What sort of power / torque could I expect to make from the BNR stage 3 twin turbos when running them sequentially at around a bar of boost:
1. On stock ports
2. On a streetported engine
My FD is running a 3 inch straight through exhaust with uprated cooling and ARC induction box (the induction box will go in favour of twin apexi filters or similar soon...) currently producing 330bhp at the fly at 0.8 bar on the stock twins with non-ported engine. :mmmm
Its very difficult to sqeeze any more than 360hp from a non-ported block, as the standard ports are only good for that. Even if you had a massive single, it wouldn`t matter, the standard ports are very restrictive. I don`t think your`ll get much more than 350hp on standard ports. When you port the block you open the flood gates to unlimited power? A medium street port with stage3 bnrs, with supporting mods at 14psi (1bar), i reckon about 380hp. Remember, that the bnr`s are only slightly bigger than the turbos. Before i go single, this is the set-up that i`m gonna try.
Are those figures at the fly or wheels that you are quoting?
Just want to clarify, you can get more then 360bhp out of stock ports you just run more boost eg more then 1 bar like 1.2 1.3, its then where you need WI or race fuel.
Porting will make you able to make more power at lower boost and spool quicker.
They are guys out there running 1.4-1.6 BAR on big singles on stock ports making over 500bhp in states obviously running race fuel.
thanks for clarifying that - I thought that would be the case.
BNRs are built for up to 1.2-1.3 BAR I believe, I think anything past 1.3BAR that they heat up the air more rather then compressing it lol
Which is better, bnr or knightsports?
ok, thanks - assuming they can run 1.2 bar efficiently I guess I would see 370-400 bhp at the fly or so?
hmm well if can get them the knightsports rf420s twins are fduking brill, I mapped a car with these on, he dynoed before I remapped it at approx 330rwhp on a recently built jap engine, the porting was mild I was told, I mapped it after the session it had much more power at around 360rwhp (approx 440 fly) the thing pushed me back into the seat and would have put most single turbos to shame.
But yeah 400bhp I would say if your engine has good compression.
Fendamonkey has BNRs he luvs them.
I`ll start savin then! Theres a nice fd in the july issue of jap performance. He`s running the rf420s you mentioned, with 380hp at just 0.8bar. Cool, very cool.
Thanks again - any idea at all where I could get a set from? I\'ve looked on line and everything is in Japanese!
Errrr, 0.9 bar on stock ports (AFAIK) on stock twins sees me at 363. It\'d be pushing more if it weren\'t creeping so badly as well.
This is proven on 2 seperate dyno\'s. (WGT and Weston Performance)
Watching with interest, hey Mark, fingers crossed I get the car back next week have to run it in (Any advice) then i will be up to see you! :driving
BNR turbos have now been ordered - I should have them in around 3 weeks, so I\'ll post more when they are on the car!
Dare I ask how much?
It\'s jus mine are fudged, I\'m weighing up the options of stock, RF420\'s(If I can find any), or BNR\'s.
£2805 US dollars shipped to the UK without me providing any exchange parts. He also does reconditioned standard turbos for $900 according to their site - which is very good with the exchange rate as it is now depending on what exchange parts he would need for that price.
OK - all the bits I need have arrived apart from the turbos, which should arrive soon.
when mapping the car what boost level should I go for that is not pushing things too far given that the car is going to be track day\'d? I\'m not that keen on having to run race fuel - just v-power will do me fine. I was thinking stick to a bar? The turbo\'s are good for 1.2 - 1.3 bar, but I\'m not sure about the engine itself?
Should I stick to sequential on the turbo\'s (hope this question does not open a can of worms..):flamed
Engine is on stock ports, Greddy SMIC. (full spec in the first post on this thread.)
Stick to sequential (Why lose your bottom end power band lol)
1 Bar I would go for for high boost 0.8 Bar for low boost.
To go higher go Water Injection to keep it safe with pump fuel
Thanks for the quick reply.
I\'m still a bit of a noob with the 13B - why do you need water injection when going over a bar? (I\'m presuming just water rather than methanol mix?)
Would it be to stop detonation - could this not also be done by winding back the advance? Or is it more to do with cooling the rotors / housings / tips?
Have you upgraded the fuelling at all mate?
Which cooling upgrades do you have, uprated rad? Would the Greddy SMIC not be pushed a bit when getting to the high 300`s? I know ive seen a few people running them at that, but surely you would be better off with a V-Mount or FMIC?
Maybe a HKS Twin Power would be a good idea too?
Which boost controller do you have? Maybe get something like a Greddy Profec B Spec II and have a Hi and Low boost setting? 1.2 Bar for High for tracks etc and 1 Bar for Low for everyday driving. :)
Greddy SMIC is fine, seen them run on Medium singles.
WI will stop det as combustion temps rise past 1 BAR, its not like a Piston turbo engine where you see them regularly over 20 psi on Pump, you could wind back the advance but you lose power so whats the point in winding up the boost past 1 bar in that case.
Your mapper will be able to see whats needed as you ramp up the boost on the Dyno.They can see when you are running out of fuel delivery, ignition problems etc etc
You will run out of fuel a lot earlier then 1 BAR if you havent upgraded your fueling system
The fuel system is going to get a full upgrade - rail, pump, injectors. so getting the fuel in will be fine. ;)
already controlling the boost with Greddy, and using a Lindop Motorsport bigger radiator (42mm I think from memory.) Intake is now twin HKS kit, rather than ARC box.
I\'m not keen on going FMIC at the moment due to lack of pennies - if the IC I have will do the job then all the better. I figure that if I dont boost the hell out of the BNR turbos then they should not produce too much heat for the IC to deal with...I may well look at some ducting to get the air to the IC better, which does not look like a tough job.
Blitz - does the water injection without methanol not effectively retard the ignition by damping the spark, therefore achieving the same result as retarding the ignition via the Power FC?
Yes with WI you do slow the burn, your AFRS will show up richer, so you can either keep the parameters the same on the tuning to keep it safe at high boost, or if you want to get maximum power from WI you trim the fuel map and can advance the timing but obviously if the WI system you install does not have the correct failsafes then you are at risk if it fails.
But by just retarding the ignition this does not lower combustion temps like WI does.
Thanks.
Can you use the Power FC with a system like Aquamist to run dual maps that are switchable + switch to another pre-set map as a fail safe if there is an issue with the water injection?
one word no, Power FC does not have switchable maps.
The latest Aquamist systems can switch off the boost controller when a fault is detected eg (low water level,clogged jet,pump failure ect) so it will drop you down to wastegate pressure 0.5 bar
:cheers Thanks.
its prob been said already but couldnt be arsed to read it all sorry but KEEP it sequential. why pay out 2300 quid for the twins then to put them in non sequential. you might as well buy a small single cheap turbo kit which will do the same without all the soliniods. theres a lad on fduk thats just got over 400 hp from the bnr3s in sequential mode
cool - was that on a non-ported engine? Any idea what boost he was running?
dont know mate have a look on fduk. i would recomend someone who could advise you but i`d probably get banned for saying his name..........!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
It was a ported engine mate, 1.2 bar of boost.
spec list here, taken from FDUK:
Rebuilt engine by Tim Gray Motorsport using Hurley internals
Street Porting by Era
Removed A/C & Air pump
BNR sequential twin turbos
Uprated 100psi solenoid set
KG Parts secondary fuel rail with 1680cc injectors
Aeromotive FPR
Bosch 044 inline fuel pump with custom swirl pot using standard lift pump
HKS Twinspark
Radtec V mount with custom hard pipes
Custom cold air intakes
ACT clutch
Greddy downpipe
Custom silenced mid pipe
Greddy backbox
BC suspension kit
Dragon gearbox brace
Autoexe chassis bracing
Plumbed in fire extinguisher to engine bay
Corbeau bucket seats with Willans harnesses
99 spec throughout
Rota Torque Drift wheels
HID conversion
Link to the thread here;
http://www.fduk.org/forum/showthread.php?t=14621&highlight=bnr+twins
Quite a few bits in there that I do not have - I\'m also running stock ports, and will stick to a bar or so of boost, so I doubt I\'ll get that kind of power. Will be interesting to see how close I get to the 400bhp mark though...
Now I just have to wait for the damn turbo\'s to arrive - they\'re late!:(
Quote from: suba;630309Quite a few bits in there that I do not have - I\'m also running stock ports, and will stick to a bar or so of boost, so I doubt I\'ll get that kind of power. Will be interesting to see how close I get to the 400bhp mark though...
Now I just have to wait for the damn turbo\'s to arrive - they\'re late!:(
I`m currently on a similar road to you mate, should be receiving my uprated twins this weekend, although i`m getting the WGT/Turbo Technics Uprated Twins.
My spec will be something like this:
Street Ported Engine
WGT/Turbo Technics High Flow Uprated Twin Turbos
Greddy Profec B Spec II
KG Parts Uprated Secondary Fuel Rail
Bosch 1680cc Injectors x 2
Aeromotive FPR
Bosch 044 Fuel Pump/Or Walbro Pump
Radtec V-Mount Uprated Intercooler & Radiator Set-up
HKS Twin Spark Ignition System (maybe..still undecided)
Racing NGK Plugs
Blitz Twin Filter Induction Kit
HKS Downpipe
Custom Straight through exhaust
Coolingmist Water Injection
Thats pretty much it, hoping to run around 1.0 bar of boost also.
Apart from the streetport and the V-mount IC + aquamist (I\'m running a greddy SMIC and no mist) it\'ll be interesting to compare the results of the two cars at a bar of boost - should be quite an accurate comparison between the different turbos. I\'ll update this thread when I have some results.:mmmm
Quote from: suba;630368Apart from the streetport and the V-mount IC + aquamist (I\'m running a greddy SMIC and no mist) it\'ll be interesting to compare the results of the two cars at a bar of boost - should be quite an accurate comparison between the different turbos. I\'ll update this thread when I have some results.:mmmm
Yup yup it definately will. I`ll keep you informed also. :)
cool - I\'m starting to get hacked off with BNR now. Turbos still have not arrived after 6 weeks (I was quoted 3 weeks for delivery), and I have the day booked off work tomorrow to get them on the car!:mad:
Quote from: skybusr34;630294dont know mate have a look on fduk. i would recomend someone who could advise you but i`d probably get banned for saying his name..........!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Everyone should say the name...
Then it will be a free for all lol
Can BNRs be used a direct replacement for a knackered turbo pack on a standard car?
yes they are a straight swop - though the car will need to be mapped (for which you need a Power FC or piggyback ecu + fuelling system + cooling upgraded to make it worth it, possibly also a clutch....exhaust, induction etc.
What I meant was, can they be swapped directly on a standard car without all the extra bits\'n\'pieces. I appreciate that there is untapped potential being wasted, but as a more reliable set of twins, can they be used on the standard set up of the FD? Thanks!
Yeah they can.
Very expensive solution though if your keeping everything standard.
Quote from: ajas123;630702What I meant was, can they be swapped directly on a standard car without all the extra bits\'n\'pieces. I appreciate that there is untapped potential being wasted, but as a more reliable set of twins, can they be used on the standard set up of the FD? Thanks!
You would need to remove the air pump.
Why do you need to loose the air pump?
Quote from: ajas123;630896Why do you need to loose the air pump?
BNR\'s dont clear the Air pump assembly because they are larger than stock.
Thanks - I had the impression from the BNR website that the housings were the same as standard but that it is the internals that are altered. Which part of the BNRs are larger?
Quote from: ajas123;630905Thanks - I had the impression from the BNR website that the housings were the same as standard but that it is the internals that are altered. Which part of the BNRs are larger?
The entire pack is about 1/2 longer than standard, which is why the Y-Pipe needs to be lengthened.
you would need an ecu as well, bigger tubs = more air flow so more fuel will be required at a given boost pressure.
Matt
Quote from: Mims;630913The entire pack is about 1/2 longer than standard, which is why the Y-Pipe needs to be lengthened.
Wow, that sounds like some big increase. Thanks for taking the time reply. That isn\'t clear from their website description (unless I\'ve missed something obvious!).
so how would you lengthen your y pipe assembly? is there a kit you can buy or is it easy enough to modify your own? also, seeing that the bnr\'s are larger in physical size, can they still be changed with the engine in place? i know i struggled to remove and refit my stock ones. just curious, james.
Quote from: gear1275;630970so how would you lengthen your y pipe assembly? is there a kit you can buy or is it easy enough to modify your own? also, seeing that the bnr\'s are larger in physical size, can they still be changed with the engine in place? i know i struggled to remove and refit my stock ones. just curious, james.
Lengthened Y pipe comes with the kit. Whats your email? I\'ll give you a detailed description of fitment etc.
Quote from: Mims;630982Lengthened Y pipe comes with the kit. Whats your email? I\'ll give you a detailed description of fitment etc.
If you wouldn\'t mind, please! flyinghigh(at)hotmail(dot)co(dot)uk.
Thanks!
ooh me too please! gear1275(at)live(dot)co(dot)uk
Sorry for the delayed response but you guys have mail :)
Scratch that...........I just received a Delivery Failed Notification for you Ajas. :confused:
Quote from: Mims;632175Scratch that...........I just received a Delivery Failed Notification for you Ajas. :confused:
Not quite sure what is going on there then! - please use this one instead:
flyinghigh(at)4500x(dot)com
(4500 as in four thousand five hundred)
Thisone works - I\'ve just checked!!
Many thanks! :Thumbs-up
An update on this...
The BNR turbos are now on the car - unfortunately I dont have a dyno graph as REworx\'s dyno broke this morning....not my car that broke it - the HD went.:(
The map was finished on the road - the car feels very strong at 1 bar of boost, however the charge temps are creeping up to the mid 50\'s at the top of third gear. It looks like the Greddy SMIC is not getting enough air to it to cope - so I will have to go V-mount or front mount IC.:HammerI thought I would get away with it, but obviously not.
When Re-worx have fixed their dyno I\'ll be able to get a dyno printout and post it up.
Thats unfortunate mate, I did have a feeling this would be the case on your car though. Once the v-mount or FMIC is on though it will be a lot safer and obviously it will be a great for piece of mind. So in the long run I think its a better option to do this now than risk it.
Its going to be another 3 months ish before mine is ready for mapping :(
Yep - a right pain for me as the RX fund is now almost empty after the turbos, fuelling upgrades, clutch etc....was really hopeing that the IC I had would cope.
Single plate clutch is also going to take some getting used to!
Will see if I can get hold of a second hand FMIC or V-mount, if not then it will have to wait for a few months.:2Rolleyes
There are a few FMIC kits on ebay - but not sure if they are up to the job. I really want to make sure that what goes on my car is quality stuff.
If your looking for a buyer for your greedy smic, should you replace it i\'d be happy to buy it subject to price.
Sure - I reckon it\'ll go soon allong with the hardpipes. Why dont you PM me an offer?:guinness
Don\'t think i can PM you as i\'m not a full member.
If you could e-mail me at ant.denise@sky.com i\'ll get back to you with an offer. :cheers
Email sent.
Well, finally here\'s the result after getting a V-mount on the car:
http://s11.photobucket.com/albums/a198/suba11/?action=view¤t=RXtorquebhp.jpg
Boost was set at a bar, and could have gone to 1.2 which would have seen well over 400bhp at the fly on a stockported engine. The spool on the primary is not quite as good as the stock twins, but still early enough for me.
No more issues with the charge temps and the v-mount either.:Thumbs-up
Good figures mate, although dont people get 330bhp flywheel figures on stock turbos?
Or is that 330bhp at the wheels?
Who mapped it mate?
That\'s at the wheels, so just shy of 400 at the fly.
re-worx mapped the car under orders to give me a nice safety margin.
Quote from: suba;638472That\'s at the wheels, so just shy of 400 at the fly.
re-worx mapped the car under orders to give me a nice safety margin.
In that case those are fantastic numbers, well done mate!
Oh by the way, have you had to go for one of the HKS Twin Power things or not? Im undecided whether to get one.
I\'m running a couple of triple layer 150mm HKS foam filters, for no other reason than I could get the cages cheaply second hand - and replacement filters dont cost much. I would have gone for a couple of Apexi cones otherwise.
A couple more graphs are here:
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a198/suba11/rx-boostpower.jpg
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a198/suba11/rx7AFRpower.jpg
I meant the HKS ignition amplifier mate. Are you running one, or just using racing plugs?
No - just running 10\'s/11\'s plugs