I do suck with maths, I wont try and deny that :Laugh:Hammer
I am trying to work out a rough jet size for my water injection, and they usually say 10-25% fuel flow, depending on how much you are depending on it.
Anyone know the rough fuel flow of a T04E\'d street ported 13B thats meant to have about 350-400bhp? :xconfused:confused::3Confused
Doing my basic retard maths and guestimations by how rich rotaries run, I reckon something along the lines of 2.4-2.7 litres of fuel per min for a 350-400bhp 13B at full howl? Or is that not enough?
Some places rate the nozzles by HP - that will work just the same for Rotaries.
I plan on running similar power to you and have an Aquamist 0.6mm nozzle and pump will be set to 150 psi max (cooling mist pump). You may need a spark amp though, as the water will quench the charge and tend to put the spark out.
I dont want to rate by HP, I want to know by CC/ML.
That HP thing wouldnt work with rotaries really if calculated on a piston engine, it wouldnt be THAT accurate anyhow, as it depends on the AFR and BPFC of that particular engine, and thats very different on a Rotary to a piston engine.
No offence, but the power the engine produces is directly proportional to the fuel/air it uses. Yes rotaries have a longer combustion chamber and are consequently less efficient than the piston engine at combustion, but both a rotary and a piston engine will be similar in fuel consumption for similar AFR\'s at similar power levels.
As you only want water injection when you hit higher boost, and will probably be running the injectors close to 80-85% at that point, you can use one of the injector calculators to work out your flow at a given HP then decide how much water you need. Unless your eeking out the last ounce of performance from your engine with WI (and therefore tuning for it) it really isn\'t that critical how much as long as it doesn\'t swamp the engine.
Simple fact is, regardless of anything else, rotaries often run far richer AFRs on boost compared to piston engines, so its NOT the same as using piston engine calculations.
I dont want probably or guesses made from piston engines, I already made a guestimate closer than that, I just wanted to know, in real numbers, from someone who I expect is better at maths and better at rotaries than me, the fuel flow at full wack what your average 350-400bhp rotaries use.
I cant check injector duty to be 100% sure even if I had injector sizes, and nor can anyone unless they got an ECU that can show them, but I\'d hoped someone here might know enough about their engines or just a bit of maths to give me a close enough number.
What ECU are you running that you cant check Injector duty?
What Water Injection system are you using, from there I may be able to help?
Quote from: StavFC;615335Simple fact is, regardless of anything else, rotaries often run far richer AFRs on boost compared to piston engines, so its NOT the same as using piston engine calculations.
I dont want probably or guesses made from piston engines, I already made a guestimate closer than that, I just wanted to know, in real numbers, from someone who I expect is better at maths and better at rotaries than me, the fuel flow at full wack what your average 350-400bhp rotaries use.
I cant check injector duty to be 100% sure even if I had injector sizes, and nor can anyone unless they got an ECU that can show them, but I\'d hoped someone here might know enough about their engines or just a bit of maths to give me a close enough number.
Perhaps it would be better if you give us some real world figures - such as what injectors you are running - what engine, what mods - then perhaps doing some more involved maths might make more sense. 350-400 is quite a range ! :rolleyes:
Are you using the WI as a safety net, or will you be tuning for it ?
Perhaps if your question were phrased better you might have got a better answer.
For instance - if you tune for WI, then it\'s quite acceptable to drop the fuelling when the WI comes in, as you can run leaner to get more power knowing the water is there to lower the onset of knock. But if you are going to use it like that - you\'ll need to be very precise about what your injectors are doing - and if you don\'t have an ECU that can show you that, then you\'re already stuffed and need to sort that first.
and for the record - Stoich is stoich for petrol/air combustion - regardless of what type of engine - and as you make the most power at/close to that point - getting as close to it is the art. A lot of people run their engines far too rich and sacrifice power, but with a rotary it\'s easy to lean out and go bang if you aren\'t sure what\'s going on.
Not trying to diss you - but perhaps some more info might help ?
Running F-Con.
And its not quite a range, as said, I estimated 300cc more a min difference between those two powers (50bhp) in fuel, so about 30cc difference of water/meth if talking 10%, thats not "quite a range", thats as near as damnit spot on, unless you reckon you could get more accurate than being half a ml out a second prof? lol.
Quote from: Prof;615354Stoich is stoich for petrol/air combustion
Who in their right mind on ANY performance car runs stoich or anything close at peak power? What a bizzare thing to say.
Seems to me you are just arguing just to be clever/right now, and on that note, I give up on this thread, useless with replies like that, ill find out elsewhere somehow.
Try one of the WI forums....
:wave
Quote from: Prof;615486Try one of the WI forums....
:wave
You could try this - for rotary applications double the capacity (2.6L)
http://www.alcohol-injection.com/forum/nozzle-size-calculator/
Ouch....Prof...consider yourself bitch slapped! lol
Quote from: AtomicRex;615597Ouch....Prof...consider yourself bitch slapped! lol
Don\'t worry - I suspected as soon as I saw the reply that it might have been the said same Stavros that I\'ve had dealings with on another forum - but never mind - we try to be helpful, he is a rotary owner after all :Thumbs-up
Ah, yes, the most opinionated, rude, abrupt and know-it all person ever to log on any forum ever, (no, I don\'t mean Prof! :D) and the reason I stopped buying Redline magazine cos I couldn\'t stomach reading his pretentious invective every month. Maybe we could take his attitude more seriously if he hadn\'t publically taken apart every single "project" car he\'s ever had in the quest for building a "drift monster" and then utterly failed to ever put it back together and finally quietly sold it on as parts and moved on to murdering the next perfectly good performance car?
ahh so this Stav Guy is a writer for Redline magazine?
Well he would need to take his car to tuner as he has an FCON anyway to have it retuned if he is tuning for water, as official HKS tuners are the only ones to have the software and dongle I think to read the ECU.
StavFC if ya still reading you didnt answer what AI system you have , if it is an aquamist system talk to Richard on the Aquamist forum he has made the best systems for Rotaries at the moment and will give you the precise answers you require.
Oh dear :rollin
Quote from: Nik da Greek;615627Ah, yes, the most opinionated, rude, abrupt and know-it all person ever to log on any forum ever, (no, I don\'t mean Prof! :D) and the reason I stopped buying Redline magazine cos I couldn\'t stomach reading his pretentious invective every month. Maybe we could take his attitude more seriously if he hadn\'t publically taken apart every single "project" car he\'s ever had in the quest for building a "drift monster" and then utterly failed to ever put it back together and finally quietly sold it on as parts and moved on to murdering the next perfectly good performance car?
What cars are they then?
The 200bhp stripped out R5GTT I built from a stock wreck and did countless miles in?
A 400bhp caged up antilagged 3door Cossie I built from standard, owned for 3 years and did just over 30,000miles in?
An almost stock 500quid S13 I drifted for ages (about 1yr solid on the road and did 100miles a day in), then took apart to build something better spec out of, realised the sills were hugely rusty and knackered, so broke it and made a profit in parts?
A cheap Skyline GTR I built from one with a blown engine and body damage and no keys (yes, an undrivable wreck), that I was just building a normal 3litre big power road car out of, but then what I always wanted (the Chaser) came along, so I decided to get away from the horrendous Skyline tax and nobbed it off for something I do like?
The Chaser I bought, drove and drifted for over a year (done just under 15k miles since I bought it) before taking it off the road as someone offered me almost what I paid for the car for the engine and box alone, and I still own?
Or some other imaginary car?
Never let FACTS get in the way of idiots talking utter turd about stuff they know nothing about on the internet eh :WaveBye :Typing
Blitz- Aquamist, though that doesnt matter for my specific question (which nobody has been able to tell me?!), and I just want it for the same reasons race/rally cars use it, for added safety on top to reduce the chances of det if the charge temps get too high.
I dont want to rely on it for added performance (ie it be mapped so it will det without it), so I wouldnt want be changing the map.
Dont understand peoples obsession with chasing every last 5-10bhp then constantly crying that their engines have shat themselves or are afraid to run much boost as its so close to the det threshold. Safe and reliable suits my meagre wallet far better. :)
Quote from: StavFC;615288I do suck with maths, I wont try and deny that :Laugh:Hammer
I am trying to work out a rough jet size for my water injection, and they usually say 10-25% fuel flow, depending on how much you are depending on it.
Anyone know the rough fuel flow of a T04E\'d street ported 13B thats meant to have about 350-400bhp? :xconfused:confused::3Confused
Stav,
What size injectors are you running?
rgds
Brian
To be honest mate, I dont know. But without knowing what duty cycle they are running, and what the fuel pressure is (i have got that gauge, but cant remember off hand as it wont help for this without duty cycle anyhow), that wont really help anyhow as we wont know how hard they being pushed.
I just need to know how much fuel your average 350-400bhp 13B consumes at full howl, and I hoped someone might jus know that as part of their random knowlege or knowlege from tuning theirs.
My guestimates from previous experience is 2.4-2.7litres per min, which is close enough to pick a jet size.
But I was kinda hoping others would know just incase my maths was miles out (which is quite often, lol!).
Not to worry :)
As I mentioned before - use the injector calculator - play with the injector values until you get your desired HP figure, then work out your fuel from that.
Calc assumes stock fuel pressure, and that\'s what the injector will be rated for anyway - so it makes calculating fuel usage a doddle from there.
http://www.rx7.com/cgi-local/2ndgencalc.cgi
To get that HP range you\'ll probably need to put in 4x800/850cc or 4x1000cc injectors (keeping it below 85% duty for injector life) - and it\'s likely these are what\'s in the car given the mod list you posted on another thread
Quote from: StavFC;615675Oh dear :rollin
What cars are they then?
The 200bhp stripped out R5GTT I built from a stock wreck and did countless miles in?
A 400bhp caged up antilagged 3door Cossie I built from standard, owned for 3 years and did just over 30,000miles in?
An almost stock 500quid S13 I drifted for ages (about 1yr solid on the road and did 100miles a day in), then took apart to build something better spec out of, realised the sills were hugely rusty and knackered, so broke it and made a profit in parts?
A cheap Skyline GTR I built from one with a blown engine and body damage and no keys (yes, an undrivable wreck), that I was just building a normal 3litre big power road car out of, but then what I always wanted (the Chaser) came along, so I decided to get away from the horrendous Skyline tax and nobbed it off for something I do like?
The Chaser I bought, drove and drifted for over a year (done just under 15k miles since I bought it) before taking it off the road as someone offered me almost what I paid for the car for the engine and box alone, and I still own?
Or some other imaginary car?
Never let FACTS get in the way of idiots talking utter turd about stuff they know nothing about on the internet eh :WaveBye :Typing
Well, tbh, pal....whatever ;)
I fail to see why you went to all the trouble of typing that lot out to make your point...I\'m curious to know in what way you think the details of those last three cars in any way refute what I said :confused:. By your own admission, the only connecting factor between them is that they sarted out as cars, and ended up as parts, but maybe I\'ve missed the point you were attempting to make?
And as to the closing
riposte, well, I do undeniably talk plenty of turd, but at least I\'m capable of mustering the humility to admit it. I can be accused of being many things, but not really an idiot, not with any degree of accuracy. I try to steer clear of waltzing into a forum and insulting the intelligence of long-standing members, particularly ones who evidently know more about the subject in question than I do, because I\'ve no burning desire to make myself look ridiculous. Fortunately, I can\'t bring myself to get too upset about being patronised by someone who is supposed to make their living from writing English, but is capable of using words such as "guesstimate" with no apparent sense of irony :rollin
Right, I\'ll let you get back to your thread so you can say "I\'ve no idea about the parameters affecting the question I\'ve asked, but that doesn\'t stop me from being obnoxious to people who are attempting to answer my question for me" a few more times. Sorry for all the spam. :Thumbs-up
:rollin
The point was, you\'re talking rubbish about stuff you know nothing about I presume to be the big/clever man on the internet with no worthwile imput to this technical question that has never been answered.
And about the last 3 cars you keep mentioning (despite me owning/building/modding 20+, many between these cars, but as we all can well see, you have no idea about me or my life), what you said/implied at first is rubbish as only two was even remotely drift related, two of them did more miles in my ownership than most would have done in that time, the other one was a non running wreck so couldnt be driven.
And each one of them was sold in bits as im not stupid and wouldnt sell something in one piece when I can make twice as much in parts, especially when im making a profit.
And why shouldnt I question replies to my own question that I can see are clearly wrong? Last time I checked how REAL life worked, age, post count, and when you registered on a forum doesnt directly correlate to your brain power or knowlege...
But either way, chat all you like, suck off and flame you like, if it makes you feel better about yourself, crack on, its Friday, enjoy yourself if you get off on that kinda thing :)
Quote from: StavFC;615457Seems to me you are just arguing just to be clever/right now, and on that note, I give up on this thread, useless with replies like that, ill find out elsewhere somehow.
Stav, I think this above paragraph that has got my fellow members back up, Prof is very clever chap and if you knew what kind of job he does you wouldnt make statements like that above, he is probably the only guy who has managed to get an eManage to work on a FC correctly. So chill out and dont come across as know it all I know everything about performance cars type person.
Back to the topic, as its an Aquamist system , use the 0.7mm jet if just using it for a safety net for 400bhp
^^^what he said. Minus the bit about injector sizes, as I don\'t know the answer to that one. But I do know that Prof knows more about this stuff than most of us (including you possibly, Stav?).
Quote from: StavFC;615766The point was ... blah blah ... you get off on that kinda thing :)
Rein in the claws, chief. Not sure what you\'re trying to achieve with your tone on all your posts above... But I\'m pretty sure you aren\'t heading toward an answer. Try using the search facility on here or Ausrotary maybe first?
Quote from: StavFC...to this technical question that has never been answered.
Quote from: Prof;615724As I mentioned before - use the injector calculator - play with the injector values until you get your desired HP figure, then work out your fuel from that.
Calc assumes stock fuel pressure, and that\'s what the injector will be rated for anyway - so it makes calculating fuel usage a doddle from there.
http://www.rx7.com/cgi-local/2ndgencalc.cgi
To get that HP range you\'ll probably need to put in 4x800/850cc or 4x1000cc injectors (keeping it below 85% duty for injector life) - and it\'s likely these are what\'s in the car given the mod list you posted on another thread
Stavros,
you\'re answer is here, and I don\'t claim it as my own work, but it\'s what I used as the basis for my tuning as have many many others - you just need to do the last bit of adding up yourself as I do have better things to do - like fix my vac leak.:Tongue1
Anyway - I\'m off to get dirty again :WaveBye
Quote from: StavFC;615766:rollin
The point was, you\'re talking rubbish about stuff you know nothing about I presume to be the big/clever man on the internet with no worthwile imput to this technical question that has never been answered.
And about the last 3 cars you keep mentioning (despite me owning/building/modding 20+, many between these cars, but as we all can well see, you have no idea about me or my life), what you said/implied at first is rubbish as only two was even remotely drift related, two of them did more miles in my ownership than most would have done in that time, the other one was a non running wreck so couldnt be driven.
And each one of them was sold in bits as im not stupid and wouldnt sell something in one piece when I can make twice as much in parts, especially when im making a profit.
And why shouldnt I question replies to my own question that I can see are clearly wrong? Last time I checked how REAL life worked, age, post count, and when you registered on a forum doesnt directly correlate to your brain power or knowlege...
But either way, chat all you like, suck off and flame you like, if it makes you feel better about yourself, crack on, its Friday, enjoy yourself if you get off on that kinda thing :)
Stav,
Please respect other users on this forum as you are a guest on MRC, people have tried to help you only to be abused this will not be tolerated if it continues.
By all means use the forum but be respectful and mindful of other users.
thankyou.
Quote from: BlitzBoy;615773Back to the topic, as its an Aquamist system , use the 0.7mm jet if just using it for a safety net for 400bhp
Lol! EXACTLY what my 2.4-2.7 litres per minute of fuel calculations for 350-400bhp on a rotary running at full howl, referenced to the 10% water flow, referenced to the aquamist jet size flow charts, suggested I should use.
So I was right after all, my maths was better than I thought! :wave
Wish your reply was the first reply on this thread, wouldve just confirmed what I thought I already worked out (which is all I asked at the start, someone confirm what I thought I had already worked out!), and this thread wouldnt have been wasted with a couple of pages of rubbish :rollin
Cheers mate, appreciated :Thumbsup!
Prof- I appreciate you trying to help, but I dont see how that link can help? It tells me what power I can get from what injectors at what duty cycle, but
doesnt show the ONLY thing I need to know, how much fuel is flowing! And as I said a few times, as I dont know what size injectors it is or what duty they are anyhow, not like it matters for the question I was asking.
Quote from: gsb876;615830Stav,
Please respect other users on this forum as you are a guest on MRC, people have tried to help you only to be abused this will not be tolerated if it continues.
By all means use the forum but be respectful and mindful of other users.
thankyou.
I think you will find I was just replying to pathetic digs, forum warrioring, whatever you want to call it, by one of your "established" members, nick da greek (i thought that was my dads name, but live and learn:rollin), and I doubt being an established member gives you that right and gives the person on the recieving end no right to reply just because he is a \'noob\'...
stav the way you are getting peoples backs up is unacceptable from a member let alone a guest as you are,the moderating team doesnt differentiate when it comes to problem postings both are dealt with the same.
Prof has masses of rotary knowledge and should be treated with respect he has tried to help and doesnt deserve your comments.
please refrain from contenscious postings.
Hang on hang on, what have I said to Prof? I havent abused him, though one of your lot did to me?
I appreciate people trying to help, and all I said was the things I was being told was of no use to me or was wrong, as they didnt help me with what I was asking (not even that link), which is simple fact to anyone who understands what I was asking, like it or not.
And one of your members did a really poor attempt to give me some internet abuse, and failed.
So why am I the bad guy? :wave:Nono!
Thankfully BlitzBoy confirmed what thought I already thought I knew, which was my sole question from the start, and im very thankful for that :Thumbsup!
And on that note, im off out.
Quote from: StavFC;615852Hang on hang on, what have I said to Prof? I havent abused him, though one of your lot did to me?
I appreciate people trying to help, and all I said was the things I was being told was of no use to me or was wrong, as they didnt help me with what I was asking (not even that link), which is simple fact to anyone who understands what I was asking, like it or not.
And one of your members did a really poor attempt to give me some internet abuse, and failed.
So why am I the bad guy? :wave:Nono!
Thankfully BlitzBoy confirmed what thought I already thought I knew, which was my sole question from the start, and im very thankful for that :Thumbsup!
And on that note, im off out.
Put simply, you\'re the bad guy because your attitude stinks.
I have 5000 posts on this forum and have never exchanged any hostile word with anyone before, nor had a single post reported. I have better things to do than be an internet warrior, as you so coarsely put it. The way you talk to people is unacceptable, you aim to ridicule at every opportunity, and I was standing up for Prof who was in no way deserving of your snide remarks, but is far too much of a gentleman to bite back.
I am also not "one of" anyones "lot", but a free-thinking individual with the ability to form my own opinions. You\'re ignorant and offensive, perhaps it was a mistake of mine to attempt to be so civil.
I will not be posting further on the subject because this forum is not a place I want to reduce to the level of name-calling. Any mod who feels my words have been in any way unwarranted or unjustified, please feel free to delete any or all with impunity.
I do think you\'re badly wrong on one thing, however....it was not a "really poor attempt" to give you some abuse, you just clearly didn\'t understand it. Try re-reading it slowly and see if you get it second time...
Wow this is stupid guys.
I\'ve been a member of this forum for years now,and have also met a lot of the members in the flesh, knowing them to be top blokes who I have a lot of time for. I also know Stav and know that if you guys ever had this kind of conversation face to face you would know he was not trying to be a know it all or arrogant.
Completely unbiased, its just a bit of a misunderstanding, Prof was just trying to be helpful as usual, pointing Stav in the best direction he could, and Stav was just getting frustrated with what is quite a difficult thing to figure out, with no obvious answer popping up.
i just dont understand Nik\'s random comments (which got no warning from the mods and had no reason but to cause problems?), and they way that the mods jumped straight onto warning Stav about a tuning discussion between him and Prof (-Prof\'s been working with this stuff long enough to look after himself ;) ).
Regardless of whether he works for a magazine and therefore people think they know him or something, its a little bit bitchy and not the best introduction!
edit. Just to re-iterate: I don\'t understand what has Stav\'s car history got to do with anything? I don\'t dislike you or anything Nik I just don\'t understand why you said it, especially if you\'re basing your knowledge on a monthly magazine?!
The unreal thing here is that Stavros posted a question about how to work out his fuel flow - not what size jet he wanted.
QuoteAnyone know the rough fuel flow of a T04E\'d street ported 13B thats meant to have about 350-400bhp?
I did actually suggest a suitable answer on the first post, but was told that he didn\'t want to rate by horsepower...
QuoteI dont want to rate by HP, I want to know by CC/ML.
That HP thing wouldnt work with rotaries really if calculated on a piston engine, it wouldnt be THAT accurate anyhow, as it depends on the AFR and BPFC of that particular engine, and thats very different on a Rotary to a piston engine.
...yet this was the answer Blitzboy gave in a later post anyway - which is in fact what Stavros wanted to know.
QuoteBack to the topic, as its an Aquamist system , use the 0.7mm jet if just using it for a safety net for 400bhp
I work in a call centre and spend most of my day solving complicated problems with peoples backup software - so I belive I\'m reasonably qualified to understand what\'s meant by a question when it\'s phrased, and in particular, when someone reafirms what it is they are actually after - which apparently was how to calculate fuel flow to work out what water injection nozzle size to use.
I suggested the injector size calculator because even without knowing the injector size you have, you could at least get an idea of what cc injectors at what duty would give the power band your car has - and from that it\'s a simple matter of adding all the injector values together multiplied by the % duty - that would have given you cc/min - then from that you could have calculated the water nozzle you needed.
Anyway lesson learned - I\'ll probably not bother to answer next time :rolleyes:
EDIT- Apologies, hugely smashed long winded reply coming up... :o
Prof- Seriously, I appreciate your help regardless, I honestly do, and the first reply was as good as right (ie 1.6mm, not exactly far enough away to matter) considering what my fuelling sums worked out (which was 1.7mm), but I wanted factual reasoning (as im not too confident with my sums), which I didnt really get (meaning it could be miles out for all I know), and then it all went wrong from then on.
I simply wanted to know what the fuel flow was for a 350-400bhp 13B was at full chat, and no replies gave it me (even that link, until BlitzBoy said what most fit), but I presumed experienced tuned 13B owners would know roughly the amount of fuel they flowing.
It was ok if people didnt know, unless you a techy tuning geek like me you\'d not know, and there is no harm in not knowing stuff, but if anyone did, replys would be handy.
I didnt want to annoy, antagonise, whatever, anyone on here, I wouldnt get anything from that, hell, im only here to help myself (as I have personally been heavily tuning turbocharged cars myself all my life, but always piston engines, rotaries are not quite the same), but when things dont help or are incorrect, surely you should point them out, rather than threaten to ban me, for the future progression of the UK rotary tuning scene???
I may be a noob to you lot, but facts are facts, they are science if nothing else, you cant blindly believe the world is flat just because the person who says so has a million posts and the noob who says the world is round has only a few.
Nick da\' Greek can make out he standing up for someone all he likes, but seems to have some kind of random George Harrisons stabber spec random hate for me prior to me joining here (from reading a monthly entertainment magazine, lol, REALLY nice insight in to my life, lovin your work), but getting personal on the internet about stuff he knows nothing about and someone he knows nothing about, is quite daft, and people "warning" me for the 100% facts I say back to him, considering he is going on about me like he even knows who I am, and I havent got a feckin clue who he is, is properly funny in a ridiculous double standards way...
Finally, fair play to Ben Lewis, the only person here who has met me in the flesh (and though I dont know him well, I have literally met him once in my life, is clearly a top bloke, and very helpful and knowlegable), to understand and give a real, non internet-spec, reply to this whole mess, and see this isnt some kind of stupid forum persona (which is maybe why i seem a bit short with people, as I know people who are giving it the biggun on here but would be much less rude in reality, which is silly, and im a nice person to people who are to me, but of course I would say when I know stuff is wrong, so people being goons on the net just because I disagree winds me up).
If you around your hometown Sunday Ben, ill drive down and show you the car if you like mate, though its honestly not that amazing, ill text you when I sober up 2moro! :Thumbsup! :Thumbsup! :wave
Righty, bedtime, hopefully when I wake up sat and hugely less smashed this will still read ok... :o