Mazda Rotary Club

Hi

I am just about to change all my disks to grooved and grilled ones provided by Speedline on this site (should arrive in about a week)

I probably should change to new pads.  The car produces around 350 BHP but does not go on track

What would you recommend for stock breaking system for my FD?

Is Hawk any good and who can supply does?  I hear that some pads leave a bit of ‘dust’ on the disks…

Regards,
Michaelb

I have the Hawk HP pads matched to brake discs from speedline imports and they work really well and stop my car pretty quick.  Mines running around 430bhp on single turbo.  They do create a bit of dust but i think its worth the sacrifice for the stopping power.  I got mine from rx7store.net in the US, i know mazdarotaryparts sell them over here but not sure who else

also while you are changing the rest would be a good idea to do a brake fluid change if it has not been done for a while

I\'m running grooved fronts (having had a major failure of drilled I wouldn\'t go that route again) with Hawk HT10 front, HP+ rear.

Gives very good balance and will be good for track work - matched with braided hoses and uprated fluid I\'ve never had a hint of fade even on runway days with 170 down to 50 breaking (it was this extreme breaking that killed the drilled disks).

Chris

Many thanks for your input; break fluid change is an excellent idea, I had a look at the hawk pads - so much more than standard - are they really worth buying for fast road driving?

Regards,
Michaelb


Iaint

Apparently I have been told that if the holes are too close to the edge then the drilled disks can break

Incidentally what’s hp pads like, how much do they cost and where can I buy them from?

Regards,
Michaelb

Quote from: michaelb;616354Chris

Many thanks for your input; break fluid change is an excellent idea, I had a look at the hawk pads - so much more than standard - are they really worth buying for fast road driving?

Regards,
Michaelb


Iaint

Apparently I have been told that if the holes are too close to the edge then the drilled disks can break

Incidentally what’s hp pads like, how much do they cost and where can I buy them from?

Regards,
Michaelb

I got mine from Clive at MazdaRotaryParts (should eb a banner ad for them floating around).

The down side to them is that they do make a fair amount of dust at the front (the HT-10s) ably assisted by grooved disks.

The HT-10 is, I understand, essentially a race pad and as such improves drastically as you get some temp into them but I don\'t find them poor when cold which is a feature of some extreme pads.

The right disk/pad combination is definately going to depend on what you want to do with them!

Personally recommend the Ferodo DS2500 for road use.  They are a fantastic pad, loads of feel, plenty of bite, and will last quite a while.
 
Great for on track or fast road use.
 
Plenty in stock for front and rear.  All of the team now use variants of these pads in both road and race cars :)

Jon what pads do you use with your brake setups?? dont you do your own big brake conversion??

Quote from: AtomicRex;616373Personally recommend the Ferodo DS2500 for road use.  They are a fantastic pad, loads of feel, plenty of bite, and will last quite a while.
 
Great for on track or fast road use.
 
Plenty in stock for front and rear.  All of the team now use variants of these pads in both road and race cars :)

Thanks for that

Do you sell them?  It is only for fast road use...no track

Regards,
Michaelb

Quote from: iaint;616370I got mine from Clive at MazdaRotaryParts (should eb a banner ad for them floating around).

The down side to them is that they do make a fair amount of dust at the front (the HT-10s) ably assisted by grooved disks.

The HT-10 is, I understand, essentially a race pad and as such improves drastically as you get some temp into them but I don\'t find them poor when cold which is a feature of some extreme pads.

The right disk/pad combination is definately going to depend on what you want to do with them!

No track use, UK fast road and next month 1 month in Marbella hills  fast mountain road driving â€" no cameras, no speed cameras, no CCT cameras and hardly any accidents.  The whole Costa del Sol has 3 speeding cameras put in 3 accident spots.

One camera has bee destroyed by local ‘friendly’ motorist, second does not work and the third one has overgrown tree branch in front of it LOL LOL LOL

Regards,
Michael

Quote from: michaelb;616376Thanks for that
 
Do you sell them? It is only for fast road use...no track
 
Regards,
Michaelb

I put front and rears in a customers car yesterday, and his were for fast road only.
 
The fronts are £81.10
The Rears are £98.20
 
I have a couple of sets of each in stock at the moment...prices exclude P&P + VAT
 
I can but promise you will not be disappointed by these pads :)

Quote from: AtomicRex;616379I put front and rears in a customers car yesterday, and his were for fast road only.
 
The fronts are £81.10
The Rears are £98.20
 
I have a couple of sets of each in stock at the moment...prices exclude P&P + VAT
 
I can but promise you will not be disappointed by these pads :)

Thanks for that

Can one just put the front ones in and keep the rear stock?

Regards,
Michaelb

I just installed HP+ front and rear on standard discs, been for a quick blast to bed them in and VERY happy- highlighted the need for better tyres though! My car is really for track use, but having used the cold on the road today I can vouch for them.

I\'m gonna try some of the Hawk racing pads on the front when these are done and see how that goes.

I paid £140ish I think for the complete set from RotaryArt.

Quote from: Aubec;616385I just installed HP+ front and rear on standard discs, been for a quick blast to bed them in and VERY happy- highlighted the need for better tyres though! My car is really for track use, but having used the cold on the road today I can vouch for them.

I\'m gonna try some of the Hawk racing pads on the front when these are done and see how that goes.

I paid £140ish I think for the complete set from RotaryArt.

Many thanks for that

Will check the price on rotary art site

Regards,
Michaelb

Quote from: iaint;616335I\'m running grooved fronts (having had a major failure of drilled I wouldn\'t go that route again) with Hawk HT10 front, HP+ rear.

Gives very good balance and will be good for track work - matched with braided hoses and uprated fluid I\'ve never had a hint of fade even on runway days with 170 down to 50 breaking (it was this extreme breaking that killed the drilled disks).

i used this ^^^^^^ set up with 460 bhp on track and never over heated them even though i tried :eek:

HP Plus all round would be good for just road use,  i have also heard the ds2500 are very good for many cars.

Quote from: chrisrx7;616375Jon what pads do you use with your brake setups?? dont you do your own big brake conversion??

Hiya Chris,
 
It depends on the type of use:
For Fast road and occasional track use, I put in the DS2500
For Solid Track use I use the DS3000
For Race I have started to use the DS2.11, Ferodo\'s latest pad!
 
TonyC used to use the Hawks, and I think I have managed to convert him :)....well he is now running the DS2.11\'s in his new car :)

Chaps,

How you find the pads will of course be dependant on your disc.. I used DS3000 for years on AP discs but they give off a lot of brake dust and nowadays you don\'t need to compromise.

I am running a fully floating Alcon arrangement on 15" wheels and Toyo 888 tyres. The DS3000 still had a dust problem and also developed a glazing one.. Once sorted the limiting factor is now not the brake but the tyre..

There are pads that will work well (initial bite, friction coefficient, and temp range) and sit between the DS2500 and the DS3000 for track use. They also give off a lot less dust.

I\'d suggest a call into John at Ears Motorsport for any track use. For the road then I\'d go for something that won\'t eat your discs and have you wheel cleaning for ever more..

+44 (0) 1625 433773
info@ears.co.uk  

S.

I have 2500\'s front and (I think) Mu\'s rear. Ace fast road setup, and light track.

However - At Llandow last week I was starting to push them too far after about 10-12 minuters :( They were fading a bit, and even after 2 cool down laps, they were smoking for about 5 minutes when i pitted in!

It all depends on how you brake at the end of the day....
 
The 2500\'s  should be ample for a fast trackday without fading, I use them for a wet race even...as the temp range works better in those conditions.
 
You shouldn\'t be worrying about dust build ups too much....it is a good thing!  You need to be keeping the pad face clean, otherwise it glazes...running a decent disc that will take the shine off the pad and then clear the resulting debris is good.

I\'m under no illusion of being a good driver, and I do tend to brake late, with not too much thought for brake temps :D
Another driver on the day had similar problems in an S14a - similar brake setup but running 315\'s on the front. He was braking late too. I was also running RE070\' which give quite a lot of scope for braking hard!.

Great pads though, and the new compopund is so much better than the olde one - I can drive the first mile without worrying about plowing over any small children, voles or badgers that may jump out without being able to stop!.

Anotehr great thing about the 2500\'s is the lack of tenacious dust - The dust given off by some pads (Carbon Lorraine, Mintex 1144, I\'m waving...) is some of the nastiest, most corrosive stuff i\'ve ever had near my lovely wheels. The 2500\'s jut wipe off the polished lips - it\'s all good :)

Just to add - I\'m by no means a good or experienced track driver - this is purely from the perspective of me using it as a weekend track \'dabbler\'. AtomicRex\'s experience is probably far more pertinent and useful than mine, I\'m just relaying my personal findings as a sub-amateur driver.

Si,
 
Wasnt doubting your skills...not in any way.  I see a lot of people braking in a manor that is quite dangerous.
 
People feel that less and longer is better than more and shorter, so by braking for longer and at a reduced pressure wont boil the brakes and will preserve the system for longer.  This is dangerous!
 
If you are, as you say, braking late....getting it all done in a quick and clean action....then that is ideal!
 
Oh and you missed EBC off the list!! ;)

The omission of EBC was perhaps a deliberate \'mistake\'.

My braking point is as retarded as my driving style. Wait, wait, wait, wait... Anchors. Hence my extensive use of the \'Oh sh!t\' lane in early laps!

Quote from: AtomicRex;618772Si,
 
People feel that less and longer is better than more and shorter, so by braking for longer and at a reduced pressure wont boil the brakes and will preserve the system for longer.  This is dangerous!
 
If you are, as you say, braking late....getting it all done in a quick and clean action....then that is ideal!
 
Oh and you missed EBC off the list!! ;)

Hi,

Given a fixed mass, and given a fixed entry and exit speed could you explain the physics behind that please....?

Have EBC moved on from the boy racer market?

S.

Quote from: stacy;618793Have EBC moved on from the boy racer market?

S.

All my experience(of the red and yellow variety) suggestions most certainly not. In fact, Curborough may still be littered with lumps of disintegrated red pad material... :o

I will admit to sharing your view. They always struck me as a predominately marketing led product, and experience subsequently (as recently as earlier this year with other competitors) hasn\'t dissuaded me from that. Not aware of any serious competitors/series that partake..

Anyway, back to physics. Am interested in any opposite view, but here\'s the rub as I see it. Apologies if it comes across in a patronising way, it\'s not my intent.

Brakes work by "converting" (won\'t go into the quotes) kinetic energy to heat energy. If you have a given entry speed (prior to braking) and a given exit speed (your turn in), and a fixed mass (the car), then the longer the braking distance the lower the peak temperature required to bring the speed down - because you are throwing in the only variable you have which is time.

Short and sharp will peak the temperatures and if you have a braking system not up to the job (a road system not built for track) it will fail. Either the fluid will overheat (long pedal) or the pads will overheat (short pedal just nothing happens), or the discs will glaze/warp (although the latter is rarer than people claim), or perm any 2-3 from the above.

So if you\'re on track with a road car and you want to last the day, don\'t be the last of the late brakers.

Of course the best solution is upgrade the brakes significantly, but in the real world we don\'t always have the budget - or in my case - the facility to work on the car. Yes, I used to source my track day cars for a number of years from a rental shop... ;-)

S.

I just bought some for 20 quid for the front just to see if it gets rid of the gringing noise i have got on my fronts. ill let you know the performance.
 
what do you guys think of those greenstuff and redstuff pads etc.
 
lots of em on ebay

Personally, I wouldn\'t put them on my pushbike.

;-)

S.

Quote from: stacy;618838Personally, I wouldn\'t put them on my pushbike.

;-)

S.

I use EBC Red and green on my pushbike :D They\'re only 160mm discs though! Reds are crap in the wet :giggle:

I certainly wouldn\'t use them on a car though. Japanese 12ookg coupe\'s don\'t seem to like them very much!

My setup for my 96 RZ
 
1. Dixcel FCR Carbon plain diskes
2. Dixcel Type Z pads
3. HEL brake line
4. Castrol SRS brake oil
5. 235f/265r R888s ( I usually count tyres as a part of brake set up as ur brakes are only as good as your tyres)
 
Massive stopping power and fade-free. Can\'t be any happier about them :Thumbs-up

+1 for the Ferado 2500 I use them with my Black Diamond grooved discs awesome for the road, and as they say the dust wipes off from these pads

Whist this thread has some things brought up some interesting views it does seem to have wandered off course just a little from the questions asked on  the initial post,

First of all, Michael, it would be an idea to ask your brake supplier, in this case Speedline what they recommend to be used against their Disc\'s as they should be aware of what will be suitable.

As you stated that you want no dust and are not using the car on track ask them if they have used Hawk ceramic pads as these are designed with you\'re requirements in mind

Much has been written about pads Ferodo DS2500 and yes it\'s a good pad dependent on usage , however be warned I personally found that these  pads DO need a little bit of heat generated into them to stop, so if your Miss Daisying then a stock pad will be a better bet as they need no heat to make them work, espesialy noticeable when you pull off your drive on a cold morning and expect the car to stop on a sixpence at the lights 100 yards down the road!

EBC, ahhh there\'s a name to conjure with, some will swear by them and most with machinery that\'s any good will swear at em!

Problem with EBC would seem to be that whist they sussed out bikes with cars their pads have no maintained manufacturing consistency, apparently the reason is that they shop around to different suppliers for the next batch to be made with the outcome being that out of the same box you can have one set of pads that are like cardboard and the next like concrete,

EBC do very well in the marketing department and are probably the bee\'s knee\'s if you drive a Saxo or Corsa and know no different !! (sniff)


As Stacy touched upon, It should not be assumed that all Disc\'s are created equally and that all pads will work correctly on what ever Disc\'s you have, indeed when the RX-8 came out I conducted tests and found that the stock Mazda disc\'s actually shred very easily depending on the pad material used,

All of this brings me around nicely to the original recommendation of talking to the people who supplied the Disc\'s.  


Oh yes, lastly if you upgrade the pads please upgrade the front and the rear together with your suppliers choice , because if you don\'t you will end up with more efficiency on one end of the car which will completely screw up the brake balance leaving your ABS system not knowing what in the hell is going on and effectively have a car that is worse than if you had left it completely stock.

Hope this helps

~The problem with asking people that originally supply the discs is that they will more than likely recommend something that they also sell ;)

Intersting about the 2500\'s clive - when did you buy the set you have experienced the cold bite issue with?
I had a problem with the cold bite on the last set of 2500\'s I  had about 3 years ago, BUT, the set i bought about 6 months ago are SO much better, and have pretty damned good cold bite. I have no qualms at all about using them on the road. I have heard reports of the compound changing some while ago, and the anecdotal evidence i have seems to suggest this is true. They really are VERY good on the road.

Quote from: clive;618934Whist this thread has some things brought up some interesting views it does seem to have wandered off course just a little from the questions asked on  the initial post,

First of all, Michael, it would be an idea to ask your brake supplier, in this case Speedline what they recommend to be used against their Disc\'s as they should be aware of what will be suitable.

As you stated that you want no dust and are not using the car on track ask them if they have used Hawk ceramic pads as these are designed with you\'re requirements in mind

Much has been written about pads Ferodo DS2500 and yes it\'s a good pad dependent on usage , however be warned I personally found that these  pads DO need a little bit of heat generated into them to stop, so if your Miss Daisying then a stock pad will be a better bet as they need no heat to make them work, espesialy noticeable when you pull off your drive on a cold morning and expect the car to stop on a sixpence at the lights 100 yards down the road!

EBC, ahhh there\'s a name to conjure with, some will swear by them and most with machinery that\'s any good will swear at em!

Problem with EBC would seem to be that whist they sussed out bikes with cars their pads have no maintained manufacturing consistency, apparently the reason is that they shop around to different suppliers for the next batch to be made with the outcome being that out of the same box you can have one set of pads that are like cardboard and the next like concrete,

EBC do very well in the marketing department and are probably the bee\'s knee\'s if you drive a Saxo or Corsa and know no different !! (sniff)


As Stacy touched upon, It should not be assumed that all Disc\'s are created equally and that all pads will work correctly on what ever Disc\'s you have, indeed when the RX-8 came out I conducted tests and found that the stock Mazda disc\'s actually shred very easily depending on the pad material used,

All of this brings me around nicely to the original recommendation of talking to the people who supplied the Disc\'s.  


Oh yes, lastly if you upgrade the pads please upgrade the front and the rear together with your suppliers choice , because if you don\'t you will end up with more efficiency on one end of the car which will completely screw up the brake balance leaving your ABS system not knowing what in the hell is going on and effectively have a car that is worse than if you had left it completely stock.

Hope this helps

Clive

Many thanks for the very informative response and you are 100% right I am after fast road driving pads not track pads as the car will not go on the track, maybe some drag racing in the future but then I will not need track pads â€" I HOPE I stop in time before the end of the drag strip LOL

Regards,
Michaelb

Quote from: SiH;619030~The problem with asking people that originally supply the discs is that they will more than likely recommend something that they also sell ;)
 
Intersting about the 2500\'s clive - when did you buy the set you have experienced the cold bite issue with?
I had a problem with the cold bite on the last set of 2500\'s I had about 3 years ago, BUT, the set i bought about 6 months ago are SO much better, and have pretty damned good cold bite. I have no qualms at all about using them on the road. I have heard reports of the compound changing some while ago, and the anecdotal evidence i have seems to suggest this is true. They really are VERY good on the road.

I bought a set of APs for my E46 M3 1 year ago, 6 pot front and 4 pot back comes with 2500. No cold bite issue whatsoever.
 
Of course 2500 that comes with AP are much bigger pads than normal RX-7 ones, but then again RX-7 is a much lighter car than a M3.

I\'ve moved from Hawk pads (which scored my standard discs and created heeps of dust) to the DS2500s which apparently don\'t suffer from poor cold performance anymore? and they produce less dust but the same performance as the hawks.

In addition, when the hawks got hot they squeeled like pigs in a fire, not good, the DS2500s hardly make a sound.

Just my 2 cents! and I wouldn\'t go near EBC from the stories I\'ve heard.

I have a confession to make....*ahem* I\'ve got EBC Redstuff all round (sorry Clive!). They\'re fine, work great on the road, never had a problem. EBC have a funny rep, and like Clive says, they do suffer consistency probs from farming out to whichever Chinese factory has free labour at the time, but I came from bikes to cars, and their sintered HH bike pads are excellent for bikes, and I\'ve just sorta kept with them all along. No problems at all on either of my FDs, and the only niggle is they make a fair bit of dust.

Not trying to be confrontational really, but I\'d be curious to know if any of you guys cussing them have ever actually used them or if you\'re just going on "the word on the street"?

I have tried the EBC pads and they are truly awful.  I do try and not be too confrontational anymore about companies.....but they are really designed for the saxo market.  They fade exceptionally quickly, they disintegrate, or in actual fact they fall off the backing plate!  No one uses them....and that is for a reason!
 
 
To answer the question as to why you brake hard and for a short period of time as opposed to long and soft...well in the first instance because from purely an observational stand-point this is the recommended practice for obtaining the best performance without running the risk of boiling the brakes.
 
I have also taken it upon myself to do some in-depth analysis as to the scientific proofs behind this.  And currently I am balls deep in both the laws of thermodynamics and Newtons laws of Heat transference.  If anyone has an ideas on the critical heat flux it would be very helpful.  Layman\'s terms only!!

Blimey, they\'ve certainly got you pretty riled, Jon:rollin. I have to say, that they really aren\'t anyhing like that in my experience, and I\'ve had them on the car for three years now, dunno how many sets. They don\'t fade, and who the hell cares about brake fade on the road anyway, which is what MichaelB wanted them for in his OP. I\'ve never had a set disintergrate, nor come adrift from the backplate :3Confused They work well enough to provoke the ABS in the dry, which is by implication, working as well as brakes can work on the road

There may well be better pads around, and I can\'t lay claim to having tried them all personally. I also am not on a crusade to sing praises of EBC cos I honestly don\'t give a fduk whether anyone else buys them or not, but I think such hyperbole about how wretched they are is possibly slightly unnessecary, especially in the context of the question phrased in the opening post

I actually had a set of redstuff pads disintegrate on me at a track day - they literally fell off the backing plate!
This was on an S14a, on a very short course!

Maybe I\'ve just been lucky then :3Confused

I think we are maybe being a little harsh on the old EBC pads...but I guess it is like the reason professional IT geeks wouldn\'t use PC World to purchase computer equipment.  There are better pads to be had out there.  And I know it\'s been said that people only tend to push what they sell....there is a reason I only stock and sell the DS range...because they work and I have never been let down by them.  They work well on the road, and well on the track.
 
As mentioned I am using their new compound the DS2.11 series for racing.  But I will still use the DS2500 in a wet race.  Likewise when running the cars in on the road...I will use the DS2500\'s as although they may not be as effective from cold as an OE pad, I doubt you will notice the difference!  And once you\'ve got the temps up a little...they will out perform any pad on the market.
 
But once again its my opinion....but I\'m seeing a good range of people giving them the thumbs up :)

I think there\'s a lot of Black Magic associated with brakes, whether perceived, imagined or real. It\'s easy to believe horror stories just as much as it is hype. It\'s also really easy just to stumble accross a pad that works, and blindly stay with it because you\'ve experienced truly shocking ones elsewhere and don\'t want to make the same mistake again. On my first Rex I had Black Diamond pads and discs all round, and the discs were great. The pads were absolute shlte however, and I didn\'t realise how awful until I put some *ahem* Redstuff pads on cos I got some cheap. However, if I were to replace the current EBCs with Ferrodo or whoever, maybe I\'d find out how much worse they\'ve been all along, too :Giggle

The trouble is, with pads costing upwards of 100 quid, it\'s not something you want to just take a punt on and hope, which I guess is another reason we stick to what we know. That\'s the beauty of threads like this, I guess, if thirty people say "buy Hawk" or "buy Ferrodo" and only one says "buy EBC" then you\'re gonna buy Hawk or Ferrodo. I just don\'t think it\'s right for loads of people to rubbish a product when they\'ve never used it...both Jon and SiH clearly have, and have had dodgy experiences, so that\'s all fine, but it\'s sometimes too easy to relate stories like "my wife\'s cousin\'s dog\'s grandmother had a mate with a 600 brake Haaaahnda Civic, and she told Mavis that EBC pads are really shlte, so I\'d never use them..."

Quote from: Nik da Greek;619813but it\'s sometimes too easy to relate stories like "my wife\'s cousin\'s dog\'s grandmother had a mate with a 600 brake Haaaahnda Civic, and she told Mavis that EBC pads are really shlte, so I\'d never use them..."

That\'s because the VTEC kicked in!!!

Hahahaha!

YO! :Giggle

I don\'t understand people putting ....ty pads in the rear, and good ones front. Last time I checked a car want\'s balance to brake/perform good...  Same goes for only upgrading fronts to huge setup and nothing done to the rear..?

This is very true...and hence our kits for the rear which retains the handbrake too.