Mazda Rotary Club

General => General Technical => Anything Engine/Performance/Tuning related => Topic started by: Bob Monkhouse on December 20, 2009, 03:45:01 PM

Title: 12a with an elford turbo
Post by: Bob Monkhouse on December 20, 2009, 03:45:01 PM
does anybody know what sort of power figures this engine and turbo produced when first brought out?
Just wondering as we managed to salvage one of these engines with turbo out of a scrapped fb.
Also are these turbo kits quite rare?
WOuld this turbo work well if the 12a was pp? As thinking of using this in a project i have got planned in my head for the future.
Another question what sort of power output would this engine setup (12a pp turbo) have?
Cheers Grant Monkhouse
Title: 12a with an elford turbo
Post by: 12at on December 20, 2009, 06:12:42 PM
Personally I wouldn\'t touch an elford turbo.. The turbos are usless if you want to make power!! And no te t28 or similar which they use won\'t work on a pp..

If your going for a pp turbo you will want a t51r, to4z at min..
Title: 12a with an elford turbo
Post by: 12at on December 20, 2009, 06:15:53 PM
The elford turbo won\'t work if you want to make power. The turbo is very small and restrictive..

If your going pp turbo way you will need at min a to4z, t51r or bigger to make power..

I know a guy back in aus who has made 700+hp with a semi pp bridge gt4202 on low 20psi
Title: 12a with an elford turbo
Post by: 12at on December 20, 2009, 06:39:00 PM
elford turbo would be usless for a pp..
 
if you want to make power you would need at min a TO4Z, T51r or a GT4202
Title: 12a with an elford turbo
Post by: 12at on December 20, 2009, 07:16:39 PM
Elford Turbos are junk.. They would be lucky to make 200rwhp on a ported engine - they are small and restictive for a rotary..
 
For a PP turbo you would need at min. a TO4Z, T51R or GT4202 ..
 
Know a fella back home in Aus who made 700+rwhp in a rx3 with a semi pp bridge..
 
But deff a elford turbo will not be for you..
Title: 12a with an elford turbo
Post by: antnicuk on December 20, 2009, 07:51:22 PM
i have had a couple of elfords,  they claimed 160 bhp when new but they had little low down torque.

forget any kind of porting on the stock set up. The elfords use a 1 3/4 inch su (same as a metro)  and it only just flows enough for the stock ports.  Its a draw through system so difficult to move anything around,  you would be much better off with a Mazda 12a turbo which is import only, but fuel injected blow through system.

HTH
Title: 12a with an elford turbo
Post by: Bob Monkhouse on December 20, 2009, 09:27:44 PM
Quote from: antnicuk;660634i have had a couple of elfords, they claimed 160 bhp when new but they had little low down torque.
 
forget any kind of porting on the stock set up. The elfords use a 1 3/4 inch su (same as a metro) and it only just flows enough for the stock ports. Its a draw through system so difficult to move anything around, you would be much better off with a Mazda 12a turbo which is import only, but fuel injected blow through system
 
We wouldnt be using the standard carb as like you say it is too small. Possibly thinking of adding an intercooler onto the turbo as the kit didnt have one (havent had the engine out for a while so thinking of it from memory) as the carb is directly stuck on the end of the turbo??? with a homemade exhaust manifold would i be able to rotate the turbo to add piping to an I/C??
   I understand that i would have to have a blow through carb as if i didnt the pressure would push fuel out of places it is not meant too??
   Would a fuel injection set up be easier and cheaper than a carb setup?
Title: 12a with an elford turbo
Post by: mpk490p on December 21, 2009, 11:40:43 AM
there is a lot of stuff on RX7.com and ausrotory with blow thru set ups, the yanks like to us 45 DCOE\'s
Title: 12a with an elford turbo
Post by: Brett on December 21, 2009, 12:00:38 PM
Fuel injection would deffo be a better bet long term IMO.
Title: 12a with an elford turbo
Post by: shaunwil on December 21, 2009, 03:56:35 PM
I think alan\'s elford made 105bhp (can\'t remember wheel or fly) in a north v south dyno day a while ago.

If your having to rebuild a 13b swap would be more worthwhile because the N/A will make similar power !

Shaun
Title: 12a with an elford turbo
Post by: Bob Monkhouse on December 21, 2009, 07:57:06 PM
Quote from: shaunwil;660800I think alan\'s elford made 105bhp (can\'t remember wheel or fly) in a north v south dyno day a while ago.
 
If your having to rebuild a 13b swap would be more worthwhile because the N/A will make similar power !
 
Shaun
I know a 13b swap would be much easier for power figures etc but i am having a 13b pp fuel injected in the rx4 we are restoring, so it would be nice to have/try something different. Need the engine to be as short as possible aswell so it fits nicely into the car it is going to be used in.
  I know the 13b isnt big but its still bigger/longer than the the 12a?
  I have learnt that 12a pp lumps can achieve over 200 bhp easily?? (FWHP) So with a turbo bolted on there upwards of 300 possibly??? With fuel injection.
   Can an apexi ecu be used to map these if it has fuel injection?
Title: 12a with an elford turbo
Post by: Bob Monkhouse on December 21, 2009, 08:05:07 PM
Quote from: Brett;660760Fuel injection would deffo be a better bet long term IMO.

I agree but dont want be spending huge amounts on this project, saying that though the time spent setting up a carb and the money it would cost for the carb, fuel injection is cheaper over time.
wht size injectors would a 12a pp need, and how many?? 4x 850\'s, 4 or 2x1000\'s, or going up as silly as 1680\'s?? Would a fuel rail from a 13b work or are 12a\'s different?
Title: 12a with an elford turbo
Post by: 12at on December 21, 2009, 08:13:08 PM
I would suggest something like a big holset or gt series turbo or a t51r..
 
Run a S5 turbo inlet manifold with adapter and 2 1000cc and 2 1700cc injectors.. You will need at min a single 044 bosch pump and if you looking to make some mumbo 2 044s and a good fuel reg like a sard or aeromotive..
Title: 12a with an elford turbo
Post by: shaunwil on December 21, 2009, 09:25:16 PM
The fuel rails would be different. It all depends on what EFI throttlebody you would use. A good place to look is :http://www.tweakit.net/shop/product_info.php?products_id=117 for EFI stuff. You would use a stand alone ECU for the setup more like a haltech or linkecu.

I like the idea of a 12PP with a turbo. There are a few monster setups on Rx7club !

Shaun
Title: 12a with an elford turbo
Post by: Bob Monkhouse on December 22, 2009, 06:35:25 PM
I like the idea of a 12PP with a turbo. There are a few monster setups on Rx7club !
 
Shaun[/quote]
should be fun with this turbo, even though itsw not too big
Title: 12a with an elford turbo
Post by: m1tch on December 22, 2009, 07:55:06 PM
I have a set of DCOE 40s if you are interested :) and I will also have a turbo II fully rebuilt turbo at some point as well :D