So, as far as I can tell, the install I have put in the 1st gen SHOULD be cooling enough. But it doesn\'t seem to be able to hold the temps as low as I would expect...
the engine setup is as below, but with a big fat 16" fan hard up against the rad, and it definitely pulls air through from the front of it.
(http://www.archbish.com/Pics/engine.jpg)
the intercooler is as close to the rad as I can get it, and the T2 oil cooler is about 4" in front of that toward the front of the car.
I\'m thinking the following may help/be an issue:
1 - add an expansion tank to increase the volume of fluid by maybe 3 litres.
2 - would the timing possibly cause the engine to run hotter? It\'s still the base map from Microtech with 10% fuel taken out (runs a LOT better with that).
3 - move the intercooler up, and the oil cooler below it up against the rad to try and improve air flow
what\'s the general concensus on the above, and any other ideas I wouldn\'t have through of?
What temps are you getting mate?
Adam
Wouldn\'t it be best to have the fan sitting on the back of the radiator, pulling air though from the front, I also see that you are missing an undertray (I can see the floor lol) - you need one for proper cooling, remember that air flows from high pressure to low pressure, the high pressure you get at the front of the car, if the inside of the engine bay isn\'t low pressure then the air isn\'t going to want to flow to it, meaning that without an undertray the low pressure area turns into a medium pressure area, meaning that air will flow into it, just not as well as if it was a low pressure area.
You just have to be really careful when modifying the enginebay with regards to airflow, I think there is a thread in the 3rd gen section about having the undertray in and not, showing a big drop in temperature.
What bonnet are you running at the mo?
the fan is on the back of the rad - it wasn\'t mounted when the pic was taken... And it\'s a 1st gen, which doesn\'t have an undertray, but with a 13bt T04 engine. The water is creeping up toward the 90s, and the fan simply isn\'t holding the temp.
You say you\'ve fitted a 16inch fan bish which is more than big enough but is it shrouded? Which will cause the fan to pull air through the full rad area rather than just the unshrouded fan pulling through a percentage of the rad.
Bish what sensor are you using? where is it in the system? also you should have a undertray this will help things
Make sure you\'ve got no tiny leaks anywhere as this will lower the water pressure and so it\'ll heat up more. Double check that the fan is getting good power and that the blades are the right way round. Was speaking to Geoff at ReWorx and he was explaining to me that fan can be either way around to draw air through but one way is more efficent than the other.
But i\'m sure you\'ve checked all that anyway :D
Adam
Thank chaps. I wasn\'t sure whether a shroud would help with this or not, as when moving, air would be going through it - but if it\'ll help, then I\'ll definitely put one on! The sensor is tapped opposite the stock one - and the laptop plugged into the ECU says it\'s 90 deg. Is there an undertray for a 1st gen? It is definitely round the right way, and is leak free.
I\'m wondering if the volume of coolant is enough. An FC uses nearly 10 litres of coolant, but with the install I have, it\'s under 5 litres. That\'s probably an issue right there, right?
Im pretty sure we don\'t have 10 litres of coolent in out systems!
the service manual says 8.7 for the turbo (ok, not quite 10 litres... *grin*)
Surely without the bonnet the temps shouldn\'t be a problem at all. :p
Adam
there defenatly is a undertray for a gen 1 pal, ah the big cowling or not cowling debate, i dont run one as the fan it attached directly to the rad some say you get better airflow whilst driving without and others say you need one to maximise fan efficency i dont have any problems with mine although the only cooling upgrade is a double thick rad and electric fan, i take a temp reading from the rad outlet although i have just brought a sensor (95c on 90c off) to sit just before the thermostate which fully opens at 88c so my temps would be 90ish near the stock temp sensor (will still have the sensor near rad exit to aftermarket gauge and of course stock gauge)
Quote from: Archbish;642779the fan is on the back of the rad - it wasn\'t mounted when the pic was taken... And it\'s a 1st gen, which doesn\'t have an undertray, but with a 13bt T04 engine. The water is creeping up toward the 90s, and the fan simply isn\'t holding the temp.
The 1st gen did have an undertray in steel !!! I had mine powdercoated !
Shaun
Oh, right - what do the 1st gen undertrays look like? I\'ll be fabbing one then...
bish there are a couple being broken (http://www.mazdarotaryclub.com/forums/showthread.php?t=60033&highlight=breaking+gen+1) sure you could get one sorted not sure fabbing one would help as they have serveral slits and holes in
A long shot but check plugs bish. I once bought a 1st gen that was fine when I went for a test drive but boiled within a few miles when I was driving home. The dealer had serviced it and put some 2 prong Champions in it. What a twonk....it took me 2 days, rad out flushing it, allsorts before I took the plugs out and realised they weren\'t right. Not saying yours are wrong but check the type/grade for the 13B.
I think the timing was out with those Champions and the engine didn\'t like it.
bish take some pictures of the front of the car and in the mouth at the front.
An expansion tank wont increase the water in the system. The system only holds whats held within the pressure cap, everything outside of the pressure cap is not heated or cooled.
The fan must have a proper shroud, if not, the fan is only pulling air though 60% of the radiator, with a full shroud, it pulls through air the whole thing.
Ducting is very important, you must make sure that any air going in the front can only go through the i/c and rad. So you must duct and block any holes in the front before the i/c and make sure the air can only go through the rad once its been through the i/c so make sure there are no gaps around the edges as takes the easiest option to get out which isnt going through a rad. Do you have any ducting at the sideand in front of the i/c ?
The undertray wont help your stationary temps, its only the fan that controls that, but the undertray definitely will help when you are on the move.
You could also try putting a lower opening stat in which is well worth it if you are going to use it for track days, it just gives your heating system a 5 or 6 degrees head start but doesnt cure an inefficient system.
Your system should hold the same water as an FC assuming you are running a heater matrix, the engine is the same, the rad looks quite thick, have you turned the heating in the car on and make sure you have bled the system.
You should aim to have your fan come on at about 92 and switch off at about 86, and as long as your temps dont go much over a hundred when abusing the car you should be ok. The fan should be able to hold temps down if its working properly.
Timing and fueling can effect temps but less so at idle.
thanks for the replies. I\'ve not put the heating into the car, hence the reduced volume. I\'ve included an undertray now, but not the shroud - yet. it\'s pretty tightly sealed around the IC and the Rad, so I dont think it needs any further work on that...
Will keep you up to date on progress - thanks for the advice everyone!
the sealing you need is from the front of the i/c cooler to the front of the mouth in the bumper, otherwise air entering the front bumper will just go to the sides and and around both. Although as said, this wont help at idle
I have an unshrowded 16" 3000 CFM fan on a Big rad (60mm core) and it holds idle temps in the high 80\'s. I did find that if the fuelling or timing was out it did affect temps.
High Coolant temps = Rich
High Exhaust temps = Lean
So even though you\'ve pulled some fuel, if it\'s running very rich at idle, or the timing is making it lumpy, then it could run hotter.
Does it stabilize or keep climbing when it\'s static on tickover ?
I\'ve not had it running on tick over for long enough to really know yet... What is a high exaust temp these days?
btw, Prof, I forgot to reply to your post about popping round on Saturday - sorry dude!! I\'ll be buying a timing light anyhow, but if you wanna pop round, and \'review\' what has been done, I\'ll have a cold beverage awaiting!! :D
Mid to low 700\'s is on the rich side, above that to low 800\'s is probably the norm, then getting higher as you go towards lean (that\'s degree celcius)
Working the early rota this week, what time do you get back - love to see the handy work upclose :Thumbs-up
maybe later today then - am off work, so will be here all day. mail me on archbish at gmail dot com for addy and mob details...
Can we all come over then? :p
Adam
of course!! (going to need to buy another beer at this rate... :P ) Drop me a mail at the same addy if you do wanna pop past - only in Farnborough!!
Ahh thanks mate. Was only kidding tho, but would love to come over at some point and see all your hard work. :D
Adam
here\'s the rad as is. Shrouding will help, but I don\'t think it\'ll make a massive difference given the area covered... Opinions (I\'m happy to be proven wrong by experience...)
(http://www.archbish.com/pics/rad1.jpg)
(http://www.archbish.com/pics/rad2.jpg)
you have to remember that the centre 8 inches of the fan doesnt move any air when its fitted like that. Also, although its a large diameter fan, it doesnt look like a very big CFM one? any ideas what it flows?
It would be interesting to see what happens if you just bolted the stock 13b one in there, i tried several BIG electric fans and the stock viscous fan was always the best.
Looks like a nice instal.
does the temp keep creeping up with the fan running?
to be fair, your rad and fan look pretty much the same as mine, and I have mine mounted that way too.
I\'ve seen the car ! :cool:driving
Tis indeed a nice bit of work in the engine bay :)
The rad fan looks to be the same exact model I have - it\'s a 16" 3000 CFM FAN, and is a puller (although you can reverse the electical contacts and the blades to run it on the front side of the rad/intercooler as a pusher).
Given my experiences with the fan on idle, it should hold the temperatures down - in Bish\'s case, because the rad is smaller than mine, his fan covers an even greater percentage of the surface area - so I don\'t think airflow is the issue.
The idle revs are high - at 1500 RPM, and that will generate quite a bit more heat in the engine to get rid of, and as the car isn\'t moving on idle, the job of cooling will fall on the fan. I suspect the issues could mostly be resolved by dropping the idle rate - which will be down to the air flow into the engine when the throttles are at rest - you must still have a \'hole\' somewhere bish !
Found these last night:
http://www.microtech-efi.com/downloads/38.pdf
and
http://www.microtech-efi.com/downloads/37.pdf
not sure if they are of any use.
One last thing - the broken igniter modules - can you post a pic of one ?
Thanks dude - it\'s not bad for a first attempt... Also, thanks for the pointers - I\'ll probably whip off the upper intake at the weekend, and see if there is something leaking air in...
It\'s MOT\'d now as well (inspite of the volume), so thats nice!! Also got a Jetex silencer en-route which should arrive today which will help get the noise down (although I\'m not sure by how much...
re: ignitor module - how do you mean? You want a circuit diagram of it?
Quote from: Archbish;643469re: ignitor module - how do you mean? You want a circuit diagram of it?
That would be awesome if you have it, but a picture of the top of the board just showing the components will be enough - I can guess what goes where pretty much. Just wanted to get some idea on what type of device they are using to switch the coils, and what if any protection circuitry.
I don\'t think it would be beyond the realms to knock up some pcb\'s with a bomb proof circuit that would work with either aftermarket or stock coils to give a much stronger spark. Most stock systems are built to a tight budget and don\'t deliver any more than they need to, so for anyone going for more power, they tend to fall short.
I\'m looking into replacing the igniters on the FC with something that uses IGBT\'s and maybe a PIC processor to give multi spark at lower RPM, and not be the size of a small shed (like the MSD boxes). Fuji atcually make a single 3 pin device that looks like a transistor that has full current/voltage limiting built in and is effectively an igniter module in itself, but I would go for something built from parts to make it repairable/upgradeable.
OKey chokey - I\'ll strip the dodgy one down and scan it in on the photocopier at work...
Quote from: Archbish;643485OKey chokey - I\'ll strip the dodgy one down and scan it in on the photocopier at work...
:Thumbs-up:cheers
OK, here\'s the top and bottom pic of the blown one (second time blown - the woldered in jump wire wasn\'t me). Excuse the size of the pics, but I guess it\'ll make it easier to figure out.
(http://www.archbish.com/Pics/circuit1.jpg)
(http://www.archbish.com/Pics/circuit2.jpg)
and here\'s a schematic of what I think it is and how it works for each ignitor. I\'m unsure about the diode, and the transistor layout is based on what I\'ve read on the web about transistors...
(http://www.archbish.com/Pics/circuit3.jpg)
Swap base and collector around and reverse the diode and that\'s the circuit ! (and swap ecu and coil labels)
It\'s interesting that both the collector leads to the coils got smoked, which means there\'s no current limiting in place and the ignition pulse was too long (the current will just keep ramping up to whatever the coils dc resistance allows - for 0.3 ohm coil that\'s 14/0.3 = 46.6 Amps!!)
The transistors or IGBT devices - whichever they are, act like switches, the positive signal from the ECU switches them on, and the current is effectively shorted to ground through the tranny. Most of these modern coils are very low resistance - like 0.3 ohms (the stock FC ones are between 0.3-1.0 ohm, which will easily draw several amps if not tens of amps through that small track and fry it, eventually with a mod like the thick wire, it will most likely take out the transistor too, which is likely why the 2 components nearest the transistor with all the black crap around it got smoked and died too.
The circuit has some protection for the ECU, but not much for the device iteself, or the coils (other than the fuse in the engine bay).
Thanks for the scans Bish - I can certainly make up some boards that will be compatible and offer better protection if not performance. :cheers
so like this then? I think I\'ve done what you said in the first sentence...
(http://www.archbish.com/Pics/circuit4.jpg)
Excellent - when can I expect my replacement ignitors then?? *grin*
Wow that microtech looks quite basic compared to the e-manage ultimate board lol what are you paying all the extra money for? lol
Quote from: m1tch;643828Wow that microtech looks quite basic compared to the e-manage ultimate board lol what are you paying all the extra money for? lol
Mitch - that\'s only the igniter module for the ignition - not the whole Microtech - :Giggle
Quote from: Prof;643832Mitch - that\'s only the igniter module for the ignition - not the whole Microtech - :Giggle
Just checking you were paying attention :rollin
well, the undertray, and the bits reducing any airholes seem to be working well. Went for a drive today, and in traffic and on the motorway, the water temps didn\'t go over 82 degrees. Going to get an airtemp gauge to keep an eye on things, but she is running sweetly...
Prof - you going to japshow? If you are, (a) when you going up, and (b) you know that timing gun of yours.... *grin*
i have a timing gun mate if you want to swing by Sat
Quote from: Archbish;644358well, the undertray, and the bits reducing any airholes seem to be working well. Went for a drive today, and in traffic and on the motorway, the water temps didn\'t go over 82 degrees. Going to get an airtemp gauge to keep an eye on things, but she is running sweetly...
Prof - you going to japshow? If you are, (a) when you going up, and (b) you know that timing gun of yours.... *grin*
I am, but we are only going to the pod for the Saturday probably. Probably go up sometime on Friday to Bedford and stay at the mother in laws, but I can swing by with the timing gun any evening or Friday morning - or even bring it with me.
Good to hear you are getting the cooling issues sorted by the sound of it. :)
thanks chaps. I moved the cas a touch, and it\'s seems to be a lot more agressive under acceleration... it would be cool to at least see if the timing is good at idle, if nothing else.
so my ebay spec timing gun arrived yesterday, and had a check last night. It looks like the timing is pretty spot on from the quick glance, but a proper tune will get it sorted. Thanks for the offers chaps!
Isn\'t the timing different on a rotary being that there are 2 timing marks? What advance/retard setting did you use on the timing gun? When I used Profs it was at 15 degrees advanced lol
15 degrees advance on idle??? Blimey - the Microtech instructions are to lock the timing and set it to 5 degrees after tdc (just checked in one of the links Prof has put above)
Quote from: Archbish;64504115 degrees advance on idle??? Blimey - the Microtech instructions are to lock the timing and set it to 5 degrees after tdc (just checked in one of the links Prof has put above)
Yeah I kinda paniced when I saw what the gun was set to lol just turned the knob back and it was all good lol
Yep - the first mark on the pulley is 5 degrees btdc, and the trailing is at 20 (15 split). You set it with the gun (zero\'d) so that the first mark is on the \'pin\' at idle with no load on the engine (air con, lights, etc off - on a stock ecu the initial set / test jumper is grounded to kill the BAC valve signal) when you have the light running off the front plugs. Then with the light on the front rotor trailing coil, the \'pin\' should align with the 2nd mark on the pulley - to the left of the first mark. (By default this happens with a stock ecu if the primary is on, and the coil wiring is correct ;))
If I remember correctly they are 2 different colours, but due to the age of our engines they are probably both gray/black and faded hehe