right guys im in oz at the moment and found a lovely cosmo 20b turbo engine for a good price. just wondering after i buy engine whata re the next steps and costs in fitting and running it in a fd
prob rebuild it first but ive heard things about getting new sub frames etc etc
just wondering is a really expensive operation and will it eat the fd gearbox or even fit it at all
cheers for any links or info from experiences:Thumbs-up
It will require a bit of mucking about but it\'s far from a rare mod - quite a few have been done.
Use the \'search\' button to look for the build threads - theres at least two on here. The Norwegian one is the most recent
any help with a link or advice lads
look for Undefined Autoworks/motorsports in the vendor section of RX7club.com
they have a kit that allows you to mount the 20B with the OEM subframe.The kit only costs about 1400 USD.
You will need to send them (or do it yourself) some of your parts to have them modified.
UIM needs to be cut and lowered to clear the hood,
steering rack needs modification to clear front cover
oil pan needs modfication.
http://www.mazdarotaryclub.com/forums/showthread.php?t=527&highlight=Autoworks%2Fmotorsports (http://www.mazdarotaryclub.com/forums/showthread.php?t=527&highlight=Autoworks%2Fmotorsports)
Quote from: trotter;628073Use the \'search\' button to look for the build threads - theres at least two on here. The Norwegian one is the most recent
That\'s a 4 rotor fella. There\'s a couple of progress threads on FDUK too, Matt and mccarthy are good ones.
you will need a lot of custom work, presumably you will be going single turbo (no point otherwise), in which case you need a huge turbo,huge fuel system, huge i/c & Rad, huge clutch (our twin plate let go today on the rollers at 500 rwhp at 0.9 bar), your gearbox wont last long, neither will your diff, exhaust system and turbo manifold will need to be custom made. ECU, injectors and everything else you would also have on an 13b with a single turbo. You cant use an apexi either.
Then you have to fit it in the engine bay. Beware of stuff from the USA, they are LHD so the turbo doesnt foul on the steering column. The engine will be quite far forward unless you lower it and put it further back in the tunnel, then you have to convert and move the gear lever to be in the right place, chop the prop and modify the power plant frame.
I hope you have deep pockets, you will need them :eek:
rough price figure mate after engine bought? and what ecu do ya have to change to map them
i know of 3 but im sure there are more, micrtech, motec, haltec.
its impossible to calculate costs, it varies so much on what you can do your self and what you have to pay someone else to do, what you can fab and what you cant, what power you want, etc etc. If you are going to pay someone to do the lot, you are talking lambo money
Hey Colin have you and Eric won the lottery?? My single is going nice now and its almost too fast. (ie i have nearly died a few times this week and caught by the police)
not won the lotto im in oz and have a good job so would like to send home parts for my car as a project when i get back.
im lookin for 500-600
price im lookin for is just the cost of making it fit the car like subframes etc
excluding upgrading turbos and fueling and diffs/gearboxes etc
just the prep cost to the car to be able to fit the engine
lookin to get rough figures on this before i start
i know what d kit costs from defined autoworks on RX7club.com
$1600 for subframe mounts
$350 for reducing height of intack
after this is paid for what kind of money is needed to finish for a 500hp car
20B longblock = $4000
fresh rebuild/port =
good standalone =
ignition coils =
custom ignition wires =
custom exhaust =
custom intercooler setup =
turbo = £2000
custom oil coolers/lines =
custom radiator =
lightweight flywheel =
upgraded clutch =
upgrade fuel pump =
gearbox =
diff =
just lookin for a rough figure so i dont jump head first into a project too big for my pocket
I have put these pounds approx figures plus a couple of things you have forgotton.
fresh rebuild/port = £4000
good standalone = £1000 if going Mircotech much more for Motec
ignition coils =
custom ignition wires =
custom exhaust =
custom intercooler setup = £1000
turbo = £2000
Turbo Manifold = £1000
Wastegate = £500
custom oil coolers/lines =
custom radiator = £500
lightweight flywheel =
upgraded clutch = OS Giken Tripple plate includes flywheel £1500
upgrade fuel pump = Twin Bosch 044s £400
Braided fuel lines £200
gearbox = You can use the FD box wont last long go used HKS or Supra Conversion £2000- £4000
diff = Kazz diff £500
Don\'t forget the custom subframe etc. Like antnicuk says, it\'ll sit far too far forwards and much too high if you leave the rack and mounts etc as stock. You have to make a custom subframe and ideally clearance the firewall backwards so as to fit the lump down and behind the rack, otherwise it ballses up the weight distribution and that. The parts are the tip of the iceberg, it\'s all the one-off stuff and fabrication that\'ll kick you hard in the nuts
Better off going V8, backs off quickly before:flamed
Why would you want the dull sound of a V8? The only thing that sounds worse than a V8 is the mopeds the chavs use.
cheers lads, might take my time and buy parts over the next year and get into the install in june 2010, no interest in v8s, sick of listening to them in oz
Quote from: colin777;629329cheers lads, might take my time and buy parts over the next year and get into the install in june 2010, no interest in v8s, sick of listening to them in oz
:Santa
Yea V8s suck dude.
We share the same interests lol :p
Can you get more than one block?
Just trying to give you another option, seems like a lot of cash to pay for a sound:2Rolleyes.
Erm I think someone got lost in the url...
www.mazdaROTARYclub.com (http://www.mazdarotaryclub.com)
I think you were looking for www.mazdav8doesnotbelonginarx7.com (http://www.mazdav8doesnotbelonginarx7.com)
Lol only messing just having some banter mate.
ahh but you cant beat the sound of a 3 rotor , money no object I would do it :D
sometimes its not about the money its about the want
It\'s not only the sound of a 3-rotor but plenty of power from a nice sized turbo :D
Quote from: Rzla;629360Erm I think someone got lost in the url...
www.mazdaROTARYclub.com (http://www.mazdarotaryclub.com)
I think you were looking for www.mazdav8doesnotbelonginarx7.com (http://www.mazdav8doesnotbelonginarx7.com)
Lol only messing just having some banter mate.
Cheeky, coming from a mere guest of the club;)
Can\'t beat a bit of banter eh:Thumbs-up
Quote from: Spartacus;629380Cheeky, coming from a mere guest of the club;)
Can\'t beat a bit of banter eh:Thumbs-up
Lol glad you took it in a light hearted way ;)
Guests are just as important to this club as full members...
Banter is always good for progression and well.. a bit of fun lol
I love V8s. If I couldn\'t have a rotary I\'d want a big fat massive V8 monster. Crobba crobba crobba burble parp! :D I think they sound awesome. Just not sure an FD is the right place for one :( Ironic that Spartacus and others can do a V8 conversion for less money and aggravation seemingly than fitting Mazda\'s own 20B lump in, seems wrong somehow :confused:
you will struggle to buy parts over time, as you will not know what you need until you come to that part of the project, you could buy the essentials like clutch, but everything will have to made to fit once the engine is in and if you need manifolds etc then the fabricator is going to need the car as its will be a tight fit.
I have helped build this project and built the engine, it made 490 RWHP on tuesday at 0.8 bar before the ecu gave up with a smallish turbo but give me phil goriahs LS7 FD any day.......... have you seen the size his new rear wheels. :eek::eek:
I heard phils car last week and it actually sounds very similar to the 20B. People go on about the sound of a 20B but it sounds like a V8, plus, most people on here have only heard a 20B on You Tube as there are only 4 or 5 in the country :Hammer
This isnt an uptodate picture but you get the idea
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i225/Antnicuk/tripletrbo1-1.jpg)
Quote from: antnicuk;629428People go on about the sound of a 20B but it sounds like a V8
Classic:evillaugh:Thumbsup!
when you gonna pop round phil, i\'m still waiting for a passenger ride in your beast, you can come out in the stylus if your brave enough :)
Quote from: antnicuk;629428People go on about the sound of a 20B but it sounds like a V8
What ever you are smokin give me some!
It must be some really strong stuff to come up with such an unfactual comment as above.
Maybe your 20b sounds like a V8, but 99% of others don\'t lol. And a majority of people would agree that a 20B sounds like a beauty and the V8 a beast in comparison.
It\'s not that I don\'t mind a V8, it just does not belong in an RX7.
The R stands for ROTARY.
:flamed
not getting into the whole V8/Rotary argument...................
How many 20b\'s have you heard in the flesh?
If you want to get all technical a 20b is much smoother than a v8, sound is entirely subjective, one man\'s Beethoven is another man\'s Cheeky Girls and so forth. Personally I would rather like a 20b in my RX8, street port, big turbo, nice round 500 bhp and plenty of torque in a fairly unstressed way. However until I win the lottery or discover a fool proof method of evading Somali Pirates or something I\'ll stick with a two rotor in it. I reckon getting a V8 in an RX8 would be possible but it\'s not so appealling.
Not even every V8 engine sounds the same.
Ever heard a F430 compared to a Big ol\' American V8?
BIG diff.
The infrastructure of a Piston engine dictates the sound it makes, depending on the type of crankshaft etc. It may be possible to get a rotary and a V8 to sound similar on idle, but on WOT it would not be possible to get the same sound, for the basic fact that each engine consists of completely different components.
But regardless of that, 20B FTW!
Quote from: Will66;629488If you want to get all technical a 20b is much smoother than a v8, sound is entirely subjective, one man\'s Beethoven is another man\'s Cheeky Girls and so forth. Personally I would rather like a 20b in my RX8, street port, big turbo, nice round 500 bhp and plenty of torque in a fairly unstressed way. However until I win the lottery or discover a fool proof method of evading Somali Pirates or something I\'ll stick with a two rotor in it. I reckon getting a V8 in an RX8 would be possible but it\'s not so appealling.
:Thumbsup!
Oops, hands up how many people have listened to (in the flesh) an LSx V8 in a FD and a 20b in an FD?
Or shall we just forget it and let the original poster have his thread back?:Yawn
Quote from: Will66;629488I reckon getting a V8 in an RX8 would be possible but it\'s not so appealling.
Been done already:driving
Quote from: Spartacus;629500Oops, hands up how many people have listened to (in the flesh) an LSx V8 in a FD and a 20b in an FD?
:Yawn
:wave Yes, me last week, next to each other.
basically they are mental engine, do sound great, make loads of power and if you have the money, go for it, there are probably still more V8 rx7\'s than there are 20b\'s so you will be one of the lucky few but remember you cant buy the centre housings any more and the engines are pretty rare to start with, there is no support from mazda any more and parts are rocketing in price, new rotor housings used to be under 300 quid not too long ago, now they are £1000 :eek: Tips used to be £24 each, they are now over £50 and you need 9 of them :2Rolleyes
Quote from: Spartacus;629500Oops, hands up how many people have listened to (in the flesh) an LSx V8 in a FD and a 20b in an FD?
Or shall we just forget it and let the original poster have his thread back?:Yawn
Good point, the original thread was about 20B\'s, why even bring in a V8 conversion?
Regardless of hearing it or not, mechanically speaking the
ENGINE cannot make the same sound.
guys can we please keep the thread to what it is and keep the V8\'s out of here!
Please take this the way it was written...... light heartedly! ....... i have put more useful technical stuff on this thread than anyone else because i have done exactly the same conversion, Spartacus gave him another option as an alternative for an engine swap which is cheaper and can ultimately provide the same power and more torque. He has done the V8 conversion himself so is in a perfect position to give advice to the fella, just because you dont like V8\'s , doesnt mean someone may not like the info spartacus is giving.
I think its definately keeping the thread on track, Rzla was the one taking things off track by saying he wouldnt hhave a V8 cos of the sound it makes. I would never make my choice of engine by the sound it makes. Plus, anny B/P rotary just sounds like woopee cushion to me, not nice at all! but each to their own :)
I have a rotary not a V8 but if I were a betting man, i would be putting money on Tinkers V8 rx7 being the fastest RX7 at TOTB!
Lol well you would lose your money ant.
Give me a v8 and a rotary with the same power and same driver.. the rotary would be quicker.
And secondly I did not say I would not have a v8 purely because of the sound it makes, don\'t put words in my mouth, that is one of the reasons.
A v8 does not belong in an rx7 is another reason why I would not have a v8 in an rx7, as I said the r in 7 stands for ROTARY. There are many reasons but I won\'t go into them.
The sound point I was just a quick point I was picking out about why I would not have the v8 in an rx7.There are many more but I will not go into them.
Another car maybe, but not a rex.
If your 20b sounds like a v8 than something is seriously going wrong lol. :p
Quote from: Rzla;629341:Santa
Yea V8s suck dude.
We share the same interests lol :p
Can you get more than one block?
ya the place i found the block has 4 in total
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i225/Antnicuk/tripletrbo1-1.jpg)
wow that looks complicated, what ever plan ye had with this its mental, never seen one look like that around. fiar play, i wont be trying to replicate that, will try to keep it simple as possible
what ecu you going with next and is a gt42r turbo a nice setup with plenty of fuel :burnout
Quote from: antnicuk;629514Please take this the way it was written...... light heartedly! ....... i have put more useful technical stuff on this thread than anyone else because i have done exactly the same conversion, Spartacus gave him another option as an alternative for an engine swap which is cheaper and can ultimately provide the same power and more torque. He has done the V8 conversion himself so is in a perfect position to give advice to the fella, just because you dont like V8\'s , doesnt mean someone may not like the info spartacus is giving.
I think its definately keeping the thread on track, Rzla was the one taking things off track by saying he wouldnt hhave a V8 cos of the sound it makes. I would never make my choice of engine by the sound it makes. Plus, anny B/P rotary just sounds like woopee cushion to me, not nice at all! but each to their own :)
I have a rotary not a V8 but if I were a betting man, i would be putting money on Tinkers V8 rx7 being the fastest RX7 at TOTB!
Give up Tony, some people just don\'t want to listen or learn from others experience (or even pay to join the club;))
Quote from: antnicuk;629514I have a rotary not a V8 but if I were a betting man, i would be putting money on Tinkers V8 rx7 being the fastest RX7 at TOTB!
yes I agree actually, because I wont be there competiting :D lol
Quote from: Rzla;629533Lol well you would lose your money ant.
Give me a v8 and a rotary with the same power and same driver.. the rotary would be quicker.
And secondly I did not say I would not have a v8 purely because of the sound it makes, don\'t put words in my mouth, that is one of the reasons.
A v8 does not belong in an rx7 is another reason why I would not have a v8 in an rx7, as I said the r in 7 stands for ROTARY. There are many reasons but I won\'t go into them.
The sound point I was just a quick point I was picking out about why I would not have the v8 in an rx7.There are many more but I will not go into them.
Another car maybe, but not a rex.
If your 20b sounds like a v8 than something is seriously going wrong lol. :p
I agree with you an RX7 with a rotary will .... one with the same power V8. but tinkers is by far the most powerful going up there, 550 at the wheels or more with the same torques..... and he can get it under 103 db which is always a bonus.
I\'m not doing the which is better, V* or rotary argument as i said, each to their own.
The above car is way too complicated but its not mine, its my cousins and he likes fabricating., i have just done a lot of work to it. They dont need to be that complicated. A decent T88 or GT45 would give over 500 at the wheels at sensible boost but your gearbox wont like it. Pip seems to like dry sumping his so the engine will go lower in the car.
Quote from: colin777;629542ya the place i found the block has 4 in total
Hmmm what kinda price to get one here?
I know someone who wants to put a 20b lump in a 240z.
Quote from: Rzla;629561Hmmm what kinda price to get one here?
I know someone who wants to put a 20b lump in a 240z.
A rotary brappy thing in classic Datsun? That’s just wrong "it does not belong", (sound familiar?) I\'ll ruin the fine handling etc etc......... Just wait till I tell the DOC:Giggle
well the fella in oz is selling them for 4800 aus dollars
they prob need a rebuild but your going to do that anyway
Quote from: Spartacus;629566A rotary brappy thing in classic Datsun? That’s just wrong "it does not belong", (sound familiar?) I\'ll ruin the fine handling etc etc......... Just wait till I tell the DOC:Giggle
You are absolutely right! Guests hey, what do they know? They don\'t exactly contribute any money to the club or support it at shows. Let\'s get rid of all guests!
Shame on them! :rolleyes:
As for the 20b in his Datsun, oh my word shock horror! I think you should report it to the police mate! He has seen the light, that\'s the only thing I can say. There are enough of the pistons in the world without needing any more lol. The more brap brap rotaries the better.
The only way the rotary scene will develop is by more research into the engine like PR do. Not people putting V8s in them. The knowledge in the past has not been the best, but that is improving thankfully, and resulting more and more reliable rotaries. There are so many piston cars in the world, leave the rotary cars to be what they are meant to be, rotary powered.
Oh and this is a thread about a 20b rotary engine so :WaveBye
Oh and for the record I never said I hated V8s before you start accusing me of being anti-v8 lol.
And as you said let\'s let the original poster have his thread back. I had to respond to your post about the guests thing because you keep referring to the guests as though it is a dismissive thing.
Quote from: colin777;629572well the fella in oz is selling them for 4800 aus dollars
they prob need a rebuild but your going to do that anyway
Cool... How are you bringing the engine here if you don\'t mind me asking?
Quote from: Rzla;629576You are absolutely right! Guests hey, what do they know? They don\'t exactly contribute any money to the club or support it at shows. Let\'s get rid of all guests!
Shame on them! :rolleyes:
As for the 20b in his Datsun, oh my word shock horror! I think you should report it to the police mate! He has seen the light, that\'s the only thing I can say. There are enough of the pistons in the world without needing any more lol. The more brap brap rotaries the better.
The only way the rotary scene will develop is by more research into the engine like PR do. Not people putting V8s in them. The knowledge in the past has not been the best, but that is improving thankfully, and resulting more and more reliable rotaries. There are so many piston cars in the world, leave the rotary cars to be what they are meant to be, rotary powered.
Oh and this is a thread about a 20b rotary engine so :WaveBye
Oh and for the record I never said I hated V8s before you start accusing me of being anti-v8 lol.
And as you said let\'s let the original poster have his thread back. I had to respond to your post about the guests thing because you keep referring to the guests as though it is a dismissive thing.
Good job you can still take as well as give some banter eh? "Lol only messing just having some banter mate":rolleyes::wiggle
Raz, Tim (RX Motors) may have some 20b\'s left, they would work a lot cheaper than that, we bought 4 :)
4,800.00 Australian dollars = 2,379.58 British pounds sterling
as i mentioned above, parts are becoming harder and harder to come buy, no centre plates for the 20b, etc etc, its going to make it a lot more difficult to keep developing this old technology without support from mazda making the parts at an affordable price. If you speak to all the tuners, they all hate mazda for the way they are treating them.
With a bit of luck, someone will start casting housings and plates so we can still afford to play some more. I think mazda are being a bit thoughtless but i suppose they are there to make money. We will have to start playing with the Renesis lump i spose.
The 13b has done well though, its still the same design that was in the 1970s with very little change. The thing that has made things so much better is modern electronics and turbos.
I have always had at least 1 rotary powered car for the last 20 years and cant see myself being without one in the future unless they become stupidly expensive. I blew my engine at Cadwell park due to fuel pump failure, it took me 7 evenings and £350 to remove, rebuild and replace, i couldnt do that with any other engine but then most others wouldnt have died with fuel pump failure as they will take a little detonation.
BMW V8\'s have been my best road cars, but rotary power has been/is my best track car.
Quote from: Spartacus;629578Good job you can still take as well as give some banter eh? "Lol only messing just having some banter mate":rolleyes::wiggle
Lol mate don\'t take it too personally.. it\'s all fun!
Let\'s agree to disagree? lol
Indeed, mines a pint:guinness. By the way a 240Z would make a lovely home for a LSx:eek:
Quote from: antnicuk;629579Raz, Tim (RX Motors) may have some 20b\'s left, they would work a lot cheaper than that, we bought 4 :)
4,800.00 Australian dollars = 2,379.58 British pounds sterling
as i mentioned above, parts are becoming harder and harder to come buy, no centre plates for the 20b, etc etc, its going to make it a lot more difficult to keep developing this old technology without support from mazda making the parts at an affordable price. If you speak to all the tuners, they all hate mazda for the way they are treating them.
With a bit of luck, someone will start casting housings and plates so we can still afford to play some more. I think mazda are being a bit thoughtless but i suppose they are there to make money. We will have to start playing with the Renesis lump i spose.
The 13b has done well though, its still the same design that was in the 1970s with very little change. The thing that has made things so much better is modern electronics and turbos.
I have always had at least 1 rotary powered car for the last 20 years and cant see myself being without one in the future unless they become stupidly expensive. I blew my engine at Cadwell park due to fuel pump failure, it took me 7 evenings and £350 to remove, rebuild and replace, i couldnt do that with any other engine but then most others wouldnt have died with fuel pump failure as they will take a little detonation.
BMW V8\'s have been my best road cars, but rotary power has been/is my best track car.
Thanks about the heads up about Tim, I will tell my mate to give him a call.
I sort of agree with you about parts getting more difficult, but looking at Matt\'s build thread on FDUK is inspiring. I can\'t wait to hear it!
I have a lot of respect for you for sticking with the rotary engine for so long, my hats off to you. There is just something about the engine, the high revving free flowing nature of it that just makes it addictive.
Quote from: Spartacus;629594Indeed, mines a pint:guinness. By the way a 240Z would make a lovely home for a LSx:eek:
Lol shhhh... I refuse to pass that information on lol haha
Tim (RX Motors) may have some 20b\'s left, they would work a lot cheaper than that, we bought 4 :)
well if that is the case ya ya please let me know what money he is charging and i might get in contact with him instead
cheers
drop him an email, we bought our last year so not sure what the price would be now as things have gone up.
If you want to do 20b conversion why don\'t you ask the tuners in OZ? I\'m sure it\'ll be cheaper shipping your car over to OZ with all the bits you want to add to the conversion then shipping an engine to the UK. Infact I know it will be cheaper shipping a car to OZ and back. I have been in both V8 and 20b FDs both 500rwhp and must say the V8\'s are much quicker and alas they do sound alike, 20b\'s only sound different when bridged/pp\'d. Also the V8\'s are much more fuel efficient when you are giving it beans or just loitering around. Whether V8\'s should be in an RX7 is another story I am just commenting on sound and power.
Ant what work was done on the car you posted pics of? Whats your email? I want specifics lol. As thats a work of art!
well i have a mechanic in ireland that will do the rebuild and fitting. just if its cheaper to buy a 20b from uk rather than oz. im not sending the car over and back, all the charges i will be hit with i could buy another rx7
Anybody see the TOTB results? :)
Quote from: antnicuk;630366Anybody see the TOTB results? :)
I did!!:mmmm:King
You gonna sell me you car yet phil?
Quote from: antnicuk;630366Anybody see the TOTB results? :)
Nothing for the RX7s to be proud of Tony, V8 or Rotary powered, Rx7s got beat by 3 FWD 4 pot Vauxhall cars in the quarter!
All the Rx7s had issues at TOTB whether it be mechanical or Tyres for grip, its a shame we cant compare Sicknotes Tripple as he had his wastegate problem and producing hardly any boost.
Yes well done for Craig in the handling, it does show his car has good balance and is a good conversion.
Hopefully next year everyone will bring their A Game and have no issues and we can come out near the top in all three disciplines
QuoteAnybody see the TOTB results
well I guess considering the fact Craig is an experienced track driver who also entered Time Attack last year has nothing to do with it? hmmmmmmmm
Quote from: Mims;630116If you want to do 20b conversion why don\'t you ask the tuners in OZ? I\'m sure it\'ll be cheaper shipping your car over to OZ with all the bits you want to add to the conversion then shipping an engine to the UK. Infact I know it will be cheaper shipping a car to OZ and back. I have been in both V8 and 20b FDs both 500rwhp and must say the V8\'s are much quicker and alas they do sound alike, 20b\'s only sound different when bridged/pp\'d. Also the V8\'s are much more fuel efficient when you are giving it beans or just loitering around. Whether V8\'s should be in an RX7 is another story I am just commenting on sound and power.
Ant what work was done on the car you posted pics of? Whats your email? I want specifics lol. As thats a work of art!
I\'m sorry but I refuse to believe a 500rwhp V8 is quicker than a 500rwhp 20B... must have been something wrong with the 20B you went it :Giggle
Quote from: Kash_;630383well I guess considering the fact Craig is an experienced track driver who also entered Time Attack last year has nothing to do with it? hmmmmmmmm
In keeping with the theme of the Thread, Sicknotes 20B wasnt boosting correctly so he had no chance to give Craig a run for his money, and the rest of the 13Bs Col was running very low boost , and Rob was having clutch problems. You could say that is Rotary powered cars all over having issues. But Robbies V8 powered FD didnt even make it and he has been having issues all year. So V8 or Rotary they all have the quirks and problems
If no one had any issues, then yes you can give it the "I told you so" comment of Tonys "Anybody see the TOTB results? :) "
But seeing as the rest of the guys were having problems its a bit unfair for Tony to give that comment :Hammer lol
Quote from: Kash_;630383well I guess considering the fact Craig is an experienced track driver who also entered Time Attack last year has nothing to do with it? hmmmmmmmm
Totally different Craig Kash
Quote from: antnicuk;630377You gonna sell me you car yet phil?
PM sent.
Boy these guys are quick to find excuses, anyone would think us V8 guys take it seriously.:Giggle
Quote from: BlitzBoy;630386But Robbies V8 powered FD didnt even make it and he has been having issues all year. So V8 or Rotary they all have the quirks and problems.
Now to be accurate he hasn\'t touched it all year after loosing interest following the attempted robbery. Then as usual he decides to try and do too much in only a short space of time, (hero that he is).
Quote from: Spartacus;630391Now to be accurate he hasn\'t touched it all year after loosing interest following the attempted robbery. Then as usual he decides to try and do too much in only a short space of time, (hero that he is).
True true he is mental I would have given up on Rx7s years ago with the luck he has had, I need rub some of my car luck onto him, then all you V8 guys can be as quick as me lol :rollin
Quote from: Kash_;630384I\'m sorry but I refuse to believe a 500rwhp V8 is quicker than a 500rwhp 20B... must have been something wrong with the 20B you went it :Giggle
Why can you not believe it? Or is it that you don’t want to believe it?
Surely it all comes down to power to weight and available torque?
I\'m guessing that they must weigh a similar amount (if the 20b was na or the V8 lighter if the 20b was turbo charged), and also guessing that the V8 would have more torque which would be available at much lower revs?
If I\'m wrong with any of this, I’m open to learn, enlighten me.
Quote from: BlitzBoy;630392True true he is mental I would have given up on Rx7s years ago with the luck he has had, I need rub some of my car luck onto him, then all you V8 guys can be as quick as me lol :rollin
But isn\'t there a problem with your car????:wiggle
Nope no problem with my car runs like a swiss watch, but if I want to run quicker then 10.46 I need to run more boost therefore I need a better clutch.
I can still go out and run mid to high 10s now with my current setup, but where is the fun in that? bored now and want to run quicker, so a better clutch is currently on its way so I can increase the boost
Quote from: BlitzBoy;630401Nope no problem with my car runs like a swiss watch, but if I want to run quicker then 10.46 I need to run more boost therefore I need a better clutch.
I can still go out and run mid to high 10s now with my current setup, but where is the fun in that? bored now and want to run quicker, so a better clutch is currently on its way so I can increase the boost
Fair enough, out of interest how does the gearbox and diff cope?
The gearbox has been fine has not been touched, I run a Mazaspeed Powerplant frame to cope with the increased power, solid engine mounts,I run a Kaaz 1.5 way diff for the last 3 years with a diff brace, not really rocket science to get reliable in the drivetrain stakes, hopefully if I do crack 9s it be interesting to see how long the stock box will last.
Also a rotary engine has less moving parts than a piston engine which means less friction, which mean less transmission loss and means quicker acceleration..... :)
Torque isn\'t everything it just gets you moving it\'s HP that builds up speed :Thumbsup!
Quote from: Kash_;630436Also a rotary engine has less moving parts than a piston engine which means less friction, which mean less transmission loss and means quicker acceleration..... :)
Torque isn\'t everything it just gets you moving it\'s HP that builds up speed :Thumbsup!
mmmm no details of power, weight, tyres etc etc in that race though?
Also where are your facts re less friction? Wouldn’t it depend on the size of the moving parts and the amount of friction for each of them? Any facts on this?
I thought transmission losses were gearbox and diff etc, as when you say that a 20b with 500
rwhp would be quicker than a V8 with 500
rwhp does that not negate any transmission losses as they have both been measured at the rear wheels?
Now I would have thought that torque would have been quite important in drag racing as if what you say is correct that "torque is what gets you moving", isn’t that the idea?
I\'m happy to consider hard facts rather than wishful thinking:cheers
Wikipedia ;)
QuoteAll such engines have the potential to improve on the piston engine in the areas of:
Higher power-to-weight ratios.
Mechanical simplicity.
Less vibration.
Sealing system has no revolutions-limit; piston rings fail after the engine\'s revolutions-limit.
While typically larger than the piston of an engine of corresponding capacity, a rotor may perform many strokes per revolution. The ....el produces twelve strokes per revolution of the rotor (four strokes per chamber times three chambers) (although the spindle rotates three times faster than the rotor or three times over the twelve strokes), as opposed to two strokes for each crankshaft rotation of a single-cylinder single acting piston engine.
You don\'t state the fact that at TOTB the v8 rx7 had significantly more power than the other rx7s there though do you? How much was the v8 running? 550 or 600? Or more?
Talking about circuit racing is ridiculous. There are so many factors to take into consideration so it is not a fair comparison of which car is quicker. Straight line is a better indication of which car is quicker.
How much power was Craig running at time attack? And whifbitzs time attack rx7 more often than not was quicker than the v8. Whifbitz was running 1.3 most of the time... if he unleased 1.6 bar he had game over, not to mention he never used race fuel. Pump fuel FTW and he was still quicker.
Anything to manipulate the situation to try and convince rotary owners that a v8 conversion is better!
Pistons are for.... you know how the saying goes ;)
In the video both cars were using slicks, similar weight and V8 had NOS and a bit more power and definately more torque... ;)
It\'s not wishful thinking more like using basic logic.... if there are more moving parts i.e. piston engine there will be more friction :Thumbs-up
http://www.drivingsports.com/site/2008/12/rotary-vs-piston-engine-equivalency/
QuoteA piston engine has to reciprocate, involving wholesale changes of direction and lots of surface area friction, and there is a quite involved valvetrain mechanism to operateâ€"meaning there are hundreds of parts dancing in synchronicity just to make the thing work. Two steps forward, one step back. Volumetrically, however, rotary engines are superstars. Without a valvetrain in the way and while breathing through relatively large ports, rotaries tend to better fill their chambers and thus realize a higher proportion of theoretical capacity. So, while being less efficient per unit of fuel consumed, rotaries generally compensate for it by moving more air/fuel per unit of rated capacity. Another area of consideration is that this good breathing is advantageously used at higher RPMs to yield high horsepower without necessarily high peak torque, so a rotary engine’s torque has a longer lever, so to speak (i.e. mechanical advantage of RPM). This good breathing also takes place over a relatively wide RPM range, so the torque tends to be very linear, which certainly helps drivability.
Torque vs Horsepower :driving
http://ezinearticles.com
QuoteYou\'ve probably heard various racers and engine builders/tuners talk about torque vs HP. Some say "torque is what moves the car", others say HP is all that matters. Well, you\'ll have to put me in the latter camp, because HP is the most important. Torque is how much twisting force you are putting on the drive shaft, typically measured in ft lbs. Horsepower is multiplying this twisting force by RPM (how fast you can keep applying this force).
If we didn\'t have gears, than torque would be more important. That\'s because in any 1 gear, the torque peak is where the car accelerates the quickest, producing the highest Gs. The torque peak can be important for launching the line, but after that HP is all that matters.
To summarize, it is HP through the correct gear ratio which produces best performance. If you are building an engine, you want the highest average HP through the RPM range you will be using.
Quote from: Kash_;630460In the video both cars were using slicks, similar weight and V8 had NOS and a bit more power and definately more torque... ;)
It\'s not wishful thinking more like using basic logic.... if there are more moving parts i.e. piston engine there will be more friction :Thumbs-up
http://www.drivingsports.com/site/2008/12/rotary-vs-piston-engine-equivalency/
Unfortunately where lubricated surface are concerned, basic logic doesn\'t necessarily apply. Friction in dry contact is very dependent on the surface areas and contact forces involved (lots of lightly loaded parts can produce less friction than one highly loaded part for example). When considering lubricated joints even more complexity is added as you start to introduce oil film thickness which has massive effect on your friction.
It is also almost impossible to measure the total friction within an engine so the whole rotary has less friction than a piston engine argument is pretty mute in my eyes.
Rotary 1 - 1 Piston
Volumetrically the rotary is far superior to the piston engine as it is a lot more free flowing, this means that your pumping losses during one engine cycle are less (ie less work/power required to pull/push air in and out of the engine).
Rotary 2 - 1 Piston :Thumbs-up
However, we need to remember that due to the shape of the rotary\'s combustion chamber, it loses a lot of heat energy during combustion, this reduces the thermal efficiency of the combustion process. The result of this is less work/power done by the air/fuel mixture than the same mixture in a piston engine.
Rotary 2 - 2 Piston :(
In my eyes piston and rotary engine are pretty even from a fundamentals point of view. The rotary has some great points going for it and if it can overcome the fundamental thermal efficiency issues it has I feel it can become more successful as a consumer engine. As it is, it would seem that only nutters like us know the joys of driving one :3gears-rh
And the on the whole torque vs power issue. Consider Le Mans for the past 3 yrs where Audi/Peugeot have been running their diesel LMP1 cars under the same power and weight regs as the petrol cars, yet they have been winning quite convincingly.... Part of this is down to fuel efficiency, but if you watch them pulling out of Arnarge in 2nd gear you realise that the extra low down torque helps A LOT! And basic physics tells us that power and torque are very closely linked so I feel dismissing one over the other is a bit silly as they are both as important as each other ;)
^^^ sense at last!
Since, as has previously been pointed out, power is a product of torque (turning force) multiplied by revs...if your engine makes little in the way of torque to begin with, you then have to make it produce that lesser torque value more often to overcome the deficit. This means a high-revving lump with all the disadvantages that brings, such as increased heat, added mechanical strain, etc. Rotary engines suffer from high-rev issues less than piston ones due to their very nature, the lack of reciprocating mass to slow and stop every cycle, the less moving parts that can interace unpleasantly with each other if the timing\'s out, no valve springs to float or bounce, no valves or rods to stretch, etc, etc.
....but even rotaries have a rev limit, so it\'s not like you can just have tiny amounts of torque and make up for it by spinning to infinity (and beyond lol). Nothing works in isolation. Why can\'t we just accept that v8s and rotaries are both excellent power plants, and go about producing the same end result ( a stonking quick car!)in very different ways?
here here, more sense..... ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
as for friction, lol, if you have a measured outcome ie 500 rwhp, then friction and transmission losses have already been taken out leaving 500 rwhp.
For some reason when you get v8 rx7 owners they think their car is far superior as they have a v8 lump in it (not all but most) and they talk trash about the rotary (again some not all).
If the v8 was put in another car I could not care less, but one car it does not belong in is a rotary born car when so many piston guys trash talk the rotary engine.
Regardless of what you say the v8 guys came on here to gloat about the v8 being quicker at TOTB and indirectly rotary bash. They never specified the facts which i stated above.
550 at the wheels you said ant? If his car was not faster than the other rx7s I would burn it, because none of them were anywhere near that power at the wheels.
Let a rotary with similar power race him, lets see who wins.
Again the v8 does NOT belong in the 7. It is not called PX7, it is called Rx7 for a reason.
I kinda agree with you on one score, Raz, I\'ve never seen the point of taking the RX-7\'s unique feature away and sticking in a V8. After all, if all you want is a pretty car with a V8, well...Corvettes have been around a while, quite a few years with various LS engines in, too :3Confused!
I just can\'t see why these "discussions" always end up so heated, guess if we didn\'t all have competitive spirits we wouldn\'t have ended up in the cars we have :rollinI just love cool cars whether they\'ve got V8s, rotaries, whatever. And I don\'t really care if Craig\'s V8 Rex was the fastest at Elvington because, well, just about everyone\'s is faster than mine :mad: :D
Quote from: Nik da Greek;630496And I don\'t really care if Craig\'s V8 Rex was the fastest at Elvington because, well, just about everyone\'s is faster than mine :mad: :D
Not everyones :Hammer
If you think it\'s bad on here, try being an engine designer and turning up to the office with a rotary. Seemingly that joke hasn\'t worn out for my colleagues, even after 2yrs...
okay guys can we get back to what this post was about........ a 20B !!!!!!!
ahhh we all luv a bit of banter life be boring otherwise.
All I know my little 2 rotor is quicker then all the UK Rx7 V8s :rollin
Banter is good, and as long as these discussions don\'t get into name calling, then it does throw up some opportunities for people to learn something.
Those links Kash put up has some great info in them, granted some bits are a little one-sided but the majority is sound theory. Good finds there Kash :Thumbs-up
Kash, your cut and paste from Wikipedia whilst it is impressive does not answer my original questions:
Where is your evidence of the 20b having less friction than a V8?
Why do you think a 20b FD has less transmission losses than a V8 FD when they both theoretically have 500rwhp?
Why you believe a 500rwhp 20b FD would be faster than a 500rwhp V8 FD.
Re your cut and paste from drivingsports.com
It states that “Volumetrically, however, rotary engines are superstars.†I quite agree but can I remind you that the LSx range of engines start at 5.7 litre and go up! (Probably doesn’t mean much to you eh)
Re your cut and paste from ezinearticles
I also fully agree with this however you are completely missing the point, in your previous post you have already stated that hypothetically both the 20b and the V8 have the same 500rwhp so therefore the potential extra torque of the V8 would obviously be advantageous.
I find your post stating that “For some reason when you get v8 rx7 owners they think their car is far superior as they have a v8 lump in it (not all but most) and they talk trash about the rotary (again some not all).†Offensive if directed at me and if not, I have not seen any evidence of it on this forum.
If you are refereeing to the post from antnicuk asking if anyone had seen the results from TOTB, he is not a V8 FD owner (yet;)) but does have experience of both V8 FD’s and 20b FD’s and I believe his post was a direct result of Rzla’s earlier post stating that ant “would lose your money†by betting on Tinker being the fastest RX7 at TOTB (which by the way, he was)
Rzla, I’m not manipulating any situation, just asking for facts from a direct comparison between a V8fd and a 20b FD which I still don’t have. And as for trying to “convince rotary owners that a V8 conversion is betterâ€
All I ever do is recount my experiences and try to make sure that facts are brought to the forefront rather than nonfactual spin.
And as for pistons are for……. I assume you meant to put in “people who want pistons?†in there?
Quite simply I asked for reasons for your views which were backed up by facts (I\'m still waiting) as I am interested and would genuinely like to learn. I have never knocked or criticised rotary engines in any way shape of form (unlike some re V8\'s)
I also believe that should I own the car, I am entitled to do what ever I want to it.
If you hold the view that no one should change any aspect of a car and keep it as it came out of the factory I can respect that. But to criticise another persons modifications when I\'m sure they themselves have modified the car in some way other from what Mazda designed and intended I think is a tad hypocritical, don’t you?
Signing off from this thread.
Quote from: Spartacus;630540I find your post stating that “For some reason when you get v8 rx7 owners they think their car is far superior as they have a v8 lump in it (not all but most) and they talk trash about the rotary (again some not all).†Offensive if directed at me and if not, I have not seen any evidence of it on this forum.
If you are refereeing to the post from antnicuk asking if anyone had seen the results from TOTB, he is not a V8 FD owner (yet;)) but does have experience of both V8 FD’s and 20b FD’s and I believe his post was a direct result of Rzla’s earlier post stating that ant “would lose your money†by betting on Tinker being the fastest RX7 at TOTB (which by the way, he was)
Apologies if you think my post with regards to v8 owners was directed at you, or even other v8 owners on here, it certainly was not. I said some on purpose because I know all are not, like yourself.
With regards to ants comment anyone with an ounce of common sense would know that the v8 would be quickest... why because he had 550whp while the other 7s on show were noway near that power band.
Secondly... read when I said ant would loose his money. Hell I would have bet on the v8 to be fastest, it is not rocket science, he had way more power.
I said if there was a rotary and v8 with the SAME power he would lose his money.
Also it has got nothing to do with modifying cars. It is to do with everything the rx7 stands for. I have stated to you that I like v8s, I am a big fan of the corvette, especially the Z06. I have nothing against pistons. They just don\'t belong in the 7, 8 or 9 when it is produced.
The reason is you are taking the soul of out the car, the purpose it was built for.
Don\'t sign off it is an interesting discussion, there has been no name calling swearing or threats of violence lol. I have read about the problems you have had and I for one don\'t blame you for giving up. However the more people that get v8 rx7s the bigger the risk of the rotary dying and not progressing here and it is not exactly a big scene in the UK, unlike America, PR or Australia.
Raz, if you dont pack it in i\'m gonna come round your house one night and stick a rover V8 in your Rex, now that is sacralidge :)
Sicknotes car was supposed to be 600 bhp acccording to normski when he had it put together by pip. so i spose on paper it should have been a good contender, shame we didnt get to see it run properly.
Blitz, what do you reckon your car would run at elvindon with the same suspension and tyres tinkers car had, do reckon it would be quicker?, what power are you running?
Crain Winstanly had that car before Sicknote and also had a V8 FD which he raced in time attack, and he chose to sell the 20b not the V8. It would be interesting to hear his thoughts on the matter.
On a different note did you notice that some of the quicker cars were all kit cars :) thats the way forward, just be prepared to get wet :(
I was gutted i couldnt make TOTB as my little rotary rocket would have made people look twice. I have already run 11.7 on road tyres with 70 less hp , less torque and a slippy clutch. But 70 hp increase in my car is the equivalent of 120 - 130 hp increase in an FD. The handling circuit would have been pure fun :) I think i would have lost out on the top speed due to aero\'s and bits falling off the car but i would have given it ago. I managed 117 on the 1/4 on the old set up....
Lol don\'t sell my soul lol.
It is just my opinion.. does not mean it\'s correct or gospel!
It would be good to see your pocket rocket in the flesh ant! Very impressive times!
Arrrrrgggggg, cant believe I\'m going to become part of hijacking this poor guys thread :xconfused
I have heard the Torque vs Horsepower argument nearly all my life but there\'s another as well "there ain\'t no substitute for cubes" !
How about this little consideration,
If your going to put a V8 in an FD its probably going to be a 5000cc or 7000cc and if its a rotary its going to be 1300cc or 1950cc if it\'s a triple and yet all configurations can give the same power :3gears-lh.
Now using the "there ain\'t no substitute for cubes" argument , imagine if we had a 7000cc Rotary !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! don\'t think there would be much argument then do you :chat
All in all the fact that this argument is even considered with such wildly different cubic capacity\'s shows what a fantastic engine the Rotary is due to the power the little thing can produce :D
Quote from: antnicuk;630635.
Blitz, what do you reckon your car would run at elvindon with the same suspension and tyres tinkers car had, do reckon it would be quicker?, what power are you running?
....
I already know I would be quicker :Hammer
lol :cheers Tony I have already run at Elvington at Totb with my car 2006 with the To4r and street port running WI and 1.3 bar was pushing approx 440rwhp,that was with Tein hard suspension and Falken 452 street tyres
I ran a 11.39 @ 126
Terminal speed does not lie in how much power you are producing regardless how bad the launch is or grip this is a true Fact. I would have expected Craigs terminals to be in the 130s if he is producing a true 550rwhp
Quote from: antnicuk;630635Crain Winstanly had that car before Sicknote and also had a V8 FD which he raced in time attack, and he chose to sell the 20b not the V8. It would be interesting to hear his thoughts on the matter.
If you look on Piston Heads he is selling the V8 too
Quote from: mattfduk;631029If you look on Piston Heads he is selling the V8 too
Can\'t see it? Link?
http://www.pistonheads.com/SALES/1112759.htm
Quote from: Mims;631119Can\'t see it? Link?
You should buy it...
Would rather TT my V10
hi guys i wasnt going to chip in and ruin this 20b thread but. since when did any "v8" fd owner say there cars were better or faster most of us build them because we like the cars and the engines or want to keep the fd and dont want to rebuild again, i havent once said "i was the fastest at totb" (even thouhg i was ),my car is a road car not strip or circuit its a road car that i do all sorts in, work and back kids to school etc. had i tried drag tyre like a couple of chaps at totb it might of been quicker,( or had not run all day with 38-40psi in the tyres,forgot to set them !!!!), mine was 98db on the day. i have driven and worked on the green triple and its a fast car no dought, i drove it when craig win had it, when it comes on boost it flys but does not have the grunt of mine. on a fast open track there would not be much in it (craig wins words he had both at the same track on the same day) but the v8 is easier to drive and on smaller tracks ie totb where you can use one or two gears and use the spead of power . what is the real price of a 20b ? and how much to run one ? craig used to use three times the fuel in the 20b to the v8 !!! there is no denyning that a 20b does sound very special. my name is down for next years totb so who else is up for it , all three disiplines !! ive saved 9 mazdas so far does it matter what pushes it along :)
Quote from: tinker-27;633919hi guys i wasnt going to chip in and ruin this 20b thread but. since when did any "v8" fd owner say there cars were better or faster most of us build them because we like the cars and the engines or want to keep the fd and dont want to rebuild again, i havent once said "i was the fastest at totb" (even thouhg i was ),my car is a road car not strip or circuit its a road car that i do all sorts in, work and back kids to school etc. had i tried drag tyre like a couple of chaps at totb it might of been quicker,( or had not run all day with 38-40psi in the tyres,forgot to set them !!!!), mine was 98db on the day. i have driven and worked on the green triple and its a fast car no dought, i drove it when craig win had it, when it comes on boost it flys but does not have the grunt of mine. on a fast open track there would not be much in it (craig wins words he had both at the same track on the same day) but the v8 is easier to drive and on smaller tracks ie totb where you can use one or two gears and use the spead of power . what is the real price of a 20b ? and how much to run one ? craig used to use three times the fuel in the 20b to the v8 !!! there is no denyning that a 20b does sound very special. my name is down for next years totb so who else is up for it , all three disiplines !! ive saved 9 mazdas so far does it matter what pushes it along :)
hear hear. totb = car killer!
Quote from: tinker-27;633919hi guys i wasnt going to chip in and ruin this 20b thread but. since when did any "v8" fd owner say there cars were better or faster most of us build them because we like the cars and the engines or want to keep the fd and dont want to rebuild again, i havent once said "i was the fastest at totb" (even thouhg i was ),my car is a road car not strip or circuit its a road car that i do all sorts in, work and back kids to school etc. had i tried drag tyre like a couple of chaps at totb it might of been quicker,( or had not run all day with 38-40psi in the tyres,forgot to set them !!!!), mine was 98db on the day. i have driven and worked on the green triple and its a fast car no dought, i drove it when craig win had it, when it comes on boost it flys but does not have the grunt of mine. on a fast open track there would not be much in it (craig wins words he had both at the same track on the same day) but the v8 is easier to drive and on smaller tracks ie totb where you can use one or two gears and use the spead of power . what is the real price of a 20b ? and how much to run one ? craig used to use three times the fuel in the 20b to the v8 !!! there is no denyning that a 20b does sound very special. my name is down for next years totb so who else is up for it , all three disiplines !! ive saved 9 mazdas so far does it matter what pushes it along :)
when are you going to TT your v8? go on you know you want to! lol
i have thought about it but heat is a big problem !, and i think it would loose some of its drivability
hmmm.. don\'t think you will be able to unleash all its fury on uk roads either.