is a balance between absorbing as much energy from the exhaust gasses as possible and allowing the gasses to flow as easily as possible. This is closely related to the size of the exhaust housing. A larger turbine can absorb more energy from the gasses and spin the shaft with more torque and speed, but too large a turbine will restrict the flow of exhaust such that engine performance is greatly reduced. Typically, the inducer is only slightly larger than the exducer on the exhaust turbine. Generally, you would want to stick with the stock turbine because it\'s size is not nearly as important as the compressor turbine\'s size. If you want to reduce restriction through a smaller housing, you can have the turbine "clipped", which reduces the size of the fins and allows more air to flow around the turbine.
Whew. Boil it down. The exhaust turbine and compressor turbine sizes are engaged in a delicate balancing act. The housing used on both sides plays an important role as well. After all, the housings are what make the compression and expansion chambers needed for manipulating the gas state. One reason for a large exhaust is by lowering the outlet pressure, you increased the pressure differential, and now the exhaust gas can expand more, and do more work. That increased work pushes harder on your turbo, and it spools up faster.
Just simply putting in a smaller exhaust turbine and a larger compressor will not reduce spool time. The amount of energy the inducer/exducer needs to get moving may be offset by the weight of the HUGE compressor wheel you are using on the cold side of the turbo.
Turbo charger work/design is a work of art.
More important than all that opened the last link and was surprised to see my company name (LMC) associated with that speed run:chat:Laugh
hey lee, what sort of power are you putting out at the moment?
Havent got a clue. Last time it was on a dyno made 450 @the wheels @.95 bar now its mapped to 1.4 bar so im guessing about 520ish @ the wheels
thats on pump fuel with w/i or race gas? what sort of terminal speed are you hitting over qtr?
pump fuel with w/i. dont know about terminals yet as havent been down strip since its been done
bet you get pretty early boost on it with your bridgeport, now i see why you said you didnt run anymore boost than 1.4 when he said it wasnt making anymore power, if you wanna run more boost on pump fuel you will need alot more water and also possibly better spark amplifier.
Im guessing aquamist kit and twimpower setup currently?
The boost situation was with my last setup. Current set up is fine full boost by 4400rpm and plenty more room for more power if i want to go down the race fuel route.
about 600bhp on pump fuel is good going, prob max the turbo out on race fuel at 700bhp on 2bar :)
If anyone has a power fc going for sale let me know, it must be a s4 though and its for a 1994 (8bit)
good news progress has started, even if its only a little bit, liam(LI8M) has sourced me a s4 power fc from japan and i should recieve it sometime next week, next up cooling!
again, totally different angle but and interesting read of power figures / moneyz / achievements.....
http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/carreviews/firstdrives/247324/search_for_speed.html
^^^^ very interesting article, though they keep going round the Nardi bowl until they max out, so running out of road is not a problem for them, it would be interesting to see how many of those cars in that test would hit 200mph from a standing start with only a mile and half of road
Quote from: BlitzBoy;666337....it would be interesting to see how many of those cars in that test would hit 200mph from a standing start with only a mile and half of road
Glad you liked Blitzen and indeed at the above ;)
Quote from: BlitzBoy;666337^^^^ very interesting article, though they keep going round the Nardi bowl until they max out, so running out of road is not a problem for them, it would be interesting to see how many of those cars in that test would hit 200mph from a standing start with only a mile and half of road
Something we found out at Bruntingthorp was that standing start vs rolling starts made little difference to top speeds achieved there.
You can take the bottom corner easily at 70mph and have the 1.5 mile streight to go at from there.
A few guys span trying to drift it and their top speeds were near as damn it the same as going round the bend and carrying 60-70 mph on to the streight.
Guess it might be different with a toy that has Veyron equalling power though - at those speeds whole counties go past if you blink slowly.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O9-UF1_1LQE
in this there is an abandoned run to give a view what it looks like, for reference hes changing from third to fourth at 115mph and fourth to fifth at 175mph.
He also mentions you dont really gain anything by taking the corner but saves putting pressure on your diff and gearbox, hence ill be doing it as i dont think a auto diff is rated for a full 700bhp launch lol
Quote from: iaint;666480Something we found out at Bruntingthorp was that standing start vs rolling starts made little difference to top speeds achieved there.
.
With a rolling start of 70mph yes agree very little difference, on the Nardi speed bowl its very different, they have a rolling start of 150 plus hahaha
and have as much distance as they want until they can see the revs in top gear wont go up any more.
For example you might hit 190 after a mile and a half, if you had another two miles you probably get another 10mph maybe
The new Noble weights about 1050kg has 650 hp and has a top speed of 225mph. according to top gear. so maybe aim for that kind of weight drop 200kg,
to be fair weight will help a little bit but its more aero and power that make the most difference.
weight doesnt make hardly any difference for example on nardi, weight just helps with accelaration.
alot of cars at bonnieville actually add weight to the car to keep it stable at high speed
the noble wont hit 225mph at brunters, thats its maximum speed, it will probably hit 200mph though.
a ferrari 599 which has 612bhp and weighs 1690kg and that hit 198mph at brunters
ill imagine that since an fc can hit 220mph with 650bhp then so can my car, not that im saying it can be done at brunters but if the car was stable at nardi then with 700bhp i think 220mph could be hit with the right gearing
Its all about the gears then. aero you already have. weight maybe an issue.
good thread i was just speaking to steve about his engine build and he seems like he knows what his on about, maybe ill get him to build my engine aswell.
i think any weight reduction wont hurt at the end of the day but since ill already be carrying alot of speed onto the main straight it will be less of a factor, i think the car might end up slightly heavier than a stock car, it weighs 1220kg now with running on fumes.
I think the intercooler, rad(extra coolant) big turbo and manifold etc should probably put my back to 1260 then fuel onto of that.
i recommend steve to anybody as he is a genuine nice guy who always has time for anybody and it passionate about what he does, plus i think he is interested in how this will turn out, if maybe a little scared at the prospect of what im gonna do with his engine.
Seems my power fc is still somewhere between japan and england so ill update this thread when it arrives, also gonna change my oil/filter at end of the month and get a compression test to see what numbers this new build gives me
Quote from: JayDee;663537From looking at what i can see from your pics of your ports i would worry about your side seals
jason could you contact me your detail so i can ask you about a rebuild please
yeh and as previously mentioned, that pic is an example of the port franc, not the actual one, steve has taken pics of his template over a stock port, will send them to me and ill stick them up for ya
Quote from: turbotoaster;667131yeh and as previously mentioned, that pic is an example of the port franc, not the actual one, steve has taken pics of his template over a stock port, will send them to me and ill stick them up for ya
thanks no problem i think he was ment to email me yesterday.
well bit of a small random update today, since i got the apexi ecu ive just celotaped it to where my pocket pc is on the left hand side of the gearstick, this was just to monitor is on friday while i top up with fuel and let the ecu learn the idle.
The issue was that it was so far away from my line of sight that i had to take my eyes well away from the road to monitor it, now after really driving into a curb last night while watching my knock readings i decided its better to look for something to attach it to sooner rather than later.
Ill also need it for my top speed runs and i dont want to be looking away from the tarmac for that
So i theres the r magic power fc holder from japan but they are £50 and thats alot for just a piece of plastic, so i started looking at the commander and thought, well its the shape of a phone, why dont i just get a phone holder.
so i started searching the net for one, i found a few that attach to the windscreen but didnt fancy that as people might think its a sat nav and smash my car open when i go to tesco etc.
then i saw the ones that fit to your air vents, better i thought so i sat in the car and looked straight head to see if the vents were in my eye line, not quite.
so i looked at my dash, and thought where is the best place to put it, well i dont smoke and where the cigarette lighter would be good.
so i sat and made a little design on a scrap piece of paper and commited to making myself one during this week.
Anyway i was walking around tesco today and walked past the mobile phone part, decided to have a quick look and what do you know, they had the perfect thing.
Also as an added bonus they reduced them down from £6.84 to £1.99!!
So snapped it up and took it home.
(http://img121.imageshack.us/img121/2331/p25011021380001.jpg)
first things first, cut of the little charger cable that i dont need.
(http://img32.imageshack.us/img32/8336/p25011021390002.jpg)
where fag lighter is
(http://img718.imageshack.us/img718/9689/p25011021360002.jpg)
attached commander to holder
(http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/7958/p25011021400001.jpg)
plug into fag lighter and adjust height
(http://img121.imageshack.us/img121/586/p25011021410001.jpg)
check visability...seems good
(http://img714.imageshack.us/img714/5043/p25011021350001.jpg)
turn lights on for night mode
(http://img121.imageshack.us/img121/1000/p25011021360001.jpg)
a day full on win it seems.
anything that helps me stay in budget is a good day for me
good you got the pfc ok :)
bonus for cheap holder and extra bonus for the fd cig lighter being there lol
yeh i recieved it on friday, just like you promised, have to say to everyone that liam is a pleasure to do business with, always keeps you updated and is honest in what he gets for you, thumbs up!!
since i did get it on the friday i got to my car to the rolling road day to see how the engine was doing
for reference now the engine has done 900miles
running a very rich map(so power lost) running stock boost(10psi) i took some timing out aswell and it made 283bhp at 6900rpm.
This is 400rpm higher than stock and 30bhp more power, so at a very low boost running super rich(11:1 afr)
This shows that my ports are flowing well, id imagine with a bit of adjustment to the fueling and set the timing up better is probably another 20bhp could be gained, so thats 50bhp above stock at same boost (http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/images/smilies/smile.gif)
just need to do a compression test to check everything is bed in correctly and then start saving more money to start putting things together
Hi
Thought I might find a thread on this project on this forum so came for a look. Glad to see all is going well.
Rod
I\'ve got mine velcro\'d in front of the speedo with after 140mph hidden. Its well hidden in the car and I don\'t need to look anywhere but down at the speedo.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v233/shaunwil/DSCF0043.jpg)
Shaun
Quote from: shaunwil;667935I\'ve got mine velcro\'d in front of the speedo with after 140mph hidden. Its well hidden in the car and I don\'t need to look anywhere but down at the speedo.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v233/shaunwil/DSCF0043.jpg)
Shaun
But that\'s the BEST BIT of the speedo you\'re covering ?!??
Swap to the digital readout on the PFC if it goes past that on track !
Shaun
im actually gonna use that for when i do my runs as it reads the highests values of everything so ill be able to see what my logged top speed is off my power fc, im thinking that ill need to pull about 205-206mph on there for it to be 200mph in real life, might make it easier than watching the speedo go off the clock lol
You may be surprised just how accurate it is. The cpu output reading of speed is much more accurate if you have the right rolling radius.
Shaun
ah cool, to be fair i tried it at low speed for a few secs then took it off, ill have to have a drive down the dual carriage way with my gps on and see how accurate it is.
aubec, at what boost did you get 293bhp anyway, im guessing you ran out of fuel?
Quote from: turbotoaster;668134ah cool, to be fair i tried it at low speed for a few secs then took it off, ill have to have a drive down the dual carriage way with my gps on and see how accurate it is.
aubec, at what boost did you get 293bhp anyway, im guessing you ran out of fuel?
0.8 or thereabouts - it spikes a bit. Injector duty in the mid eighties on boost - reckon the injectors probably came with the car, so could probably have mapped a bit higher if I\'d had them cleaned / replaced.
Fuelling / power\'s not my priority at the moment - cooling is! I\'ll probably go to 1680 secondaries and an FPR in the summer and try for another 40 or so horses or go single and aim for 400.
ah cool, was just wondering to compare as i put 283 on a basemap(super rich) with stock downpipe and cat on 0.7bar.
Im guessing your waiting for a koyo rad, how much did that cost you?
On basemap I was pulling only about 250ish, which is why I think my injectors are probably at the end of their useful life.
£248 for the N-flow model (1443N), plus whatever customs whack on that. As soon as it arrives I\'ll update with the price I paid all in. The track and trace says it\'s sitting with customs at the moment.
My PFC reads the boost about 0.1 higher than WGT\'s own boost gauge did while they were mapping. Needs work, but I\'m not pushing it any harder until I\'ve got cooling then fuelling sorted. I hit silly temps on the last two corners of the \'Ring in September (>120deg) and am not going to risk my engine going boom for the sake of 20 horses.
Quote from: turbotoaster;666929i think any weight reduction wont hurt at the end of the day but since ill already be carrying alot of speed onto the main straight it will be less of a factor
Weight makes no difference 50metres gained at the start is only .5 sec longer on the throttle at 200+mph. Trying to take the bend at high speed is not the way too do it either, getting straight quickly is the correct way & a quick car will be faster from a standing start, but harder on the clutch, which is the only reason to use the bend, all proven many times.
Note slow speed entry & using all the road.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hXNzf2kjqc
Quote from: Rod;668239Weight makes no difference 50metres gained at the start is only .5 sec longer on the throttle at 200+mph. Trying to take the bend at high speed is not the way too do it either, getting straight quickly is the correct way & a quick car will be faster from a standing start, but harder on the clutch, which is the only reason to use the bend, all proven many times.
Note slow speed entry & using all the road.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hXNzf2kjqc
Surely weight will effect terminal speed, of course it will.:Hammer
Quote from: Rod;668239Weight makes no difference 50metres gained at the start is only .5 sec longer on the throttle at 200+mph.
But could also be the difference between stopping on the runway and running off onto the grass :driving
Quote from: Rod;668239Weight makes no difference 50metres gained at the start is only .5 sec longer on the throttle at 200+mph. Trying to take the bend at high speed is not the way too do it either, getting straight quickly is the correct way & a quick car will be faster from a standing start, but harder on the clutch, which is the only reason to use the bend, all proven many times.
Note slow speed entry & using all the road.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hXNzf2kjqc
ive been watching that a few times before rod to try and learn the perfect line to take onto the straight, i was actually gonna copy the same lines as that hoping its the best.
Weight will help but like i say, only a very tiny amount
Think about gear ratios and diff ratios.
9000rpm in 5th gear on a stock 4.1 diff ratio is 210mph.
You need taller diff ratio really so that your grunt is in lower rpm rev band.
When racing beat did 243mph with their 3 rotor 3 turbo 900hp car they had such tall gearing that the car needed a push to get it up to a speed so that it could drive.
In the Option speed challenge in NZ some years back a Scoot RX7 did 203.5mph and they used 5 engines that weekend to do it! Each engine was a side port and small PP.
Here is link to the vid http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gqd3l6P3PV4&feature=PlayList&p=2178662A35E970DA&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=50
Regards
Carl
excellent thread mate. seems like youve put a hell of a lot of thought into the build.
personally id go for a gt45 or gt47 turbo as you will not need all your power low down for a top speed run. id have probably went for a larger port aswell such as a bridge, again to move the power further up the rev range and give a few more revs. could always dump a bit of nitrous on top in 5th aswell just to see you onwards to 200 :Laugh.
oh and carl check your emails will ya, i sent you an email today, cant ring you as im at work today.
Quote from: HaywardRotary;668386Think about gear ratios and diff ratios.
9000rpm in 5th gear on a stock 4.1 diff ratio is 210mph.
You need taller diff ratio really so that your grunt is in lower rpm rev band.
When racing beat did 243mph with their 3 rotor 3 turbo 900hp car they had such tall gearing that the car needed a push to get it up to a speed so that it could drive.
In the Option speed challenge in NZ some years back a Scoot RX7 did 203.5mph and they used 5 engines that weekend to do it! Each engine was a side port and small PP.
Here is link to the vid http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gqd3l6P3PV4&feature=PlayList&p=2178662A35E970DA&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=50
Regards
Carl
If you look back carl ive already got this covered, with in gear testing on a gps to make sure its setup correctly.
At 200mph the speedo will read 210mph...it needs 9020rpm to do 200mph on 255/40/17 with a 4.1diff, dont follow your speedo or those gear calculaters.
Racing Beats car was actually geared for 300mph as that was there aim but due to conditions at the event they were limited to 243mph. Since mazda pulled rx7s from sale in USA in 1995 they never had the financial backing to go back and try again
The problem with the scoot car was that when running a t51r spl on such a modified engine it ran out of power to early in the revs, it made maximum power(680bhp) at 1.6bar at 7100rpm yet the car revved to 9800rpm(which means the car wont be making 680bhp that high) so they really should have either lengthened the ratios(since they ran stock ratios) or gone for a bigger turbo.
Also there car was running alot more downforce than mine will because of stability on the B road/wangan which is much different environment.
Trying to do it from a rolling start down a tight bumpy B road is alot harder than a wide open flat airfield, if you look at Rods video of his cosworth, hes already up to high 180s before hes a third of the way down the field.
Quote from: rx jamie;668451excellent thread mate. seems like youve put a hell of a lot of thought into the build.
personally id go for a gt45 or gt47 turbo as you will not need all your power low down for a top speed run. id have probably went for a larger port aswell such as a bridge, again to move the power further up the rev range and give a few more revs. could always dump a bit of nitrous on top in 5th aswell just to see you onwards to 200 :Laugh.
oh and carl check your emails will ya, i sent you an email today, cant ring you as im at work today.
Well the engine was already built before i decided to do this challenge as my original aim for the car was only 500bhp on pump fuel weekend car.
I believe theres no point in going over on the turbo as it will come on boost so late that it will drop out of boost threshold between gears because im limited on revs to below 9k.
I think the turbo im going for meets all my goals, is cheap and spools well enough to make it a decent turbo for a 550bhp pump fuel street car after.
Nitrous has been mentioned to me enough but i think its gonna be enough fun trying to map the car for 700-750bhp without adding that into the situation, if this was a piston engine then id defo have it, but rotarys arnt the strongest when a tune isnt 100% and i dont want to make to many variables or make it to complicated for my mapper
my oils arrived today.
Love that i worked for silkolene, free oils, would have cost me £320 if i needed to buy all that!!
(http://photos-e.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs176.snc3/20337_301855821656_643856656_4023792_7948682_n.jpg)
thats fully syn 15w50 oil
gearbox and diff oil
Bonus :) :):)
.....nab us 4 litres of Pro 4, would you mate? The bike could do with an oil change :Giggle
sorry iv lost on where abouts are you in the budget and est power but some great kit looking good
Jason
£10,000 including buying the car, est power over 700bhp at 2bar of boost, similar one made 671bhp at 1.5bar so 2bar should give some nice numbers
im expecting a powerband similar to this as hes running a streetport
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=crWcHd2D_9o&feature=related, 1bar at 4100rpm which is good going for such a large turbo
Quote from: turbotoaster;670039£10,000 including buying the car, est power over 700bhp at 2bar of boost, similar one made 671bhp at 1.5bar so 2bar should give some nice numbers
im expecting a powerband similar to this as hes running a streetport
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=crWcHd2D_9o&feature=related, 1bar at 4100rpm which is good going for such a large turbo
What plenum are they running?
ross, thats a stock rew plenum with a box welded on to adapt a large single throttle
Any pics/????
Interestng that the dude from RB said about the Aero - I think this is something you really are overlooking dude.
Quote from: DRAGON;670088Any pics/????
ill pm you the link on fduk
Quote from: DRAGON;670088Any pics/????
(http://www.molnsatra.se/bil/tryckror/6.JPG)
there you go ross, its running on a simple no name 80mm throttle body aswell
Quote from: SiH;670101Interestng that the dude from RB said about the Aero - I think this is something you really are overlooking dude.
not really, they used to rear wing to stop the wheelspin at 220mph, unless im suddenly gonna have so much power i can light the rear wheels up on tarmac at 200mph then ill be fine.
also there fc did 238mph on stock aero so its not something to worry about at all
OK dude, but with that and what seems to be no major safety considerations, I\'m genuinely concerned for your safety at those speeds. Not trying to be preachy, but I\'d really rate these as very important things that are being overlooked.
I\'ll shut up now.
/stuck record.
ah dont worry mate, im happy to talk about anything about that, im not completely devoid of risks, im not gonna be doing these speeds on my rear tyres that are currently on it.
Yes they are decent eagle f1s but i dont know there age, so i will by a pair of new 888s for it, they have been run at 210mph a few times so seem to be up to the job, plus ill actually have a little bit of traction coming out of the bottom corner
there has been a bit of a change on the injector front
Another update is ive changed my injector setup to try and give me a more reliable setup, make mapping easier and save some money
There was a few issues with my original idea which i did not foresee.
One was that the additional 1600cc injectors are low impediance which means i would have to install resistors before the injectors, i knew of this and didnt think that was a big deal.
I assumed that would make them act like high imp ones, and my apexi ecu would control them as such(thats normally true) i was gonna trick my ecu into thinking that each injector was infact 2450cc(1600cc+my original 850cc) so that they fire together, the issue is the ecu will end up messing up the transition from small primary 550cc to the 2 big ones and flood the engine.
I have now solved this problem by coming across \'injector dynamics\' 2000cc injectors, they are special injectors that even when the fuel pressure is increased they provide a consistant spray pattern.
by running these at 50psi base pressure they will provide 2500cc each which as i need 6000cc and i have 1000cc in primarys in the car this will be perfect.
(http://i48.tinypic.com/29bdqhk.jpg)
the other benefit is i now dont need to by injector holders to weld into my upper inlet manifold which saves me money, the injectors are more expensive than the 1600cc, but i think its work it for simplicity.
they can get a leaner idle running 4x2000cc on a stock honda non-vtec integra than the 240cc stock ones, thats how good they are :)
are you planning on your pilots licence any time soon............
Plus those are damn sexy looking injectors, that\'s worth an extra 10bhp :)
interested to see how well they work, might jump straight to them myself instead of 1600s if they are so controllable for low flow as well...
Do you need a custom rail for them, or will they fit e.g. The KG parts rail that lots of people use on the FD?
you can choose the type of fitment, to make life easier im gonna have them with the same fitment as 1600 bosch ones so ill either use a kg parts rail or fd3uk, i think im gonna use his because its nice to support UK guys plus ive heard leaking issues on the kg one.
Ive pm\'d him on fduk so ill see what he says
from what ive seen they blow 1600s out of the water, you can even increase fuel pressure all the way up and they flow 3300cc and they are proven to run at that!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RX1xIvOWcNk
the video above shows how good they are
at 130psi they do 3700cc sorry
Yip those are very good injectors, if I ever need more fuel I will change my setup to use these ID injectors
Quote from: turbotoaster;668226Im guessing your waiting for a koyo rad, how much did that cost you?
Picked up the radiator from parcelfarce today - the customs bill was about £38 on top of the £248 I paid the seller, so thats
£286 all in, for the R1443N (N-flow model).
Quote from: BlitzBoy;670285Yip those are very good injectors, if I ever need more fuel I will change my setup to use these ID injectors
thought this info might be useful for you, dont know if you already know it but thought id share it anyway.
If you decide to order yourself some in the future you will need the 60mm length with the 14mm top oring.
got some data on flow at different fuel pressures from my supplier.
(http://img42.imageshack.us/img42/8660/injectorflow.jpg)
turned it into a little graph and seems pretty stable when you up the pressure:Giggle
(http://img33.imageshack.us/img33/3056/injectorgraph.jpg)
thanks. its all on there website :WaveBye
my new intercooler arrived today so i thought id chuck some pics up.
Now originally i had decided to go with a 70mm thick rs500 intercooler, the reason for this is that it would fit pretty well into the enginebay and is known to flow well for 700bhp.
When i was chatting to my manifold guy on msn he mentioned inlet/outlet sizes, i said well the standard cossie is 2.5inch throttle body and the rs500 was 3inch from what i had been told, so if its aimed at the 700bhp market then it will have 3inch pipes(it didnt say on the website) He recommended i check with them just incase.
I emailed them and they confirmed that they were infact only 2.5inch......since the outlet of my turbo is already being reduced from 3.5in to 3inch i didnt want to go down in size again, asking how much it would be to cut them off and weld in 3in he said £60-80, which would take the price of the cooler up to £370 which in my eyes was to much as i would have to make savings somewhere else to hit budget.
So then i looked at other options and come across this cooler i now have recieved.
They retail at £180 on ebay but luckily they had on that was on auction, with a bid of sniping i got it for £72!! Now i again need some work doing to it but its a big saving over the other cooler
the core is 600mmx290mmx120mm...yep its a thick one.
it has a larger overall capacity than the 70mm cooler and ive seen it push 900bhp in america so hopefully it will do the job for me.
(http://img690.imageshack.us/i/p26021008010001.jpg)(http://img690.imageshack.us/img690/8200/p26021008010001.jpg)
big box arrives this morning!
(http://img200.imageshack.us/img200/9177/p26021008040001.jpg)
woohoo, no damage anywhere
(http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/877/p26021008050001.jpg)
its rather thick
(http://img251.imageshack.us/img251/1373/p26021008100001.jpg)
its also rather bloody heavy!
(http://img52.imageshack.us/img52/9682/p26021008150001.jpg)
put in hot water for 10mins to test for any air leaks, seems fine:Thumbs-up
(http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/5946/p26021009590001.jpg)
compared to standard cooler
now just need to do some measurements to compare it on the car to see what needs to be modded to fit
(http://img690.imageshack.us/i/p26021008010001.jpg)
I\'m guessing you\'re going front mount rather than V then?
yeh, ive just taken some measurements, i dont think it will fit in my engine bay, well it will but wont be low enough to get all the air first, i need to find a car with an empty engine bay, i was thinking of ringing pip to see if he has any cars hes rebuilding at the moment so i could see what its like, cant really do it with mine as id have to have the intercooler and rad out and then have to stick it all back in again after.
ive just been outside thought to confirm all my measurements and they are what i thought
the battery box sits 230mm high, the distance between the headlights is 810mm and the distance between the chassis rails is 710mm
Now this actually kind of solves a problem i thought i might come against with this cooler, since its nearly 5inches thick you get the problem that there isnt enough decent air getting to the rad and your water temps go up.
but because this cooler will sit quite high in the engine bay(same height as the battery box as stock) you will be able to get straight fresh air to about half the rad, the other half will pass through the cooler first.
(http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/1760/intercoolermeasurements.jpg)
this is a pic to try and help, the inlets will be cut off and then rewelded pointing backwards(backdoor if you will)
the only thing then is air always finds the path of least resistance so im gonna have to have a think on how i can force air to go through the cooler and not bypass it for the easier option of the rad
The front mount IC i use, has 3" gaps each side of it, the rad is behind and is ducted to get the rest of the air as well as what goes through the IC. I ducted my radiator temporarily using jablite glue and duct tape, and i have noted my crusing temps are around 10- 15 degrees lower, you will be suprised at how many holes you can blank off to create higher pressure in front of the rad, IC. using duct tape for now just to see how it goes. 10 quid all in for ducting the rad
Wouldn\'t you have to go V-mount with that intercooler. It looks like a very tight air gap and you may find you get no real airflow behind it for a radiator. The FD ones are very free flowing.
Shaun
Quote from: shaunwil;675356The FD ones are very free flowing.
Shaun
do mean that the intercoolers you can buy for the fd are free flowing, ie the blitz ones? or something else.
Im at work at the moment, but ill draw the exact setup what it will look like from a side angle so you can see it when i get home tonight.
but roughly 1/2 the radiator will be covered by the intercooler, it will also be in the engine bay like the blitz one
The space between the cores are much bigger on the front mounts to allow more flow through the core to the radiator behind.
Shaun
or u can do this :rollin
(http://www.zerotohundred.com/newforums/attachments/cars-for-sale/158738-rx-7-fd3s-for-sale-dcp_9743.jpg)
well im trying to avoid putting it into the bumper as it means longer pipework, its a big cooler and big turbo so i want to minimize distance the air has to travel if i can.
due to the size of the cooler it seems there space i have in the engine bay is where the battery box starts and also where it ends which is 266mm
the cooler is 120mm, rad is 73mm and id say the fans are 60mm but if anyone can confirm there width for me that would be brilliant....thats 253mm so im cutting it fine.
if i were to put it in the bumper i would backdoor the intercooler it anyway as the oil coolers get in the way trying to do it like the picture above.....plus it looks horrible!
here is an idea, what do you think
(http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/4291/anotherpicture.jpg)
since the cooler shape means at its widest it will be around 810mm(where the inlets would be welded) there are other areas where is narrower, so it could be mounted completely flat and one end me closer to the front of the car as its only 290mm in height so at worst i could mount it in a vmount configuration, but then ill need to look after bonnets because i dont believe i can but 2bar of boost through it and it have no path to release the hot air
The air ill predominantly take the path of least resistance - I\'d got for a conventional setup.
With the setup above you are creating an inverse funnel before the IC, lowering the pressure, and therefore the speed at which the air flows through to the low pressure area in the bay.
But if you want to do the above, I\'d make sure you can adjust the angle of the divider to optimise the balance.
As for the pipework length - don\'t get hung up on it - in the real world it makes very little tangible difference. Even if it does, it will predominantly be in resonse, and as that\'s not what you are chasing, it\'d be sort of irrelevant - maximum cooling is the goal, surely?
very true, the alloy plate to split the air was just an idea if one of the 2 temps went out of the range i wanted, or if the air ignored to intercooler and chose the easier option of the rad.
there is the option of doing this, looking at the picture id say it was about the same size, i just need to be careful that we can fit my big turbo and have room infront of it to fit my water injection
(http://i338.photobucket.com/albums/n417/TRD05243/IMG_0186.jpg)
my only concern to be fair aswell was the radiator in vmount config, because im trying to stay on budget and i dont want to start welding the rad as thats not cheap, plus i need someone to make me brackets, i might speak to steve and see what he would want to charge me, since i moved out of my folks ive got no tools, just a box of sockets mostly
I managed to use a koyo N-Flow in a V config - if I can do it with an unmodified one of those, you can deffo do it with an OEM one.
do you have any pics of your waterpipe setup just so i can have a look, my concern with a vmount is that the where the rad/intercooler meet that it will be so far back in the engine bay that there will be no room for my water injection infront of my turbo as due to the size of the compressor housing the front of the turbo will be inline with the front of the top water pipe.
saying that, by fitting it in fmic in the engine bay that might also be the case:mad:
Interesting read on pre-turbo setup.
http://www.rx7club.com/showthread.php?t=663979
http://www.aquamist.co.uk/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=267&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0&sid=17871242657337781b7db7b268de2a41
Shaun
Quote from: SiH;675558As for the pipework length - don\'t get hung up on it - in the real world it makes very little tangible difference. Even if it does, it will predominantly be in resonse, and as that\'s not what you are chasing, it\'d be sort of irrelevant - maximum cooling is the goal, surely?
so so so so true
Quote from: shaunwil;675617Interesting read on pre-turbo setup.
http://www.rx7club.com/showthread.php?t=663979
http://www.aquamist.co.uk/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=267&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0&sid=17871242657337781b7db7b268de2a41
Shaun
yeh good links them are, dudemaaanownsanrx7 on rx7club has developed a fully mechanical kit(no electrical pump) you can buy now, and since its everything i would buy myself its easier to just get it all from him.
the good thing about preturbo is it extends the turbo effesiancy because the temps coming out of the compressor stay cooler, ie doesnt blow air out that hot that it loses its density and you end up not making no extra power.
Now to say you can make 1000bhp with a gt35, but you will get more power at higher boost, probably not much difference at say 0.9bar, but 1.3plus would be beneficial.
Also takes a bit of a strain off the intercooler as the inlet temps will be less to the cooler, then once it has passed through the cooler and the water has cooled down it can enter the engine to help against knock.
on my engine ill be running 375cc at 15psi, 500cc at 20psi and 750cc at 30psi, the good bit about the kit is you dont need to adjust anything when you change the boost, you run more boost and it pushes more water:Thumbs-up
Little update, my quickshift arrived today, yes it wont have any benefits for top speed but just fancied one.
(http://img168.imageshack.us/img168/9606/p20031013390001.jpg)
simple design
(http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/2717/p20031013430001.jpg)
Its actually a B&M replica but its actually better than the real thing because the real ones are made out of aluminum, yes thats great for weight but there is a flaw in that the material isnt strong enough in my opinion, infact i snapped one in half at the drag strip so i know it isnt.
The replicas are made all steel so while they are heavier, they are also stronger.
ok time to install!!
stock
(http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/9606/p20031014130001.jpg)
remove gearknob, just unscrews
(http://img690.imageshack.us/img690/1343/p20031014140001.jpg)
remove covering
(http://img716.imageshack.us/img716/3183/p20031014150001.jpg)
remove rubber sound deadening/wind resistance thingy
(http://img534.imageshack.us/img534/9526/p20031014270001.jpg)
remove stick and bolts hold in, hit with hammer to break seal, becareful of gear oil going everywhere
(http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/5275/p20031014410001.jpg)
pull plastic boot off original and fit to new quick shift
(http://img253.imageshack.us/img253/4205/p20031014410002.jpg)
bolt new quickshift down with supplied washers and bolts
(http://img718.imageshack.us/img718/6600/p20031014520001.jpg)
replace rubber covers, replace big plastic cover, reconnect switches, good as new
(http://img242.imageshack.us/img242/5383/p20031015120001.jpg)
Well first impressions, my god!! Its so short and feels like im using a completely different box, gonna take some practice on the gear changes as it is very notchy, reminds me of a HKS dog box in a GTR that i once drove, it should settle down as i break it in but feels pretty mad at the moment!
Also taken all the slack out of the gear change so theres no movement at all
Will hopefully have another update on monday
so, whats the spend so far then?
well at the moment its:
car 3000
engine build 3000
coilovers 300
power fc 450
intercooler 72
radiator 100
so 6922 at the moment.
im looking at £1500 for the turbo full kit incl exhaust
£400 for ignition system
£200 for w/i
£800 for fuel pumps/injectors rail etc
£120 for rear tyres
so that puts me at £9942
so im cutting it really fine but so we shall see how we go
iv been really looking forward to this thread and seeing the end result....need more pics lol
Kris
your wish is my command fd3s Efini!!
radiator arrived today so i did some marking up to see if my theory matched real life
Another ebay purchase
(http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/7091/p23031021120001.jpg)
No damage
(http://img248.imageshack.us/img248/6755/p23031021140001.jpg)
thickness of end tanks
(http://img51.imageshack.us/img51/485/p23031021160001.jpg)
thickness of core
(http://img535.imageshack.us/img535/7060/p23031021170001.jpg)
Marking up placement
(http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/3708/p23031022070001.jpg)
Pretty tight!!
(http://img353.imageshack.us/img353/9519/p23031022060001.jpg)
Checking for leaks
(http://img248.imageshack.us/img248/4322/p23031022230001.jpg)
One the issues with running an intercooler of 120mm thickness is that you struggle to cool the water temps due to the restriction of air getting to the radiator.
By only covering half the radiator with the rad you gain the benefit of a thick intercooler and alot of air passing though the rad, thats my theory behind why this should work so fingers crossed.
Just need to get my intercooler over the local aluminum welding place to cut it to my specs:D
Surely the fabrication involved in your FMIC arrangement is tantamount to that of a V-mount? Why not just invest the time in a v-mount?
2nd q: What IC is that? Most good FM intercoolers are designed to pass sufficient air through it to the rad such as the Greddy 3 core or Apexi GT.
Good luck as usual
the issue i have with v mounts is the piping of it, ive not seen a walk through guide of someone doing it.
Also i dont want to have to pay for my rad to get modded as its an expense i can do without.
Have you seen builds with v mounts where the rad isnt modded?
2. Its a Trust replica of a drag skyline GTR intercooler, ive seen them run in USA/OZ at 1000bhp so should be fine for me
What modifications are you referring to re. the rad in a v-mount- are you talking about brackets? V-mount is just an arrangement, the stock rx7 rad pretty much sits in the v position out of the factory but I\'m sure you could jig it to be into a more desirable (space conscious) position.
If the IC is designed properly then there\'s no real need for the half exposure theory imho, an FMIC should be exposed to as much air as poss but if your ducting is good then shouldn\'t be a problem.
what i mean to say is your changing the rad from this / to \\ that means inlet/outlet pipes etc will all be in the wrong places, unless someone can show me an easy way of running longer water piping it means modding the inlets which cost money.
The intercooler will receive air over its full exposure, its just how my setup is done is that the lower 50% of the rad would also receive pure air.
Its designed for piston engines which dont have over heating problems such as the rotary hence why im conscious of blocking to much airflow to the rad
Got bored today so decided to put the battery in the boot, it needed doing to make room for my intercooler/rad setup
Sorry for lack of pics going through it all but it was raining hard and didnt want to spend forever outside
removed from engine bay and ran live feed to rear of car
(http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/212/p28031013140001.jpg)
bolted tray down to chassis then built everything else back up, connect live and ran earth wire to a bolt hole near by
(http://img514.imageshack.us/img514/5051/p28031013150001.jpg)
What\'s the quality of the rad like?..I\'ve been looking for a new up-rated one but the ones on e-bay just seem to cheap to be any good?.
Look at item number 160377315042 for example..£129incl!..Just cant be very good surely?
Quote from: gavink;683082What\'s the quality of the rad like?..I\'ve been looking for a new up-rated one but the ones on e-bay just seem to cheap to be any good?.
Look at item number 160377315042 for example..£129incl!..Just cant be very good surely?
the welding could be slightly neater but apart from that its spot on, seen it on many cars and seems to be pretty effective, alot more than standard ones and should keep up with all the expensive ones.
A few people on here have got them from different vendors, they are all made at the same place so just find the cheapest place.
I looked around and got it for £109 inc delivery, if your looking on ebay, look at item number 400111401777 thats the same one ive got at the same price, very fast delivery aswell:D
You will find alot that companys copy established manufactors designs and then sell them much cheaper, yes its not fair but ill happily take advantage of that just like everyone else.
For example my quick shift for £30 is a B&M replica which i bet was normally £150
Quote from: turbotoaster;683089For example my quick shift for £30 is a B&M replica which i bet was normally £150
I know i got one after looking at yours on hear and FDUK :guinness
Just looked at the one for £99, I\'m so tempted to order one but I\'m just worried it will/must be crap...Just looked on MRP and the koyo rad is £375+vat, how can one for £99 even come close in quality or cooling capability?
if you spend 6 months designing a radiator, testing different designs, flow rates to come up with the best possible, you employ loads of people, spent many hours on R&D, employ top guys to achieve results.
The you have to advertise around the world, sponsor teams and also make a big enough profit to make your shareholders happy.
2 months later someone gets one of your rads, takes it to china and asks a company to make an exact replica(sizes and everything) with very cheap labour.....thats what happens.
You get another company to pay to design it and then you steal there idea, capitalism at its finiest!
theres a few on fduk who run them and have stated they are running cooler water temps than standard.
Id get one, i can take more close up pics if you like?
i was looking at getting a toyo rad,but if a £100 rad pretty much does the same job,as feed back from many people on here is good,id rather go for flee bay all the way,
turbotoaster does the rad you brought, replace the stock
Quote from: John RX7;683125i was looking at getting a toyo rad,but if a £100 rad pretty much does the same job,as feed back from many people on here is good,id rather go for flee bay all the way,
turbotoaster does the rad you brought, replace the stock
yes it does replace the stock one, though it doesnt have a hole at the bottom of the rad for the AST pipe, but i dont run one anyway so doesnt concern me.
If you are putting it in the stock position it will fit fine, the only thing you may have to adjust is if your running a stock mount intercooler because of the thickness of the rad the intercooler may sit a little higher than stock.
What type of cooler are you running and ill tell you the effects
i have one of those ebay rads that i bought & never bothered fitting for some reason??
If its of use to one of you u can have it for £60 delivered?
Email me at lum-90@hotmail.co.uk
also that rad has been run on steve rivetts trackcar that gets thrashed by his son who races cars, ie is flat out reving to 8k and pushing it much harder than most of us can and have no problems with temps from using this radiator.....£60 from Lum is a bargain!! wish i had known about it as i would have bought it to save myself £50!!
ok next part of my ebay part special build arrived today :)
The elbow that bolts onto my throttle body, as previously mentioned the reason im going for this is to maintain my pipework size so that there is no airflow restrictions which in theory will maximise the air entering the inlet manifold, i know the differences are minimal, but as a famous supermarket once said, every little helps!
Got it £79 delivered which was the cheapest around i could find it
(http://img683.imageshack.us/img683/7712/p07041008190001.jpg)
looks like this is the company thats paying china for it
(http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/1074/p07041008210001.jpg)
have to say, casting internally is pretty poor, so im gonna spend this afternoon with some sand paper and smooth it all out
(http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/2150/p07041008190002.jpg)
heres what i mean about there being an internal step, this is the point at which im gonna cut it off, hence losing the narrow part
(http://img697.imageshack.us/img697/4610/p07041008190003.jpg)
Checking its the same size as my intercooler...good to go!!
(http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/6260/p07041008220001.jpg)
Not sure what to do next, either order my 2 fuel pumps or mod my intercooler so i can fit it with my rad, will have a think about when i next get paid
i bought one of those elbows for my car, must say mine is a bit better on the inside, however i am going to be smothing it out. Not just yet though as i am still to get the rest of the bits for my single turbo.
Have you thought about having your throttle body ported and polished? I was thinking of getting this done to increase airflow, however i am not sure how much it costs and who in the uk would do it? Was just a thought towards your 200mph goal, as you said before "every little helps"
already done, its on page 1
(http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/2760/port4s.jpg)
steve rivett did all my porting, he also ported out all my UIM/LIM for me aswell those pics are also on page 1 :)
well for porting my plates, housings, UIM/LIM and throttle body, he charges £400, so i think about £150-£200 for the UIM/LIM and throttle body......not sure how much for the throttle body on its own
have just measured that reducing piece, 2 3/8 of an inch!! will definately be chopping that off when i put it in my car. Thanks for pointing out the obvious!
May well see if we can weld another longer piece, of the same diameter, back on so i dont have as much silicone hose!
Hi turbotoaster.
Are you having to get some upper mounts welded to the radiator as they dont have them :2Confused
Quote from: Grant Monkhouse;685473have just measured that reducing piece, 2 3/8 of an inch!! will definately be chopping that off when i put it in my car. Thanks for pointing out the obvious!
May well see if we can weld another longer piece, of the same diameter, back on so i dont have as much silicone hose!
im assuming your intercooler pipes are 3 inch then? if your running stock size pipes there isnt really a need to cut it off.
my outlet on the turbo is 3.5inch and im reducing that down to 80mm OD, and keeping that size all the way through, if you only running a small turbo or intercooler piping its not really worth it.
Quote from: gavink;685583Hi turbotoaster.
Are you having to get some upper mounts welded to the radiator as they dont have them :2Confused
nope, the intercooler will be sitting vertically behind the rad, wont need upper mounts
Yes they are 3 inch. The elbow will only be gong on when I get my single trbo bits, the turbo I am getting will be a 4094 so 2 3/8 of in inch will be too small for the outlet on that trbo, I think. Also the outlet for my intercooler is 3 inch so would be a bit daft reducing it back down. Not too worried about it yet as I still have few things to but, including the turbo, which isn\'t cheap!
Must have missed the pctures of your ported t/b as been a while since a read the first page. Will have a look back through though.
How much material has been taken out of the t/b? That looks really good, will deffinately get mine ported out when going single as I am running very large stree ports, maybe somewhere near to the size of yours.
I am using my Iphone for the internet so I can post a reply quicker than the pictures upload. Hope you succeed in reaching 200 on your budget, makes me think how silly I was to put a full veulside bodykit on my car when I could have spent more money on the perfomance, but then again my car wouldn\'t look as good as it does.
Quote from: turbotoaster;685610nope, the intercooler will be sitting vertically behind the rad, wont need upper mounts
Whats holding the rad up then ?
Quote from: Grant Monkhouse;685640Yes they are 3 inch. The elbow will only be gong on when I get my single trbo bits, the turbo I am getting will be a 4094 so 2 3/8 of in inch will be too small for the outlet on that trbo, I think. Also the outlet for my intercooler is 3 inch so would be a bit daft reducing it back down. Not too worried about it yet as I still have few things to but, including the turbo, which isn\'t cheap!
Must have missed the pctures of your ported t/b as been a while since a read the first page. Will have a look back through though.
ah cool, i dont really know anything about your car, have you got a build thread or some pics for me to have a nose at?
if you havent bought the turbo then i wouldnt, get a borgwarner turbo, will do the same thing as the garrett while being ALOT cheaper, do you have a power goal?
Quote from: Grant Monkhouse;685643How much material has been taken out of the t/b? That looks really good, will deffinately get mine ported out when going single as I am running very large stree ports, maybe somewhere near to the size of yours.
I am using my Iphone for the internet so I can post a reply quicker than the pictures upload. Hope you succeed in reaching 200 on your budget, makes me think how silly I was to put a full veulside bodykit on my car when I could have spent more money on the perfomance, but then again my car wouldn\'t look as good as it does.
we both have large street ports so will be good to see how we compare:D who did your build?
Im not sure how much was taken out, quite a bit looking at it, the most important bit is to make a sharp point to split the air so theres less turbulence, also why dont you port the throttle body and remove the secondary throttles while your there, thats gotta help loads, use my pics for reference!
Quote from: gavink;685789Whats holding the rad up then ?
theres 2 dowls at the bottom of the cooler, make 2 brackets with a hole in each for the dowls to go in, also bend a 90* on the bracket that sits at the back of the cooler so it cant fall backwards, ill try and draw you a picture
here you go, hope this helps
(http://img188.imageshack.us/img188/1591/radbrackets.jpg)
the bracket is all one piece, but found it hard to draw to show that
Haven\'t got a build thread or anything, will send you some pictures this weekend if I get the time.
Haven\'t bought the turbo yet as the 4094 is really expensive but may be able to get it cheaper than retail price. Haven\'t heard anything about the borgwarner turbos? Are they a ballbearing turbo or a normal journal bearing? How much cheaper are they?
Hayward rotary built my engine but my dad did the porting on it before we took my car and bits down to him to be built, apparently they are bigger than what carl does with the porting.
I don\'t have a power goal, will be happy with what it has when the tub is on
Not too sure about taking the double throttles out as I use my car all year round, even in the snow so don want to accdentally Cain the car when it\'s not fully warmed up when some ....ty impreza thinks he has a fast car!
Quote from: Grant Monkhouse;685897Haven\'t got a build thread or anything, will send you some pictures this weekend if I get the time.
Haven\'t bought the turbo yet as the 4094 is really expensive but may be able to get it cheaper than retail price. Haven\'t heard anything about the borgwarner turbos? Are they a ballbearing turbo or a normal journal bearing? How much cheaper are they?
Hayward rotary built my engine but my dad did the porting on it before we took my car and bits down to him to be built, apparently they are bigger than what carl does with the porting.
I don\'t have a power goal, will be happy with what it has when the tub is on
How come your looking at the 4094, im guessing your after well over 500bhp, a gt4088 did 530bhp at 1.2bar which is a smaller turbo.
personally i wouldnt bother paying garrett prices unless it was on offer in america, i can get a gt42 for £600 plus shipping so i think thats reasonable, anymore than that and your getting your pants pulled down, massive rotary EGTs arnt a BB turbos best friend neither.
Well on the turbo choice and price there are two things i need to ask you, will you plan on run big boost on race gas in the future....say at santa pod, or will this only ever run low boost on pump fuel?
Also you say you dont have a power goal in mind but you must have a rough idea.......if i offered you 400bhp or 600bhp which would you choose?
Quote from: Grant Monkhouse;685898Not too sure about taking the double throttles out as I use my car all year round, even in the snow so don want to accdentally Cain the car when it\'s not fully warmed up when some ....ty impreza thinks he has a fast car!
for me it doesnt have any negative effects on how the car drives, i got rid of all the cold start stuff, ill just let the engine throw in fuel as normal while its warming up, dont really need it any more.
I used mine over winter, even driving sideways everywhere at 5mph in the snow
Quote from: Grant Monkhouse;685898Not too sure about taking the double throttles out as I use my car all year round, even in the snow so don want to accdentally Cain the car when it\'s not fully warmed up when some ....ty impreza thinks he has a fast car!
This made me laugh:rollin
Just let them past lol...
Get an oil temp gauge and dont give it some untill its nice and warm. Simple!.
Quote from: turbotoaster;685853here you go, hope this helps
(http://img188.imageshack.us/img188/1591/radbrackets.jpg)
the bracket is all one piece, but found it hard to draw to show that
Way above me, ill wait untill its fitted then have a look at the pictures :King
Quote from: gavink;686069This made me laugh:rollin
Just let them past lol...
thers no chance im ever going to let an ugly impreza drive past me when i know his car is rubbish!:Giggle I am going to go out and fing a new GTR skyline line is around huddersfield and show him that his 50,000 pound car isnt all that too. LOL. As i reckon power to weight ratios will be somewhere near the same.
Quote from: turbotoaster;686065How come your looking at the 4094, im guessing your after well over 500bhp, a gt4088 did 530bhp at 1.2bar which is a smaller turbo.
personally i wouldnt bother paying garrett prices unless it was on offer in america, i can get a gt42 for £600 plus shipping so i think thats reasonable, anymore than that and your getting your pants pulled down, massive rotary EGTs arnt a BB turbos best friend neither.
Well on the turbo choice and price there are two things i need to ask you, will you plan on run big boost on race gas in the future....say at santa pod, or will this only ever run low boost on pump fuel?
Also you say you dont have a power goal in mind but you must have a rough idea.......if i offered you 400bhp or 600bhp which would you choose?
for me it doesnt have any negative effects on how the car drives, i got rid of all the cold start stuff, ill just let the engine throw in fuel as normal while its warming up, dont really need it any more.
I used mine over winter, even driving sideways everywhere at 5mph in the snow
Well if i could get 600bhp and the car be as driveable as it is then that would be brilliant, a gt42 would probably be too big for my car, wouldnt want a huge kick in the arse when the turbo spools up.
The reason i want the 4094 is that a lot of people go for the 4088(journal) and i want to have something different.
My engine isnt built for huge amounts of boost, have been told that the mapping for the gt4094 would be around 0.7-0.9 of a bar as you dont have to run a lot of boost to get a lot out of a large frame turbo.
Will you be downsizing your turbo after you acheive 200mph? If so what will you be going for?
I went down to the cinemas in my car in the snow, car park was solid ice and released the clutch on tickover and went pratically around the car park sideways. Drifting at 1mph was prety funn!!!
You shouldnt be thrashing a cold engine anyway, whether it has the butterflies in or not....its to avoid the worst of the effects, not all of them.
well a 480bhp rx7 is faster on track than a new gtr tuned to 630bhp, power to weight makes a big difference, but probably getting good traction out of the corner is what wins the day, this is where the skyline shines.
if you want to see that race i can probably find you a link for it.
Quote from: Grant Monkhouse;686238Well if i could get 600bhp and the car be as driveable as it is then that would be brilliant, a gt42 would probably be too big for my car, wouldnt want a huge kick in the arse when the turbo spools up.
The reason i want the 4094 is that a lot of people go for the 4088(journal) and i want to have something different.
My engine isnt built for huge amounts of boost, have been told that the mapping for the gt4094 would be around 0.7-0.9 of a bar as you dont have to run a lot of boost to get a lot out of a large frame turbo.
Will you be downsizing your turbo after you acheive 200mph? If so what will you be going for?
I went down to the cinemas in my car in the snow, car park was solid ice and released the clutch on tickover and went pratically around the car park sideways. Drifting at 1mph was prety funn!!!
there is no point going for a 4094 just so you can run 0.1bar less than a 4088 \'just to be different\' getting a journal bearing 4088 will be fine for what you want if high 400s is your aim, they give a wide powerband and produce decent power.
a gt35 is on full boost at 3500rpm and a gt4088 will be on full boost by 4k max, that will give you a 4krpm powerband, more than enough.
having a big turbo only really makes sense in my eyes for big boost as thats when you benefit the most.
You need to balance power against powerband, your ports will probably be like mine, i should be 1bar of boost at 4.5krpm and 20psi at 4.7-4.8krpm thats for a 550bhp on pump fuel turbo could you live with that, or would you like it earlier at the cost of power?
I wont be downsizing the turbo as im fine with having a powerband of 5krpm-9krpm
Tbh I could lIve with that, but would a gt42 bE too big for that? As LNG ad the car is driveable I would be happy witht it( I have driven my car with the intercooler pipes blown off and it was quick to 5000rp bt after that prety rubbish so I guess I could live with a bit of lag.
Is the gt42 you can get a garett?
Think I need to look more into turbo technolgy, don\'t know enough apart from he way they work
if your looking at a gt42 then get a borgwarner s475 with a t4 1.10 A/R rear housing, will do same power as gt42 will do, spool about 300-400rpm earlier and costs £523 plus shipping.
that will hit 1bar at 4.5k(which is the boost you will run) if you want 1bar at 4k then run a 0.90 rear, it shouldnt be restrictive as your only running pump fuel boost
Im gonna use a t6 housing which is larger and cheaper(£406) but it means im gonna have to have someone make me a manifold as you cant get a premade one with a t6 flange on.
Saying that if i could get a ebay manifold braced up then id use a t4 version but the wastegate pipe isnt big enough for the wastegate i want
i think you would do best to ask someone who has used one of these ion the uk and get their experiences...and go from that tbh...as there are quite a few variable to consider.
Quote from: Grant Monkhouse;686336Tbh I could lIve with that, but would a gt42 bE too big for that? As LNG ad the car is driveable I would be happy witht it( I have driven my car with the intercooler pipes blown off and it was quick to 5000rp bt after that prety rubbish so I guess I could live with a bit of lag.
Is the gt42 you can get a garett?
Think I need to look more into turbo technolgy, don\'t know enough apart from he way they work
had a look at the gt4088 specs and a close one to that is the s466 with a t4 housing at £643 plus shipping.
I went of 6 different cars ed with streetports for my rpm figures, i know every setup is different but just trying to give the guy an estimation, i think really unless your after massive power then a gt42 is a very big turbo but im not really sure how much power he wants and how big powerband he wants.
Im happy having 5k-9k but he might not.
Oh yeh Ed did you get my pm on fduk, best ive found it abroad is $775
Im gonna use a t6 housing which is larger and cheaper(£406) but it means im gonna have to have someone make me a manifold as you cant get a premade one with a t6 flange on.
Saying that if i could get a ebay manifold braced up then id use a t4 version but the wastegate pipe isnt big enough for the wastegate i want[/quote]
The ebay manifolds look good, and for the the 125quid i paid for the one off ebay you cant go wrong, would it be easier and cheaper for you to take one of these manifolds, chop off the flange and wastegate pipe and have the correct pieces welded on?By doing this you could put your turbo into a better place for airflow and physically fitting it in there?
when i said my car was rubbish after 5000rpm with the intercooler pipe blown off, i meant that i was expecting the turbos to keep giving me that increased go forward.
Quote from: turbotoaster;686352had a look at the gt4088 specs and a close one to that is the s466 with a t4 housing at £643 plus shipping.
there are 4088\'s on ebay in the uk for 600 quid delivered, i thought that was a reasonable price, but i asked for peoples opinions on these on this site and quite a few people said they were great and that is what they will be going for when they go single. This put me off a bit as i would like to have something different to everyone else, sounds stupid as everyones setup is different and goals are different, but that is the way i see things. LOL.
I went of 6 different cars ed with streetports for my rpm figures, i know every setup is different but just trying to give the guy an estimation, i think really unless your after massive power then a gt42 is a very big turbo but im not really sure how much power he wants and how big powerband he wants.
Im happy having 5k-9k but he might not.
with the area i live in i dont get out 2nd gear too much due to speed bumps every ten metres!! and a speed camera in between each! when i get onto a clear patch i want to plant my foot and go like a rocket! :3gears-rh
An rpm range of 4k-8k would probably be where i want the power band.
with a bb turbo would i not get on full boost up to 1000rpm earlier? Thus giving me a wider power range?
Quote from: Grant Monkhouse;686360Im gonna use a t6 housing which is larger and cheaper(£406) but it means im gonna have to have someone make me a manifold as you cant get a premade one with a t6 flange on.
Saying that if i could get a ebay manifold braced up then id use a t4 version but the wastegate pipe isnt big enough for the wastegate i want
The ebay manifolds look good, and for the the 125quid i paid for the one off ebay you cant go wrong, would it be easier and cheaper for you to take one of these manifolds, chop off the flange and wastegate pipe and have the correct pieces welded on?By doing this you could put your turbo into a better place for airflow and physically fitting it in there?[/quote]
oooo you have one, can you do me a favour and measure the size of the manifold pipe, ive tried looking around and couldnt find the size of it anywhere.
to be fair the amount of work that would be needing doing to it to meet my needs i dont think there would be much of the original left lol
Quote from: Grant Monkhouse;686362Quote from: turbotoaster;686352there are 4088\'s on ebay in the uk for 600 quid delivered, i thought that was a reasonable price, but i asked for peoples opinions on these on this site and quite a few people said they were great and that is what they will be going for when they go single. This put me off a bit as i would like to have something different to everyone else, sounds stupid as everyones setup is different and goals are different, but that is the way i see things. LOL.
with the area i live in i dont get out 2nd gear too much due to speed bumps every ten metres!! and a speed camera in between each! when i get onto a clear patch i want to plant my foot and go like a rocket! :3gears-rh
An rpm range of 4k-8k would probably be where i want the power band.
the reason everyone is going for a gt4088 is because its a good turbo, does pretty much everything you could want, should be on full boost by about 4k which is what you want, easy to fix if it goes wrong, ok i know you want to be individual but no point turning down something perfect for you just because other people have it.
Id only look at other brands of turbos when you start looking more into it, i wouldnt go any larger than a 88mm compressor wheel
Its hard to judge when you havent got a power in mind, but going off your rpm range then id ay gt4088 is the size you want.
And at the price they are theres no point really looking elsewhere unless we speak to Ed about masterpower turbos, hes pretty good at getting them
with them id go for the T70 with the T4 0.96 divided rear housing, those are £415 plus shipping, ive emailed him about another turbo so when he responds ill ask him for you
Quote from: Grant Monkhouse;686363with a bb turbo would i not get on full boost up to 1000rpm earlier? Thus giving me a wider power range?
no, you may gain a few hundred rpms, but for double the cost and also if it breaks you pretty much have to pay the price of a brand new turbo to get it fixed i dont think its worth it.
I will take a measurement of the pipe tonight, they are a very nice bit of kit, can\'t see why anyone would pay 800 for one, as if it broke you could buy a new one or just weld it up saving over 600 which could buy a turbo, only bit wrong with it is that the wastegate pipe hasn\'t been cut out properly bu will smooth the edge off with the die grinder.
cool, actually take loads of pics of it if you can as it would good to see what it actually looks like in real life instead of the show photos etc
Inthink you have convinced me to have that 4088, for the same price as the bb turbo I can get the turbo and wastegate. May buy it soon. I am going down to Hayward Rotary in the morning as my car has developed a couple of gremlins and I don\'t want to make it worse by trying to fix it myself. Will see what he thinks about turbo choice again. He has a monstrous turbo on his office floor, gt45! That thing would suck people off of the pavement on a road car, it is huge!
gt45s are monsters, good for drag cars or if you need a 900bhp rotary penis extension haha.
Yeh see what he says about turbo choice, he will probably ask for how much power you want so you need to sit and think about that, but he has said for full boost gt35(3.5k)gt40(4k) so he will probably agree.
just checked on ebay at that gt4088, its got a big a/r on the rear, so as long as your ports are good it should hold onto the power to quite high rpm.
check the inside size of the wastegate pipe for me aswell while your looking at that manifold cheers
Quote from: turbotoaster;686352Oh yeh Ed did you get my pm on fduk, best ive found it abroad is $775
yes ...waiting for my supplier to get back to me so will let you know as soon as i know...i will gee him up again.
ok thanks ED, any idea what size downpipe that would need id imagine 4inch?
you got it!!!!....you will have to get the correct flange with it buy the looks of things...but might be able to swap it out...but that tub has a specific turbine size ...so not sure.
Quote from: turbotoaster;686456gt45s are monsters, good for drag cars or if you need a 900bhp rotary penis extension haha.
Yeh see what he says about turbo choice, he will probably ask for how much power you want so you need to sit and think about that, but he has said for full boost gt35(3.5k)gt40(4k) so he will probably agree.
just checked on ebay at that gt4088, its got a big a/r on the rear, so as long as your ports are good it should hold onto the power to quite high rpm.
check the inside size of the wastegate pipe for me aswell while your looking at that manifold cheers
The turbos that I found you can select your hotside once you commit to buy, Carl has said maybe an A/R of 1.06 would be good for my engine maybe down to a .9
Was discussing with carl about my rx4 which will have a 13b pp in it but in the future I would think of going to a full bridge 3rotor, single turbo and he replied with \'well with that gt45 you could get 600 hp easily\' in a car that only weighs a tonne that wold be devastating, talk about temptation for the future. Lol.
Quote from: turbotoaster;686471ok thanks ED, any idea what size downpipe that would need id imagine 4inch?
What size turbo has a 4 inch downpipe! Stolen off a boing 747 by any chance?
How much have you paid for your w/I? Seriously thinking about this as an extra safegaurd against det. Not map it to the car but add it afterthe car has been mapped.
Quote from: turbotoaster;686456gt45s are monsters, good for drag cars or if you need a 900bhp rotary penis extension haha.
Yeh see what he says about turbo choice, he will probably ask for how much power you want so you need to sit and think about that, but he has said for full boost gt35(3.5k)gt40(4k) so he will probably agree.
just checked on ebay at that gt4088, its got a big a/r on the rear, so as long as your ports are good it should hold onto the power to quite high rpm.
check the inside size of the wastegate pipe for me aswell while your looking at that manifold cheers
Wastegate pipe I/D is 46.46 mm. O/D is 50 mm.
Manifold O/D is 55.98 mm. I/D bit hard to measure but it is roughly 52.04 mm I used a vernear to measure these. just trying to import some pictures from my iphone, may take me some time. as i havent done it before
Dont know how to get these images uploaded, it keeps failing. if you give me your email address i could probably send them that way?
cool, the manifold piping is much larger than i thought to be honest, a spec recommend 2inch(50.8mm)I/D for using a t6 housing as it needs the flow, so it seems like these manifolds will flow fairly well :)
since i can get one for £100 ill get one and then modify the wastegate pipes where they join so its 60mm to join onto my wastegate, this will save me alot of money.
i think the saving i make is worth me going t4 housing but with a big a/r
my email is turbo-toaster@hotmail.co.uk, send them over and we can get them posted
well tonight i have been busy on my ebay elbow.
firstly i cut the smaller diameter off, i could have done it after the lip and it would have been simpler but hindsight is a wonderful thing!
after cutting the end off i used a dremel to enlarge it back out to the correct size, not sure neat but not to bad
(http://img691.imageshack.us/img691/7729/p11041023540001.jpg)
i then used my grinding bits to take out all the bumps, casting marks and general crappyness, it still looks rough in the pictures but feels silky smooth.
(http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/4006/p11041023550001.jpg)
this took me 2hrs to do in total and its not a fun job sitting in the kitchen working on it, got pins and needles in my hand now!
Quote from: turbotoaster;686609cool, the manifold piping is much larger than i thought to be honest, a spec recommend 2inch(50.8mm)I/D for using a t6 housing as it needs the flow, so it seems like these manifolds will flow fairly well :)
since i can get one for £100 ill get one and then modify the wastegate pipes where they join so its 60mm to join onto my wastegate, this will save me alot of money.
i think the saving i make is worth me going t4 housing but with a big a/r
my email is turbo-toaster@hotmail.co.uk (turbo-toaster@hotmail.co.uk), send them over and we can get them posted
will send those pictures over now, if that doesnt work i will just send them off my iphone
I will be chopping off the wastegate part of the way down as i have been told by Carl to use a 60 mm wastegate.
Have changed my mind back about the turbo to getting the gt4094R as Carl really recommends this turbo, Will be paying a lot for it but at least i will be happy. LOL.
Have just got back from Carls, he has been out and done more work on the map of my car, We got there at 8.45 and he went straight to work on it.
a bb turbo is alot of money mate and if it goes wrong you are screwed, marky on fduk was running gt35r and it pooped its pants, so hes having to buy a completely new turbo.
If you have money to burn then ok, if you really think you want the 94mm compressor get a non bb turbo, its alot cheaper and if something goes wrong it can be repaired cheaply.
also since your running a much larger comp wheel compared to the turbine wheel get the biggest turbine housing to help against back pressure and EGTs
Quote from: turbotoaster;686732a bb turbo is alot of money mate and if it goes wrong you are screwed, marky on fduk was running gt35r and it pooped its pants, so hes having to buy a completely new turbo.
If you have money to burn then ok, if you really think you want the 94mm compressor get a non bb turbo, its alot cheaper and if something goes wrong it can be repaired cheaply.
also since your running a much larger comp wheel compared to the turbine wheel get the biggest turbine housing to help against back pressure and EGTs
I dont have money to burn, (well not until i win the lotto that is!) but i wont be running huge amounts of boost, up to .9 bar so temperatures all round wont be as extreme, was marky runing a lot of boost? I have been told that the gt35 is a good turbo but to get bigger horses out of it you have to up the psi?
If i sound a bit arrogant here i dont mean to be, i dont know a lot about rotaries and the same about turbos, so have to ask and say stupid things so people push me in the right direction.
i have sent you an email with the pictures, let me know if they come through, if it doesnt work i will message them to you
i was discussing the 4094 with Mike ar Hayward rotary today and he said the outlet on the hotside is 3.5 " so i may end up going up to a 4" exhaust to reduce the back pressure, will end up louder and more £££\'s but will let the turbo do what it wants to do with less back pressure.
Asked Carl about where this turbo will be at full power and he said on a full bridge it will be at 3500-4000, and with my cars ports it will be 4000-4500 which is where i would want it. So you were spot on there bud, Cheers.
Quote from: turbotoaster;686732a bb turbo is alot of money mate and if it goes wrong you are screwed, marky on fduk was running gt35r and it pooped its pants, so hes having to buy a completely new turbo.
If you have money to burn then ok, if you really think you want the 94mm compressor get a non bb turbo, its alot cheaper and if something goes wrong it can be repaired cheaply.
also since your running a much larger comp wheel compared to the turbine wheel get the biggest turbine housing to help against back pressure and EGTs
Size of turbine housing has a great effect on spool up time,so getting the balance is important.
GT35 cores are available so yuor friend should try that route over a whole turbo, and just becuase it has gone does not mean the turbo is no good,it might mean it was not installed right as ball bearing turbo\'s need to have careful measures taken with oil feed. We have alot of GT35\'s that have been working fine for years.
GT40/94 is my current fave! Especially on bridgeports!:Giggle
Regards
Carl
Hey Grant,full boost at around 4000rpm on your side ports with power building before that LOL!
Regards
Carl
Quote from: HaywardRotary;686742Size of turbine housing has a great effect on spool up time,so getting the balance is important.
GT35 cores are available so yuor friend should try that route over a whole turbo, and just becuase it has gone does not mean the turbo is no good,it might mean it was not installed right as ball bearing turbo\'s need to have careful measures taken with oil feed. We have alot of GT35\'s that have been working fine for years.
GT40/94 is my current fave! Especially on bridgeports!:Giggle
Regards
Carl
Are you sure Carl? You had a huge smile on your face when you had steves car started up, Think that might be your favourite.
Quote from: HaywardRotary;686744Hey Grant,full boost at around 4000rpm on your side ports with power building before that LOL!
Regards
Carl
Thats what i meant, cheers for today carl. Put my foot down on the way back and the wheels span up in third, strange at 60 mph but it is funny. may have been oil on the road though
Quote from: Grant Monkhouse;686739i was discussing the 4094 with Mike ar Hayward rotary today and he said the outlet on the hotside is 3.5 " so i may end up going up to a 4" exhaust to reduce the back pressure, will end up louder and more £££\'s but will let the turbo do what it wants to do with less back pressure.
Asked Carl about where this turbo will be at full power and he said on a full bridge it will be at 3500-4000, and with my cars ports it will be 4000-4500 which is where i would want it. So you were spot on there bud, Cheers.
Hey got your pics, thanks for that, yeh ill happily get my dremel out again and grind that part down that you mentioned.
Ill probably cut the wastegate pipe off where they join together and have a 60mm pipe onto it as the wastegate i want is v-band anyway.
Mike is right on the downpipe, you will see benefits of running a 4inch over a 3inch:mmmm Let me know how much he wants for a 4inch exhaust as ill be looking for one aswell
Quote from: HaywardRotary;686742Size of turbine housing has a great effect on spool up time,so getting the balance is important.
GT35 cores are available so yuor friend should try that route over a whole turbo, and just becuase it has gone does not mean the turbo is no good,it might mean it was not installed right as ball bearing turbo\'s need to have careful measures taken with oil feed. We have alot of GT35\'s that have been working fine for years.
GT40/94 is my current fave! Especially on bridgeports!:Giggle
Regards
Carl
Yes very true, i suppose it will also affect how much boost he is running, as he mentions he will only be running low boost so will probably only see that restriction if he was running big boost.
Cores are avaliable but they arnt cheap at all, you can get a bigger non-bb turbo for pretty much the same money.
Yes they do work and they work fine, not saying they are defective, but worse case scenerio something does happen then at least your not looking at a big outlay to fix it.
Will be good to see his car done, make sure you get a dyno graph up Grant!!
I think we will be building our own 4" exhaust with mandrel bends on it, have allready got some perforated sheet to build a back box.
This won\'t be happening any time soon due to my rx4 in need of being rebuilt before I spend cash on a tub, but if work carries on for the rest of the year and money keeps coming In I I\'ll get it asap
will get the car dyno\'d and 1/4 mile times of stock twins and then single tub
anyway back to what this thread is about, your 200 mph target, when do you think you car will be done?
thats the only thing im lacking thats hurting me the most is welding.
I can stick weld but when it comes to mig, tig or anything else ive never done it, if i could it would save me a fortune, people say mig is alot easier than stick but id have to buy a welder and that wont be cheap
to be honest im not sure on dates, at the moment i can only put £200 a month towards the project but thats assuming im staying at the same job, if i manage not to get this other other ill be looking for full time work which will speed the process up.
Taking my intercooler to be modded tomorow and had a call today from a company to supply me with nozzles for my mechanical water injection so there is progress, even if its a bit slow.
Id like to do the run in october-december as the cooler air is always a benefit.
basically my schedule is
mod intercooler
fit intercooler/rad/elbow
remove airpump
fit ignition amp
fit fuel pumps,fpr and injectors
fit single turbo
fit water injection
map
sort out correct sized tyres
do 200mph
so as you can see im a long way yet
Are you going to be getting the mapping done on a dyno as you are going to be running a lot of boost?? 2 bar i think you mentioned before?
or are you going to map it on the road so that it is more realistic for conditons rather than the controlled environment of a dyno?
that is a long time consuming list, a bit like my rx4, except you dont have to paint your car.
well ill be doing the basic pump fuel map myself, just a 1bar while im learning.
for the 2bar map, ive got 2 people in mind, either jaydee or ross, ross has mapped a power fc up to 900bhp and done this on the road so he is looking favorite at the moment, but once its mapped i will need to take it to a hub dyno(probably wgts as its local) and see where in the rpm it is making the power so i can calculate tyre sizes etc.
Im hoping to talk ross into mapping it on wgts dyno but so far he doesnt seem that keen and wants to do it on the road but we shall see, if on the road im a bit concerned about holding it flat out in 4th down the motorway while he plays with a laptop, should be fun i suppose.
The reason i wanted it mapping on the dyno is so i know exactly how much power it is, dont want it mapped only to stick it on the dyno and i dont have enough power, at least on the dyno we can adjust it to what we want, plus i have a feeling ill not need the full 2bar, if so that will be great as i can turn it back a little to help the engine
In any case he has agreed to come to brunters with me anyway and sit next to me while we go for 200mph, he can monitor the engine and make amendments to the conditions while im concerntrating on driving
Quote from: Ed_RX7;686474you got it!!!!....you will have to get the correct flange with it buy the looks of things...but might be able to swap it out...but that tub has a specific turbine size ...so not sure.
yeh i did notice that, i was gonna mention it to you on fduk when you go back to me, the 802370-122 (http://javascript%3cb%3e%3c/b%3E:void%280%29;) has the same turbine inducer wheel size(its only the exducer thats different so the vband off that turbo will be perfect, the best bit is, the a/r is 1.22 which was what i was after anyway.
so yeh, get me a quote for 805142-105 with a 802370-122 turbine housing please, id imagine there shouldnt be any extra cost as they are both the same priced turbos, id rather not have the full 122 turbo because of the massive comp housing
Quote from: Grant Monkhouse;686479What size turbo has a 4 inch downpipe! Stolen off a boing 747 by any chance?
How much have you paid for your w/I? Seriously thinking about this as an extra safegaurd against det. Not map it to the car but add it afterthe car has been mapped.
all the big turbos are 4inch+ the borgwarner turbos when they use t6 turbine housings are 5inch downpipes, proper monsters and they are whispering sweet music in my ear lol
Im building the w/i myself, its a completely mechanical w/i system, no electric pumps or anything, much less to go wrong, should be able to complete it for £100 tops
Flat out in fourth on the motorway? That will be interesting with all the cars around, maybe an early morning dash?
Ross must have dyno\'d his drag car to get the mapping spot on? As mapping a drag car on uk roads would be a bit nuts?
Five inch exhaust! Remindsme of someone that I worked with that had two four Inch \'rocket boosters\' sticking out the back of his 1.4 saxo!! Looked stupid sounded stupid and went as fast as an oap!
Quote from: Grant Monkhouse;686940Flat out in fourth on the motorway? That will be interesting with all the cars around, maybe an early morning dash?
Ross must have dyno\'d his drag car to get the mapping spot on? As mapping a drag car on uk roads would be a bit nuts?
All mapping was done on the road no dyno!!! He is nuts trust me:eek
Quote from: turbotoaster;686239You shouldnt be thrashing a cold engine anyway, whether it has the butterflies in or not....its to avoid the worst of the effects, not all of them.
well a 480bhp rx7 is faster on track than a new gtr tuned to 630bhp, power to weight makes a big difference, but probably getting good traction out of the corner is what wins the day, this is where the skyline shines.
if you want to see that race i can probably find you a link for it.
my rx running around 370-420 kept up with a GTR except out of corners he a a little advantage
Quote from: Grant Monkhouse;686940Flat out in fourth on the motorway? That will be interesting with all the cars around, maybe an early morning dash?
Ross must have dyno\'d his drag car to get the mapping spot on? As mapping a drag car on uk roads would be a bit nuts?
His drag car was done on the road, told me he has a little backroad that he uses, must be fun driving the dragcar on full boost down the street at 11krpm+
Quote from: mjwebb48;686953All mapping was done on the road no dyno!!! He is nuts trust me:eek
Have you been out with him on his mapping attempts?
Dragon\'s drag car mapped on the road!!!! I am impressed, massive cahunas! Or lack of brain cells from beer?? Did he drive the car and tweek on thelaptop at the same time?
Quote from: DR SCHNITZEL;686990my rx running around 370-420 kept up with a GTR except out of corners he a a little advantage
That is good, may go find one where I live and see if I van beat it from the traffic lights. The four wheel drive will surely make a bog down when mine goes forward?
Have you ordered yourself a manifold then turbo-toaster?
Quote from: Grant Monkhouse;687046Dragon\'s drag car mapped on the road!!!! I am impressed, massive cahunas! Or lack of brain cells from beer?? Did he drive the car and tweek on thelaptop at the same time?
I never really asked him, you can datalog things so in theory he could have done it completely on his own but it would be much faster with 2 people, ill ask him next time i chat to him
Quote from: Grant Monkhouse;687047That is good, may go find one where I live and see if I van beat it from the traffic lights. The four wheel drive will surely make a bog down when mine goes forward?
They do 0-60 in under 4seconds from factory, unless your planning on driving around on slicks the your not gonna match one off the line, you should probably catch them between 60-150 i would imagine though
Quote from: Grant Monkhouse;687048Have you ordered yourself a manifold then turbo-toaster?
No, im going for an OBX manifold from the US costs about £130 but has a better T4 flange on it, that means there wont be a step when the gas enters the turbine housing.
Ive emailed the seller as they offer international shipping, just waiting for them to get back to me
I dont mind doing would grinding to match things up but i dont fancy taking that much material out of my housing so they match up on the megan version you can get in the uk
Also from what people have said the welding is slightly better on the OBX version.....they will all be made in china but it might be from a different factory.
When i get it ill be cutting wear the wastegate pipes meet off and welding a 60mm pipe on there, the 60mm wastegate im getting comes with all the flanges so ill add that on the end, job done.
i havent heard of these other manifolds where can i find them? JUst want to have a look as the one i have got should be more than good enough for me and if it needs some adjusting i will get the hammer out!
Have been told a couple of times by Carl about these chinese manifolds that the t4 flange is sometimes a bit too far angled over so they cut the flange off the one side to rotate the fitment of turbo up a bit. weld it back up and the turbo should fit. This angle adjustment is to take the turbo from touching the side wall of the engine bay.
When i said did Ross drive and use the laptop at the same time i meant to put a smily as a little joke, i know you can use the data loggit as i am going to be looking to get this myself and have a try at remapping my brothers FD, cant be too hard surely?
look on USA ebay for them, just type in OBX rx7 and you should find them, you will notice the difference in the t4 flange on the OBX one compared to what you have.
Im guessing thats one of the things Carl is on about aswell, if hes cutting the flange off he is probably welding on a proper t4 flange back on when he adjusts it away from the sidewall, ill imagine mine will need a bit of adjustment purely from the size of the large turbo.
Its important you do alot of reading before having a go at mapping, because if you mess it up you can end up breaking your brothers engine, ive tuned piston engines before but never rotary so this is new to me, but luckily i still have the experience from piston engines.....things like you dont advance the ignition to almost det then back off like you do with a piston engine, do that with a rotary and you risk it going boom!
I dont mind doing a low boost pump fuel map and cruise maps, but high boost race fuel map ill leave to the experts as im not confident enough ill get the best out of the setup or what sort of values of ignition i need to pull back to at peak torque on 2bar of boost
seems my turbo has to possibly go back to an older idea.
speaking to manny at masterpower today about the mp4505...basically a gt42 sized turbo.
they claim 750-1000bhp for that turbo and the compressor and turbine areas are actually slightly larger than the gt4202 so thought all was good as he will sell me one with a t4 1.22 a/r for $700.
I enquired about running 2bar and seeing if this is within its specs, ie will it just generate more heat so he sent me a compressor map for the turbo.
to say its not really promising is an understatement :(
here it is so you can see it
http://www.glowfoto.com/static_image/16-114107L/6259/png/04/2010/img5/glowfoto
it is in kg/secs instead of lbs/min to convert it, multiply by 2.2, then multipy by 60
so 0.5kg/s is 66lbs/min
but running 2bar of boost is 0.58kg/s which is only 76.56lbs, or about 760bhp piston, or 588bhp rotary....ie not enough power, im surprised really as they are very big wheels on the turbo!
Ive emailed him back to confirm whether im correct or not but i have a feeling that im right, if so then its back to the borgwarner or maybe if a cheap gt4202 if one pops up
How much difference is the T6 variation ? Maybe not enough flow in the t4 , possibly ??
Shaun
They dont do a T6 version shaun, else id look at that, seems if i want to stay t4 so i can save money on the manifold ive either gotta have a gt4202 or a bw s475 with a t4 1.25 rear end, the bw is cheaper but not as cheap as the masterpower was gonna be....shame :(
oh yeh
got myself a decat pipe for my birthday this year, even with the big turbo ill be running a 3inch exhaust on the road as due to running low boost there wont be massive back pressure issues and it keeps the noise down to semi-sensible levels........to say its loud compared to when it had a CAT on it is a bit of an understatement!!
When i started it up i crapped my pants, thought the decat had fell off, my neighbours werent to impressed!
Though its much better from 7-8krpm now as the ports where being heavily restricted by the CAT.
Big difference in weight
(http://img534.imageshack.us/img534/2910/p21041014420001.jpg)
new gaskets and bolts which is nice
(http://img532.imageshack.us/img532/7281/p21041014510001.jpg)
checked flanges and they are both true and flat
(http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/6259/p21041014430001.jpg)
had to jack the decat up so i could get the lower brace back on, but all bolted up!!
(http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/1098/p21041015310001.jpg)
video of starting it up
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0oiKRYFv2I8
I had one of those in the past (still have it knocking around) and it made some good figures on a small turbo. With a knackered back box I was seeing 112db at 3/4 revs :Giggle
Its a shame your budget isn\'t bigger and the pound was still strong against the dollar or I would suggest the GT42r A-spec makes with a Tial setup. Really nice but expensive !
http://www.rx7club.com/showpost.php?p=7715400&postcount=64
Shaun
yeh it would be nice to have something like that, literally plug and play but i just dont have the money for something like that, i can dream though.
Decatted is proper loud though, its a well weird idle aswell, havent heard any other rotary sound like it before
Yeah, when you came round I thought something was wrong! Very loud and a little tractorish. Thought you\'d thrown a tip! Definitely goes better!
yeh, its a weird sound, but doesnt seem to have lost any power and only started making this noise since i put the decat on, wont throw a tip sitting at idle for 5seconds lol
Does seem to calm down alot when you pull fuel out of the idle and the engine is warm, here it is warmed up
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pzRRHov_KUY
You should here my car idle especially in the cold weather; sounds like a bridge port. But is really smothe and quiet now the weather is better and with the bit extra work on my map that carl has done.
What back box have you got on your car? I have a tiger back box on mine so the noise is quiet, but when I give it some poke through first secon and third it sounds like a big motorbike, and with the lightened flywheel it picks up that little bit quicker.
With the Decatur you will have to add a bit more fuel at high rpm on boost, will you not as with a decat they run a little lean?
Quote from: Grant Monkhouse;689314You should here my car idle especially in the cold weather; sounds like a bridge port. But is really smothe and quiet now the weather is better and with the bit extra work on my map that carl has done.
What back box have you got on your car? I have a tiger back box on mine so the noise is quiet, but when I give it some poke through first secon and third it sounds like a big motorbike, and with the lightened flywheel it picks up that little bit quicker.
With the Decatur you will have to add a bit more fuel at high rpm on boost, will you not as with a decat they run a little lean?
Its a trust exhaust that came on it from japan, im not sure how it compares to other exhausts but its not quiet at all.
When i had it on the dyno with a cat on the leanest it hit was 11.1 afr so checking the knock values at high rpm its really low, i know that cant replace a proper afr or egt gauge hence ill be purchasing one next month, im gonna go with innovative motorsports one i think
DB-Red Gauge / LC-1 Kit which is only $229 but people have been saying its a very good kit for the money, ill put the bung in the downpipe so that it stays consistant just incase the flange on the decat leaks, i doubt it would effect anything because of the positive pressure in the exhaust but better safe than never
get an aem one you wont regret it!!!!
ive heard a few bad things about them, that there latency isnt on par with others and there software isnt all that great.
But then i have heard a few people say they had problems setting up there innovate so seems swings and roundabouts at the moment
ok....ive had mine on a dyno and its was on par with the one at the dyno!....as for software...its tells me the afr thats it ...dont need it for anything else...so im chuffed with mine.....good luck with the innovate one though.
well ill be honest and say i havent made my mind up yet, im not a fanboy of any of them to be fair and ill go with the best one for my money.
where was it tested against...ie whos dyno, i know dyno ones are good, just want to compare and contrast and if theres a few people who recommend the aem one then i would be happy to put my money there
Watched the formula 1 today and even though it was 530pm the sun was still out so decided to fit my new radiator.
Heat is a major factor on a rotary engine so getting the temps down makes a big difference. As you can imagine, running flat out for around 32secs with 700bhp will put alot of heat into the system, hopefully this should keep it in check.
Ive gone from the standard 35mm thick one to a 52mm ali rad, its an ebay one but has been proven to cope much better when the engine is pushed, gavinruns one that was getting 120c temps on a stock rad on trackdays, changed to this and hasnt been above 106c
Had a quick look at my online workshop guide on how to remove the rad, better to know what your doing before you come to do it.
(http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/3729/p30051017380001.jpg)
After looking at the picture, it says i have to remove the undertray and the anti-roll bar.....bugger that i thought, ill try from the top!
removed intercooler
(http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/8296/p30051018070001.jpg)
removed fans.....they are awesome from factory so will keep them
(http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/9356/p30051018070002.jpg)
removed radiator, actually just pulled out from the top, dead easy, not sure why it says from the bottom!
(http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/461/p30051018070003.jpg)
Big Space!
(http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/999/p30051018080001.jpg)
(http://img52.imageshack.us/img52/2112/p30051018180001b.jpg)
Came to put the top rad hose back on and because the outlet didnt stick out as much as the stock one i couldnt get it on with my spring clamps, so cut a little bit of the plastic away, you cant see it at all so made no difference to me
(http://img63.imageshack.us/img63/8003/p31051001210001.jpg)
Again, bottom part didnt line up as you can see
(http://img412.imageshack.us/img412/9530/p31051001210003.jpg)
All in and sorted, the angle it sits is not as horizontal, the reason for that is because it hits the chassis when you try to go to the point where the original rad sat, you can get around this by fitting the rad from underneath but i couldnt be bothered for the case of 1-2* more angle
(http://img693.imageshack.us/img693/2226/p30051019420002r.jpg)
Its been a bit of a pain and not an oem fitment, but to be honest i didnt expect it to be, only seen people run this rad upright in the past so wasnt 100% sure what to expect, but for £100 compared to £300 for a branded one im happy to mess about fitting it as my time is free.
Just going to duct off the sides of the rad now so all the air hits the rad first
Little update, wideband arrived in the post today.
Got it from a company named txautoplex on ebay from as you guessed it, Texas.
Ill have to admit, im always very unsure about buying from abroad, would be very easy for the company to rip you off as you cant go visit them.
But true to the guys word it was shipped out as soon as i paid and gave a tracking number so i could keep an eye on it.
He included free shipping so it only cost me £145 brand new in total and also put on the shipping docs a really low value so i didnt have to pay taxes....didnt ask him to do that so awesome!!
Id recommend buying from him as hes £30 cheaper than anyone else and gives great customer service :)
some random pics, ill do a full installation next week when i get warren to help me with wiring!
(http://img229.imageshack.us/img229/4313/p09061013480001.jpg)
Gauge, was expecting it to have more depth than that which is a bonus
(http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/8640/p09061013510002.jpg)
Bosch Lambda sensor
(http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/196/p09061013510003.jpg)
once i get it in ill start doing some proper tuning as my engine could really do with sorting out
decided to sort out the wiring for the wideband tonight, get it labelled and sleeved, as ill hook it all tomorow and dont fancy being sat underneath my dash all day, now just need to connect to ground and find a ignition 12v live and im done
(http://img822.imageshack.us/img822/7066/p10061003590001.jpg)
(http://img808.imageshack.us/img808/5803/p10061004000003.jpg)
(http://img811.imageshack.us/img811/7605/p10061004000001.jpg)
excellent thread, been watching this since day one
I told you the xd16 would give you problems.
the led on the setup didnt work but apart from that its been ok, replaced that with an led that works down to 1.5v and its sorted, yes ideally that wouldnt be the case but its not the end of the world
i copied this from another forum so be aware its aimed at none rotary people, just thought id stick it on here for an update
Well recieved my water pump pulley yesterday so decided to get it fitted.
(http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/4808/p23061020250001.jpg)
Now you might think this is just a bit of bling but this has a fundemental change to the belt system on an rx7
due to the nature of a rotary engine, they require alot of fuel to pretty much do anything, which means when idleing they put out alot of crap.
very strict emmisions around the world has caused problems for the rotary engine so what the designers did was fit a belt driven pump onto the engine that pumps pure air into the exhaust system to fool the MOT places into thinking the casr pumps out very little fumes.
It also has the effect of helping to cool the cat, an average piston engine when pushed very hard will get up to 1300-1400f exhaust gas temperatures, a rotary will put that sort of temps out cruising, and can get up to 1800f flat out, as you can imagine its very easy to cook a cat in that situation, infact its a very common thing on rotarys that they can cause the cat to infact collapse from this.
Now on my engine i have removed the cat, so pump is purely a parasitic loss that is just pumping air to an open ended pipe under the car, plus it will be in the way when i fit my big turbo
If you look at where water filler cap is, you can just see the pump the left hand side of it with a pipe coming off the top which feeds the pump its fresh air.
(http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs052.snc3/13935_207600351656_643856656_3594560_5403124_n.jpg)
This is then removed and looks like this, weights 5kg aswell so another little weight saving cant hurt.
(http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/9041/p23061020250002.jpg)
Leaves this gap here, you can now see the front turbo and another black bracket that helped hold the pump, this is then removed.
(http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/3425/p23061020260001.jpg)
we then remove the original water pulley, the reason this is removed is because the pulley runs off the outside of the belt, while normally this is fine as 60% is in contact so theres no slippage, with the pump removed this becomes an issue.
(http://img294.imageshack.us/img294/6953/p24061014140001.jpg)
so we replace the waterpump pulley with one that has rougher outer edge as you can see from the picture to gain back some of that friction
(http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b51/kevnokia/Bitz4Sale101_1.jpg)
installation is pretty easy, just use the 4 new bolts provided and bolt back up
(http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/6715/p23061021270002.jpg)
next up is replacing the alternator pulley, this is partially to make it look better than the stock one and also because the pulley is larger it makes choosing a new belt much easier as you can use a standard 78cm belt.
This was a bit of a pain in the arse to get off, ended up using a mates impact gun as i bent a screwdriver trying to hold the alternator internals in place while unscrewing the bolt.
](http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/5162/p23061021270001.jpg)
once bolted up i put my new belt on
(http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/1967/p24061013570001.jpg)
one issue ive had with my new radiator is that because the inlet pipe doesnt stick out enough, my air filters have been pushing on the waterpipe which meant the rad fan was catching the pipe....as you can imagine thats gonna end in disaster so now i have all this extra space with the airpump gone i decided to move my airfilters back into the engine back to relieve the pressure on the water pipe.
(http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/203/p24061013570002.jpg)
started it up and all sorted, i know its only a small update, but slowly getting there
Turbotoaster, i remeber you saying you used to have a renault 5gtt?, my friend has got one in his garden which is decaying into a pile of metal rot, he does not want to get rid of the car as he really likes it and even after months/years of sitting there not running all he has to do is charge the battery and it starts.
What i would like to know is that if he purchased a non turbo renault 5 to transfer the engine and bits over into the non rotten shel, would it fit in and are the shells exactly the same? or do the turbo models have stronger chassis rails?
How is the rx coming along? have you sorted yourself out for new system yet? or are you saving up the funds?
Hey Grant.
The chassis are exactly the same, its just the bodykit and holes in the bodypanels for fitting the bodykit thats the difference.
If he can find a low mileage mint non-turbo chassis then go for it. He will need to take off all the underpinings, suspension from the turbo as they are different etc.
If you can get the rear torsion setup of the r5 van then get that as its more robust.
on the rx7 front, ive fitted my 850cc primarys and done most of the mapping on them so that should cover me for a little bit while i progress on.
Probably the biggest thing now is i finally have a sponsor!
A company called Enhanced Performance is going to help me achieve my goals which is gonna be a massive help as they have a full garage setup with dd rolling road.
Im hoping to pop down to them in the next few weeks to get my cooler fitted so we can turn the boost up properly from 15psi to around 18psi and crack 400bhp+
Next thing after that is getting my CDI ignition with coils from dynapak, thats £400 so maybe september i think for that.
That\'s a big help then, are they sponsoring you on the money front or mainly on build time etc?
My mate has been looking at non turbo chassis and there is a complete car, rust free for 150 quid, so once he gets his compo I think he will get it. I had told him that dropping the engine and gear box with all the front end out would be the quickest way to sort the swap.
its advisable to just take the turbo body shell and throw it away, use everything else and bolt it to the non-turbo body and have fun.
Also the skys your limit on horsepower, theres one guy running 10s quarters with the original 1.4 engine :)
You not go with Gilmer pulleys?
gilmer pulleys means i would need to run a fc waterpump because the fd pump works the opposite way round hence it wouldnt work.
Quote from: turbotoaster;703669its advisable to just take the turbo body shell and throw it away, use everything else and bolt it to the non-turbo body and have fun.
Also the skys your limit on horsepower, theres one guy running 10s quarters with the original 1.4 engine :)
I know they can have high stupid hp, seen a few feature cars, was actually quite suprised how much room there is in there for the turbo considering the size of the car and engine bay! He doesn\'t want to spend money on it, just wants to be able to drive it as they are, in his words " like driving a go-kart "!
Quote from: turbotoaster;703677gilmer pulleys means i would need to run a fc waterpump because the fd pump works the opposite way round hence it wouldnt work.
not really mate, green brothers do an fd gilmer kit that allows you to keep the fd water pump. if it was me personally id be using an electric water pump anyway the sort of temperatures you\'ll be running for top speed runs. im running mine circuit and sprint and im ditching my stock water pump.
http://www.mazdarotaryclub.com/forums/showthread.php?t=65339
again its just extra money that doesnt need spending, yes id love alot of the things that people keep suggesting to me but the budget doesnt cover for it unfortunately.
If i spent 20k doing this project, noone would be interested as it would just be like a cheque book car which anyone could do.
I need to be careful where i spend the money.
Ive put £330 to one side for the moment which will go towards my ignition system as thats £400 so hopefully that shouldnt be a long wait to get, i only know one person who is running the same setup as me in the UK but hes originally from OZ where they know what they are doing
Well im sitting here trying to put into words what has happened in the last few days and how grateful i am that you get chance to meet certain people in this world.
The person or may i say the group are Enhanced Performance, never have I met a bunch of guys willing to go massively out of their way to help someone with a project, its the type of thing that really makes a company in my eyes!
Earlier on in this thread I mentioned that they were going to help me fit an intercooler, so we booked it in for wednesday to come down and get it done.
Leaving at 400am in the morning i head down south so that i can be there for when they open, on the way down i did a bit of mapping on the cruise parts of the map.
Holding 15.8-16.2afr at 70mph meant im now getting 29mpg which is alot better than most get, it being my daily driver its important to get some sort of economy!
So i arrive at 8am, watch 30mins of a movie on my laptop and then Luke arrives.
Straight away im offered a drink and we start chatting ideas, i have a look around the workshop and im amazed at the variety of cars there.....from the famous escort of dannys to an impreza, celica gt4 and even an old lotus elan.
We start stripping all the old tiny intercooler off and removing the rad outside(to stop water filling the garage)
(http://img30.imageshack.us/img30/8296/p30051018070001.jpg)
Very small cooler, would be great for a kitcar with a turbod engine id imagine
Nice big space to work with
(http://img30.imageshack.us/img30/8296/p30051018070001.jpg)
Once that was off we stood the radiator upright...it normally sits almost horizontal, then extended the brackets to encorporate this, once that was done a short couple of cuts to the rad hosing to twist them around into position and bobs your uncle.
In the afternoon a fella turned up with a stupidly mint old school yb powered escort, now to say this thing was mint is a bit of an understatement, it had come from malta so you know what they are like over there.
The reason for its visit was he had blown his turbo pretty much on the first day......fairly unlucky id say, so Luke found him another one and we got on with fitting it.
Now ive fitted turbos to all sorts of things over the years but never have i had so much problem doing this one.
the turbine housing had been left on and the owner had put the turbo back into the housing and was trying to bolt it back together.
First thing i did was adjust the centre section so the oil would flow perfectly vertical, tightened the bolts then adjusted the comp housing so that silicone pipe wasnt restricted.
feeling pretty happy with myself at that point was my big mistake of the day!!
Once i come to put the oil return pipe on we found it hit the manifold.......so i had to then loosen the bolts and clock the centre around, we then had to then reclock the comp housing back to the right position.....felt like it took forever as theres alot of bolts to play with!
Anyway once it was all done, luke stuck it on the rollers.
Now there has been a bit of debate on these forums about power out of such and such etc but im not one to blindly follow a tuner war and watched this session with an open mind.
Now i have seen alot of dyno graphs, including afr.....or lamda as luke kept reminding me haha.
Ill be the first one to call someones mapping crap, i pick no bones about it, if your crap ill tell everyone to avoid you and have in the past mentioned maybe 7 or 8 companies on forums who ive actually watched map a car and wouldnt touch with a bargepole, if id have seen crap mapping that day it would be the last time id ever visit them.
After watching luke map i can honestly say i was very very impressed, for a start the dynodynamics rollers are a work of art, so much better than anything else ive come across, you can really see why they are rated the best in the world, lukes afr figures were spot on and flat like a billard table, no up and down like a yoyo as ive seen on other peoples, id highly recommend him for mapping pretty much anything, the amount of equipment he has and the knowledge he has doesnt seem at all to be limited to the usual ford engines, give him pretty much any car with a crank in it and he will successfully map it, for example they have mapped a 1000bhp supra drag car and at that level if your crap things go wrong very quickly!
Well that was pretty much day 1 of my southern road trip, luke very kindly lent me his skyline so i could drive to the local premier inn(hardest bad in the world!) for the night........i dont think i know of anyone who would lend a young lad they hardly knew a rwd skyline to drive around in, was actually pretty nice to drive......but yes its a skybus, the M25 is a small circle than the steering wheel on it, it was HUGE!
The next day i arrive at 830am ready to get the car finished.
The biggest issue was the intercooler to be honest, i actually feel really guilty about it because i didnt really tell the guys how much of a massive job this was going to be, but in there professionalism they cracked on with it anyway.
the intercooler is an ebay GTR replica, they have already been run on 1000bhp skylines so i know they will take the power......plus i only paid £78inc shipping for it brand new, the real greddy version are around £1500.....so a big saving!
After discussing multiple ways we could fit it we narrowed it down to 2 choices, either fit it in the engine bay or fit it in the bumper, eventually we decided to fit it in the engine bay, which is where alot of time has been spent.
The reason for this is 4 fold.
1. It shortens the pipework with saves weight and can help with throttle response.
2. Because the cooler weighs around 14kg, you want it as far back as possible to maintain the cars perfect 50/50 weight distribution, the car has already lost 90kg over factory figures and most of that is from the rear so having even more weight further forward wont help matters, ive removed the front bumper bar to help out but the closer to the centre of the chassis the better!
3. If you were to be involved in a minor accident, say someone reversed into it while its parked, because its so large there would literally be about 5mm of plastic between it and the offending car, which could easily ruin your brand new cooler.
4. Because im using the original bumper you are very restricted in terms of the airflow allowed to the engine and running a cooler this thick can cause issues, now if we fitted it in the bumper what would happen is air would only be able to pass through about 30% of the cooler as the rest would be blocked by the bumper.....also any that did hit the intercooler would be spilled over the sides and over the bonnet and to the oil coolers, as the air will just get backed up infront of the cooler like so:
(http://img530.imageshack.us/img530/5876/differentpositions.jpg)
As you can see from my dodgy drawing once the air has entered the bumper there is physically nowhere for it to go but through the intercooler hence im making maximum use of the limited opening
the big problem with fitting it into the engine bay is that its so wide that it physically wont fit.
Here below is a picture to give you an idea
(http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash1/hs293.ash1/22073_346379871656_643856656_4170313_4456688_n.jpg)
the bottom arrow dictates that the chassis rails are 710mm wide and that the cooler is much bigger.
so the end tanks were cut off and new ones made from scratch, the only issue with doing this is that air likes to take the path of least resistance and if we basically just \'backdoored\' the cooler you would find the bottom of the cooler wouldnt actually cool the air properly.
quick Paint pic to help with new idea
(http://img341.imageshack.us/img341/7571/quickcooler.jpg)
So what we decided was to fit the inlets pointing down into the cooler, that way the flow of air will be directed to the lower parts of the cooler and be more effecient, the idea came from rods cooler that he had done.
Infact the physical size of the core is very similar to rods, just a bit thicker(4.7in vs 3.8in) so it should be pretty comparable
So what we decided was to fit the inlets pointing down into the cooler, that way the flow of air will be directed to the lower parts of the cooler and be more effecient, the idea came from rods cooler that he had done.
Infact the physical size of the core is very similar to rods, just a bit thicker(4.7in vs 3.8in) so it should be pretty comparable.
once the cooler was in and the rad bolted up the fun part was welding on the inlets, that probably took the most time to make sure we got everything angled correct, to say it was a tight fit was an understatement!
(http://img265.imageshack.us/img265/848/p06081016490003.jpg)
(http://img94.imageshack.us/img94/8072/p06081016490004.jpg)
The next part was fun, because the car only comes with 2.75in pipework from factory and ive still got the stock twin turbos on there we had to work out how to \'upscale\' as such from turbos to cooler.
Luckily i had brought with me a piece of the old intercooler kit that i never bothered with, it was just what we needed, unfortunately it was made from the worst aluminum known to man, so there was alot of grumbles to be heard while the tig welder was in force!
But happily he came up with this.
(http://img815.imageshack.us/img815/9631/p06081016490001.jpg)
Because the original end was such a wide angle, we cut a slice in it to tighten the angle so it wouldnt pop out of the turbo outlet
(http://img594.imageshack.us/img594/6881/p06081016490002.jpg)
We then connected up the pipework from the intercooler to the throttle body, if you look back a few pages you will see that i attacked the aftermarket elbow to increase its size from 70mm to 80mm inlet size just for this day so that the there would be no restrictions in flow
(http://img801.imageshack.us/img801/2331/p06081016490005.jpg)
then we moved back tot he turbo side and used a long 3inch silicone pipe to connect them up.
The reason for this is because silicone pipe is a worse conductor of heat than metal, this means that when the car is at low rpm or has been left standing still you wont have heatsoak problems, as the heat from the turbos heats up the turbo outlet pipe you can physically feel the silicone pipe getting colder as it heads towards the intercooler, last night i couldnt even touch the turbo pipe yet 20cm down it was cold to the touch, well before the intercooler entry
At this point we were coming up to 7pm and since we had been on it since 9am in the morning it was decided to try and finish it, the wiring loom had been removed out of the way while we were designing it and to save time we cable tied it between the engine and the rad, which means ill be taking everything out next week when i get chance and routing it all in properly, the reason we couldnt do it at that time was we needed to extend alot of wires and it was late in the day, so ill have better pics of the intercooler when i take it out to sort that out which ill show you but overall i think it looks amazing!!!
(http://img28.imageshack.us/img28/2289/p06081016490006.jpg)
in this picture below you can really see how thick this thing is, everyone laughed at the madness of a 120mm core
(http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/7340/p06081016500002.jpg)
And in this one you can really see what i was on about when i mentioned about where to put the intercooler, look how small the opening is in the bumper, would have struggled to get any decent air contact over the cooler!
(http://img843.imageshack.us/img843/3200/p06081016500001.jpg)
So if you have read all this so far, well done i appreciate your interest!
But its all well and good fitting something like this but the most important question is does it actually work.
I can categorically say it works better than i could have imagined!
I did some testing the previous weekend running 17psi of boost on v-power fuel. I recorded 49c inlet temps and knock of around 35-40 on the power fc commander.
With the new setup running the same boost, when it come on boost the knock went down to 8, but only on 95ron aswell which is madness!!
Cruising along the motorway gave me 21c inlet temps(used to be 37c) but the best thing about it is that when i pull up to 17psi of boost the actually inlet temps drop to around 19c, which means the sensor is reading 21c cruise because of the inlet manifold keeping it warm!
Id imagine with my 20psi of planned boost for the twins while i save up for the rest of the bits im looking at 25c max inlet temps in boost!
One other concern that people have shouted at me is water temps, that running such a thick cooler will mean no air to the rad and that it will overheat, again this was proven false because most rx7s run the cooler in the bumper which ive previously mentioned causes very small amount of air to enter the engine bay, by far this setup of mine fixes those issues.
cruising to Enhanced gave me 86c water temps.....thats with the rad getting the full use of the incoming air to its entire surface, on the way home with the big intercooler i was sitting at 86-87c so it made no difference and infact i wasnt running the undertray(put it in the boot for me to refit when i get chance) so putting that back on will probably help improve it even further!!
So what have i learnt from my 2 days experience.........well its hard to put it into words really, ive never ever been impressed with any company like i have with Enhanced Performance, the quality workmanship, the hard work ethic and most importantly there customer service skills, Luke really has been a revelation in terms of someone to deal with, for example driving half way around the south of london getting pipework for me at 9am in the morning to make sure the car looked the best it possibly could be, ive met alot of tuners and most talk to you like your retarded, but here they listened to me, expanded on my ideas and treated me with respect and that is what every tuner should do by default.
Would i recommend them after this, 110% I would, from the wealth of experience they have I dont think theres nothing they could do, from Luke and Ike mapping skills.....i think Ikes amazing, the things hes done and still doing blow my brain...hes worth the visit across the country just to speak to him, hes built and mapped quite a few rotarys aswell.
Pretty much any type fabricating you can think of, whether its exhausts, manifolds, intercoolers, radiators, custom camshafts ,rods, pistons...they can pretty much create anything for any car.
And to finish it off you wont meet a nicer pair of guys between Luke and Danny whatever you go to them for, rotary or not
nice write up :)
are you going to stick to a stock front bumper then and then duck it or change front bumper down the line for a bigger opening?
we shall see how it copes, if my inlet temps rise above a certain level ill stick my feed one i have in the back garden, or open up the stock opening with braces but everytime you go larger openings you increase drag remember so its a balancing act.
The front bumper is a bit knackered so ill change it eventually, same with the bonnet as ill go vented, but for the moment they happily sit there.
My veilside d1 bumper also has a small mouth and only covered half the surface area of the fmic. We went vmount in the end.
The work done looks brilliant. Well done.
What work will you have to do for when the singl turbo goes on with the intercooler pipes?
Can you get your strut brace on with new direction of the intercooler pipe? As I have been thinking about changing mine to something like you have done.
I will let you know when I get the datalogit from nz and we could meet up and you could use it to help with your mapping. Hopefully it will arrive by the end of this week.
Quote from: turbo boy;709137My veilside d1 bumper also has a small mouth and only covered half the surface area of the fmic. We went vmount in the end.
hence why i run the intercooler in the engine bay, running it in the bumper may give good inlet temps but at the expense of water temps
Quote from: Grant Monkhouse;709223The work done looks brilliant. Well done.
What work will you have to do for when the singl turbo goes on with the intercooler pipes?
Can you get your strut brace on with new direction of the intercooler pipe? As I have been thinking about changing mine to something like you have done.
I will let you know when I get the datalogit from nz and we could meet up and you could use it to help with your mapping. Hopefully it will arrive by the end of this week.
Currently the strut brace fits on the throttle side(important), but not the turbo side, i knew that it wouldnt with that xs power pipe anyway but since im only using that with the twins i wasnt to fussed.
When i go single turbo ill have the room to put my strut brace back on so everything will be fine, we could have modded the pipe to fit for the strut brace, but since its only gonna be till around xmas there wasnt much point.
If you want help designing yours let me know, i can make you some drawings or you could even copy my design, enhanced performance have already done it once so give them a ring on 01444881498 and tell them lee told you about them and they will sort you out with a good deal, ring them around 9am if you can as there phones get super busy in the afternoon, least i can do for you mate as your helping me with my mapping:)
For example my intercooler cost £78 and the rad cost £99 all brand new, you just have to get them to mod the cooler to fit!
I think it will be more like me passing you the tools and watching you use them rather than helping with the mapping! Lol.
I was going to ask where you got the rad from as I already have an eBay intercooler mounted in the front bumper, just need a decent rad to go with it.
got it from ebay, theres 1 company that sell them but have called themselves about 30 different ebay names so they think you will just end up buying from them whichever company you choose.
they vary in price from the same company but basically they are all identical, at the moment the cheapest on there is £129inc shipping but keep an eye out for when they pop up for £99 every so often if you wanna save that extra £30.
it will be fun to do some mapping, i can teach ya what i know so you can do yours aswell my young jedi haha
Quote from: turbotoaster;709260got it from ebay, theres 1 company that sell them but have called themselves about 30 different ebay names so they think you will just end up buying from them whichever company you choose.
they vary in price from the same company but basically they are all identical, at the moment the cheapest on there is £129inc shipping but keep an eye out for when they pop up for £99 every so often if you wanna save that extra £30.
it will be fun to do some mapping, i can teach ya what i know so you can do yours aswell my young jedi haha
Sure thing master yoda. Once iv learnt a bit i will be mapping my bros car as it is on the base map at the moment.
Not too bothered about the 30quid difference but will keep an eye out for the prices as with buying the logit and wideband i have spent a bit too much this month! Lol
quick little update for anyone, decided to sort out my engine loom today as it looked a big mess being cable tied between the engine and rad.
First job was take out the rad and cooler, put the cooler to one side so people could see what i mean from my dodgy Paint drawings.
(http://img188.imageshack.us/img188/1550/p12081010080001.jpg)
as has been mentioned with the spec r cooler about coming in from the top, full 3 inch access with no restrictions as you can see below, its common place all over the world but as usual seems to be ford owners are only just catching up, suppose its like twin scroll turbo/manifolds jap cars have been doing it since the 80s
(http://img811.imageshack.us/img811/4008/p12081010070002.jpg)
put all the wiring loom back in its original position, had to cut and remove alot of the plastic covering then retape all the loom, alot of trial and error which took along time, but finally got everything back in, flipped the fusebox upside down and bent a couple of brackets to put it back in its origional position to save cuttign anymore wires, which then warren extended my radiator fan wires while i worked on a few other bits and bobs(putting a filter back on the second turbo as no room before with wires everywhere)
(http://img706.imageshack.us/img706/6667/p12081016100001.jpg)
wiring all back in and covered with protection nicked from warrens weird ford collection of parts.
(http://img693.imageshack.us/img693/4284/p12081017180001.jpg)
next update
Picked up my diff and gearbox braces today, got them half price of what they are new
the standard gearbox can take an awful lot of power on a rx7, plus it can happily be thrown through the gears without delay...ive seen 900bhp being run through one, but with that sort of strain you will get movement in the chassis, this brace helps keep it in position to stop breakages.
(http://www.mazdarotaryclub.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=48346&d=1280498169)
the diff brace helps 2 fold, firstly that because again theres less movement you will have a much stronger transmission setup and also rx7s suffer with axle shake when you launch them, this solves that problem, its normally the shaking that breaks these diffs
(http://www.mazdarotaryclub.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=48345&d=1280498169)
that now covers my transmission, another thing ticked off the sheet, i have no plans at dumping the clutch at 700bhp as the gearbox will take it but the stock diff wont but these braces will help keep everything together as i squirm onto the main straight at brunters
quick update for the front, change of bumper and bonnet, keeping the stock bonnet and bumper in my shed though as ill use them on the run since less openings the better for aero purposes.
you can tell i could do with some sideskirts as the front is really aggressive compared to the rear and sides
got my seats coming next month, then i can sort out some wheels and tyres, SiH might actually be a little happy with me as i have a feeling there maybe a tiny bit of poke on the front haha
(http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs661.snc4/60103_451376601656_643856656_5768892_711982_n.jpg)
(http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs644.snc4/60467_451376661656_643856656_5768894_765287_n.jpg)
looking nice at the front turbotoaster,defo in need of some skirts though looks like your rx7 has a big chin :)
its the david coulthard of the rx7 world haha
seats arrive next week so will get some pics of those for everyone...safety first!!
looking good :)
getting ready for winter i see. snowplough ftw lol
I\'ve done 200+mph more times than I care to remember in my RICESP. Simple to do and you wont need as much power as some people think :driving
Nice thread, good to see some of my pics and ideas (my mechanical water injection imitated world wide!!) in it lol.
http://www.riceracing.com.au/water-injection.htm
http://www.riceracing.com.au/Videos/demonstration-water-injection.wmv
If you need some help feel free to PM me.
p.s. did this also prior in 1997 in my first gen RX7, but much scarier compared to the FD! (that front end will rob you off allot of speed btw, excessive drag, opening for coolers way way too big!) ditch the canards also. Have a look at the front end of my SP for an idea of what works.
(http://www.riceracing.com.au/Photos/RICESP/RiceSP20.jpg)
Quote from: turbotoaster;663618alot of people, about 5 that i can think of have told me to go e85, the problem is they just dont sell it up here, its great as its a slow burning fuel and you can run some proper boost. with race fuel i can just stick it in the tank and map it without the need to massive injectors, i cant remember the exact amount but you need 20-30% more fuel, i suppose i could run 2 550c and 4 1600s but then its cost on rails etc and im not sure if i can do it in budget.
toyo currently sponsor madrod whos saph cossie has done 206.1mph and is trying for 215mph this year and they are just giving him sets of 888s
from what the guys say in america and oz the turbo actually helps with atomisation, thats why they run alot more water pre turbo than post turbo but you need to get the distance between the jet and the turbo spot on, it should be aiming directly at the turbo wheel and be around 4inches away.
they also run ALOT of water, the guy with a 700bhp on pump fuel throws in 1600cc/min of straight water, he does have an awesome ignition system though.
his ignition setup cost nearly £600 though and im not sure yet whether i can fit it in my budget.
on a twinpower you can throw about 600cc/min of water in and your ok
You don\'t need ethanol and all the headaches that go with it.
So far as the "guy with 700rwhp" :rollin:rollin:rollin:rollin:rollin
Don\'t believe a one hit wonder fake dyno sheet that has never been backed up or performed anywhere in reality against other cars :Nono!
WI is a science there are many people who have copied me and worked off t7t bits of partial information then sprout it all over the internet,
NONE of these pretenders have ever made a car that has either backed up its power in reality (any type of performance measure in real life NOR performed in a controlled environment on a calibrated dyno, OR if they have they have gone home on a tow truck, lots of excuses though have ensued why the mph in qrt mile test is so slow, or why its got no traction to do a 100kmh to 200kmh test, or why its gone through 3,4,5,6 or more engines!!!! *pick the excuses they are many and varied and all predictable!!!).
Just be carefull on who\'s hype you believe, some of us were around before the internet and some of us are qualified engineers :Typing others are just keyboard warriors :Typing
Great post Pete!!!
hey pete, i was wondering when you were gonna show up on here, spoke to you ages ago over email about w/i.....the plan is to use preturbo w/i and racegas at the same time, this will give me double protection to hopefully make everything hold together.
please dont get banned from this site though like the rest, you just pretend we are all really soft and easily offended and you will be fine, as you are great for info but sometimes you come across as a bit big headed(only saying this with your interest at heart)
Well its ross at dragon thats doing the mapping so im pretty confident we should get there in the end, we have a distance of 1.5miles to hit this speed so its not like trying to hit 200mph down a long motorway, hence more power is required.
A good bit of info is that 700bhp at 1.8bar has now been done in the uk with the turbo im planning on using, though his engine has larger ports than mine hence im thinking 2/2.1bar will be required to match that, but again ross has made massive power with a power fc before so im going to someone who knows what hes doing.
Im guessing your not a fan of race onlys 700whp on pump claims then, to be fair im just a dirty pom so can only go off what i here, your probably closer to true information than me.
Bit of info for you ross, those braces are nuts, feels like im driving around with a dogbox haha
Quote from: turbotoaster;719150please dont get banned from this site though like the rest
I am a current active member of
RotaryCarClub
Ausrotary
mazdarotaryclub
Aquamist *that is more than enough forums to give my time too I think*
I pick and choose which I decide to share my valuable information on, the other "rest" rubbish sites are just that, and they are administrated/moderated by nobodies & sh7talkers who are only good at goolging information and :Talking1 and :Typing 100% crap.
Internet sites come and go, the true knowledge and skills always have and always will be with the individuals who actually do things :Thumbsup! I set up my own web site to share real knowledge stuff you just do not find on all the forums combined. I do *sometimes* go onto forums ONLY to refresh peoples minds and provide them this, some have gone on to spawn their own following and quasi business off this information I openly shared with them.
At the end of the day :Talking1 is cheap and the :Typing is even lower than that :2Rolleyes when you scrape a bit below the surface anyone who is foolish enough to ban me have always been exposed as either deluded or vastly inferior or had vested interests to protect and foster, simple as that ;)
That can come across or read the wrong way? My purpose for posting here is not to be involved in any of the BS that has gone on with ANY of the inferior rubbish sites, that are run poorly (owned by morons) but to give out top shelf first hand qualified advice. I will endeavor to do this in a nice way from this point on. When time permits around my busy schedule (not much time left these days for :Typing)
I forgot about your distance limit (1.5miles) yes you will need some more grunt.
Ross is a champion your in great hands there :Thumbsup!
I will keenly follow this thread :WaveBye
i worked it out that ill need about 550whp to achieve it going off what other cars required to hit 200mph, but then thats doing the perfect run, you cant assume your gonna do that hence im aiming for 600whp as that will give me a little bit of leeway so hopefully ill only have to do one run, then stop and crack the bbq open
Quote from: turbotoaster;719150A good bit of info is that 700bhp at 1.8bar has now been done in the uk with the turbo im planning on using, though his engine has larger ports than mine hence im thinking 2/2.1bar will be required to match that, but again ross has made massive power with a power fc before so im going to someone who knows what hes doing.
Bit of info for you ross, those braces are nuts, feels like im driving around with a dogbox haha
Hello tt If this is in reference to me? How do you know my ports are larger than yours?
The comment about the braces making it feel like a dogbox is absolutely ridiculous.
hello rob, nice to hear from you, your running a full bridge with a 2200rpm idle, well according to era anyway....you know my ports are nowhere near that.
i didnt mean the box works like a dogbox, i meant the whirling and noise, reminded me from when i drove a skyline with a ppg dogbox, no need to get your panties in a twist
little update, had alot of people look around my car in the last couple of weeks and it seems my car is very well known in the area so was getting a bit nervous, hence the purchase, plus being 6ft3 causes me issues with driving an rx7, as you cant move your legs properly when driving as your knees hit the steering wheel.
I changed my wheel from 370mm to 320mm to see if it helped and it did a little bit but then i was unable to see half my clocks, so after ordering a new set of bucket seats to lower me down and send me further back so im more comfortable i decided to get my hand in my pocket and buy a driftworks quick release.
I have to say the guys are spot on, everything i asked he got back to me straight away, even ordered it yesterday and it arrived today being sent by normal 1st class post...awesome.
i had a quick look on there to see if there was any guides to fitting one and since there wasnt i thought id stick some pics up to help anybody else who might want one for there trackcar
little box arrives this morning
(http://img716.imageshack.us/img716/5089/p15101013290001.jpg)
open box to find goodies, also look at instructions that are in japanese........felt so jdm haha
(http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/7247/p15101013350001.jpg)[
original boss with wheel attached to give a reference of position from console
(http://img832.imageshack.us/img832/4923/p15101013360001.jpg)
bolted onto wheel, had to use spacer that i had on the car as the bolts were so long and wasnt bothered about cutting them off, also you can see the 2 thin metal plates between them, thats for the horn, you can see them in the picture earlier
(http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/5741/p15101013480001.jpg)
original boss to bolt to
[(http://img829.imageshack.us/img829/2395/p15101013500001.jpg)
bolted new part on with allen bolts suppied in the kit, i like how its not on a spline like motorsport ones because ive heard of the cars getting pinched with a set of molegrips!
(http://img243.imageshack.us/img243/8364/p15101013550001.jpg)
wheel massively closer to me, i can actually see the clocks properly now!! also theres more room around my knees to heel/toe, no point being flat out and unable to see when to change gear when looking at the dash
(http://img178.imageshack.us/img178/3002/p15101013570001.jpg)
you can see the difference the 60mm makes
(http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/797/p15101013580001.jpg)
will give another little update next saturday when my seats are in and pop up to the weighbridge to see what we have got the weight down to(should be 20kg off from seats and 10kg from battery)
They are really handy. Only way I can get out of the car with the cage with legs !
Shaun
Appreciate the write up on this as I\'m thinking of doing the same thing myself - I\'m not quite as tall as you, but still have trouble trying to heel and toe! I reckon bringing the wheel a bit closer will definitely help. :Thumbs-up
thats true, trying to do any heel/toe with size 13 feet isnt the easiest to begin with, especially with your knees hitting the wheel, this does help, hopefully the seats will aswell
ok guys, next update, things are coming along slowly, not as fast as id like but when you have been made redundant 4 times in 2years it becomes a hard slog!
My next update is what ive been saving for the last couple of months, to save some weight, my safety and also improve my driving position.
First up it was time to sort out the battery, ive basically took the big stock battery and box and bolted it into the boot just under the strut brace.
This has been fine and theres been no movement but its heavy and you can hear the liquid sloshing around, also in the event of a crash theres a chance that it could fly forward and kill someone.
So i decided to get myself a little battery and box.
Upon having a look around being the tight fisted guy i am came across the solution on ebay(where else)
got the 20ah battery for £50
(http://img535.imageshack.us/img535/8585/lightweight53kgracingra.png)
and the box for £20
(http://www.rallydesign.co.uk/images/RD2310Product.jpg)
so took out my old battery/box and weighed it, came to 17kg
(http://img514.imageshack.us/img514/5051/p28031013150001.jpg)
and replaced it with the new battery and box, came to 5.4kg which saved me 11.6kg!!
Now i feel a bit safer incase of an accident plus saving weight is never a bad thing.
Next thing was to sort out a pair of seats.
The biggest issue i have had is being tall, im 6ft3, now thats not a monster in the normal world, but in the rx7 world its not great.
This is when i started talking to jon at atomicrex, well what can i say about the bloke, one of the nicest guys ive met in a while, always happy to talk about anything and makes time for you even if he doesnt know or not if you will buy from him.
After deciding to go down and see him after looking at his seat rails online we found that they just wont work for someone my height.
But thats not an issue, jon decides to have a custom set made for me, which im over the moon with.
The issue was that with the standard rails he does im about 60mm to close to the dash, which means i cant move my legs or see any clocks.
After chatting about it for while he comes up with the solution and gets them made, this was about a month ago, but due to my work problems i was unable to get back down there to do a proper fitting.....until saturday just(yay)
Jon opens his shop just for me and we spend the day fitting them, i really appriecated all his help because he was meant to be going gliding but instead put this customer first.
Passanger seat when in fine, took a few tweaks to get it sitting correct and we realised that because i still have full sound deadening and carpet you have to bolt seats in the correct order else you run out of room.
After that we move onto the drivers side, this unfortunately became an issue, due to me modifiing the stock seat so that it goes back as far as possible it decided today of all days it was gonna lock up and not go forward to give me access to the rear bolts.
So out came the angle grinder much to jon amusement as i cut a perfectly mint stock seat into 24 different pieces before finally getting access to the rear bolts!!
Anyway because of my height this side is now using his new \'lanky bugger\' seat mounts, or as jon nicely put \'extended\'
These rails have 3 adjustments for peoples height and in my opinion are set at:
6ft-6ft2
6ft2-6ft4
6ft4-6ft6
we first tried it at 6ft4-6ft6 setting and i could just about reach the pedals and the seat was pretty much set vertical, to let you know how close it is between the back of the seat and the car, there was 3mm.
When trying to recline the seat back to lower the head height slightly we found that the rear of the seat would touch the sound deadening there......if you are 6ft4-6ft6 and want more reclining then you will need to remove the little bit of deadening there which would take 5mins.
but because im only 6ft3 we moved the seat one position forward and dropped the back of the seat down 1 peg.........this was perfect, i was comfortable and could finally see all of my rev counter, also i was sitting further back than my old modified stock seat so my knees were nowhere near the steering wheel, he has some of these rails in stock if you are interested in information or buying them, im sure he will post some pics of them for everyone to see.
The seats im running are corbeau pro series 3 carbon/kevlar in stock size.....and im 15st and 34in waist for reference if anyone needs seats, they fit but they are very much the limit interms of size which full interior.
This first image shows you my new battery/box fitted, the 2 threaded holes that are on the chassis from factory are used to hold the box in place.
You can also see how ive reclined the seat further back to give it more of a GT feel for comfort and to bring my eyeline lower in the car compared to the passenger seat which is a stock atomicrex rail
(http://img823.imageshack.us/img823/2196/p01111013250001.jpg)
This one shows in the middle position how much further the seat goes back than the stock seat, also the recline aswell, i may int he future recline the passenger one slightly if i get many complaints.
(http://img832.imageshack.us/img832/1646/p01111013240001.jpg)
Quick picture of how it looks from the outside
(http://img829.imageshack.us/img829/9280/p01111013240002.jpg)
So overall im very happy with the setup and would recommend it for any tall or even short guys if you choose the right rail, i drove 3hrs back from jons and felt fine when i got out.
Hope this helps with anyones decisions in the future, if you want to know costs etc either myself or jon with be happy to tell you
Love the seats mate, soon you will be ready:)
Hi,
Would you like to sell the original battery box please??
Al.
well it has holes in the base of it now from where i bolted it to the shell and the little lump on the base has been removed, its still useable though, yours cracked?
Quote from: Erdin;724501Love the seats mate, soon you will be ready:)
thanks erdin, progress is slow, but wheels are next, then i can finish the turbo setup and ill be 90% of the way there then!
Quote from: turbotoaster;724525well it has holes in the base of it now from where i bolted it to the shell and the little lump on the base has been removed, its still useable though, yours cracked?
Hi, my battery box is missing, so even one with a few extra holes would be ok ?
Just thought you might like to see what can happen on a standing mile. This is from this years Texas mile where last year a LS fd rcorded a 196ish mph.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yS1NU6xjTSY
You can never spend to little on safety.
i like the seats :)
coming along nicely.
Quote from: Spartacus;724759Just thought you might like to see what can happen on a standing mile. This is from this years Texas mile where last year a LS fd rcorded a 196ish mph.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yS1NU6xjTSY
You can never spend to little on safety.
yes very true , lucky that guy had a roll hoop welded in the Lambo :eek:
i\'d buy robs cage if i were you, best bolt-in on the market and has a proper harness bar :)
I\'m not seeing anything in here about uprated brakes, do you not need to get it stopped pretty quickly at the end of the straight?
Can only imagine the standard stoppers will struggle with the heat build up from a rapid scrub off from 200mph.
Interesting thread by the way :)
When is this 200mph run happening again? next summer?>
Quote from: mx1311;724787i\'d buy robs cage if i were you, best bolt-in on the market and has a proper harness bar :)
had a look at it and its not gonna be any good as it wont let the seat go far enough back, plus if i was gonna go through the hassle of a cage, id be doing a proper one that braces to the tunnel and front strut tops
Quote from: Panjy;725291I\'m not seeing anything in here about uprated brakes, do you not need to get it stopped pretty quickly at the end of the straight?
Can only imagine the standard stoppers will struggle with the heat build up from a rapid scrub off from 200mph.
Interesting thread by the way :)
you will be suprised actually, originally my thoughts were that a big set of stoppers were required but it turns out thats not true.
rods 210mph runs 330mm fourpots and weighs around 1500kg, after cracking a few discs after the hard braking he contacted AP Racing to ask for advise, the actually cause was the massive instant change in temperature caused by having brake ducts installed.
AP racing suggested to remove the brake ducts and they had no problems after that.
so 210mph+ 1500kg braking is less stress than 200mph 1100kg braking and both vehicles run 4 pots.
So the only change i will make is putting new better grade front pads on as ive got better discs on already.
Quote from: DR SCHNITZEL;725295When is this 200mph run happening again? next summer?>
well ill be getting new wheels and tyres before xmas, then my turbokit should be done for feburary, so id like to get it done on my birthday which is 17th of april as that gives me time to get it mapped by ross on racegas
This is my favourite thread hope all goes well I really want to be there when you do it so keep up the good cheers den
Sorry, must have missed info on ron and his 210mph runs.
What car is that (am guessing skyline with that weight) and are we talking standard fit or AP 330mm brakes - two very different things?
Was he doing top speed runs like you & having to brake in the same distance as you will? Did he also have uprated rears?
Not trying to come up with arguments, just highlighting some of the many factors to consider. You don\'t want to be finding out its all unstable / won\'t slow down quick enough on the day eh :eek:
What distance have you got to stop in?
Out of interest, how are you planning on getting the rex down to 1100kgs? I\'m guessing perspex windows, frp hatch, custom tank, full interior strip, light wheels etc would be needed to get it down that low.
I\'ve got 70kgs off mine so far and reckon 100kgs is the limit whilst keeping it as a daily driver - i.e. keeping interior trim, normal glass & panels etc.
rod owns a ford sierra sapphire cosworth, runs a gt42 turbo and nos, makes 838bhp off gas and around 1000bhp with.
his car has full cage, leather, stereo, sound deadening, big bottle of nos, big bottle of N2(for his push system) massive turbo, cooler etc
hes already done 210mph at bruntingthorpe, hoping to hit 215mph this time around.
they are 330mm AP brakes, standard rears i believe, i do believe the stock brakes on an rx7 are more than up to the job, im sure someone mentioned the rx7 held the record at one point for most g decelaration for a production car,put the car on a trackday and i think they would go off after a couple of laps mind.
He has to brake in the same distance.
the straight is 2miles long, most cars will be on full throttle for 1.6miles of it, before the heavy braking at the end.
unfortunately its not really something you can do alot of testing, ive done some very heavy braking from 160mph down to 40mph and the car felt fine, didnt squirm and that was brake pedal nearly through the bulkhead!
the good thing about bruntingthorpe airfield is that its pretty wide and open with a very gripping surface to help braking.
the actual braking distance is purely down to me, if i do a run and hit 195mph and im braking really early ill just move the braking marker further down the straight.
I know your not trying to argue, infact i like when people question things and discuss it, some people just assume ill do it, some assume ill never do it, its the people on the middle ground that i like talking to.
well my car weighs 1150kg at the moment, which im my opinion is still a bit of a lard monster, heres a rundown.
airpump gone
frp bonnet
rats nest and random nuts and bolts gone
big intercooler and rad(+10kg)
removed ast
decat straight pipe saved 15kg id say
bumper support gone
carbon seats saves 20kg
racing battery in the boot saves 11kg
no spare wheel or tools.
the car is a full road car no need to get perspex windows at all.
im keeping all my stereo, full interior trim, sound deadening and normal glass, my wheels im buying december are the same weight as my old bbs 17s but are much wider and the difference in weight between tyres is actually nothing(give or take half a kg between a full set)
ill save 10kg by removing power steering, 5kg by removing rear bumper bar, 3kg by swapping wood to carbon for my splitter, 2-3kg removing rear wiper, motor and bottle, thats over 20kg right there which takes me down to 1130kg so not far off
i might in the future go to frp boot and wings, this will drop me below 1100kg, im keeping my normal doors and etc windows
what tires are you going with to handle 200mph?
As part of your weight reduction regime, are you going to cull any of the liquids?
If only for the speed run itself, you\'ve got washer fluid for starters - a full bottle of that must be nearly a kilo.
From the thread - you\'ve already eliminated the PS fluid as that system\'s gone :)
Running with less fuel in the tank too ?
It get\'s a bit more of a toss up on reducing oil capacity / coolant capacity - as these can effect the car\'s ability to get rid of the heat - but none the less - some small weight savings maybe ?
Quote from: RobMatthews;725423what tires are you going with to handle 200mph?
depends what i decide to do.
i need to sort out the rear tyres but that will depend on how the dynograph looks.
if its making power at 8500rpm then ill be running different tyres than if im making max power at 7500rpm.
if its 8500rpm ill run 285/35/18s
if its 8000rpm ill run M/T 28X12.00R18LT
if its 7500rpm ill run M/T 30X12.00R18LT
in terms of the front tyres im not 100% sure yet, i can run my 265 semi slicks on 10in wide wheels which will give me better braking which means i can brake later.
On the other hand it also hurts me aerodynamically which maybe the difference between win and lose, so i might end up running 235 normal tyres on an 8in wide wheel. which tucks below the front arches hence i can run the front lower aswell(about 15mm) which helps against drag.
ill probably bring both sets of front wheels and compare them on the day for the best setup, same with bonnets, if the stock bonnet causes things to get to hot then ill bolt my vented one back on.
Quote from: Prof;725426As part of your weight reduction regime, are you going to cull any of the liquids?
If only for the speed run itself, you\'ve got washer fluid for starters - a full bottle of that must be nearly a kilo.
From the thread - you\'ve already eliminated the PS fluid as that system\'s gone :)
Running with less fuel in the tank too ?
It get\'s a bit more of a toss up on reducing oil capacity / coolant capacity - as these can effect the car\'s ability to get rid of the heat - but none the less - some small weight savings maybe ?
to be honest weight reduction wont make a massive difference to top speed, the faster you go the less it affects it, fo example alot of top speed cars actually add ballast to help with stability.
mostly see bruntingthorpe as a place to do top speed, i look at is as a really big drag strip....700bhp isnt needed to do 200mph, you need nowhere need that sort of power, i think honestly with enough space you could hit 200mph with 550bhp, but we would need either the VW 5mile straight or nardi ring to really let the engine stretch its legs.
im doing mostly for accelaration and braking.
I look at it that the lighter you are the faster you can get to 150mph, which in theory means i can use more track in front of me to allow the car to hit 200mph and also when it comes to braking the lighter i am again the more time i have at full throttle.
in terms of liquids, rear waterwash, front waterwash will be gone. ive own the car since april 2009 and ive never used the rear water once so the entire unit will be removed including wider and motor.
looking at fuel, ill need around 5litres of fuel to do a run, but then ill want to drive back to let the engine slowly come down from the run instead of just turning it off when everything is cooking hot.
theres also the high g corner as i come onto the straight, im hoping to pull 1g of lateral grip which means that any fuel will be dragged to the left hand side of the tank so if i go to low ill end up picking up air and thats not good with as im trying to put 2bar of boost through the engine.
im thinking 4gallon of racegas should be enough to stop that, but could really do with speaking to a few of trackguys to see at what level they get fuel starvation.
Im keeping all oil and coolant in the system as i feel the larger ability to deal with heat offsets the potential 1-2kg of weight saving.
there will be a tiny bit of coolant weight saving by going to a purely oil cooled turbo, but its neglable to be fair.
the next update will be xmas so alot of it is just theory currently, unfortunately my ideas are bigger than my wallet
838bhp cossie, thats nuts :eek:
Sounds like you\'ve given it some thought, i was worried you were making assumptions & were risking having your celebrations cut very short by running straight off the end of the runway after the big run :D
Have you had your car weighed at 1150kgs or are you estimating?
I\'ve been weighing everything i\'ve removed from mine (i\'m sad like that), heres some weights you might find interesting:
Decat - 11kg saving (standard cat is 14kgs)
PAS replacement with atomic rex manual rack - 8.5kg saving
Air con - 11.5kg saving
Air pump - 6.5kg saving
Heat shielding from underbody - 4kgs
I\'ve removed all the things you mentioned apart from rats nest (still on twins at mo) and spare wheel (car is an rz so has carbon seats) but don\'t have an frp bonnet or larger rad & i/c and i\'ve so far lost 75kgs.
Being an rz mines supposed to be 1270kgs standard but i\'ve not had it weighed.
Will be getting it weighed in the near future.
If yours was weighed at 1150kgs you\'ve just made my day as i\'ll too be able to hit 1100kgs, something i thought i wouldn\'t be able to do.
Would be nice to find out the rx7 bucked the usual trend of manufacturers claiming weights for cars that were minus any fluids :2Rolleyes
Quote from: Panjy;725446838bhp cossie, thats nuts :eek:
Sounds like you\'ve given it some thought, i was worried you were making assumptions & were risking having your celebrations cut very short by running straight off the end of the runway after the big run :D
Have you had your car weighed at 1150kgs or are you estimating?
I\'ve been weighing everything i\'ve removed from mine (i\'m sad like that), heres some weights you might find interesting:
Decat - 11kg saving (standard cat is 14kgs)
PAS replacement with atomic rex manual rack - 8.5kg saving
Air con - 11.5kg saving
Air pump - 6.5kg saving
Heat shielding from underbody - 4kgs
I\'ve removed all the things you mentioned apart from rats nest (still on twins at mo) and spare wheel (car is an rz so has carbon seats) but don\'t have an frp bonnet or larger rad & i/c and i\'ve so far lost 75kgs.
Being an rz mines supposed to be 1270kgs standard but i\'ve not had it weighed.
Will be getting it weighed in the near future.
If yours was weighed at 1150kgs you\'ve just made my day as i\'ll too be able to hit 1100kgs, something i thought i wouldn\'t be able to do.
Would be nice to find out the rx7 bucked the usual trend of manufacturers claiming weights for cars that were minus any fluids :2Rolleyes
yes ive had it weighed, i used to work for an oil company who has a weigh bridge so i can weigh it any time i like.
i forgot to mention ive got rid of aircon aswell, ill also be converting to atomic rex rack, what do you think of it, any issues at slow speed?
remeber ive also weighed my car with the fuel light glued on so if you weigh yours with fuel your numbers will be different.
since when is your rz 1270kg? the stock r1 is 1250kg and you have lighter seats, i know your discs are slightly bigger but not 20kg heavier!
you could as mentioned earlier remove the rear wiper, motor and tank, most people never use them, im thinking of maybe doing that next weekend, id imagine theres a few kg there.
i think 1130kg can be achieved without having to touch the interior or changin the boot.
have you changed your battery yet, that saved me 11.4kg
glad to see the car is coming along nicely, when is the turbo arriving?
dont forget i have got the dataloggit stuff here if you want to map the car further. I have loaded it on to my laptop so it is ready to plug in and go. I have also got the innovate p2 sensor and software to measure afrs, im sure you can wire your afr meter onto the datalogger too.
Are you still on target for the 10,000 budget? as it seems like you are getting a lot of stuf for the car that will push the budget through the roof?
I have been looking at Atomic Rex\'s steering racks and they arent exactly cheap? Nice bit of kit though
Quote from: Grant Monkhouse;725469glad to see the car is coming along nicely, when is the turbo arriving?
dont forget i have got the dataloggit stuff here if you want to map the car further. I have loaded it on to my laptop so it is ready to plug in and go. I have also got the innovate p2 sensor and software to measure afrs, im sure you can wire your afr meter onto the datalogger too.
Are you still on target for the 10,000 budget? as it seems like you are getting a lot of stuf for the car that will push the budget through the roof?
I have been looking at Atomic Rex\'s steering racks and they arent exactly cheap? Nice bit of kit though
id imagine ill get the turbo and wastegate in february assuming i have no issues.
Yeh thanks for the offer, it will make my mapping much easier, ill have to let you know when i can pop over and we can do some more mapping, if you need yours mapping your more than welcome to pop down and i can do some more work to give you more power.
ive got a innovate full setup installed in the car, so we can just plug it into the datalogit.
ill still be on target on for the 10k as some of the things i am having for the car wont be used on the day hence wont be included in my budget, alot of the stuff thats on the car is because i use the car 7days a week and need to think about what im gonna do after the event, for example i want to go to the ring in the summer so ill to change things, also im changing wheels because i need more grip and my current tyres are getting low.
well i may go for an atomicrex rack but being honest ill just rip all the stock stuff out and loop the line, its free and 98% of the benefits as i cant justify the cost
Quote from: turbotoaster;725473id imagine ill get the turbo and wastegate in february assuming i have no issues.
Yeh thanks for the offer, it will make my mapping much easier, ill have to let you know when i can pop over and we can do some more mapping, if you need yours mapping your more than welcome to pop down and i can do some more work to give you more power.
ive got a innovate full setup installed in the car, so we can just plug it into the datalogit.
ill still be on target on for the 10k as some of the things i am having for the car wont be used on the day hence wont be included in my budget, alot of the stuff thats on the car is because i use the car 7days a week and need to think about what im gonna do after the event, for example i want to go to the ring in the summer so ill to change things, also im changing wheels because i need more grip and my current tyres are getting low.
i didnt think of it that way, so only 10,000 will be on the car for the run. makes sense as all though you are keeping to your budget there are just so many things that have to be bought fot these cars!!
just off topic but i am no longer putting the single on my FD toaster, it is going on the rx4. check out the thred in the old school section, rx4 BridgePort turbo. The car is going to be mental!!
Quote from: Grant Monkhouse;725478i didnt think of it that way, so only 10,000 will be on the car for the run. makes sense as all though you are keeping to your budget there are just so many things that have to be bought fot these cars!!
just off topic but i am no longer putting the single on my FD toaster, it is going on the rx4. check out the thred in the old school section, rx4 BridgePort turbo. The car is going to be mental!!
for example the car might not have new wheels, wont have new bumper or bonnet on the day so those add ons wont be taken into the budget.
once the car is ready to do the run ill right down what ive paid for everything to show i did it for 10k, maybe i might go over by a couple of hundred, i hope not, but im sure people would let me off if i did.
Your keeping your car to low power, taking it on tracks etc?
ill have a look at your rx4 now
well when the rx4 is running i dont think i will be as impressed with the FD on power terms so might sell it and get a normal car, or maybe not. if i get some more extra cash i may put a small single on the FD just to finish the car off and then use it for track days as i can keep the exhisting exhaust with a smaller turbo so as to meet db levels at tracks. if i do keep the car i may return the bodywork to standard and sell my veilside bodykit.
have been thinking about getting the original front bumper out and modifying it so it will flow more air to the fmic, could then swap it onto the car for a trck day
well ill be honest, the veilside bodykit is pretty hideous so the quicker you can sell it the better, though you may struggle to sell the front bumper(no offence)
id just keep it on twins if your gonna track it, save your money and put it towards suspension and aerowork.
well after ive used my stock front bumper for 200mph you can have it off me if you want as ill not need it then.
i do like the bodykit as a whole on my car but the more i look at any bodykit the more i want to put it back to standard looking. very strange and a waste of money on my part but never mind.
Got the 1270kg figure from info found on the net.
To be honest, nearly all the cars i\'ve ever seen weighed have come out a fair bit heavier than the manufacturers claims so i\'ll believe its 1270kgs when i get it on some corner weight scales.
That said, i saw a recent test at brunters of a nissan gtr against a veyron (evo mag did it just to show how quick the veyron was) where both were weighed upfront and they were bang on the manufacturers claims with fuel in so maybe things have changed.
Mine came with a smoothed rear hatch so luckily for me i didn\'t have to remove the rear wiper.
I have a race battery i\'m in the middle of fitting. Mine was 10.5kgs less than the full stock battery and box etc. I\'ve still got to put in 3m of heavy gauge cable, make up a fitting kit to fit it in the bins etc though so i\'m expecting the gain to be more like 8kgs.
I bought my atomic rex rack secondhand and at the mo its put the steering out by a mile (pulls very strongly to the left). Will get that sorted soon. Even with that issue though i\'ve got used to it very quickly. It is very hard work at car park manouvering type speeds but once you get above 20mph its fine.
Much more feel through the wheel (you feel every little bump in the road) and much more stable at speed. Tidys up the engine bay no end as well which is a bonus :D
well all my weights are with the car running on fumes, that way everytime i take weight out of the car i have a \'base\' weight to go off.
id imagine 1270kg will be with alot of fuel onboard.
you should find yourself a local scrap yard, run the car down so your superlow on fuel then stick it on there, that will give you a base weight, from that any things you do to the car will be able to be seen.
i think realistically ours cars should be about the same weight now, though yours should be lighter
what did you pay for your battery setup, mine cost me £100 all in.
I think the only difference weight wise with the rz was the carbon seats but you have those anyway.
The rest of the benefits of an rz were good for performance but not weight - different diff ratio, bigger front brakes, twin oil coolers (other models had those though) and bilstein shocks (not sure if they gave any weight advantage).
I got an odyssey extreme 25 (pc680) and terminal adaptors for £100 delivered. Still have to buy the cable, connectors, circuit breaker, bits for fitting so reckon i\'ll end up closer to £200. You win :p
I\'m gunna get mine corner weighted as i\'d like to get the handling as spot on as i can. A guy on sxoc (i had a 200sx before the rex) has set up his own tuning company (horsham developments) and was doing corner weighing for £30 so i\'ll get it down to him some time.
wow, £30 is spot on, shame i live so far north as id go down so i could set my car up.
to be fair i need to finish my weight saving execise before i stuck it on the proper scales.
you have better brakes and a shorter diff than me, i also have the twin oil coolers with mine being a type r1
are you running coilovers now so you can sort your ride height and corner weighting up?
Have you bought the box for your battery yet, mine cost me £28 for a bright red one off ebay.
Yeah, £30 is a really good deal.
I\'m going to avoid coilovers if poss as to be honest the bilsteins on mine are awesome. They\'re firm enough to give really good cornering but have enough give in them to make normal driving very comfortable too. Perfect compromise really. Only downside is they could be a little lower.
I\'m going to get the cars suspension and steering fully set up / aligned to allow for the weight loss and manual steering using the standard components adjustability.
I bought coilovers for my 200sx and even though they were the softest spring rates i could get they were so hard they ruined the cars cornering (actually slowed the car down in corners that were anything other than race track smooth due to skipping). Made me realise how careful you have to be when choosing suspension and was part of the reason i went for an rz when choosing the rex.
I\'m going to mount my battery in one of my rear bins (that was the other reason the rz is a bit lighter, it has no rear seats / belts etc) so shouldn\'t need a battery box.
Does the r1 have rear bins instead of seats (could be a way to lose weight if it doesn\'t)?
well you wont be able to corner weight the car mate without coilovers as you wont be able to use the suspension to adjust the weight across the chassis.
im running tein superstreets and on the softest settings they are just like factory suspension, turn them to hard and they are pretty decent for a track car on road tyres with no aero, that way you can lower the car to lower the CoG, normally aim to have 25" between the ground and the top of the arch front and rear, any lower and you risk bottoming out the shocks.
seemed to work fine for me on a sprint day with redline, outsiders said it looked like i was carrying 10mph more speed through a long lefthand turn than anyone else that day(including people on 888s)
the r1 came with seats not bins, but ive taken the back part out and lef the bottom bit in......i did take it out but it weighs nothing as its just a bit of foam and it keeps the diff quiet when im driving to work, it weighs about 500grams id imagine so for the road ill leave it in, will take it out for the top speed run of course.
also i dont have any seatbelts in the front or rear, just harnesses, no point in having seatbelts when noone is ever gonna go in the back, if im desperate to take someone somewhere ill let them sit in the boot.
At the risk of being boring in amongst all this interesting high power chat.... any chance of that battery box for my stock 99 please??
Sorry, when i said corner weigh the car i meant i\'m just gunna find out what weight i have over each wheel. That way i could possibly locate things like the battery where it will be more beneficial.
You\'re right, i can\'t adjust the weight over each wheel without having preload adjustment which my bilsteins don\'t have.
I\'m just gunna have the camber / toe / caster set up using what i\'ve got.
Like i said, the suspension on my car is very good so unless i one day decide to spend silly money on some ohlins or aragosta suspension i\'m gunna try and leave it as it is.
In terms of you being able to carry more speed through corners than others on r888\'s i imagine thats largely down to your driving - anyone planning to do a 200mph run in a car with no aero or serious brake upgrades has obviously taken a fair few brave pills :chat
By the way, is your top speed run part of a group run that peeps can come and watch? I imagine a fair few on here would like to go along, myself included.
Quote from: Big Al;725625At the risk of being boring in amongst all this interesting high power chat.... any chance of that battery box for my stock 99 please??
hey mate, im sorry i forgot about you, ill take some pics of it later so you can see it
Quote from: Panjy;725677Sorry, when i said corner weigh the car i meant i\'m just gunna find out what weight i have over each wheel. That way i could possibly locate things like the battery where it will be more beneficial.
You\'re right, i can\'t adjust the weight over each wheel without having preload adjustment which my bilsteins don\'t have.
I\'m just gunna have the camber / toe / caster set up using what i\'ve got.
Like i said, the suspension on my car is very good so unless i one day decide to spend silly money on some ohlins or aragosta suspension i\'m gunna try and leave it as it is.
In terms of you being able to carry more speed through corners than others on r888\'s i imagine thats largely down to your driving - anyone planning to do a 200mph run in a car with no aero or serious brake upgrades has obviously taken a fair few brave pills :chat
By the way, is your top speed run part of a group run that peeps can come and watch? I imagine a fair few on here would like to go along, myself included.
well id imagine if you have alreaedy taken alot of weight out of the rear then its gonna be harder to get that 50/50 weight distribution, saying that putting 6kg from the front of the car to the rear will help a little, maybe look at a lighter bonnet to hep aswell....saying that you removed aircon/ps so thats gotta help, any pics of your engine bay?
maybe its because of my driving, i just kept my foot in all around the corners, the time to let off is when you have completed the circuit was my opinion, seemed to work even if everyone was expecting me to crash at any moment haha.
Im not super brave, ill put my glasses on when i do the run so i can see my braking point clearly...........safety first!!
Its organised with redline magazine, they are hiring the venue out for the day, i only need to give 48hrs notice once the car is mapped.
Im not sure if other people are allowed, alot of people have asked me so we will have to see, my housemate is bringing his camera and we are fitting a camera in the car to record the run
Most of my weight has been lost from the front - Air con, airbox, air pump, bumper bar, battery, power steering, front cat etc. Putting in a bigger intercooler & rad soon so that will bump it back up some.
I reckon i\'ve only lost 10kgs from the rear - catback, rear wiper, heat shielding, carbon cannister etc plus the lack of rear seats etc as it came from the factory. I still have my spare wheel but may end up with a can of tyre foam depending on what the balance is. I\'ll be interested to see what the corner weights are to be honest.
May end up with the race battery in the front depending on the results :D
By the way, do you have any idea on what weight you lost when going single turbo?
Keep us posted on the run, at the very least post up a vid if peeps can\'t get along to see it :Thumbs-up
spare wheel and tools was the first thing i removed, over 10kg right there!
id say loose as much weight as you can from the front as taking weight out of the back is alot easier.
if you weigh it and its rear heavy, take out the spare wheel, you want the car as light as possible.
just remembered about the carbon cannister, dont actually know where your under the car that is but if its doing nothing i might remove it.
cannister and rearwiper/motor and bottle should help on the rear as ive just been chatting to jon at atomicrex and weve decided the next thing to do is sort out my fuel pump setup.
I was gonna be running to ebay 345gph pumps in tank as this was the cheapest and simpliest option, but after talking to him hes gonna build me an external setup for the same money, ill get that done just before xmas(will give me chance to use my last couple of days holiday)
so ill be running 2x044 pumps being fed a swirlpot with a lift pump, this will all be in the wheelwell in the boot covered in a bit of foam with a ali sheet over the top to keep the noise down, not sure what weight it will back to the chassis but needs must.
well i havent gone single turbo yet, but id imagine i might actually gain a little weight from it.
the big turbo, wastegate and manifold must equal or be heavier than the twins.
probably someone like colum or robrs is the best one to ask that question as ill be running the same size turbo as those guys.
any pics of your car, as i dont think ive seen it yet?
You\'ve got me thinking on the spare wheel & tool kit. Think i\'ll have it out and weigh it at the weekend, also the rear bumper bar :D
Might even things out a bit.
Carbon cannister loses a kilo or so and removes a pesky solenoid from under the bonnet. Pretty easy to remove, lives near the fuel tank on the passenger side if i remember correctly.
Apparently, if you go with a stainless manifolded single you can lose a fair bit of weight over the twins. Single filter instead of two, filter pipework & y pipe removed, stainless instaed of cast iron mani, shorter front pipe, no solenoids & associated vacuum boxes etc. As said thats "apparently" but does seem to add up.
I\'ll stick some pics up of my car in the near future, when its looking a little healthier (lots of bits missing at the mo).
well ive decided next month im gonna remove the bumper brace, canistor, rear wiper/motor/bottle
to offset that ill be adding the dual pump setup, so hopefully overall ill have lost a little bit of weight.
i think 1100kg is doable without it being a mad racecar, just takes a bit of thought
good thinking about the y pipe etc, id forgotton about that, will have to see when i replace everything on which weighs the most.....my thoughts were im gonna run a turbo that weighs 18kg, thats very heavy but it may balance out in the end.
make sure you link me into your pics as it will be interesting to see how our weightloss figures end up together :)
I\'m not sure about the 1100kg mark, running completely stripped out without any interior, sound deadening, heater, radio, spare wheel with a roll cage, a small turbo and half a tank of juice I\'m around the 1200kg mark. I\'m running 2 buckets so you could remove a little bit of weight.
Not sure what the Roll cage weighs though. Its only a basic custom cage setup.
Shaun
Are you thinking dry weight or with fluids ?
well im 1150kg now.
i can remove power steering, thats 8.5kg
carbon splitter should save me 2kg
rear wiper, motor, waterbottle should save me 5kg
rear bumper bar is about 5kg
sound deadening has to be 10kg id imagine
thats 30kg right there.
remember you have 40kg of fuel and 30kg of cage in your car, when i weigh my car its with the fuel light on, but with all other fluids, that way i know exactly how much weight i loose when i take stuff out.
having loads of fuel in the car makes it harder to work out weight loss.
Very true. Was done during corner weighting to get a good idea of stability in the "on track" trim.
There is easily 10kg of sound deadening in the car. Very hard to remove though !
Also the fuel gauge is also adjustable in the pfc datalogic menu. Sometimes tuners tweek the gauge so you don\'t run too low on fuel.
Shaun
im not looking forward to doing the sound deadening, that will be the very last thing i look at because i want to keep it very much a road car, hence full interior, stereo and carpets are staying.
sorting out my fuel pumps next month so hopefully will rip out another 15kg of weight while im there
Also the fuel gauge is also adjustable in the pfc datalogic menu. Sometimes tuners tweek the gauge so you don\'t run too low on fuel.
???
didnt know that mate. how
Quote from: shaunwil;726081Also the fuel gauge is also adjustable in the pfc datalogic menu. Sometimes tuners tweek the gauge so you don\'t run too low on fuel.
Shaun
errrrrrmm you been smoking crack Shaun???? LOL
There is no option , unless you can show me and I have been smoking crack all these years whilst tuning hahaha
Possibly.......................... not.
It was something I was told about and I\'m sure I saw the option of adjusting the % of full against the resistance of the sensor. Good way of you reducing the risk of running low.
Do remember the last time I emptied the tank for some welding there was a lot in the tank for so little on the gauge. Only had a 25lt Jerry tank !
Although I did look at about 4 different programs when looking for a setup for the LPG !
Just downloaded the Demo and can\'t find the Option, DOH ! Can\'t see it in the LINKECU software either !
Sorry for the dodgy info !!!!!!!!
Shaun
Come to think of it does the ECU even see the resistance from the Tank sensor ? Looking at the Wiring diagram it doesn\'t !
DOH !
Shaun
Quote from: shaunwil;726113Come to think of it does the ECU even see the resistance from the Tank sensor ? Looking at the Wiring diagram it doesn\'t !
DOH !
Shaun
It\'s only a ping pong ball on a stick with a potentiometer :rollin, I\'m not sure I\'d trust it\'s accuraccy enough to really take it too much into account anyway personally
True, when I look at the FB fuel sensor when the tank is full it shows empty, and when empty its full :Giggle
Shaun
Quote from: shaunwil;726116True, when I look at the FB fuel sensor when the tank is full it shows empty, and when empty its full :Giggle
Shaun
Is that because you have got the gauge in upside-down? Ha.
So if you can alter the fuel gauge on the datalogger then if I set mine to full all the time that means I don\'t have to fill up again and my mpg is better than anything ever that will be or has been created! Hahaha
Toaster have you thought about making your cars surface slippier for the run? As with the problem of air becoming more like a liquid at top speed? Surely a well polished and waxed car will help slip through the air?
Will you also be putting tape on the gaps between your wings and bonnets to reduce drag? Just like the topgear idiots did when they went to the salt flats in America in modern muscle cars to do a flying mile?
Sounds like rubbish I\'m asking but makes sense to make the car as aero and slippy as possible?
Myth Busters did a program on this....
It was based around improving the economy, which is effectively a by product of reducing drag and improving the potential top speed.
Polishing the car did make a slight difference, but to really make a difference they covered the car in clay and then put golf ball style dimples into the car.
Quote from: Grant Monkhouse;726120Toaster have you thought about making your cars surface slippier for the run? As with the problem of air becoming more like a liquid at top speed? Surely a well polished and waxed car will help slip through the air?
Will you also be putting tape on the gaps between your wings and bonnets to reduce drag? Just like the topgear idiots did when they went to the salt flats in America in modern muscle cars to do a flying mile?
Sounds like rubbish I\'m asking but makes sense to make the car as aero and slippy as possible?
yep, already thought about that, ill be taping up all the seams in the front of the car, removing the windscreen wipers, mirrors and rear spoiler, having the car almost scraping the ground it will be so low and giving it a good clean, its gonna be in the magazine so i could do with giving it a good polish.
Talking to jon now about possibly making a fuel tank with built in swirl pot at the bottom, this would ensure i always get adequate fuel and also save buying a lift pump.
ill need 2 fuel pumps to be able to provide enough fuel and fitting them both in the stock tank isnt ideal, but then having an additional lift pump and swirl pot isnt either.
the main reason aswell means ill be able to make a proper diffuser for the rear end to provide some downforce without the associated drag and clean up the underside from turbulance.
ill be making the diffuser myself, ive already measured everything up and wil be using two 2x1m pieces of ali, bolting it possibly to where the gearbox brace is and running it until it sticks out past the rear bumper by 2inches
As always I\'m bucking the trend..........I intend to make my car heavier and I reckon a battery box will hold the front down nicely!!!!!
Sorry to butt in again, just seen an opportunity to make my car complete. It is stock apart from the box and some of the tools in the boot. So good luck with your run, I am following this thread with real interest.
No need for photo\'s as you showed it earlier in your build pictures....................................email is Al.Dixon@yahoo.com (Al.Dixon@yahoo.com).
ok mate, well i never really have time to go to the post office on the other side of the city so if you want to come and fetch it, its yours for nothing, i know its a journey but going to the post office in our city centre is pretty much a full day job
When I went to buy a diff brace off TonyC he was telling me about atomic rexs fuel tanks with the swirl pot inside as he was/had one on his car for racing.
It sounds like a good bit of kit, is the new setup going to be the same cost as what your original idea was?
The diffuser sounds good, have you got a design from the Internet for it? As you don\'t want to accidentally give the car lift instead of suck down? Or is it that I am thinking that a venturi is specifically designed bit of kit when it is actually quite simple?
from what i can gather, turbotoasters fuel tank design is different to the intank system that atomic produces. the \'standard\' atomic fuel setup utilises the original fuel tank, which would get in the way of the diffuser.
Quote from: Grant Monkhouse;726363When I went to buy a diff brace off TonyC he was telling me about atomic rexs fuel tanks with the swirl pot inside as he was/had one on his car for racing.
It sounds like a good bit of kit, is the new setup going to be the same cost as what your original idea was?
The diffuser sounds good, have you got a design from the Internet for it? As you don\'t want to accidentally give the car lift instead of suck down? Or is it that I am thinking that a venturi is specifically designed bit of kit when it is actually quite simple?
well im still working a price out with him at the moment, so if he comes up with a number im happy with he will have my business, im not gonna spend a fortune on this as really i dont need it to do 200mph, but it would help me in the future so i can do other things, i dont want to spend money messing about with trying to get 2 big pumps in the original tank or running a swirlpot and lift pump if this option is simplier
(http://img259.imageshack.us/img259/297/getinliner.jpg)
this is a rough idea of what we have discussed, with this configuration it would be almost impossible to get fuel starvation, id imagine you would have to flip the car to cause that issue...in which case the fuel pumps not getting fuel would be the last of my concerns.
but to be honest im not quite happy yet with that design because it would mean i would have to cut a hole in my wheel well for the bottom of the tank to poke through and then run the pumps underneath the car.
Sometimes i may not appear a bufty but i HATE cutting into a shell, ill cut bumpers/bonnets etc to pieces but i dont want to touch the original shell.
so my thoughts are to buy something along these lines
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/RACING-ALLOY-FUEL-TANK-40-LITRE-8-8-GALLON-AN10-/250713734243?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item3a5fb3fc63
i can fit this above my wheel well, as you can see theres an slightly lower pick up point on the tank to connect my 2 fuel pumps to help against fuel starvation and i can put the pumps directly underneath the tank in the wheel well, this way i get to keep my shell hole free
So id be looking at £200 for the pumps and £200 for the tank and connecters, i think realistically thats gonna be the cheapest way of doing things.
in regards of the diffuser, its something ive designed myself after studying aero design and spending a bit of time looking at the underneath of the rx7.
Originally came up with the idea while i was designing one for stav for his fc
(http://img121.imageshack.us/img121/784/37914101502669835604595.jpg)
i then looked at my own car as i originally had an idea for my own, but looking at the one for the fc it made me realise how much the fuel tank gets in the way on the fd.
to give you an idea of how mine will look, when i get time ill sort out a picture, but here is racing beats which is similar to my design.
(http://img690.imageshack.us/img690/14/racingbeatdiffuser.jpg)
only to help with even more downforce ill mine will run more vertical bars.
Quote from: marco;726369from what i can gather, turbotoasters fuel tank design is different to the intank system that atomic produces. the \'standard\' atomic fuel setup utilises the original fuel tank, which would get in the way of the diffuser.
exactly, it all depends on what jon offers in terms of price, that will determine the outcome, but the ebay tank and pumps in the wheelwell is looking more favourable in my eyes.
how would more vertical bars help to produce downforce? these diffuser thingies have always seemed to be magic to me......
The rear diffuser incorporates a venturi tunnel to create a venturi effect. The venturi effect is a phenomenon which is described by Bernoulli\'s equation. When a fluid, such as air, is flowing through a pipe, and is forced through a narrower section of pipe, the pressure decreases while the velocity increases. This is similar to the Bernoulli effect for enclosed conduits which states that the higher the velocity of a fluid, the lower the pressure. Thus, as the air moves faster underneath the car and through the rear diffuser, it causes the high pressure air to push down on the car in order to reach the lower pressure air. This creates downforce which exerts a downward pressure on a moving vehicle and helps to counteract loss of control at high speeds. The faster the vehicle is moving, the more downforce is created, so vertical bars split the air flow into more sections which in turn increases the velocity and downforce
^^^^^^^ that was what I was going to put! Lol.
This project amazes me all the time, I now wish I had thought about what I wanted to do with my car in the first place I stead of just modifying it. Having a goal for something in a project is what I will do from now on. Saves wasting money and makes learning about specific things for that goal more practical than trying to learn everything! Keep up the work toaster.
Do you need any help with the fab work on the diffuser as I know a couple of welder fabricators that would help you out if I had a word with them?
seen a few of them demon tanks and they are nice, the weld work is spot on and for the money i have yet to see better...
Just in case you have\'nt got around to removing the rear bumper bar yet, i had mine off today - and of course i weighed it like the saddo i am :D
6kgs, nice surprise that.
Bit of a pain in the ars* to get the bumper off - all boot interior trim & rear lights have to be removed to get to all the mounting fixings. I also ended up removing the electric aerial (0.83kgs by the way - i\'m gunna bin it & fit a bee sting to save 1/2 a kilo :D) & abs ecu to get to the clip fittings that are hidden down inside the rear quarters.
Glad to see your gunna do some aero, was a bit worried about that side of your plans :Thumbs-up
Quote from: Grant Monkhouse;726431^^^^^^^ that was what I was going to put! Lol.
This project amazes me all the time, I now wish I had thought about what I wanted to do with my car in the first place I stead of just modifying it. Having a goal for something in a project is what I will do from now on. Saves wasting money and makes learning about specific things for that goal more practical than trying to learn everything! Keep up the work toaster.
Do you need any help with the fab work on the diffuser as I know a couple of welder fabricators that would help you out if I had a word with them?
to be fair im not guaranting im going for this fuel tank and diffuser set up, this is just whats in my head, when i get paid ill cost everything out and see how it stands but at the moment it seems to make the most sense.
so ive got a new fuel rail arriving on monday which ill show pics of then the next update after that will be the end of the month
ill probably pop rivit the diffuser together as its the simpliest way, should cost about £80 worth of ali to make up.
Quote from: MaLicE;726452seen a few of them demon tanks and they are nice, the weld work is spot on and for the money i have yet to see better...
thats good to hear, demon is actually about 5mins from my house, ive had a couple of things off him over the last year and ill probably get a few more things aswell.
Im sure this will be known as \'the ebay car\'
Quote from: Panjy;726568Just in case you have\'nt got around to removing the rear bumper bar yet, i had mine off today - and of course i weighed it like the saddo i am :D
6kgs, nice surprise that.
Bit of a pain in the ars* to get the bumper off - all boot interior trim & rear lights have to be removed to get to all the mounting fixings. I also ended up removing the electric aerial (0.83kgs by the way - i\'m gunna bin it & fit a bee sting to save 1/2 a kilo :D) & abs ecu to get to the clip fittings that are hidden down inside the rear quarters.
Glad to see your gunna do some aero, was a bit worried about that side of your plans :Thumbs-up
wow, great bit of info there on the bumper bar, i had a look at the manual about how to remove the rear bumper and it looks a proper pain in the arse.
can you tell me the sequence you went through to remove it in your own words, will be usefull for me to have for when i attempt doing mine.
the 6kg can help offset the diffuser and pumps for weight:)
No problem.
Jack the rear up a little and remove two nuts - one per side on bottom of bumper.
Open doors and remove both interior rear quarter trims.
Open boot & remove centre (washer bottle) trim.
Remove both left & right boot trims (will need the cabin rear quarters out first).
Unbolt abs ecu & move aside.
Unbolt electric aerial & move aside / remove.
Remove both rear lights.
Remove rear centre light section.
Remove number plate & support bracket.
Use torx set to remove bolts (x8) securing bumper top in light recesses & centre section.
Remove 2x nuts per side in inner rear quarter panels.
Unclip 2x plastic clips per side in inner rear quarter panels (be prepared to lose some skin!!).
Remove bumper.
Remove both foam sections.
Unbolt 4x bolts per side holding bumper bar to support brackets.
Remove bumper bar whilst carefully feeding wiring for bumper lights through gaps.
Remove 2x bolts per side holding support brackets on & remove brackets.
And she\'s all off :Thumbs-up
The number plate lights are originally fixed to the bumper bar so a little bracket will need making up to fix them back on. Nothing that can\'t be knocked up with a single piece of ally plate though.
anyway an update to keep it moving until i get paid.
I managed to get a great deal on a new secondary fuel rail, now im gonna be running 2x2200cc injectors and as these are top feed and not side feed like the stock ones then a new rail is needed.
Normally these are around £120 but a bit of hunting got one for £80 brand new!!!
Box comes so feel excited.
(http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/2462/p15111019590001.jpg)
new shiny rail, fully anodised in red(to match the car) with nice little bit of engraving.
compare that to a really crappy £150 one that leaks from america and its a bargain.
(http://img687.imageshack.us/img687/2701/p15111020010002.jpg)
You can just see the holes at the end of the rails for the injectors and the threaded connections for the fuel lines to bolt to(currently covered in tape for protection)
because the injectors are different shape than the stock ones you fit these sleeves to the injectors so you get a tight seal, hence it came with these, notice the little rubber rings to help seal
(http://img573.imageshack.us/img573/643/p15111020010003.jpg)
well thats it for now.
at the end of the month ive decided to buy my 2 fuel pumps, fuel tank and fuel pressure regulator, trying to get the main boxes ticked now!...will also rip a few kgs out of the car to keep me busy while im sorting the pumps out
Did this ever get finished? It would be good to find out.
Matt
^ lol you seriously have no idea?
Quote from: arrouk;821077Did this ever get finished? It would be good to find out.
Matt
Nope, didn\'t even get close. Crashed the car, decided to build a track car paying atomic Rex to build it for him, basically the biggest tight arse met the most expensive rotary car builder. Ended up in court between the 2 of them. That\'s as brief as I can do but there was a lot of crap involved in all of it.
Turned into this thread
http://www.mazdarotaryclub.com/forums/showthread.php?t=68261
Ended up with this
http://www.mazdarotaryclub.com/forums/showthread.php?t=68261