Decided in the end to upgrage to the Bosch 044 and use this in tank.
First of all would like to say thank you to Jon at AtomicRex for supplying the parts and being on the end of the phone to discuss the setup and possibilities :)
This is the original fuel pump still on the bracket and the 044 next to it for comparison. Have had the sock and adaptor already fitted in the photo.
(http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x125/smb2200/New%20Fuel%20Pump/DSC02950.jpg)
Now the stock fuel pump is held in position with a bottom bracket and the outlet is a push fit with an O ring into the metal pipe that you see here
(http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x125/smb2200/New%20Fuel%20Pump/DSC02943.jpg)
The pipe has to be cut in order to fit the 044 due to the size and then a piece of in tank hose can be used. This has to be able to cope with being immersed in fuel. Also got this from Atomic Rex :)
You want to cut the pipe about 2-3 inches from the top of the bracket (enough to get a good fit with a fuel pipe)
Now the Bosch 044 come with a fitted check valve on the top. This makes things a little bit awkward to fit. You have to put on a banjo fitting and from there you connect the fuel pipe to the bracket plate pipe you\'ve just cut.
Not pretty but looks like this
(http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x125/smb2200/New%20Fuel%20Pump/DSC03153.jpg)
You can remove the check valve and fit an AN adaptor and feed straight up to the pipe but this means that fuel pressure can flow back through the pump which is not advisable.
There is also a fitting in Australia and the US called a Speedflow link here
http://www.furiousperformance.com.au/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=421
or
http://www.jayracing.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=227
and i may upgrade to this someday but when i spoke to Jays Racing the shipping alone was 38 dollars!!!
Anyway, moving on...
The standard wiring on the pump is 16 gauge, and this is unlikely to be able to cope with the new pump being as i\'ll be running 10 gauge from the battery to a new relay to feed it.
You can "unpin" the blue plug in the photo below, so i did this and got 2 new pins from Maplin and connected 12 gauge cable up. The photo shows the original cables...
(http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x125/smb2200/New%20Fuel%20Pump/DSC03152.jpg)
Next, i wanted to try and mount the pump as low in the tank as possible. Measuring from the top of the tank (where the bracket sits) the bottom of the tanks in built swirl pot, if you can call it that, is pretty much bang on 300mm.
I therefore decided to mount the pump so the bottom of the sock was at 290mm from the bracket. This means there is some space underneath for it to "suck" but low enough for me to be happy with. Photo shows the top of the tank to the swirl tank.
(http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x125/smb2200/New%20Fuel%20Pump/DSC02945.jpg)
(http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x125/smb2200/New%20Fuel%20Pump/DSC03153-1.jpg)
I wanted to test the pump just to make sure it worked basically so hooked up the standard wiring to it and switched the ignition on, still using the 20amp fuse. Fuel pump fired into life and primed successfully. I shorted out the F/P and GND in the diagnosics to keep the pump running wo i coul dmeasure the amperage through the circuit.
at 13.4v i was seeing 15amps through the standard wiring and the standard earth cable within the loom was getting "warm". This clearlyshows the standard loom was not up to the job.
With the fuel pump mounted and working i moved on to feeding new cables to it. For this i used 10 gauge. This is fed from the battery to the boot and connects to a relay. The original cables that fed the pump are cut and used to feed the switching relay so that it acts like stock i.e. fuel pump primes throgh the timing circuit.
At the fuel pump connector end i cut the red/white wire and ran a new 10 gauge wire from the relay and soldered this to the original wire (which is approx 12 gauge anyway and wouldn\'t make any difference over the short length)
The earth wire was cut at the connector and conencted to the bodywork via another 10 gauge cable.
Here is the circuit diagram i followed.
(http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x125/smb2200/New%20Fuel%20Pump/Fuelpumprewire-1.jpg)
If you wanted to bypass the stock relays and still have the pump switched on ignition, you could sourc a 12v feed from something say like the cigarette lighter. However, remember that this would not be timed therefore priming all the time on 2 ignition switch, just a thought. i.e. as below
(http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x125/smb2200/New%20Fuel%20Pump/fuelpumprewire.jpg)
I mounted my relay within the tool compartment in the boot for easy access should i need to replace it. I went for the Bosch 40amp so there is less likely chance of overheating it.
I have shorted out the speed relay using 2 spade connectors and some 10 gauge cable within the engine bay so that the "new" relay sees the full voltage and is bypassing the resistor. One less thing to go wrong as below...
(http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x125/smb2200/New%20Fuel%20Pump/220speed20relay.jpg)
With the new wiring in place and everything setup i measured the current again through the pump and at idle was seeing 8.8A at 13.6V. This was with the pump and the fuel cold tho so i would expect this to rise when warm. I am sure the lower current is the result of the higher gauge wiring and ability to flow more current.
Put everything back together and went to get some fuel as the fuel light was on. However this did prove that the Bosch 044 can flow even at about empty so thats always good to know.
Filled up and went for a drive, and everything seems to be good. Fuel pressure is set to 40psi at the moment at idle (Vac line removed) and the car is now ready to me mapped :)
Hope this helps someone or just a good read for others :D
Again thanks to Jon at AtomicRex who had to put up with me moaning
initially that i didn;t think it would work, but after he setup a test rig at his own place/expense this gave me confidence :D
Cheers
Scott
Excellent write up Scott
Well done for persevering with the set up :)
All worth it Jon and nowhere near as noisy as i thought it was gonna be, can\'t even here it inside the car :D
Nice write up, cheers mate
Nice write up man. Will come in use for lots of owners! This should be moved into technical stickies section!
Hi Scott, I\'m just in the process of installing a Bosch pump in-tank and i\'m also doing the rewire. I needed to ask you a couple of things and i\'ve sent you an email to see if you can help me out...
Cheers
If Scott isnt able to help...you can always email or call me :)
Always happy to help :)
I might get rid of my Walbro and get one of these as ive been told the walbro is a POS. Its 30% smaller that the standard pump!!! nice write up
great write up :)
Excellent write up Scott.. I have fitted Bosch pump on my car , and have rewired everything similar to yours.
The bit I missed is the wire inside that tank, from the blue connector to the pump. I am guessing this is necessary to get the full current to the pump.
Did you have to get wire with any particular insulation, as I am wondering if petrol will deteriorate the rubber over time? If everyone just uses a wire with normal insulation good for taking 30amp, and had no problems, then thats what I will do.
Thanks for the comments mate :)
I\'ve since changed the connectors and got a wiring kit from Atomicrex but you\'ll have to either drill the top plate or buy a new one from Jon at Atomicrex. This comes with the necessary cables, connectors and hermetically sealed grommet in which to use.
Just for interest i am also going to be changing the fuel pick up sock to something else as i had severe fuel starvation the other day on left handers as i only had a quarter tank (due to no swirl pot obv) If you keep the tank above a quarter for everyday use it\'s fine.
Funny enough I also had starvation issues which confused me for a long time when it used to cut out. After realising this I had to measure the bottom of the tank properly, and take my time and position it low as possible but still with enough gap to suck the fuel.
I would also say keep at least half a tank if you are going to drive it hard. Worked for me.
I am also considering putting a Walbro instead as I am running less then 400bhp. It wont need the amount of current needed by Bocsh. I would still run the direct circuit through it (close to 13.6V) which will ensure maximum flow :)
I\'m also running less than 400bhp on standard twins, but with 4 x 850 injectors at 43psi. No point changing for the Walbro IMO as you\'ll be no better off, the fuel circuit will still flow the same as the Bosch and you have the wiring to support it so it wont be an issue. If you are running Stock fuel pressure\'s or just above the pump is nowhere near working it\'s limit anyway so it\'s not gonna be at maximum power usage :)
Cool .. i guess we are at the same level... :)
Ok.. the trouble is somehow not enough current is going to my Bosch. I have changed my wires and relays so many times with so many combinations. At one point it worked perfectly, and the car seriously flew.. ok.. well fastest i driven a car.. where the front wheels seem to lift :)
So its getting kind of hard to make the pump work right, cause it needs the current, where as any other pump which doesn\'t need much current will work fine on the same curcuit. But I probably also need to sit and fiddle some more with volt and ammeters to see if there is some weak spot.
So might try rewiring from blue connector to pump.. which maybe the causing the issue, as I never changed it :( (But may not solve the problem as the connectors may also limit the current)
I am not too keen on changing the plate as well.. so if I can\'t get Bosch to work properly.. my backup plan will be the Walbro, wont be a better pump then Bosch.. but hopefully so long at it works ;)
Interesting....
Have you wired it how i have above? If all you\'re doing is switching a relay from the factory wiring then as you prob know you\'ll be getting direct current from you\'re newly installed 10 gauge cable to the pump.
The voltage drop over 10 feet or so of cable (assume your battery is in the engine compartment still) will be next to nothing in the 10 gauge, which is why it\'s used and could actually carry up to 100A over 10 feet (in open air) so wouldn\'t worry about that. You could actually use 14 gauge cable if you\'re battery was in the boot and this would be fine in theory and is the size of the cable connected in the original blue clip.
I had the original cables connected from the plate to the pump for about 8 months, ran 12 times down Santa Pod and has always been fine, and i only have a 20A fuse in now, so it\'s obv never taken any more than 20A.
Did notice the other day however how loud the pump was after driving around for about 3 hours on throttle in the 28 degrees it was outside lol..... Fuel was pretty warm so the pump must have been....
Ok cool.. thanks for helping me figure this out. So you are certain that the section wire from the blue connector to the fuel pump is not the weak spot.
Ok my setup is battery in the boot, so its only couple of feet to the pump, using 30amp relay. I have used quite thick wire i would say about 2.5mm diameter. You are right 14gauge should be sufficient.. Info on wires:
http://www.rbeelectronics.com/wtable.htm
I was looking through Maplin to find a suitable wire, i found this:
http://www.maplin.co.uk/Module.aspx?ModuleNo=6200&OrderCode=XR59P
What do you think? Or do you know a better one?
Well if it was the weak spot then mine wouldn\'t have worked either but then i have 10 gauge multistrand (6mm) feeding everything except that connector to the pump....
Have you cut the earth cable and put a larger cable to this aswell? as per the first picture ?
At least it\'s easy for you to change cables if you need to as the battery is in the boot :)
What are the symptoms you are experiencing ?
With the cable, most cable insulation made of synthetic compounds will be resistant to fuel, it\'s the mineral/oil based ones that wont be, therefore you should be fine with regular PVC or XLPE sheathed cable
sweat write up
Good description here, quick question.
On the wiring for the second diagram, bypassing the stock relays, if this was extended to 3 fuel pumps (in tank + 2 in line) could I:
Run 3 relays from the 1 switch (what sort of current does the switch side of the relay draw?)
Have 3 switches going to 3 relays?
Any other sensible options? :)
Thanks,
James
1 feed to 3 relays is fine - auto relays only draw very small amounts of current :)
Does running multiple pumps have any extra safety benefit.
E.g, im going to run in tank to a swirl pot with two 044 coming out of that, if the in tank one failed, I wouldnt lean out straight away because of the swirl pot?
Could there be some room for failure if a 044 failed for whatever reason?
If there is benefit here would a single switch running 3 relays be a single point of failure? So, running a single switch to 3 relays would work but would it better to go via 3 seperate circuits? I dont mind the extra effort involved if there is any benefit.
Just curious on this one!
Thanks,
James
hi guys can anybody help? my current set up is 2x 850cc primary/ 2x1680cc secondary, with std pump feeding a swirl pot underneath the car then a bosch 044 feeding the injectors! ive been told my new set up will need 2x 1680 primary / & 2x1680 secondarys with two bosch 044`s in a bracket fitted in tank, where can i get this bracket????? please help............cheers mick 07894 707535
I assume your not using a PFC
Phil
Nice job and write up.
I\'ll add for people who care to listen, DO NOT USE A 044 IN TANK PUMP! They are noisy, have VERY BAD fuel pick up (even when mounted as low as possible), and they flow less than a SARD 280lt pump.
I had one in for a day before ripping it out
The by far better combination is exactly the same as above except running a SARD 280lt (DENSO pump), these can be run to a far lower fuel lever as the rotor assembly is right at the BASE of the fuel pump body armature. On the 044 it\'s much higher up (past the nut on the end then a empty space in the body!).
If you want a killer set up, look at my build thread on my car, I run a single SARD 280LT along with a Keene Bell BOOSTA PUMP (voltage, current modifier) this has been run to well over 750bhp worth of fuel flow!) also you will need to do a full proper rewire of the voltage supply as show here.
Hope this helps people out.
Oh and the fule pump I have now is quite as stock!, my fuel temperature even on a base setting of 53psi pressure and running 25psi boost (80+psi fuel pressure at full load) after a 1 hr drive with only 20lt of fuel in the tank never goes above 15deg C over ambient. An 044 set up will BOIL the fuel in your tank by comparison!
I forgot to add to finish of this conversion you should FOAM FILL your fuel tank! I use Yellow ATL fuel foam and this will let you run it at the track or on road with the fuel light on, without any pick problems at all.
:3gears-rh
:Typing
Bringing this back from the dead.
As i got thesame 044 fuel pump kit from Atomic, I just wanted to know some details.
The first picture shows the Fuel pump with one way valve on top, right?
From a closer look, I would say that, on top of the valve, there is a (end) cap closing of the top.
Do I get this right?
Mine looks like this, with a nut on top instead of an end cap.
As my fuel system sound hold any pressure after the pump has primed (or virtually when it stops running) I\'m guessing this should be the issue.
(http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t10/NA-Sport/RX7/20120326_212258.jpg)
(http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t10/NA-Sport/RX7/20120326_212229.jpg)
(http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t10/NA-Sport/RX7/20120326_212217.jpg)
Any help would be greatly appreciated
Neal
The top of yours looks closed off though? Are you saying this is open? If it\'s open you wouldn\'t get pressure at all as the fuel will just be flowing out through the pump and out the top?? Yes it should have a cap nut on the end of that.....
Thought so, now it\'s an open head. need to get that changed..
i was seeing some pressure in the system, but as soon as I turn the ignition off it fell away.
Thanks for the quick reply!!
Why change the originel pump ?
The original pump is good for 600 + and it picks up good from the bottom of the tank why change a winning team ?
It gives more than enough pressure and you dont have to make any changes to the fuel system at all.
Also the original pump is very relieable so why do the extra efford and spent the extra money for something that is good.
Cheers Marcel
So you have 600+ or have seen this nice round number achieved? Here are the flow rates for a standard pump that I found on the net.
FD Pump @ 12V
PSI GPH LPH
40 52 197
45 50 188
50 47 178
55 45 171
60 43 161
65 40 151
70 35 132
75 30 115
With simple mathematics you can work out if it will come close to being able to flow enough fuel.
Why would you keep a 20 year old pump in your car if modify it? So if buying a new pump why not get a higher flow one rather than pay for a new stock one?
Also a lot of cars that I see that quote such high figures are no where near the quoted power, unless there talking about my little pony horse power....
Quote from: mexx;820689Why change the originel pump ?
The original pump is good for 600 + and it picks up good from the bottom of the tank why change a winning team ?
It gives more than enough pressure and you dont have to make any changes to the fuel system at all.
Also the original pump is very relieable so why do the extra efford and spent the extra money for something that is good.
Cheers Marcel
Isn\'t it better to use it as an inline pump with to stock or uprated intank pump?
Btw, where can you get an fuelcooler? As it warms the fuel up quit a bit.
Hi Kris,
I just ran a stock pump from 20 years old and it ran very well.
Bud you will go on E85 is it ?
I am not sure about that because i have no experience with that.
Have you contacted Carl yet ?
Marcel.
Quote from: JayDee;820914So you have 600+ or have seen this nice round number achieved? Here are the flow rates for a standard pump that I found on the net.
FD Pump @ 12V
PSI GPH LPH
40 52 197
45 50 188
50 47 178
55 45 171
60 43 161
65 40 151
70 35 132
75 30 115
With simple mathematics you can work out if it will come close to being able to flow enough fuel.
Why would you keep a 20 year old pump in your car if modify it? So if buying a new pump why not get a higher flow one rather than pay for a new stock one?
Also a lot of cars that I see that quote such high figures are no where near the quoted power, unless there talking about my little pony horse power....
Nice countwork.
Are you a stockholder for bosch 044 ? (lol).
Ask Carl from Hayward rotary he will verify this.
not yet, first finish my rebuild ;-)
How are you gonna go with ports ?
And what size of injectors do you have ?
Marcel
Stock holder for Bosch?? I do not see anywhere where I mention Bosch??
So you are quoting information that you have no idea if possible.
See how far you get on e85 with a stock pump, I dare say you will run out of pump just at high rev\'s in vacuum from what I\'ve seen in the past and that\'s not due to the pump....
I have no need of verification.
Quote from: mexx;821005Nice countwork.
Are you a stockholder for bosch 044 ? (lol).
Ask Carl from Hayward rotary he will verify this.
Quote from: mexx;821005Nice countwork.
Are you a stockholder for bosch 044 ? (lol).
Ask Carl from Hayward rotary he will verify this.
looks like you should do some research
i suggest you ask carl who jaydee is and he will verify lol:Laugh:Laugh
Quote from: 787b;821031looks like you should do some research
i suggest you ask carl who jaydee is and he will verify lol:Laugh:Laugh
Mate, if I am not mistaken, Jaydee is the guy who mapped and tuned that 8.81 second quater mile fd isn\'t?
Really helpful thread, thanks.
Could i confirm, with the earth wire at the connector, in your diagram it looks as if you have spliced to the original earth, but you mention, cut and new earth run to chassis. Do i need to splice a new earth or can i just run to chassis from the connector end?
Also, does the original relay need to put in place or simply bridge out the two terminals?
Thanks
Hi mate,
Yes just cut the wire at the connector and then connect a thicker gauge cable to this and run it to the body as a new earth. Problem with the existing is the 16 gauge cable is too long and too thin to cope with the 044 and will heat up due to the amperage. Mines been running over 3 years no problems like this.
Yes keep the original fuel pump relay in. This ensure it acts like stock setup i.e. priming for 5 seconds and not running when engine off. All thats happening is instead of having the fuel pump as a load on it, it has your new relay to feed your 044. It keeps things simple rather than having a new manual switch or connecting into other circuits.... Just connect a jumper wire as shown to disable the speed relay circuit. This ensures your new relay always sees the full 12V switching circuit.
Hope this helps :)
Quote from: SmbFD3S;839749Hi mate,
Yes just cut the wire at the connector and then connect a thicker gauge cable to this and run it to the body as a new earth. Problem with the existing is the 16 gauge cable is too long and too thin to cope with the 044 and will heat up due to the amperage. Mines been running over 3 years no problems like this.
Yes keep the original fuel pump relay in. This ensure it acts like stock setup i.e. priming for 5 seconds and not running when engine off. All thats happening is instead of having the fuel pump as a load on it, it has your new relay to feed your 044. It keeps things simple rather than having a new manual switch or connecting into other circuits.... Just connect a jumper wire as shown to disable the speed relay circuit. This ensures your new relay always sees the full 12V switching circuit.
Hope this helps :)
Great help, apart from the questions above, really easy to follow. Bought a one way valve from ebay on recommendation too.
Thanks again.
P.s How do you get the standard relay back in if you have bridged the those connectors with spades?