Hi everyone,
My RX 8 engine failed, so i decided to pull it apart to see whats gone wrong.
Well the bearings are knackered the rotor housing look shot!!! The apex seal\'s are heavily worn!!. One of the rotor housings looks like it has a crack in it by one of the plug holes.
Just looking for opinions on the failure and the causes and what i can do to prevent it.
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What year car was the engine out of? apparently the early ones only had 2 oil injectors rather than the 3 the newer ones had.
What oil were you using?
How long did you let it warm up for before driving?
What is the mileage? and how often was oil changed and what oil used?
Regards
Carl
Hi guys
The car (2004 model) did approx 58k always serviced on time and i checked my oil regulaly the most i ever need was 3/4litre to bring back up to max. I used Fuchs XTR 5w-30 for servicing and top up. The only real problem the car has had is a missfire at 45k approx and it ended up needing coils plugs and leads. It never overheated or had any other problems.
Thanks
I don\'t know if it applys to you as your engine looks like its had some oil starvation going on but recently i did an engine rebuild on an FD that had stuck side seals on the front rotor, on examination we found it had similar front Stationary gear bearing damage to yours, it was quite obvious before the rebuild had started the belts had been over tightened some time in its life as the bearings had gone in the Alternator too and we suspect the extra load had not helped. Was odd though that just the front Bearing had gone.
did you ever use a oil additive in with the fuel
Sorry to hear about your engine failure, however, I posted many months ago and some here wanted to ignore or not believe what I said..
This is the same Issues to RENESIS I that has occurred ALL over the world, Australia, USA, Japan...and yes the UK.
Apex Seal Wear is lack of oil metering or should I say NO oil metering, I don\'t know why Mazda stuffed up on this one, every other rotary in the past 20 years has had a middle oil injector/dribbler.
ALL Series one RX-8\'s MY 04-08 do not have the middle injector.
Stationery Gear Bearing Wear, goes to prove that either a 5W30 is not thick enough in viscosity...or the bearing can\'t handle the higher RPM\'s, I am certain it is the oil.
As the stationery gear bearings are the same ones used 20 years ago in the 1985 FC RX-7, in fact many of the internal bearings and parts (Oil Pump) are the same as the FC on the RX-8.
There is also the theory that with the Apex Seal wear over time a miss alignment occurs with eccentric shaft and or it\'s bearings... sorry I don\'t believe an overtightened alternator belt will cause this isssue....although they did changed the belts on 09 ~Series II RX-8, but I think this was because of the revised Water Pump Pulleys and E Shaft Pulleys.
Spark Plug hole cracking is also occurring in the US, thought to be Heat related, would not thought an issue in the UK.
So I believe you need to Pre-Mix as it is the ONLY way you can get lube to the middle of the seal, As far as engine oil a 15W40 or even a 20W50 is a better option.
Hi Bob,
I notice you are/were doing up a 12A RX-3 (S124A), I grew up with these cars as a Mazda Parts manager in Australia, if you are wanting any advice, re Spare Parts in Australia, or Genuine Part Numbers, I am happy to help you.
I also have an RX-3 Factory Parts manual, and lots of Part numbers still in my head.
As you probably know, almost all of the original "new" Mazda Factory parts are no longer available or made.
Mazda Australia had a huge warehouse full of new dead stock which was Auction Off in large lots about 8 years ago, there is a guy here who still sells some of the parts on eBay, but you need to be sure if they are for your model, many of the parts he is selling are not described correctly and are not for the model car he says they are.
Many parts are still available and are interchangeable with later and other Mazda models.
Let me know if I can be of assistance via a PM.
Ash
Was that the rear rotor? The engine in mine had issues with oil feed to the rear rotor. It also suffered when the coils died and it overfuelled.
overtightened alternator/waterpump pulleys could be a partial reason for the excentric shaft bearing wear.
A US test on 13B-REW engine with an OEM waterpump/airpump setup compared to a setup with deleted airpump and underdrive pulley kit showed that many peopl overtightened the waterpump/alternator belt in order to keep the waterpump pulley from slipping (reduced touch area due to different setup).
2 60.000 miles engines where stripped and the \'modified\' engien setup showed a lot more bearing wear due to this.
Out of interest - how do the bearings receive their oil supply ? (that\'s directed to anyone who knows)
Is it possible that you\'ve a blockage or bypass not working correctly and as a result are seeing oil starvation on the bearing ?
One of the reasons i sold my RX8, i bought it thinking the engines would last alot longer without being turbocharged but after reading that the engines actually still kinda fail at approx 60k i sold it with 55k on the engine.
shame as actually really liked the car !!!!
What i don\'t understand is that my local dealer has had only one engine failure on an RX8 and now has a considerable number of cars over 150,000 miles with no issues,they have sold over 500 cars.The engine that failed was in a car that was driven out of the showroom and returned on tha back of a truck 14,000 miles later having never been brought back by the owner for any sort of service with no oil on dipstick.Hardly Mazda\'s fault.
Maybe it is poor servicing from some dealers that is the problem?
Regards
Carl
There is an RX8 rotor sitting on our mazda dealers front desk, been there for a while, oil starvation due to lack of extra oil injectors caused the failures, its been there for years lol
What is "Funny" about engine failures??
Bearings are supplied oil from Oil Pump that is jetted through the eccentric shaft to rear bearing, rotors, etc.
I have just learned that your servicing intervals are 20,000 KMS or 12,000 Miles?? is this correct, that is way too far to go on engine oil in any rotary.!!
Australia is half that distance, every 10,000 KMS.
Anyone who runs a performance car for 12k miles without changing the oil probably deserves to have the engine fail, that\'s a scandalous lack of mechanical sensitivity :eek:
I change my oil ever 3000 miles lol plugs every 6000 :)
I think I read due to the lack of 3 oil injectors, no matter if you changed the oil or did everything correctly, it will still be damaged, I don\'t know why they switched from 3 injectors to 2? Ford infected maybe?
If you drain an RX8 sump you get about 3.5 litres out. It\'s got an oil capacity of 6.7 litres with the coolers and the like and it burns about 1/2 a litre every 1000 miles. Therefore between every service you\'re pretty much burning all your oil and refilling it anyway. It\'s known that the pipes to the rear oil injector can clog and cause failures, which has accounted for a few engines, also there have been manufacturing faults with the Nikasil housing liners which have caused failures which were inevitable, in much the same way that happened with BMW engines a few years back, the M54 straight six I think it was.
I\'m not saying that premixing is a bad idea but I do not think that the Renesis is such a massive ticking time bomb as it is made out to be.
Plus if the coil packs on RX8s fail the PCM overfuels the engine washing out the lubricating oil and ruining the catalytic converter which also contributes to increased wear and loss of compression.
Plus if the coil packs on RX8s fail the PCM overfuels the engine washing out the lubricating oil and ruining the catalytic converter which also contributes to increased wear and loss of compression.
Quote from: Will66;644729If you drain an RX8 sump you get about 3.5 litres out. It\'s got an oil capacity of 6.7 litres with the coolers and the like and it burns about 1/2 a litre every 1000 miles. Therefore between every service you\'re pretty much burning all your oil and refilling it anyway.
That isn\'t really how it works, Will :Giggle. All you\'d be doing is essentially distilling the oil to be as nasty, degraded and full of carbon as it possibly could be. Letting it burn 1/2 a litre per 1000 miles and then topping it up with fresh oil is not the same as draining the old oil away and replacing it! Oil very quickly loses its efficiency by mechanical stress, heat denaturing and assimilating debris and carbon. Adding 1/2 a litre fresh to 6.2 litres knackered just gives you 6.7 litres of knackered :3Confused
A distinct possibility indeed, but looking at the oil in the sump on mine it never seems to be in too bad a shape even getting close to servicing. Additionally the service interval is 12 months or 12,000 miles. Now I used to have mine serviced at least twice a year since it rarely got cold and I was doing 25k a year, now it\'s my second car I doubt I\'ll have done 6,000 miles between services particularly since I\'ve starting changing the oil before track days and doing the filter every second track day.
Quote from: HaywardRotary;644495What i don\'t understand is that my local dealer has had only one engine failure on an RX8 and now has a considerable number of cars over 150,000 miles with no issues,they have sold over 500 cars.The engine that failed was in a car that was driven out of the showroom and returned on tha back of a truck 14,000 miles later having never been brought back by the owner for any sort of service with no oil on dipstick.Hardly Mazda\'s fault.
Maybe it is poor servicing from some dealers that is the problem?
Regards
Carl
Funny, my dealer in Australia has done over a dozen engines and certainly has not sold "over" 500 RX-8\'s, about 250 in the 5 years.
All I keep hearing is denial from every dealer in the UK, while I am not putting words into their mouths, some members here believe their Car dealer or Garage would not lie to them...you are talking car dealerships here...you know car salesmen, those professionals known worldwide and in the top 3 of the most untrustworthy occupations in the world....all except the UK, surely not.
Another UK Rotary site has many comments on engine replacements in their UK cars.
QuoteMaybe it is poor servicing from some dealers that is the problem?
I think it is more like your servicing intervals are too far apart?..
I don\'t know how this is the fault of the Dealer??, it is not the dealers responsibility to maintain engine oil levels in an engine that is designed to consume oil...it is the owners.
IMO, it is the recommended 12,000 miles between servicing which an issue. Plus the fact nearly half of old engine oil is left behind in the oil coolers and lines, so you are really only changing half your engine oil with fresh.
I would really like to see all these so called RX-8\'s over 150,000 Miles without "no issues"....NO Issues, again frankly I don\'t believe this statement...to start with the coils won\'t last that distance.
There is no one in the US with an "original" RX-8 with anywhere near that mileage without an engine change, the highest I heard was 120,000.
I would really like to do a compression and performance test on all these 150K engines, they would be like slugs, and probably very hard to start.
My dealer in the UK has sold over 500 and has had four engine failures. Two of which were people failing to stop the motor when their oil radiator pipes failed and they ran the motor out of oil, one was the housing breaking up due to a flaw in the nikasil coating and one was my catastrophic failure.
I know there are several instances of failure but I don\'t think that the 8\'s engine is some kind of ticking timebomb that WILL fail.
Can\'t believe I\'m being drawn into this one again but I have to comment on this post:
Quote from: RX-8888;646382All I keep hearing is denial from every dealer in the UK, while I am not putting words into their mouths, some members here believe their Car dealer or Garage would not lie to them...you are talking car dealerships here...you know car salesmen, those professionals known worldwide and in the top 3 of the most untrustworthy occupations in the world....all except the UK, surely not.
You can\'t go branding every car dealer in the UK as dishonest and untrustworthly! These are the same dealers who in many cases, including mine, have gone out of their way to provide service well beyond what they have to.
The point I made before was that IF my engine fails it will be my dealer who I will go to for help - so of course I\'m going to take their advice.
And don\'t tell me are Bankers in the top two most untrustworthy occupations - they\'re all a bunch of crocks! :Giggle
Quote from: Will66;646419My dealer in the UK has sold over 500 and has had four engine failures. Two of which were people failing to stop the motor when their oil radiator pipes failed and they ran the motor out of oil, one was the housing breaking up due to a flaw in the nikasil coating and one was my catastrophic failure.
I know there are several instances of failure but I don\'t think that the 8\'s engine is some kind of ticking time-bomb that WILL fail.
I have not suggested it is a ticking time bomb at all, the information I have posted it to HELP those who want to listed or have an understanding of how a rotary works.
Yes, like any other engine ever made there are failures and owner errors.
This one Mazda has recognised and the main issue with ALL the 60 plus updates on the 2009~ Series II RX-8 (R3) were in the area of Oil Lubrication and Coolant/Engine Temperatures.
Yes a rotary can keep going until it dies with sluggish performance and hard starting, in most cases it is a very slow degradation in performance and compressions.
It is recognised not only be myself but by Mazda Technicians and Rotary Specialists all over the world who know about the Rotary and have actually rebuilt hundreds (not just a re-man swap out) that The ONLY Way to prevent Apex Seal Wear is Oil Lubrication.
Mazda really erred on the first Series RX-8 by NOT having a Middle Oil Weeper/Injector like all other rotaries since the 1985 FC RX-7, these all had a middle injector...why they thought the two outer ones in the RX-8 will do is beyoing most who have an understanding.
I am truly delighted and happy for anyone who gets a new engine when it is needed, the replacement engine will and is the same design as the one that came out, so what do you think is the best solution to Improve Engine Lubricity?.
Unfortunately you cant use/copy the Series II RX-8 engine and Mazda won\'t fit them because it is and would be cost prohibitive.
If I was on the receiving end of a new engine and decided to keep my RX-8 I would pre-mix, no questions.
And please this wear has NOTHING to do with the Type/Grade of oil you use.
What I don\'t like are the 12,000 oil change intervals..it is way too long considering 48% of your old oil is left behind when a dealer does an oil change or Service..