Mazda Rotary Club

General => General Technical => Topic started by: airmanuk on April 15, 2004, 09:13:39 AM

Title: 1999 3rd Gen MOT Emissions Failure
Post by: airmanuk on April 15, 2004, 09:13:39 AM
My 1999 unmodified (apart from the exhaust) RX7 has just failed its emissions test.

Due to the fact that it is post 1995, and not listed in VOSA database (RX7 is in it but not with chassis number FD3S.....) it undertook the Basic Emissions Test for CAT equipped cars which it failed. The figures for the fast idle (2500-3000rpm) test were CO 1.97% (Max allowed 0.3%), HC 202ppm (max 200ppm) and Lambda 0.937 (allowed range 0.97 to 1.03).CO in particular seem way out so am I right in thinking it is impossible for an RX-7 to pass this test? Incidently the car did pass on the natural idle test.


I rang up the VOSA help-line and they confirmed that this is the correct test for the RX-7. No mention of doing a non-CAT test if the chassis number is not FD13B2.... The garage also rang them and got the same story. Anyone have a contact there that knows different?

I also rang up the importers who said it should get through the FD13B2 test, but the garage wouldn\'t do this as the car chassis numbers don\'t match.

What do people generally do to resolve this? It has been suggested that modding the air pump solenoid, such that the air pump remains on at higher RPM, might work. However, having just looked at the Mazda Service manual, it implies this cuts off at 3250rpm, so during the test it would have been on.

This situation with post 1995 cars must have been going on for years, yet it is still very difficult to get even a standard car through the emissions test. I can\'t believe that it has not been resolved yet.

Air conditioning was on of course.

Regards.

Neil
Title: Re: 1999 3rd Gen MOT Emissions Failure
Post by: J4P RX on April 15, 2004, 09:18:27 AM
QuoteOriginally posted by airmanuk
What do people generally do to resolve this?

Generally, I would suggesting taking it somewhere for the \'special\' emissions test ;)

:rollin
Title: 1999 3rd Gen MOT Emissions Failure
Post by: Fish on April 15, 2004, 09:58:03 AM
Fit an Apexi to get around this problem. Lean it off for the test (WITHOUT SAVING) then reset it for normal usage.

Fish
Title: 1999 3rd Gen MOT Emissions Failure
Post by: rxangus on April 15, 2004, 01:06:32 PM
An interesting question and one that I have asked being the owner of a post 95 FD.

The possible solutions are:

i) Go a MOT station that "understands" rotary engines!

ii) Fit a replacement ECU and lean it for the test.

iii) Try and pass it off as a pre Aug 95 car to get the less strict test criteria. I obviously wouldn\'t do this (!) but could as I have private plate and therefore no easy way to gauge the age of the vehicle. In fact the seatbelts have 1995 printed on them even though it\'s a 1996 car.

Rgds

Angus
Title: 1999 3rd Gen MOT Emissions Failure
Post by: Andyp on April 15, 2004, 01:12:24 PM
dude take it to the ever so wonderful (guess who\'s getting his car mot\'d this weekend) Thames Valley MOT (http://www.tvmot.com/)  he knows his rx7\'s and will help ya out :D

not far from ya either!
Title: 1999 3rd Gen MOT Emissions Failure
Post by: johnf on April 15, 2004, 01:15:39 PM
There seems no consistency with MOT [along with insurance companies]

Took my .98 into the local garage for mot, passed without any problems. Pretty standard except fot Blitz induction and exhaust systems[with cat].
Title: 1999 3rd Gen MOT Emissions Failure
Post by: Andyp on April 15, 2004, 01:20:05 PM
that\'s why I\'m driving 60 miles to have mine done.. bloomin local mot station has failed me every year I went with my old car, hoping this year will be my first sucessful one now that I got a good car ;)
Title: 1999 3rd Gen MOT Emissions Failure
Post by: davefrith on April 15, 2004, 02:26:47 PM
How can the seatbelts have 95 on them if its a 96 car ?

Just interested :)

Dave
Title: 1999 3rd Gen MOT Emissions Failure
Post by: rxangus on April 15, 2004, 02:33:21 PM
Car manufactured in 1995, first registered in March 1996..... the registration date is what\'s used to determine emissions test type.

Angus
Title: 1999 3rd Gen MOT Emissions Failure
Post by: davefrith on April 15, 2004, 02:36:30 PM
cheers I have the same thing with mine :)

Go to a "friendly" MOT place, saves all the hassle :)

Dave
Title: 1999 3rd Gen MOT Emissions Failure
Post by: Griff on April 16, 2004, 08:57:57 PM
This makes for interesting reading, esp as I am looking for an RX7 at the moment.
Guess I need to find an MOT \'friendly\' garage to do my tests when I get the car.
Title: 1999 3rd Gen MOT Emissions Failure
Post by: Andyp on April 16, 2004, 08:59:08 PM
surry isn\'t far from reading is it? :)
Title: 1999 3rd Gen MOT Emissions Failure
Post by: Griff on April 16, 2004, 09:01:52 PM
QuoteOriginally posted by Andyp
surry isn\'t far from reading is it? :)

No, its a quick trip up the m25 and m4. Takes about 25  - 30 mins from Sutton on a good day. Since I will be moving fairly close/r to Reading (South Aldershot) in the next few weeks, it will be even better for me.
Title: 1999 3rd Gen MOT Emissions Failure
Post by: airmanuk on April 16, 2004, 09:23:01 PM
Thanks for all the replies.

Interesting that JohnF\'s local garage passed it OK. Do you have the readouts still John, and do you know what they tested it against?

As for me, I am taking everyones advice, and head off to Dave\'s in Reading on Monday afternoon.

Regards

Neil
Title: 1999 3rd Gen MOT Emissions Failure
Post by: johnf on April 16, 2004, 10:15:33 PM
I\'ll see if I can find the readouts tomorrow
Title: 1999 3rd Gen MOT Emissions Failure
Post by: rxangus on April 20, 2004, 07:51:32 AM
Thought this might be of interest...

As you can see, post July 95 cars should be tested with a 0.3% CO limit which I believe is near impossible for a standard setup FD!

Angus
Title: 1999 3rd Gen MOT Emissions Failure
Post by: Griff on April 20, 2004, 07:58:35 AM
QuoteOriginally posted by airmanuk
Thanks for all the replies.

Interesting that JohnF\'s local garage passed it OK. Do you have the readouts still John, and do you know what they tested it against?

As for me, I am taking everyones advice, and head off to Dave\'s in Reading on Monday afternoon.

Regards

Neil

How did you get on at Dave\'s in Reading?
Title: 1999 3rd Gen MOT Emissions Failure
Post by: airmanuk on April 20, 2004, 01:49:47 PM
The car passed - Dave is the man. :bandit

Basically he tested the emissions system to make sure its worked as designed - which it does.

Interestingly the emissions are fine up to 2500rpm, at which point the air pump cuts out and hydrocarbons and CO readings go through the roof. Given that the standard CAT Emissions test is run at 2500-3000rpm, then the result of that would always be a fail.

The idea of modding the air pump solenoid to remain permanently on will probably work, although the reason I didn\'t try this at my local place was that my RX-7 manual on CD implied the pump didn\'t cut out until 3250rpm.

So why do VOSA not let the imported RX-7s run the test to the same criteria as the UK CAT equipped RXs? With them, as far as I know, the test is run at an RPM below 2500 such that the air pump stays on, and then there is no problem. The tolerances on the 3 readings are also car specific.

So there is no problem with emissions, just the VOSA don\'t know their arse from their elbow and get us to run the wrong test....:confused:
Title: 1999 3rd Gen MOT Emissions Failure
Post by: Griff on April 20, 2004, 06:48:04 PM
Typical isn\'t it!
Know one car, you know them all - WRONG!
I can\'t believe the VOSA try to test ALL cars based on the same rules. Maybe it makes sense.... but I don\'t the sense in that!

Glad you got it through and are legal again. I will use the same place when my car is in need of a test. Where in Reading is Dave\'s place?

I think it may be worth keeping a note on the forum of Dave\'s garage in case there are others having the same difficulties as you had.
Title: 1999 3rd Gen MOT Emissions Failure
Post by: rxangus on April 20, 2004, 07:07:17 PM
This emissions thing for post Aug 95 cars gets more difficult!

Just off the phone to Pip and asked him if the Apexi was the best way for me to get an MOT emissions pass. He says it is but that I would still need a cat as well. Don\'t really want to pay out for both so will just get a cat for now. At least it should take care off my fuel cut probs.

I\'m a bit annoyed really because it\'s basically impossible for a stock post July 95 import to pass an emissions test in the UK. I think that\'s something I would have taken into account before buying my car if I\'d known about it! I would have either bought a car with aftermarket ECU or a pre Aug 95......

Ah well

Angus
Title: 1999 3rd Gen MOT Emissions Failure
Post by: davefrith on April 21, 2004, 09:01:10 AM
I would have thought it would pass the MOT if it had a CAT ? and an air pump ?
Title: 1999 3rd Gen MOT Emissions Failure
Post by: rxangus on April 21, 2004, 12:28:18 PM
I think the issue is that the fast idle test speed for a post July 95 car is too high so the air pump will be off and the emissions will therefore fail.

Angus
Title: 1999 3rd Gen MOT Emissions Failure
Post by: davefrith on April 21, 2004, 01:37:31 PM
Just use a RX7 friendly garage :)
Title: 1999 3rd Gen MOT Emissions Failure
Post by: rxangus on April 21, 2004, 08:41:57 PM
Well yes but how do you find one? Do you call up and ask if they are sympathetic to rotaries? That\'s just forewarning them that it\'ll have emissions probs at test.

Alternatively do you try one MOT station after another until you get a pass at £40 a time......

Genuinely, how do people go about it??????
Title: 1999 3rd Gen MOT Emissions Failure
Post by: Andyp on April 21, 2004, 11:32:17 PM
hey matey,

seems ya quite far away from Dave, I know it\'s expensive but another option is to have the apexi commander / ecu, turn the fueling right down, that\'s how most people get through :)
Title: 1999 3rd Gen MOT Emissions Failure
Post by: rxangus on April 22, 2004, 07:53:51 AM
Pip says that an Apexi/Commander alone is insufficient as you can\'t get the hydrocarbons down enough to pass the test so you still need a cat as well.

As I said it seems impossible to get a stock post July 95 car to pass the emissions test. That\'s what I wish I\'d known before I bought my \'96
Title: 1999 3rd Gen MOT Emissions Failure
Post by: davefrith on April 22, 2004, 08:47:46 AM
at the end of the day it seems your only option is to take the long drive down south

It will be expensive, but you knew owning a Rex would be, and its only once a year

Dave
Title: 1999 3rd Gen MOT Emissions Failure
Post by: rxangus on April 24, 2004, 11:34:45 AM
What if the air pump was wired to stay on regardless of revs? Am I right in thinking that this would let it sail through the fast idle emissions?

Angus
Title: 1999 3rd Gen MOT Emissions Failure
Post by: maximtaylor on April 24, 2004, 01:28:45 PM
I reckon that\'s a good option Angus.

When I got hold of a year 2000 rx7 recently, I noticed a rather odd looking non-standard bunch of wires and a fuse holder attached to the air pump wiring.

It had me perplexed for a while as to what it was, but must have been for getting the vehicle through emissions.

Which wires need to be put together I don\'t know :)

Regards

Max
Title: 1999 3rd Gen MOT Emissions Failure
Post by: Martiny on April 24, 2004, 07:07:19 PM
As far as I know, the air pump is on all the time below1800 rpm anyway.

You can find the air pump relay in the row of relays right in the fornt of the engine compartment. Just run a positive 12v lead there and connect to the + leg of the relay to keep the relay picked all the time, and there you are.

I did it to get mine through SVA, but I dont think it really helped!
Title: 1999 3rd Gen MOT Emissions Failure
Post by: rxangus on April 25, 2004, 12:03:47 PM
Thanks for that....

I think the fast idle test is above 2500 rpm though so air pump will by default be off at that speed I believe.

Just to recap I\'m thinking of trying to get a 1996 through MOT emissions with a cat and standard ECU.

I\'ll have a look at the air pump power supply today and see what I can do. I\'m thinking along the lines of adding a switched permanent 12V.

Maybe a silly question but why did Mazda not just keep the air pump powered until say 3500rpm and the emissions would have been greatly improved. Might even have stopped the 7 being killed off so soon in the States??

Angus
Title: 1999 3rd Gen MOT Emissions Failure
Post by: rxangus on April 25, 2004, 02:02:35 PM
Okay I\'ve had a look at the schematics and it seems that the air pump is controlled as follows:

A dc voltage from the ECU is used to energise the air pump relay coil. When the relay coil is energised the contacts are shorted. One of the contacts is always at earth potential so basically the relay is used to provide a switched ground to the air pump ie it will see +12V all the time but only runs when grounded.

Off to look/measure in the car but in principle I don\'t see why it shouldn\'t be possible to make an adapter that replaces the stock relay and operates as follows:

New relay which closes contacts under control of a switched ignition voltage. This would mean that the air pump would run anytime the ignition is on regardless of the ECU output.

Does anyone know if the stock ECU senses coil current flow when it energises a relay or is it just dumb?

The $64000 dollar question is whether anyone thinks I will definitely pass the emissions test with a permanently running air pump and cat??

Angus
Title: 1999 3rd Gen MOT Emissions Failure
Post by: bnaellis on April 25, 2004, 04:27:15 PM
No There more to it than that.
Title: 1999 3rd Gen MOT Emissions Failure
Post by: ScuttleRX on May 05, 2004, 03:35:58 PM
Ive got my mot tomorrow afternoon, on a 96 with cat, cat-back exhaust, apexi filters and a downpipe, and a power fc

From searching through threads ive found about 4 recommendations for getting through, can anyone give their opinion on these
1/ make sure engine is v warm (presume warm intake temps will lean out fuelling slightly)
2/ have air con on full whack
3/ or 4/ either put stock ecu back in, or lean out the apexi which im not sure how to do, can anyone describe how to do this?

cheers

Andy
Title: 1999 3rd Gen MOT Emissions Failure
Post by: davefrith on May 05, 2004, 03:37:25 PM
I would suggest you go to a rex friendly garage, those mods are the same as mine and that what I had to do
Title: 1999 3rd Gen MOT Emissions Failure
Post by: ScuttleRX on May 05, 2004, 03:43:13 PM
yeah have sent an email off to thames valley to see if they have any slots free, just really trying to avoid having to go as its miiiles away. Wouldn\'t mind normally its just im working every hour under sun and cant be bothered with stuff like this on my weekends off!

Maybe the garage im booked in will be rotor friendly, he does drive a modded up pulsar so he might have some sympathy, jap car allegiance and all that:D