I\'m trying to weigh up the cost of getting the Atomic Rex Cage installed over the winter months and I\'m trying my best to work out what the overall cost would be.
I want it to be full detrim inside the car without original dash when back up and running.
Up to now I\'ve got :
Costs :
Cage - 1200, but not sure how much it is to remove the windscreen.
Pedal box - could I use original unit until larger brakes are fitted, possibly keeping abs initially.
Bucket Seats - 700, want some OMP RS buckets
Belts - 150
Heated Windscreen - ??
Haltech ECU and Digital Dash - 1200ish
Respray internally & externally - ???
Sellable bits:
Interior - ??
Dash - ???
original seats - ???
Apexi PFC - ???
orginal Windscreen - ???
I\'d be doing as much of the spanner work myself in removing the interior, the engine (does it include drive train ?) and the fuel tank.
Still an idea at the minute so no dibbs on the sellable bits just yet. How much am I missing from the cost list too ???
Shaun
Would you need a custom loom to run the Haltech?
Probably ! I think there is a patch lead coming soon for the FD (unless its here already) that will be about 150 approx !
Also would need to completely rewire the interior. Would probably go with http://www.cbsonline.co.uk/cbs-wiring-module-wrmod-1185-p.asp for indicators and horn system. Would still use the original barrel lock as ignition.
Shaun
I would make a small dash panel myself out of aluminium so that wouldn\'t be too silly cost !
Shaun
may be an idea to ask most of these questions directly to Jon at AtomicRex as he can prob answer most your queries straight away.
Ive been thinking up ideas for my next FD project and was planning to do alot of trackdays and so was gonna see Jon about getting a cage, was thinking of still using the original dash but cutting bits out if i need to for the cage, then flock the dash. Also was interested in a heated windscreen so i can get rid of all the heating system. I think they were around £200.
Was hoping jon would see this thread :Giggle
How much is removal and installation of the windscreen. Is it bonded ????
Shaun
Shaun,
What are you going to use the car for?
Have you made any decisions on what type of cage to go for?
S.
I\'m looking at doing more trackdays and possibly nippon challenge if I could fund it !
Feel it would be cool actually having a proper track setup because the roads round me are always full and it means I don\'t really use the car enough. Looking at jons cage it has the most security and is FIA approved so I can get involved in local motorsport too.
It is a weekend car so making it completely stripped out wouldn\'t be an issue. Would keep it road legal too :D
Shaun
You don\'t need FIA certification for local motorsport, it just needs to meet the MSA Blue Book requirements for the UK. All the leading providers will meet that criteria.
If you\'re looking for track use then the best advice I can give you is that the cage and the shell are the foundation of everything else that gets bolted on so it\'s worth doing it properly.
What spec is Jons? Are you after weld in multipoint? T45?
S.
Shaun, I think you are spending too much on seats for one thing. There are plenty of good quality, lightweigth seats availble for a lot less. You can cut the standard dash to fit a cage - Mine is a standard dash cut and flocked. Pedal box is a personal choice. I ran standrd rears, 6 pot fronts last year on the standard pedal box with the ABS removed, and the servo vac pipe disconnected. I\'ve now got a new pedal box but that is because the brakes have become more serious, as has the power.
when I get my car back from the workshop and it is at home you could pop over - preston isn\'t far from me, and I can make you a few cups of tea and we can go through my car and chat about how you can get yours build up for track/racing without having to spend a fortune. Or I\'ll be down at Rotorstock with it.
Cool, cheers Tony :D It will probably be rotorstock :D
Just weighing my options up at the minute. The cost of the seats is more down to having a pair of OMP RS and mounts. I tried quite a few at demon tweeks last when I was buying some gauges and that was the one I was comfortable in. Bit on the chubby side :Giggle
If I was going to weld a cage in then I\'d definately want somthing proper. Don\'t want to do it more than once ! Dove love the look of jons cage.
May even be a case of trailing it by stripping the whole interior out bar the dash and fitting the buckets. The car is complete at the minute !
I\'m going to cadwell at the end of the week and should definately be at rotorstock.
I\'d love to do more track days and the single turbo does really scream out for more protection !
Shaun
jons cage is a weld in multipoint CDS cage.
http://www.mazdarotaryclub.com/forums/showthread.php?t=44648
Shaun
Hi Shaun,
I\'m at Cadwell this coming weekend (Saturday avo onwards) if you want to nose round my RX.
More later - early start in the morning..
S.
wiring wise you can just take out what is no longer needed i dont think there is a need to rewire the whole car when the wiring is already there and the japs use small light stuff anyway,my car has whatever is not required from the standard looms removed(well most of it just behind the dash left to do!).also makes for easier fault finding
Quote from: shaunwil;618505Was hoping jon would see this thread :Giggle
How much is removal and installation of the windscreen. Is it bonded ????
Shaun
Sorry was away for the weekend!
I do have some weld in cages in stock at the moment, so you really need to give me a call about these.
To clear up about the T45 phenomena that is sweeping the nation at the moment....dont bother!
I looked into T45 cages and quickly dismissed them as it is a complete waste of money!
All of the cages, and ours is no different, are designed to comply with the Blue Book. If you follow the exact measurements, ie wall thickness and tubing size in the key areas such as the roll-over hoop and the A pillars then the cage will be eligible for any race within the UK, depending on the regs you have chosen to follow. If you make sure it follows the guidelines laid down by the FIA it will be eligible for racing internationally.
So...the reason for using T45 is because the tubing doesn\'t need to be as thick. But if you don\'t make it as thick you wont comply with the blue book, as there are no exclusions for different types of tubing used. So basically you are wasting money!
The only way to make it work is to pay someone to design the cage, to take advantage of the T45 tubing, and then take it to MIRA where they will virtually crash the car with new cage and Homologate the cage on it passing the test. This will cost in the region of £2000...and to be honest the weight saving wasn\'t that great....so I didn\'t bother.
Shaun,
I have all of the parts you need for the car, but as Tony says...there really is no need to go for the more expensive seats. I have a set of Corbeau\'s with Luke Harnesses in stock you could use...they are absolutely fantastic seats. The wiring loom I can make for you, but if you call me, we can point you towards a different ECU that we have found and are going to be running in our own cars.
Give me a ring and I will chat to you about stuff :)
Shaun,
More thoughts..
I kept the original dash, just had it flocked with carbon sheets for switching where the centre console used to be. Looks pretty good I think.
A tricky roll cage will be limited if you are performing no shell prep. Path of least resistence and all that, so do seam weld if you go to a full multipoint otherwise you will suffer from a degree of shell flex hampering performance. You want all the movement directed into the controllable components as a guide.
Just think it through holistically if that makes sense - shell/cage/bushing/suspension/tyres. Make everything fit the bill.
As an example I once watched a Jag racer (bit of a Herbert) go and spend over a grand a corner on wonderful tricky dampers. I wanted him corner in the car and could see the shell flexing. Afterwards I talked to him in the paddock and he was complaining that he could make them full soft or full hard and not tell the difference. No sh*t sherlock..
For cage development I would look at Custom Cages, and if you want a work of art from previous World Champions talk to Gartrac in Chiddingfold. Their labour rates are less than you\'d think too (less indeed than many \'specialists\').
Depends on location of course.
Looms are the devils work as far as I\'m concerned, it\'s the one thing we don\'t touch (unless it failed as we\'ve had). IMO too high a risk of introducing unreliability unless you\'re paying a shed load (and even then if it\'s not done properly), so stick to the original and rip out what you don\'t need?
Must go.
S.
Shaun,
T45 cages are perfectly legal for both MSA and FIA use, and the cages have been homologated properly by the suppliers before sale to you.. You can buy Custom Cages cages in kit form and have them installed by a preparer, it\'s very common. Alternatively they will install themselves in either CDS or T45.
It\'s not a fad, it\'s been in serious motorsport for years. They save significant weight and weight which of course is high up and thus increases the lever arm. Other alloys are now also around I believe, again perfectly legal if you\'re having a pro install.
Talk to a pro cage manufacturer.
There are arguments against T45, but being inherently illegal isn\'t one of them.
S.
Tony runs a standard dash, and we run a carbon replica. It is a fraction of the weight and looks identical in shape. It is a personal opinion and depends on how far you want to take your weight saving exploits!
All of our shells are seem welded, as Stacey rightly says, suspension needs to work against a solid platform. There is no point in having flex within the chassis, as this wont allow you to set up the suspension and obtain reliable feedback. Likewise we are developing a new ARB, this will be using different mounts as the mounts on the standard car are chocolate...and will introduce flex thus not allowing the ARB to do its job correctly.
I disagree with you Stacey about needing to go to Custom Cages. Our cage is a hybrid and works very well...come and see it if you are in any doubt. Bill at Gartrac is fantastic, although if you think their rates are cheap.....:0....Id hate to see what you think is acceptable! Bill fitted a bespoke cage to my Atom, and the quality of the work was amazing! We have had a good number of happy cage customers now...so come and see it :)
I also disagree with you about the loom too. It isn\'t the devils work, they are very easy. I have fitted a complete new loom to all my cars, and they have worked first time, and apart from an indicator bulb that had blown, without fault. If you were running the Apexi ECU then keeping the existing engine loom and ripping out the unnecessary stuff would be fine....then building a chassis loom.
My looms come with markers at both ends and in the middle to identify the wire in a hurry. They are correctly matched to the current draw on the item....fuel pumps for instance. They use motorsport fuses, that can be instantly reset if they blow (spikes can cause a blade fuse to blow, but the item will be fine to continue)
I have never had a custom loom fail, and it gives you piece of mind that you know it will work as it is meant to.
Quote from: stacy;618671Shaun,
T45 cages are perfectly legal for both MSA and FIA use, and the cages have been homologated properly by the suppliers before sale to you.. You can buy Custom Cages cages in kit form and have them installed by a preparer, it\'s very common. Alternatively they will install themselves in either CDS or T45.
It\'s not a fad, it\'s been in serious motorsport for years. They save significant weight and weight which of course is high up and thus increases the lever arm. Other alloys are now also around I believe, again perfectly legal if you\'re having a pro install.
Talk to a pro cage manufacturer.
There are arguments against T45, but being inherently illegal isn\'t one of them.
S.
I never said that the cage was illegal.
Unless the design has been specifically designed for the particular car...then it will need to follow the exact design laid out within the Blue book. No one has designed a cage for the Rx7 that has been to MIRA and subsequently tested for homologation. To fit a cage made from T45 would therefore be a waste of money...as it is basically the same in everyway apart from material of the CDS cage. there is no weight saving benefit...the only thing you gain is added strength as the extra thick tube made from T45 will be stronger than its CDS counterpart. However being the CDS cage is already strong enough...what is point???
By the way...this comes direct from Custom Cages...If you had seen some of the parts we have developed....you would know I don\'t skimp on spending the cash unless unnecessary. I spent ages with Custom Cages talking about this, and considered having my own cage made.....but stuck with the standard one.
Cheers guys ! Some wonderful information.
The idea at the minute is to get most of summer over, save up some cash and get it done over the colder months.
Looking at jons rates he would be the guy fitting the cage into the car :D
I\'m probably going to go back to tweeks and sit in all their display seats again before making the seat decision.
I suppose another question would be can I run a digital dash with the Apexi PFC ?? Although if I kept the standard dash then I would keep the FD Dash bits too :D
On the dash front, how much can I take out under there ? I still have the aircon system under there !
Maybe the cage isn\'t the first step. I might start removing interior weight first and take it from there ! I\'ll have to get it weighed at every step :)
I\'m happy enough to do any wiring myself. Doesn\'t really worry me too much. Probably if it was a complete lighting loom would be controlling the up and down of the headlights !
Cheers
Shaun
Depends on what you want to get from the digital dash??
The system we are putting together at the moment for our own cars runs on CAN. It allows the ECU, the dash and even the wiring loom all to talk to each other, and react to known scenarios.
I have my old digital dash here (http://mazdarotaryclub.com/forums/showthread.php?t=49994) for sale at the moment...I used this in conjunction with an Apexi PFC with good success :)
Your best bet is to strip the car and all of its sound deadening....and then get the seam welding and cage in place. That way you can start building around it.
If you are planning to rewire the car then strip everything from under the dash...nothing under there is needed...then get Sophie (ChrisRx7 better half) to flock your dash for you.
The screen is bonded into place....best you do that last, as less chance of it getting broken!
Hi,
Gartrac charged me £35-£40 an hour for work they\'ve undertaken, which seemed to me to be a lot less than many others I have experience of. It was a work of art too, as well as being very open about why they do things.
I hadn\'t realised you were flogging your own cage design, apologies, doing you out of business wasn\'t my intent. I would say though that while you haven\'t homologated your design with T45 that doesn\'t mean others haven\'t done so, so a comparison across multiple providers would do no harm. Custom Cages have increased in cost recently, but they will sell the kit direct, and I have had zero bad feedback from the dozen or so active (& winning) racers I know who run them. Worth investigation.
If your loom is a proper design (eg; doesn\'t stop the ECU when an indicator fuses), properly rated (no nuclear fuses/wires to burn your hand even when it doesn\'t blow..), properly labelled (priceless when dealing with problems in the field..) and properly installed (and it sounds like it is) then you have my respect. I still maintain though that automotive electrics is not a subject which comes naturally to humans, so would contend you are still "one of the few".. ;-)
S.
Hi,
As there seemed to be a danger that I was living in some parallel world, had completely the wrong end of the stick, and was vigorously waving it around (it does happen), I have just called Custom Cages.
They advised me that their FD RX7 cage comes with the same certification in either CDS or T45 for MSA approval, and the T45 cage is c10kg lighter.
Cheers
S.
If the cage is only to MSA approval then it will be a lot lighter since the cage wont be as complex. I dont personally see a point in limiting yourself to MSA only, as they are a law to themselves and could suggest that FIA is the way forward! Plus the resale value of the car decreases as you are limiting the series that these cars can run in.
The cage in my Orange car was installed by Custom Cages, and the cages we have installed in our customer cars have been from Custom Cages too! They are a very good cage, we have made a few changes however...using another company more local called Caged. They do the cages for the cars such as the Lotus two-eleven, and build the chassis for caterham.
Blimey, this could run and run..
The cage they offer is the same - CDS or T45. I refer to their diagram.
The vast majority of cages used in the UK today meet MSA criteria. You are not restricting your use unless you intent to run in FIA only events which require FIA paperwork - perhaps Historic Appendix K (but the FD is not eligible anyway).
Events abroad are usually run to MSA standards, and I have in fact run my RX7 (with an MSA cage) in FIA events, to FIA regulations, and fully complied.. I also have an Appendix K Lotus Cortina with papers eligible for a European series.
Again, unless you are fully (for example) Appendix K compliant and competing in historic events I am not aware of any increase in resale value in this context. Indeed a well known brand might be argued to be a safer bet than a bespoke cage from a less well known provider - regardless of how good the work is.
Look, I have no axe to grind here and didn\'t wish to antagonise you - I am just trying to point out some things which to the uninitiated might prove to be misunderstood.
S.
Hey Stacy,
I wasn\'t spoiling for a fight in anyway...just enjoying the discussion :)
Wow I\'m away for the afternoon and a mad conversation ensues :Giggle
I\'m off this week so with my head in the air about it I\'ve just got back from tweeks and I\'ve ordered a Sparco Sprint 5 http://www.sparcousa.com/pseats_comp.asp?id=622 Its a side or base mount so I\'ll laser some adapters out of 3mm mild steel and get it fit.
It was the only one that felt really nice and wasn\'t huge. Looked very small compared to all the other seats on display. Plus it was the cheapest :D They didn\'t have the colour I wanted instock so they chucked in free postage so worked out good value :D
Going to get it fit and then work out harness positions for it :D
Shaun
Well lucky Shaun you dont want to enter a Drag Series because neither cages being talked about in your thread are legal for a Drag racing series lol
Be great if you do enter the Nippon, that would make 3 Rx7s in the series.
surely it\'s easier to install an inflatable cage??? Just velcro it to the carpet and zip tie to sunvisors, and you\'re there already. In the event of an accident, there is even a nice soft bit to hit your head on!!
lol, very much demolition man then !
The nippon would be some serious time off. would be the slowest of the 3 FD\'s :Giggle
Shaun
Quote from: BlitzBoy;618851Well lucky Shaun you dont want to enter a Drag Series because neither cages being talked about in your thread are legal for a Drag racing series lol
Be great if you do enter the Nippon, that would make 3 Rx7s in the series.
Have you had any luck finding somebody to build you a cage ?? Surely you could buy blueprints from USA ?
Shaun
Installed seat yesterday using some custom 3mm Steel brackets on the standard rails bolting onto the side of the seats. A little too high for my liking so will be making some mods to them in the new few weeks after rotorstock.
Seats actually fit nice in the drivers side without touching any of the interior.
Next plan is to do the mods then order a 2nd seat and then start stripping the interior out over a month or two to see what it feels like.
Shaun
Quote from: shaunwil;618878Have you had any luck finding somebody to build you a cage ?? Surely you could buy blueprints from USA ?
Shaun
Andy Robinson Racecars will be installing my SFI spec cage
Cool, what spec are you going to be getting ??
Shaun
is 3mm wide enough??
Shaun have you sorted yourself with the cage yet??
Quote from: shaunwil;623110Cool, what spec are you going to be getting ??
Shaun
its going to be SFI Teched & speced to 8.5 seconds
Quote from: AtomicRex;623111is 3mm wide enough??
Shaun have you sorted yourself with the cage yet??
The standard ones are 3mm steel and 6mm Alloy and they are definitely meaty !
I\'m still investigating. Hope you complete your challenge so I can have a proper gander and hopefully a sit in your car ! Insurance will be another challenge in the mix !
Shaun