after some spirited driving, changed into second plodding along and just no power :( idles real rough
still drives smooth considering makes .4 bar of boost but just dosnt pull through the revs
feels like a boost pipe off but cant see one, also if i take the passenger side IC pipe off i runs exactly the same
Please please not a rebuild :( was only done 6k ago by WGT
Check the map sensor (n/s bulk head by the elbow) hasn\'t lost it\'s line.
any pics or idea where that would be, car reaks of v-power to
engine pic, has a t04z conversion with screamer and external wastegate, sounds like a massive blow aswell round the tubby
(http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d92/markpriorgtst/IMG_0577-1.jpg)
check your boost gauge on idle. Does it hold steady vacuum?
two readings
on startup
Greddy profec b II - 12- 24 X100 kpa
power fc - 150 - 224 mmh
after a rev it does get steady
136mmh pfc
12-14 greddy
car proper hum\'s of petrol
does the gauge flicker about? or is the needle relatively steady
no needle both digital
the are a little erratic IMHO but seem to settle after a rev of the engine, oh and engine seems to wobble about but probs with the poop idle
Blown fuel injector? Or indeed stuck open fuel injector?
Quote from: m1tch;635849Blown fuel injector? Or indeed stuck open fuel injector?
any idea how to diagnose?
Bump :(
sick
How does your car sound on idle?
Take a video and post it on youtube and paste the link here
If it\'s smelling of fuel that suggests you\'ve got a small fuel leak somewhere or one of the breathers for the injectors may have come off - small hoses that connect near the injector bases and return back to a vac source (on the fc they are off the back of the throttle body - but not sure about the FD.
The poor idle could be a MAP problem - what reading is it on idle - have you got a boost gauge in bar ? You should see negative figures on idle, if it\'s reading atmospheric then it\'s not seeing vacuum.
will get a vid and post a link
whats the signs of rebuild just kinda preparing for the worst :(
Some classic signs are :
- wobbling boost gauge needle on idle
- Lumpy idle - sounds like a tractor, usually gets smoother with revs
- Pressurised coolant - or bubbles in the AST tank
- Water and oil mixing
- Hard to start cold
- White smoke in the exhaust that doesn\'t go after a few minutes
It\'s worth pulling the plugs and looking at what state they are in, you\'d be suprised how many times people have fixed poor running just replacing plugs.
Also, if you just take the bottom 2 plugs out for starters, and then remove the EGI fuse and crank the engine over - it won\'t start, but you can listen for even whooshing noises from the plug holes - if you don\'t get 3 even wooshes from each rotor then it sounds like a seal gone.
But check for a hose off on the MAP sensor and check the plugs before suspecting a rebuild.
:Thumbs-up
Dude the map sensor is the little black box attached to the bulk head via a funny L shaped bracket.
Its got a hose attcahed to the bottom with a small round plastic part about an inch from it and this leads to the throttle body.
Im off to the workshop in a bit and ill get a picture and post it up if your still stuck.
Regards
Matt
Will usually sound like a bag of spanners when it\'s trying to run.
Problems starting from cold.
These are the usual main two.
Oh, clouds and clouds of smoke as well is usually a bad sign - but this can be down to several things, not just a blown rotor.
As Prof says - whip out the EGI fuse and plugs and listen out for the \'whooshes\', if you are even SLIGHTLY| concerned that you\'ve chipped or bust a seal or two think VERY carefully about starting it proper. If you have a busted tip it could not only gouge out the rotor housings, but the turbo(s) may also have a chew on it if it any debris gets blasted out the block - means that the upcoming rebuild is all the more expensive!!
hth
graeme
idle vid
holds vac ok
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gdH8gUiKEXM
checked the MAP sensor seems fine :(
have you messed with the boost at all?
Is the fuel tank / pump ok?
If you have a really bad smell of fuel and rough running there could be a leak which is starving the engine?
not messed with the boost its set to 1 bar, petrol smell comes from the exhaust along with some smoke blue\'ish in colour
You probably have chipped a tip seal which gives poor idle,but reasonable cruise and then poor on boost response.
Compression test will show this.
Regards
Carl
well - rotaries always run rich - but it could just be misfiring - I\'d take a gander at the plugs for sure. A little blue smoke on start up isn\'t a problem - particulary if it isn\'t firing properly
Try taking out your plugs and check to see if they are okay...
The Map sensor is pictured below. There should be a pipe going into the bottom of it, make sure it hasn\'t come out or have a split in it.
(http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e181/kash_5/IMG_0577-1.jpg)
Best off getting yourself a compression test really mark then at least the bad stuff can be put to rest and concentrate on fixing it without the dread of big money hanging over you.
You have only had the car 5 mins mate, really feel for you.
Hope its nothing serious.
aye going to do a compression test monday
whats the case if it is a chiped tip?
Depends on what else it\'s done on the way out.....
If you\'re VERY lucky, it might just be an engine out, strip, replace one tip job.
If the chip didn\'t disintegrate and stayed as a solid bit it may have gouged the rotor housing which means a new one.
Worst case scenario, it has been spat out the exhaust manifold which means it\'s probably chewed up the turbine blades in the turbo(s).
BUT before you start thinking the worst, get the comp. test done!! It may be nothing serious and just a fuelling problem of some kind.
Will do, going to do the compression test saturday whats the psi/bar that i should have across the range?
mrs just said if its proper ......ed i can sell it and buy a c6 corvette lol
last quick question if i melted a plug would i get these symptoms
A ruined plug would make it run horrible. You wouldnt be burning all the fuel/air mixture cleanly so would explain the smell in the exhaust. But in all fairness mines smells horrible anyway!!
bar (psi):
under 5 (70): ruined - bin it and start again
5-6 (70-90): think about a rebuild shortly
6-7 (90-100): no problems here
over 8 (116): essentially a \'brand new\' engine\'s figures
(Ive rounded the psi figures a bit.)
Also, you don\'t want to see just high figures, you want a nice even spread across all three points on each rotor.
good example:
6.0 6.1 6.3 front
6.4 6.2 6.0 rear
bad example:
6.0 5.4 6.3 front
6.4 6.2 6.0 rear
this shows that one seal is knackered - if you\'ve chipped one expect to see something like this.
HTH
graeme
cheers mate thats a big help
hi mate where near chester if thats any help to you,give her a quick check over and a compression test
thanks Dwayne
thanks for the offer 176 miles away though lol
Fingers crossed yours hasn\'t, but It sounds just like my old motor did when it blew an apex seal. Mine didnt start that easily but sounded the same and had similar symptoms.
what happens if it has blew a apex seal?
Quote from: MARKPRIOR;637103what happens if it has blew a apex seal?
Sadly it would need to be rebuilt.
Regards
Carl
bugger, would it mean new housings & rotars?
Not neccessarily.
A busted apex seal is essentially the same thing as a chipped tip. It depends what damage it\'s caused on the way out.
If the seal has disintegrated completely then you might get away with some new seals / tips only, with minimal mucking about.
However, if it\'s got trapped and been swept round the inside of the housing by the rotor, then it could\'ve gouged out the housing, or damaged the rotor.
Unfortunately, there\'s no real way to know how bad it is until the motor is stripped AFAIK.
bugger, managed to check the tubby sunday and that was fine so nothing has shot out and mangled that at least, couldnt get the plugs out to check them, is there a special tool to get them out as they seem to be in a tiny recess and i couldnt get my plug spanner on them
I just got me a long socket and a socket wrench. The plug size is 14mm IIRC,
Also, I jacked up the car and took them out from underneath, i found it easier than trying to negotiate my way down from the top!!
cheers Neil is there anywhere local you can think off who could do a decent compression test?
I assume you were\'nt refering to me there - i\'m a Graeme!! ;)
A local Mazda dealer should be able to do it while-u-wait-stylee as they do it with RX-8s, should cost around 30 sheets.
just make sure the garage man uses the correct tester, a piston engine one has a protuding tip which will destroy the seals completely!
not to bad then, didnt even think about mazda lol
lol no Neiljdmr :D
Only person locally mate is Jurgen from J-m Imports, He is currently doing rebulds for a couple of local lads so figure he can compression test easily enough.
Otherwise as Greame said mazda dealerships will do you a while you wait service but i have my reservations about main dealers especially when MY rotary is concerned
cool spoke to Jurgen sunday, he is going to take a look at it for me next week when hes back from holiday :D
Nice one, hope it turns out OK for you bud. Bit of a nightmare start to FD ownership - but if it\'s gone it\'s gone, at least you get your blow-up out of the way early!!
However tempting it is, I wouldn\'t drive it until you get it checked out. If you can, get it towed/trailered to Jurgen. If it turns out it is a seal or tip, and there is still wee bits of seal or tip still inside the motor, cranking it could do a lot more damage than already done!!
graeme
trailor already arranged, whats the average price of a rebuild so i can prepare lol
Depends on damage mate.
I had a full rebuild - the lot and that was £4800. But it included rebuilt turbos etc as well. And it was done by Pip @ WGT who is always a bit pricier.
Before you start worrying though mate see what Jurgen has to say - it might be nothing!!
...... to that it will be getting broke lol, was rebuilt by WGT 6k ago aswell
Alternatively rebuild it yourself.... Assuming you dont need any housings/plates or rotors, even if you replace every seal and every o ring in the engine it\'s less than a grand...
quite competent with pistons but never rebuilt a dorito before :(
If you can build a Piston engine mate these are a thousand times easier :D plenty of help available if you need it on here :)
Too many RX\'s are getting broken to be honest, there wont be many left soon :(
might give it a blast then any rebuild guides?
I believe Jurgen charges around £2500 for a full rebuild assuming everything is fairly straightforward, Or that may be be a basic rebuild ie water seals etc
Have a read of this and see what you think:-
http://www.mazdarotaryclub.com/forums/showthread.php?t=46981
and this is the link to my rebuild thread i did just so you get the idea :)
http://www.mazdarotaryclub.com/forums/showthread.php?t=54022
why does it cost so much to rebuild these ?
nice write up!
Quote from: MARKPRIOR;637674why does it cost so much to rebuild these ?
nice write up!
Dude, compared to the cost of a normal engine build, it\'s peanuts!
\'Cos it\'s quite labour intensive to do, the engine itself only has about ten moving parts!
A few hours in a garage for someone at £40/hr soon adds up!
Yup as said above it is a labout intensive job, cleaning and checking everything and all the ancillaries to get it right....
Saying that and as above it is still cheaper than say forging a piston engine.... I forged evo engine will set you back best part of 6 grand or so..... so imagine a liners engine cost!!!
skylines arnt that bad 2k including bits and labour
i was going to say rotaries are much more expensive to rebuild than piston engines.
forging a piston engine is peanuts these days. under 500 quid for the pistons ( 4 pot ) if you get them from abroad. ive just fully rebuilt my missus c20xe with new shells, regrind, rings, head and block skim, ground in 16 new valves and all the seals for less than 300 quid.
wish i could rebuild my 13b-rew for that lol.
I would think if you wanted to do it on the cheap then it\'s entirely possible - seal kits aren\'t massively expensive, and you could use a good used housing if you need to replace one of those - rotors are usually ok.
If you\'ve spent money out initially on something like PTS apex seals, then you\'d be reusing them and the housings - most likely you\'d have just \'popped\' one of the rubber seals out - that sort of rebuild is cheap :cheers
cool will check the bills to see what materials were used
cheers
Quote from: Prof;638156I would think if you wanted to do it on the cheap then it\'s entirely possible - seal kits aren\'t massively expensive, and you could use a good used housing if you need to replace one of those - rotors are usually ok.
If you\'ve spent money out initially on something like PTS apex seals, then you\'d be reusing them and the housings - most likely you\'d have just \'popped\' one of the rubber seals out - that sort of rebuild is cheap :cheers
Rubber seals popped out will not create this sort of problem.
Regards
Carl
Quote from: HaywardRotary;638173Rubber seals popped out will not create this sort of problem.
Regards
Carl
Yeh - I know - my post was more in relation to the cost of rebuilds and the comparisons being made to boinger rebuilds being cheaper, as not all rebuilds on a rotary are necessarily so expensive.
Mark,
Have you compression tested it yet - just interested..
BTW you can use a standard compression tester. You just need to remove the pressure valve arrangement so that you can see the needle moving on each pulse. You can do it without (the end valve protrudes no further than some Mazda approved plugs) but you\'ll only get the peak reading as has been mentioned.
We use a modified unit regularly post session and races to keep an eye on engine health. Not as precise as the full tool, but enought to be indicative of a problem which is what you\'re trying to achieve.
S.
Quote from: MARKPRIOR;637148bugger, managed to check the tubby sunday and that was fine so nothing has shot out and mangled that at least, couldnt get the plugs out to check them, is there a special tool to get them out as they seem to be in a tiny recess and i couldnt get my plug spanner on them
When you\'re using certain types of plugs in a 13B housing with the plug covers not ground off (which it sounds like you have) you\'ll need a slim fit plug spanner, your usual socket will be too thick. Can be turned down in a lathe to fit.
Alternative is either ground the housings back when it\'s being rebuilt, or use the other type of plugs.
FYI These are the type that don\'t require a thin wall socket;
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/NGK-BUR9EQ-RX7-FC3S-FD3S-13B-13BT-S4-13BREW-13BRE-mazda_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQitemZ220466899456
These are the type that do;
http://www.shop-racing.com/boutique_us/fiche_produit.cfm?ref=SR_NGK_B105EGP&type=182&code_lg=lg_us&num=191
(it\'s the bit above the thread I\'m showing you, not the electrodes or the grades).
S.
thanks for the advice stacy the compression check is getting don tomorrow hopfully :D
Mark,
Do double check the pressure tester doesn\'t protrude further than the plug if you\'re doing that, the standard issue ones don\'t but I don\'t want to be the one that clobbers a tip!
how did the comp test go mark?
i have a good compression tested engine for sale if your interested? txt or call me on 07709136667
well folks jamie is having a look for me today hopefully will get an idea of what is wrong :D
well tried last night, tried leads, MAP sensor etc... but still couldnt get the plugs out to get a compression test arrrrgh
so now a tool has been "created" to get them out lol, at it again tonight
Hy mate, I\'m in thesame boat. Built myself a new engine (new plates, new housings) and got around to do less than 2000km.
Then I just floored it once in 1stegear and suddenly no power, bumpy idle and a vac reading fo only 0.3kg (instead of a steady 0.4kg+) before.
checked the map sensor and it had a tear in the line, hoped it would fix it but no...still thesame. so will have to rebuild what is an as good as new engine...
bugger
well comp test done
rear 7.0, 7.0, 6.5
front 0, 0, 0,
will be getting sold as is for 5k if anyones interested drop me a pm or email markprior20@hotmail.com
spec here - http://www.mazdarotaryclub.com/forums/showthread.php?t=58801
sickend!
sorry to hear youre selling it mate. not a great out come was it. i was really worried by the spark plugs before we comp tested it. i wonder if a plug has lost a tip. who was it that put those plugs in it mark?
Quote from: rx jamie;640157sorry to hear youre selling it mate. not a great out come was it. i was really worried by the spark plugs before we comp tested it. i wonder if a plug has lost a tip. who was it that put those plugs in it mark?
not sure to be honest last recorded change was wgt but could have been replaced later
Sorry to hear mate,not the best start to rotary ownership. Sounds like a great spec car though if you change your mind jurgen can rebuild it for you.
hi, if its only just been rebuilt even if its out of time it must be worth asking wgt to a little look..
was done 18 month & just over 6k miles ago apparently, not checked reciepts just what was told
sorry to hear about this!!
Did it go under heavy boost? You seem to have a solid car. It must have run lean for some reason :(
it went when i back off boost, dunno maybe hit 0.8 bar :( was in first
See my post on page 3... mine did exactly the same. First gear just floored it to about 6000rpm, backed of throttle and lost compression...
Does yours have a big streetport, As mine has and I\'m figuring it might be a side seal or corner seal that went.
yeah its a street port. i think it did go lean as the leading plugs were blistered ( kind of like when metal goes rusty and bubbles). the plugs were rated 9\'s but were for boingers and not a rotary ( im no expert but usually the plugs for rotaries are different arent thye????),
Plugs for rotaries have an enclosed tip so nothing protrudes through the housing wall. If the plugs were for pistons then you very well could have had the tip of the plug chip all apex seals on the rotor. At least thats my interpretation of it.
Anyone else shed some light?
Sorry \'bout the car though matey - never nice to hear one go, doubly so when it\'s such a \'new\' purchase for someone.
yeah i thought that was right. they werent protruding through the housings, as i went home and checked piston engine spark plugs in my housings that are out for a rebuild at the moment. they fit in and would worked without coming too close to the tips... and obviously with him doing 6k miles they werent touching the tips. and its quite hard for the tips to touch anyway as the plugs are quite well enclosed and protected from the seal tips by the housings. but im just wondering if a spark plug tip came off and hit the rotor tips as the spark plug tips werent in the best condition. but i suppose theres only one way to find out and thats pull it apart.
sparkers that were in
http://www.neobrothers.co.uk/images/saab%20spark%20plug.jpg
sparkers that should have been in.
http://www.silverbulletrx7.com/plugs/ngk1.jpg
strange thing is that I drove home and the morning after I pulled the EGI fuse and spark plugs. Started the engine and ther was no sign of a compression leak.
All very similar \'woosh\' sounds... still vac reading under normal
Ah well.. time to rebuild... again...