Mazda Rotary Club

 Hi all I hope you can help.
  For quite a while now I have been experiencing a strange quirk when cornering.  When I decelerate into a corner the front wheels seem to suddenly steer further than I was expecting. This did not happen for the first year I was driving it! To help cure this I have got new tyres all round, a new bush kit in the front and new sway bar bushes. None of these seem to have helped. Today I decide to throw the ‘7 along a winding country road to see how it performed and nearly wet myself when it tried oversteer on every corner on deceleration. (oncoming lorries make this especially intresting). Is this normal. As I said before, this wasn’t happening when I first had it.
 
  Cheers
 
  jason

which diff do you have? it may be an aftermarket one causing that

My thoughts exactly - a 2 way would easily cause this.

Also, have you ever had the car aligned?

Damn....I was going to suggest this too!
 
I would suspect diff over alignment, but re-reading what you\'ve said....I think you would have noticed changing the diff!
 
Are you able to check the bushes on the rear?? If one of those has collapsed it would display this problem. Either that or do you have the rake of the car at a major extreme??
 
What dampers are you running?
 
When you had the bushes at the front fitted who did the suspension alignment?  It could be a castor issue....which would occur if the camber alignment on the front arent set equally.  What are the tyres wearing like?

thanks for the replies.
Diff? As far as I know it is the factory original.
Dampers? I have no idea (factory?)
The old tyres were worn equally.
Bushes were replaced br ReWorx.
Anti roll bar rubbers were replaced by a local garage.
I haven\'t had the rear bushes done yet as I couldn\'t afford it at the same time as the front!
My dad has suggested that the tow-in could be out. Does this seem a posible cause?

I\'m going to call ReWorx today and see what they suggest!

thanks again and please continue with your ideas.

I\'ve always had the same problem and just kinda got used to it as couldn\'t find anything wrong myself, so will look forward to seeing the suggestions also...

Does it do it while you’re braking or when you start to steer into the corner? And if so is it left handers, right handers or both?

Jas comment:- When I decelerate into a corner the front wheels seem to suddenly steer further than I was expecting.
 
Personally mine does it when you take you\'re foot off the throttle too and it\'s like you\'ve turned the steering wheel again but not if you get me.... Mine doesn\'t change under braking, it\'s just always like this

Quote from: SmbFD3S;620208Jas comment:- When I decelerate into a corner the front wheels seem to suddenly steer further than I was expecting.
 
Personally mine does it when you take you\'re foot off the throttle too and it\'s like you\'ve turned the steering wheel again but not if you get me.... Mine doesn\'t change under braking, it\'s just always like this

Left and right bends?

Quote from: jas_hall;620201I haven\'t had the rear bushes done yet as I couldn\'t afford it at the same time as the front!

I\'d go with the bushes on the toe control arms. Or replace the arms with some that have solid bushes, usually cheaper than swapping the bush.

Quote from: Kieron;620210I\'d go with the bushes on the toe control arms. Or replace the arms with some that have solid bushes, usually cheaper than swapping the bush.

That should be easy to see, just jack the rear up and waggle the wheels.

Yep on mine left or right bends, it dont matter it\'s the same...
 
Could actually be the toe control arms, will have a play around tonight maybe..

I\'ll swap my diff for yours! :D

Sure its not just lift off over steer? If you lift off the throttle weight transferes to the front making the back end light causing it to over steer.

Quote from: pigeon;620257Sure its not just lift off over steer? If you lift off the throttle weight transferes to the front making the back end light causing it to over steer.

Thats why I was wondering if the deceleration was being done before the turn in for the corner.

Quote from: pigeon;620257Sure its not just lift off over steer? If you lift off the throttle weight transferes to the front making the back end light causing it to over steer.

That was my thoughts, just a case of enthusiastic driving in a RWD car?

I\'m in the lift off oversteer camp as well.  OP\'s post wording made me think he was decelerating while in the bend, in which case I\'d absolutely expect oversteer if he lifted off, particularly if he was in a low gear due to to the engine braking slowing the car more agressively and throwing the weight forward harder.
 
The answer, simple and free.  Do your braking BEFORE you start to turn :)

Lol i just put it down to the geometry of the Rex, i have 2 other rear wheel drive cars and it\'s not quite as severe as on the RX.  I quite like it to be honest :D

Quote from: Aubec;620275I\'m in the lift off oversteer camp as well. OP\'s post wording made me think he was decelerating while in the bend, in which case I\'d absolutely expect oversteer if he lifted off, particularly if he was in a low gear due to to the engine braking slowing the car more agressively and throwing the weight forward harder.
 
The answer, simple and free. Do your braking BEFORE you start to turn :)

That isn\'t always true...braking mid corner is a perfectly acceptable option...providing you have practised away from the road!
 
Granted braking should be in theory all done and dusted prior to the bend...but this is a real world scenario, and you cant always anticipate what is happening around every bend.  Some tighten up on you or change direction, so it is better to learn how to avoid ending up in a ditch by braking mid corner....Just to keep Nik happy....this doesn\'t really work on bikes that well, as all you do is stand the bloody thing up and head towards the hedge even faster!
 
I don\'t think it is lift-off oversteer, not unless the OP is driving very badly in every bend.  Also LOO will have you turning in circles quicker than you will be able to catch.
 
I\'m of the opinion the rear bushes are screwed...but also that the front camber hasn\'t been set correctly.

do FD\'s have the passive 4 wheel steering? I find my FC turns in a lot more than i expect due to the rear steer bushes beeing knackered. Im usually done slowing down by the time i hit the corners though so i don\'t get the oversteer

Hi all, it’s me again! – Thanks for all the interest.
       

Quote from: SmbFD3S;620208Personally mine does it when you take you\'re foot off the throttle too and it\'s like you\'ve turned the steering wheel again but not if you get me.... Mine doesn\'t change under braking, it\'s just always like this

This is EXACTLY what happens to me!!! It’s as if the car gives a little twitch further round than I was expecting.
       

Quote from: Spartacus;620206Does it do it while you’re braking or when you start to steer into the corner? And if so is it left handers, right handers or both?

Not under braking, when I decelerate. (see above) and it’s both left and right turns. If I take my hands off the wheel on a straight road and brake, the car stays as straight as a ruler.
 
 

Quote from: pigeon;620257Sure it’s not just lift off over steer? If you lift off the throttle weight transferes to the front making the back end light causing it to over steer.

and
 

Quote from: Spartacus;620258That’s why I was wondering if the deceleration was being done before the turn in for the corner.

  It could be over steer. It doesn’t happen if I brake or decelerate BEFORE the bend only if decelerate during a bend.
 
  This doesn’t happen on proper corners(roundabouts, left, right turns etc) only on the normal bends and twists you get on a normal road which you wouldn’t brake for but you might ease off the throttle because of traffic etc. This is why it always comes as a shock. I don’t’ analyse my driving whilst I’m driving (does anyone) so I don’t think of decelerating, braking etc. until it’s happened.
 
  I had better clarify what I mean by decelerating:
  I am referring to “lifting off the throttle” and NOT applying the brakes.
  I hope I have not misled anyone by using the wrong terminology. (my apologies if this is the case)
 
  ReWorx have suggested that this sounds like the rear bushes causing the back end to steer. They say that I may be able to check this by jacking my rear up (or preferably the cars) and with the engine running and the hand brake on, putting the car in to drive (I’m an auto, sorry) and seeing if the wheels twitch! Unfortunately I am going to have to try to find a neighbour a with level drive as I live in a very hilly area.
 
  I shall keep you informed.
 
  Cheers
 
  Jason

Sounds even more like lift off over steer to me then. As its happening as you lift off the throttle mid corner. Like i explained if you lift off mid corner you transfer weight to the front making the back end light.
 
Adam

If it was every now and then, I would whole-heartedly agree with you....but if it is happening in every bend...there must be a fault somewhere in the system.
 
So in my eyes there are possibly 2 main causes:
1. The bushes.
2. The driver.
 
Without wishing to go into a lecture of how to drive...get your braking done prior to the bend, and then you should be either on a neutral or positive throttle throughout the bend.

im going with rear bushes if it duz it a little on a straight when lifting off the gas as well.

Iv had one car that had a compleatly collapsed rear bush and on acceleration it used to pull one way and decel it would pull the other in a straight line.

Quote from: AtomicRex;620183What dampers are you running?

Knackered dampers would cause this.  Mine were totally useless, essentially running just springs.  Even changing lane would give a disconnected feeling between the front and rear of the car.

To be honest i think this getting a little over complicated - if it feels to be tucking into a corner more when you lift off the throttle then it sounds exactly like the rear toe-in is changing - and the only normal thing that can casue that would be worn rear bushes (either the rubber ones on the links, or a pillow ball). Probably the toe-control arm but maybe another one of the arms. Needs to checked to locate the ones - By the sounds of it a number of rear bushes are shot as it is occuring on left and right bends. A busted damper will make it feel horrible under power and brakes as well - even in a straight line.

HI all. Just got back from ReWorx. They had a good drive around and a check and have discovered that the rear bushes are worn but not very badly. However, they do say that the shocks all round are very bad and replacing them would make a big difference. They also suggested getting the four wheel alignment sorted first of all and take it from there. I think that the rear driver’s side brake is binding as well. Also, the diff seals are leaking and although that wouldn’t effect the handling, it still needs sorting. (ouch! Lottery grant anyone?).
  I shall keep you informed.

Jason

Quote from: jas_hall;622871HI all. Just got back from ReWorx. They had a good drive around and a check and have discovered that the rear bushes are worn but not very badly. However, they do say that the shocks all round are very bad and replacing them would make a big difference. They also suggested getting the four wheel alignment sorted first of all and take it from there. I think that the rear driver’s side brake is binding as well. Also, the diff seals are leaking and although that wouldn’t effect the handling, it still needs sorting. (ouch! Lottery grant anyone?).
  I shall keep you informed.

Jason

Dif seals and shocks were amongst hte first things I had to get sorted on one way back!  Not uncommon really.

mine did this and was quite unsettled. so much so it made hardened rx owners sweat behind the wheel :p


Collapsed engine mount and worn diff mounts were the cause of the harsh movement causing the loss of traction and edgy feeling.

full 4 wheel alignment to top it off and get that planted feel :)

I agree with AtomicRex, rear bushes. In particular the toe arm ones. The reason I say this is because mine did the same until I changed them last week.

agree, almost certainly rear bushes. Something playing with the rear geometry anyway.

knackered shocks will show themselves everywhere, as will springs. I\'m sure even my dear old mum could tell a knackered shocker before the end of the road..

S.