Mazda Rotary Club

Cars by Model Type => 1st generation RX-7's => Topic started by: 12at on December 24, 2009, 10:23:57 AM

Title: 12at half bridge FB
Post by: 12at on December 24, 2009, 10:23:57 AM
Thought i would post up some info of my car..

Its a 84 FB, bought it from a mate and its got 36,000 on the clock.
I originall was going a NA injected set up but decided that 140-160hp wasnt enough when ive been use to 400rwhp in a 800kg car..

I originally had the engine ported and built by Era De Klerk with hurley 1 piece seals.. The car would not start and was an absolute ball ache to try and get running even with a tow start.. the engine with a mazda comp tester showed 40psi both front and back rotors.. I will not be using hurely junk again - Mazda all the way!!!

So after 6 weeks of playing with the car i decided to pull the engine and rebuild it myself with some mazda 2 piece 3mms. I put the engine back in and the thing fired on the key with the same tune..

All of the work on the car has been done by myself: exhaust, wiring of ecu and gauges etc , intercooler piping etc..

Hope to get some miles on the new engine and get  a good tune in it.. The car should make in the 300s on 12-14psi, hopefully high 300s or low 400s with water injection..

Here are some pics..

(http://i1017.photobucket.com/albums/af296/bo0557/12at%20rebuild/DSC_0023.jpg)
(http://i1017.photobucket.com/albums/af296/bo0557/12at%20rebuild/DSC_0060.jpg)(http://i1017.photobucket.com/albums/af296/bo0557/12at%20rebuild/DSC_0072.jpg)(http://i1017.photobucket.com/albums/af296/bo0557/12at%20rebuild/DSC_0079.jpg)
Title: 12at half bridge FB
Post by: 12at on December 24, 2009, 10:38:03 AM
heres a engine bay pic less cooler piping

Turbo is a TO4r 1.15 rear with a 50mm GFB waste gate all from Aus

(http://i1017.photobucket.com/albums/af296/bo0557/12at%20rebuild/DSC_0412.jpg)
Title: 12at half bridge FB
Post by: David Nock (RIP) on December 24, 2009, 11:21:25 AM
Glad you got it sorted No.12
And your electrical fault is cured...pleased for you.
A Merry Christmas indeed.
Title: 12at half bridge FB
Post by: Christopher on December 24, 2009, 10:54:01 PM
Sweet!
look interesting. Will you be running at rotor stock next year?

Pete.
Title: 12at half bridge FB
Post by: dubber91 on December 24, 2009, 11:22:07 PM
hey damo - how big is the cooler you put up front? looks neat and tidy.....
Title: 12at half bridge FB
Post by: 12at on December 26, 2009, 07:08:40 PM
Its the same width as the 3 row radiator that i put in it.. Not sure but if you want the dimmensions for the 1300 let me know..
 
Also this evening i did a compression test on the engine this evening.. The engine has about an hrs running time and no road miles as yet but was well happy with the result of 100psi cold front and back compaired to the old engine with the .... 1 piece apex steels that produced under 4 bar !!
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gqh6R6I9zo8
Title: 12at half bridge FB
Post by: Jit on December 26, 2009, 08:11:15 PM
I knew it would start on the button with 2 piece Mazda seals! Glad you decided to junk those useless hurley apex seals before they damaged your housings! Have u still got them? might cut them down and use them as toothpicks. Those are fantastic numbers on the Mazda 2 piece seals which will get higher as you put more miles on her. Cant wait to see it all mapped up...might have to pop down again!
Title: 12at half bridge FB
Post by: 12at on December 26, 2009, 11:09:03 PM
yeh man thanks heaps for poping past to do the comp test for me..
 
once ive run it in well do another comp test to see how it with some miles on it..
 
As for Hurleys - i feel like posting them back once if bent them into a shape and saying thanks for the piece of shyte product and they arent worth the £10 piece of mild steel they are made from !!
 
Heres a vid of how it starts now after this 6 weeks of head banging to try and get it started..
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNEzMs8y_OM
Title: 12at half bridge FB
Post by: dubber91 on December 27, 2009, 11:09:07 AM
when are we mapping it damo?
Title: 12at half bridge FB
Post by: 12at on December 27, 2009, 12:24:28 PM
Quote from: dubber91;661679when are we mapping it damo?

 
Priority is the family now dude..:King
 
RX7 will be done soon, then it will be :) :burnout:burnout
Title: 12at half bridge FB
Post by: 12at on December 27, 2009, 04:36:01 PM
did a little more work on the FB today and put a few miles on her.. here is a little pic of the engine back complete..
 
(http://i1017.photobucket.com/albums/af296/bo0557/12at%20rebuild/photo.jpg)
Title: 12at half bridge FB
Post by: dubber91 on December 27, 2009, 06:14:08 PM
:2Rolleyes red looks gay. plus the pipies need polish.
Title: 12at half bridge FB
Post by: 12at on December 27, 2009, 06:50:13 PM
Says someone that uses baby bludheater hose you big poof !!!

Times are ruffin my household dude, got a family... No more being spent on the car!!

The car may be up for sale soon so see how it goes....
Title: 12at half bridge FB
Post by: dubber91 on December 29, 2009, 09:25:19 AM
ill give you 1k
Title: 12at half bridge FB
Post by: rdpeterson8 on January 01, 2010, 07:20:12 PM
heres some positive press for hurley seals after a bagging from rookies ;)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LqzasRzBpJI
Title: 12at half bridge FB
Post by: 12at on January 01, 2010, 07:45:12 PM
Quote from: rdpeterson8;662619heres some positive press for hurley seals after a bagging from rookies ;)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LqzasRzBpJI

hahahahhah 1 of 2 that i know that successfully runs with 1 piece hurley seals!! I did speak with hurley and they said the comp was a joke and it should have at least 100psi which it clearly didnt!! Spoke to the Original engine builder and had no support. i will never take advice from anyone again here in the UK - i will go with what i know works!!
 
I may be a rookie at building engines but your forgetting a few things:

Title: 12at half bridge FB
Post by: rdpeterson8 on January 01, 2010, 09:03:39 PM
Quote from: 12at;662623
  • that FD is a drag car - it can be a pig to start and only has to last for 10 seconds.
  • i had a brand new engine and it never started
  • it must start on the key as its NOTa drag car

are you saying the car in the video doesnt start off the key and that it only last 10 seconds??????? i think the burley owner would knock your block off if you said to him!!
Title: 12at half bridge FB
Post by: 12at on January 01, 2010, 10:08:59 PM
Quote from: rdpeterson8;662635are you saying the car in the video doesnt start off the key and that it only last 10 seconds??????? i think the burley owner would knock your block off if you said to him!!

 
go back to xile champ your input is not needed here :)
Title: 12at half bridge FB
Post by: rdpeterson8 on January 01, 2010, 11:47:16 PM
not on xile champ but dont like seeing false accusations against hurleys. could end you up in trouble.
Title: 12at half bridge FB
Post by: Jit on January 02, 2010, 12:02:18 AM
dude look at the facts here:

engine 1 didnt want to start. 2 parameters have changed - builder and apex seals - thats it. everything else is as is - same cranking map, same ancillaries, same internals apex seals aside. engine 2 starts on the key and has 7 bar compression without any running in; itll prob peak around 7.5ish which is fantastic for a bridge.

so - 2 factors have changed - engine builder and apex seals. Im not questioning eras engine building as hes built a good engine for another friend of mine. So that leaves the apex seals.

Or we could get silly and start blaming the tooth fairy.

Furthermore ive just 2 weeks ago tested an engine for a friend of mine looking to buy a car equipped with mick hurleys finest sports rebuild. 2000 miles in and didnt produce 6 bar. Not exactly something to write home about.

No ones making false accusations about hurleys - everything I or Damon has said has been corroborated by facts.

Not one exile? Your post in Simon929s FS thread would disagree.
Title: 12at half bridge FB
Post by: rdpeterson8 on January 02, 2010, 12:06:03 AM
sorry dont have to be a \'member\' of xile to look at the posts fool.

how much running in did this engine do then Jit? and why are you a reported guest?
Title: 12at half bridge FB
Post by: Jit on January 02, 2010, 12:11:11 AM
How much running in it did is irrelevant. Why should someone have to run their engine in just so that itll start on the key? Thats absurd. The results on the mazda seals (which have had the same running in as the hurleys did - ie none) speak for themselves.
Also i dont feel the need to try and belittle someone with cheap swipes at their name or indeed cheap insults.
Title: 12at half bridge FB
Post by: rdpeterson8 on January 02, 2010, 12:16:26 AM
they are race seals quite different from stock mazda. typing tit for jit was an accident which i fixed. i will let you carry on with your car as you make clear you dont want my comments which begs why did you do this thread??
Title: 12at half bridge FB
Post by: gsb876 on January 02, 2010, 12:38:55 PM
Guys can we calm it down a level please,

And please do not threaten other users on the forum please as this will not be tolerated.

" i think the burley owner would knock your block off if you said to him!!"

"not on xile champ but dont like seeing false accusations against hurleys. could end you up in trouble"
Title: 12at half bridge FB
Post by: clive on January 02, 2010, 12:43:30 PM
O/K people we are getting multiple reported posts about this thread from members so calm this down please.

If your going to post facts post facts but keep personal insults well away from this club as our members clearly do not like people bitching at each other !
Title: 12at half bridge FB
Post by: Rotaryguru on January 02, 2010, 01:03:12 PM
If no-one has realised, 12at is bo0557. He\'s been banned once before from MRC for his poor comments. He is only on forums to antagonise and annoy others.

He\'s been booted from Ausrotary, Exile and MRC before. And he\'s still the same.
Title: 12at half bridge FB
Post by: arrouk on January 02, 2010, 01:31:46 PM
well I\'m gonna stick my 2p worth in.........

i have been using Hurley\'s race seals for the last few years, and tbh i had a very similar problem with starting at first.
when i pulled the motor down after about 8-10hrs run time and 500 miles i found the springs had gone flat so they were replaced and everything else was left the same, i now have a car that has better compression and more importantly starts on the key(most of the time) although compression still isnt as high as i would like this may not all be down to the seals.
that said as/when i pull the motor down again i will be using 2pc seals so as to get better compression.
i would also like to comment that these seals have had a very hard life with me, several failures of ancillaries, fuel surge when cornering (cos I\'m dumb and didn\'t check my fuel level while chasing other cars) and me learning how to map.........

so in conclusion i would recommend the Hurley 1pc seals for certain uses but not in a road car.

i will let you all make your own decisions and draw your own conclusions, but if any body would like a chat about my experience with them please feel free to make contact.

This install does look good and i look forward to seeing how this goes after tuning.

Matt
Title: 12at half bridge FB
Post by: 12at on January 02, 2010, 06:33:52 PM
Cheers for your input on the hurleys and yes agree they aren\'t for something that needs to be reliable..

Hope to tune it in the next few months and get it ready for spring
Title: 12at half bridge FB
Post by: shaunwil on January 02, 2010, 09:44:55 PM
Back on track its going to be one quick little car and sounds fantastic.

Shaun
Title: 12at half bridge FB
Post by: mooragerx7 on January 04, 2010, 02:10:54 PM
good to see you got her running bud kant wait to see her on the road :Thumbs-up
Title: 12at half bridge FB
Post by: 12at on January 05, 2010, 08:54:42 AM
Cheers michael yeh its really good to finally have it running right after the few months of torture trying to get the first one running right!!
Title: 12at half bridge FB
Post by: mickh on January 08, 2010, 10:41:29 AM
hello 12at give me a call on 02476 661357 i would be very interested to hear the details regarding this engine.I remember speaking to you before and would like to know whats happened since that conversation to turn this into a hurley rant.I will as ever listen to your concerns and findings with interest and try and get to the bottom of this.Also Jit you can also ring me and voice your concerns regarding any customers of mine who are not happy with their dealings with my company.My office hours are 8.30 till 5.00 monday to friday you can also leave a message and contact number and i will return your call.
regards Mick Hurley
Title: 12at half bridge FB
Post by: 12at on January 18, 2010, 10:38:18 AM
Thanks for taking the time mick to have a chat about the engine that was build by Era..

Its clear that the engine that was built should of had more compression than it did,how ever since changing them in my non mechcanial back ground the mazda 2 piece 3mm apex seals have done the trick. Speaking with mick he was led up the garden path by a certain person stating that i was running a gilmer drive and had timing issues due to these pullys being on the engine  - which is not correct.

When i get some free time  i will post up some pics of the hurley 1 piece apex seals that i took out of the engine and am open for comments on their state after 20min of running time, mick hurley seems to think it was a clearencing issue perhaps
Title: 12at half bridge FB
Post by: arrouk on January 18, 2010, 11:04:04 AM
will be good to see some pics of them, I know after around 10hrs of use in mine the only difference from new was that the faces had polished where they had bedded into the housings. Did you check the size of your rotor housings before you re assembled for comparison to the seals?

Matt
Title: 12at half bridge FB
Post by: 12at on January 18, 2010, 11:13:35 AM
Quote from: arrouk;666096will be good to see some pics of them, I know after around 10hrs of use in mine the only difference from new was that the faces had polished where they had bedded into the housings. Did you check the size of your rotor housings before you re assembled for comparison to the seals?

Matt

The housings were brand new 12at ones
Title: 12at half bridge FB
Post by: arrouk on January 18, 2010, 11:24:24 AM
yeh but as i understand it even new housings vary in size a little, it would just have been nice to compare the measurement taken from the housing and the seal to compare.

How did your seals look, was there any damage or any thing to note?

Matt
Title: 12at half bridge FB
Post by: mx1311 on January 18, 2010, 11:25:51 AM
Quote from: 12at;666091Thanks for taking the time mick to have a chat about the engine that was build by Era..

Its clear that the engine that was built should of had more compression than it did,how ever since changing them in my non mechcanial back ground the mazda 2 piece 3mm apex seals have done the trick. Speaking with mick he was led up the garden path by a certain person stating that i was running a gilmer drive and had timing issues due to these pullys being on the engine  - which is not correct.

When i get some free time  i will post up some pics of the hurley 1 piece apex seals that i took out of the engine and am open for comments on their state after 20min of running time, mick hurley seems to think it was a clearencing issue perhaps

call era then, if you think the problem lays with his build. just like you called mick....................................
Title: 12at half bridge FB
Post by: mx1311 on January 18, 2010, 12:00:18 PM
a few things

1) TDC, could you find it correctly? i notice on ausrotary you where having problems and was asking about the chopstick method
2) was the motor correctly lubricated on the first startup/oil pressure procedures followed pre-startup
3) did any foreign bodies get inside the motor while you were poking around with your chopsticks?
4) premix, do you use it? was the correct amount put in the stank for the first start of the motor?

can we see teardown pics of said low compression motor or did you conveinently (sp) forget to take them?

who pulled apart with you?

is your sig regarding micks seals still on aus rotary, i have not been on for a couple of weeks?

best regards

colum
Title: 12at half bridge FB
Post by: mickh on January 18, 2010, 12:41:10 PM
damon the conversation we had gave alot more insight into your issues then has been posted on this thread. until you\'ve given everybody the full details of your project nobody can make any educated comments as to the reasons for any failure. Era is one of the most educated and experienced guys on the rotary scene, and i respect his opinion and knowledge. you have by your own admission during our conversation certain issues with the set up of your project, which as i pointed out to you could have caused a number of problems until the full facts are added to this thread nobody is going to get anywhere. this is the last time i will comment on the thread because i feel this will degenerate into a public lynching which is not justified. i will only advise you the best thing to do is to speak to Era in a civil manner and hopefully you can resolve your differences. The only reason i responded to this thread was because Hurley engineering were being unfairly singled out.
Title: 12at half bridge FB
Post by: mx1311 on January 18, 2010, 01:03:18 PM
hi mick,

seems like there is more to this than 12at is saying, glad you have posted. thankyou

its just a shame that (as in other threads) Era cannot get on here and voice his side of the story.

colum
Title: 12at half bridge FB
Post by: 12at on January 18, 2010, 01:13:20 PM
Quote from: mickh;666122damon the conversation we had gave alot more insight into your issues then has been posted on this thread. until you\'ve given everybody the full details of your project nobody can make any educated comments as to the reasons for any failure. Era is one of the most educated and experienced guys on the rotary scene, and i respect his opinion and knowledge. you have by your own admission during our conversation certain issues with the set up of your project, which as i pointed out to you could have caused a number of problems until the full facts are added to this thread nobody is going to get anywhere. this is the last time i will comment on the thread because i feel this will degenerate into a public lynching which is not justified. i will only advise you the best thing to do is to speak to Era in a civil manner and hopefully you can resolve your differences. The only reason i responded to this thread was because Hurley engineering were being unfairly singled out.

I\'ll think this has already turned into a groupies thread..
This thread can be deleted for all i care

Ill put the facts into perspective then and then people can make their own judgement

The engine was built using 1 piece hurley apex seals and was compression tested with 42psi front and rear
After contacting era to discuss issues i had the only thing he could advise was putting miles on it.. A little hard when a) it wont start on the key and b) dont really have the road to clutch start it on and hope that it starts off the key once driven and c) used new housings which would be harder than used housings as they need bedding in.

Pulled down the engine to find 2 stuck seals

Replace apex seals only with 2  piece mazda 3mm seals and reassembled engine.

Put engine back in the car and the thing started on the key with the same map and timing that was with the previous engine.

I spoke to you about the comment i made about the apex seals and as i said i am no way shape or form a mechanic - i work in I.T - i pulled down the engine and replaced the apex seals only and the compression went from 42psi to 105psi on the mazda compression checker - that leaves me to believe that it was the apex seals when nothing else had changed. That is me interpretation of whats happened if anyone else knows more than what ive done go for them.

The engine has never had gilmer pulleys on it and the adivce to check top dead centre was from a well know experience rotary guy in australia.

Weither or not it be the 1 piece seals or not - this is my opinion of what i saw with my own eyes when it was rebuilt
Title: 12at half bridge FB
Post by: arrouk on January 18, 2010, 01:39:50 PM
I am actually interested in the reason for problems, as I stated i had very similar issues with my 1pc Hurley seals but I only replaced the springs and rater than just allowing the car to idle for a while once started I drove it around the block.

It is common knowledge that higher compression comes with 2pc seals but agree that 42psi is very low.

I assume the compression was checked after the motor had been started or at least trying to start?
Was it only the seals you replaced or did you replace springs as well?
was there any noticeable damage to the seals?

matt
Title: 12at half bridge FB
Post by: 12at on January 22, 2010, 11:30:10 AM
If anyones interested in the car as a roller less engine and gear box let me know..

Car has 12 months MOT and Tax
Title: 12at half bridge FB
Post by: THE MAD KIWI on January 22, 2010, 03:44:25 PM
how muchy doddles
Title: 12at half bridge FB
Post by: 12at on January 22, 2010, 08:24:18 PM
looking for around £650 for the car with the mot and tax.
 
Also got a set of 17x7 Lenso RS5\'s 2 good tyres and 2 need replacing for £250
 
 
Will try and go through the pics of the apex seals i took and see.. The dome part of the apex seal looks either not symetrical or is wearing to my eyes and on one seems to be a dint or something in the face..
 
Also i replace the hurley seals and springs with mazda OEM items
Title: 12at half bridge FB
Post by: myatt1972 on January 22, 2010, 10:03:33 PM
Quote from: 12at;667046If anyones interested in the car as a roller less engine and gear box let me know..
 
Car has 12 months MOT and Tax

Any pics ? I may be interested.
Keith..
Title: 12at half bridge FB
Post by: Ian65 on January 22, 2010, 11:48:50 PM
Quote from: 12at;667046If anyones interested in the car as a roller less engine and gear box let me know..
 
Car has 12 months MOT and Tax
Is this B309...?
Title: 12at half bridge FB
Post by: 12at on January 23, 2010, 08:44:13 AM
Quote from: Ian65;667200Is this B309...?

 
Yes its B309..
 
The car will come less exhaust, gearbox, radiator, motor and fuel system.I am looking around the £700 mark..
 
If you would like the new 3 row radiator(£ 270 to get made new) , fuel system or 12a gilmer drive this can be organised also at additional cost..
 
Here are some pics of it.
 
(http://i1017.photobucket.com/albums/af296/bo0557/FB%2012aT/P2221003.jpg)
 
 
(http://i1017.photobucket.com/albums/af296/bo0557/FB%2012aT/P2221000.jpg)
(http://i1017.photobucket.com/albums/af296/bo0557/FB%2012aT/DSC_0808.jpg)
 
 
 
 
Here is a pic of the style of wheels i have for sale : £250
 
(http://www.alloywheels.com/uploads/images_products_large/293.jpg)
Title: 12at half bridge FB
Post by: David Nock (RIP) on January 23, 2010, 12:23:06 PM
And I\'m right that the chassis has only done 36,000 or so miles?
Looks good...
Title: 12at half bridge FB
Post by: 12at on January 23, 2010, 12:26:04 PM
Quote from: David Nock;667237And I\'m right that the chassis has only done 36,000 or so miles?
Looks good...

Yes this is correct
Title: 12at half bridge FB
Post by: syebba on January 23, 2010, 06:47:24 PM
u r correct inspector Nock:Laugh
It\'s all elementary really.
ta stu..
Title: 12at half bridge FB
Post by: 12at on January 23, 2010, 09:47:31 PM
To the potential buyer - An Engine Can Be Sourced A Good Runner For £100
Title: 12at half bridge FB
Post by: David Nock (RIP) on January 24, 2010, 11:53:44 AM
Quote from: syebba;667321u r correct inspector Nock:Laugh
It\'s all elementary really.
ta stu..
Says it at start of posts actually and didn\'t notice!....Pass the toke over (opium pipe to you youngsters).....Gone all dizzy now.....
Title: 12at half bridge FB
Post by: myatt1972 on January 24, 2010, 01:16:09 PM
Quote from: 12at;667375To the potential buyer - An Engine Can Be Sourced A Good Runner For £100

Very interested, drop me an e-mail please.
bridge101keith at hotmail.com
Cheers. keith..
Title: 12at half bridge FB
Post by: kiwi-mick on March 09, 2010, 09:18:25 PM
Has this car sold then??
Title: 12at half bridge FB
Post by: myatt1972 on March 09, 2010, 09:47:28 PM
He had a change of circumstances and decided to keep it for now.
I also have had a recent change of circumstances and dont have the room for another car.
Keith...
Title: 12at half bridge FB
Post by: mpk490p on March 10, 2010, 08:29:19 AM
Quote from: 12at;667216Yes its B309..
 
The car will come less exhaust, gearbox, radiator, motor and fuel system.I am looking around the £700 mark..
 
If you would like the new 3 row radiator(£ 270 to get made new) , fuel system or 12a gilmer drive this can be organised also at additional cost..
 
Here are some pics of it.
 
(http://i1017.photobucket.com/albums/af296/bo0557/FB%2012aT/P2221003.jpg)
 
 
(http://i1017.photobucket.com/albums/af296/bo0557/FB%2012aT/P2221000.jpg)
(http://i1017.photobucket.com/albums/af296/bo0557/FB%2012aT/DSC_0808.jpg)
 
 
 
 
Here is a pic of the style of wheels i have for sale : £250
 
(http://www.alloywheels.com/uploads/images_products_large/293.jpg)

is the glimmer up for sale?
what the fuel set up?
thanks
Mark
Title: 12at half bridge FB
Post by: 12at on March 10, 2010, 08:56:28 AM
Hey mark no nothing is for sale at the momment.

But if i decided i have no use for the gilmer ill let you know.

Fuel system consists of a Carter Black 9psi pump, Bosch 550hp hi pressure pump, Sard fuel reg and a under body surge tank.
Title: 12at half bridge FB
Post by: mpk490p on March 10, 2010, 01:14:45 PM
cool thanks would be interested in the glimmer ;)
Title: 12at half bridge FB
Post by: AndyGen3 on March 10, 2010, 10:46:37 PM
If you do decide to sell the car minus the engine box etc etc id be interested. .

andrew dot p dot dalton at gmail dot com

Cheers
Andy
Title: 12at half bridge FB
Post by: 12at on October 11, 2010, 11:49:21 AM
So i got this retuned and had issues with fuel delivery.. am thinking of ditchin the 2 550s and 2 1200s and going either 4 1000s or 4 1700s and going E85
 
Was happy with how its panning out it made 290 on 9psi limited 6000rpm - needs more time tuning and the water activated.. But for now its a hand full to 6000rpm and also may consider selling due to another project and also house purchase..
 
I also have the lensos for sale - i need them gone asap!"! Make me an offer