OK, most of the Jury is in on this one...
There are 2-3 issues that are causing engine failures in Series I RX-8\'s.
1. Carbon
2. Apex Seal Failure.
3. Damaged Side Seal.
1. Carbon Builds up because owners drive their cars at 3000-3500 RPM all the time, you must red-line a day (when engine is hot). Carbon can cause a sticking Apex Seal and Cause poor compressions.
There is a De-Carboning Technique that can help....can...
2. The MOP (Metering Oil Pump) is fatally flawed on the Series I RX-8, it only supplies oil (not enough also) to the corners of the Apex Seal..NOT THE MIDDLE, so over time the centre of the Apex Seal wears a concave face into the seal...causing blow back...bad compressions.
3. Some engines are breaking a side seal which does a lot of damage.
If your engine is OVER 50,000 miles the damage is already done, if you have a low mileage RX-8 I strongly urge you to ADD a Pre-mix to your FUEL TANK at a rate of 4 mils per litre of fuel...every time you fill up.
That is a 2 Cylinder good quality Synthetic BIKE OIL.
OR add Pre-Mix is you have a new engine...
Good advice, I\'ve just had a new motor fitted after a catastrophic failure of mine with little or no warning.
As for issue two, I don\'t believe the MOP is entirely to blame, however I think it\'s the oil feed to the oil injectors on the rear rotor, a lot of the engines that fail, mine included fail with loss of compression on the rear rotor. I\'ll be using protec R on my new engine to prevent just this problem. The R3 Engine has three oil injection ports, whereas the older motor has only two, I think the R3 motor will not suffer from these problems.
By 2 cylinder, do we mean 2 -stroke bike oil? As in what would be used in older scooters and 125\'s?
So am I to understand that as my car hs got 51000 miles on it it has been scrap for the last 1000 miles as "the damage is allready done" regardless of how it is performing?
Pre-mixing soundls like very good advice but as my car is over the limit do you have any practicle advice apart from gutted? Like should I have the engine pulled apart and have the apex seal replaced before everything blows, or is this just as costly as waiting and getting a full replacement?
I don\'t mean to sound short but I feel left a little empty and shunned by this claim as I am 1k over the get lost, too late mileage.
Also in an earlier thread on this forum you state the limit as 30000 miles and 2ml oil per litre of fuel. Thats a big difference
I think most of the failures I have seen is from granny driving by looking at the rx8 engines on Reworx garage floor, I think you will be ok Nick so long as you regularly rev the things out, plenty of 8s last over 100k.
Reworx say its mostly carbon build up from driving the 8s incorrectly (short shifting) and not reving them like they are suppossed to
Thanks for the reply Blitzboy. I feel a bit better now.
I certainly do rev it regularly and keep the oil topped up and fresh. Geff at Reworx did my last service at 50000 and seemed quite happy that it was in a good condition and drove well. I have it booked in for a hi flow cat and exhaust soon.
I am a full member of the RX8OC but for some reason thought this forum was all about rx7\'s. I will get on the members list soon as I can.
Glad to hear that will is back on the mean streets of Pompey as last I heard was a CEL and a bleak outlook.
Quote from: Gavin_RX8;597060By 2 cylinder, do we mean 2 -stroke bike oil? As in what would be used in older scooters and 125\'s?
Yes, a good quality 2 stoke oil that mixes with Fuel.
I use Amsoil Saber Pro..it is 100% sythetic...
DO NOT USE CASTOR BASE OILS or Upper Cylinder Lubricants or TCW3 Marine 2 Stroke oils.
Quote from: nicktyler;597093So am I to understand that as my car hs got 51000 miles on it it has been scrap for the last 1000 miles as "the damage is allready done" regardless of how it is performing?
Pre-mixing soundls like very good advice but as my car is over the limit do you have any practicle advice apart from gutted? Like should I have the engine pulled apart and have the apex seal replaced before everything blows, or is this just as costly as waiting and getting a full replacement?
I don\'t mean to sound short but I feel left a little empty and shunned by this claim as I am 1k over the get lost, too late mileage.
Also in an earlier thread on this forum you state the limit as 30000 miles and 2ml oil per litre of fuel. Thats a big difference
Sorry, I can\'t help that you are over or at a high mileage.
If you are the original owner approach Mazda Europe or your dealer for assistance.
Get a compression test done, if the results are good, then you can pre-mix and IMO it will help and you could extend life of your seals.
2 mils per litre is a minimum, I am now doing 4 mils per litre.
Really, if your engine is gone, you are better off having a full rebuild, you really can not just replace the Apex Seals as you might as well do a full rebuild , the extra cost is minimal or the same.
Quote from: nicktyler;597103I am a full member of the RX8OC but for some reason thought this forum was all about rx7\'s. I will get on the members list soon as I can.
No we love all things rotary. :Thumbs-up
I agree that when I spoke to my dealer about what to do to try and stop my engine going pop he said two things - keep the oil topped up and use the revs! They have an elderly RX-8 owner who actually gets them to take it out for a good blast every now and then!
I also thought I had to be careful about not going over 5k revs until she was warmed up because unlike the R3 the old 8\'s don\'t have any sort of limiter to prevent damage - but apparently they do! They just advertise this as a new feature on the R3.
I\'ve driven my car properly since it was new - always varying the revs and red lining most journeys. I honestly think she runs better now that ever - I just hope it stays that way as us Bankers can\'t afford a new car or an engine rebuild!
Based on what i\'m reading, i think i shal be experimenting with pre-mix albeit in small quantities at first, also going to switch to that oil that was developed especially for the rotory....cant remember what its called at the mo but its not much more expensive than the one i was using.
Quote from: BlitzBoy;597095I think most of the failures I have seen is from granny driving by looking at the rx8 engines on Reworx garage floor, I think you will be ok Nick so long as you regularly rev the things out, plenty of 8s last over 100k.
Reworx say its mostly carbon build up from driving the 8s incorrectly (short shifting) and not reving them like they are suppossed to
While that is partly true, slow revving will produce carbon build up which kills the engine, you can not nanny a rotary.
The parts that is not correct is the Series 1 RX-8 MOP is Flawed, it does not lubricate the middle of the Apex Seal...this is a fact, why do you think Mazda added a 3rd injector in the middle of the Apex seal to lubricate in the new RX-8?, because they thought it was a good idea?.
Pre- mixing is the ONLY way to lubricate this area of the seal.
The highest RX-8 I have actually seen (I know the South African owner) was just over 200,000 KMs or 120,000 miles, his engine has just been rebuilt.
He is a rep and on road ALL the time and drives Long distances, Ideal conditions for a rotary.
If you do not red-line your engine at least once a day (when hot) you will have Carbon issues WELL before 100K, it just won\'t make that mileage.
Approx, 30% of all RX-8\'s in the US have had their engines renewed.
Some are on their 3rd.
Look I am not trying to frighten anyone, knowledge is good, please use the Internet and look through the US Forums a little....
I own the Luxury version of the R3, you guys don\'t get it in the UK, it is the exact same engine as the R3 with the extra nozzle and two Electric Metering Oil Pumps, and I still pre-mix. 4 mils now per litre.
You will improve your engines compressions, better performance, lubricate all seals better and peace of mind.
Quote from: AMH;597113No we love all things rotary. :Thumbs-up
I agree that when I spoke to my dealer about what to do to try and stop my engine going pop he said two things - keep the oil topped up and use the revs! They have an elderly RX-8 owner who actually gets them to take it out for a good blast every now and then!
I also thought I had to be careful about not going over 5k revs until she was warmed up because unlike the R3 the old 8\'s don\'t have any sort of limiter to prevent damage - but apparently they do! They just advertise this as a new feature on the R3.
I\'ve driven my car properly since it was new - always varying the revs and red lining most journeys. I honestly think she runs better now that ever - I just hope it stays that way as us Bankers can\'t afford a new car or an engine rebuild!
Shows how much your dealer really knows?
Quote from: Gavin_RX8;597114also going to switch to that oil that was developed especially for the rotory....cant remember what its called at the mo but its not much more expensive than the one i was using.
Oh no - not the great oil debate! :Giggle There is plenty of info about that on here Gavin so have a good read.
Quote from: RX-8888;597117If you do not red-line your engine at least once a day (when hot) you will have Carbon issues WELL before 100K, it just won\'t make that mileage.
I totaly agree with you on that one - definately the advise from my dealer (although some of us don\'t drive our rotaries every day - can\'t afford the petrol!) I don\'t need an excuse to open her up. At least twice a week I do a good 20 mile run and red line at least a couple of times each journey - part of the fun of owning a rotary!
Quote from: RX-8888;597123Shows how much your dealer really knows?
They are agreeing with you about regularly red-lining so are you saying they are wrong about not being able to do any real damage when cold? I\'ve never tried over-reving when cold so I wouldn\'t know if there\'s a limiter or not.
One thing to remember dont over premix, putting too much oil into your petrol will lower the octane level as you still have the OMP active . 20 mil per 10 litres should be good enough anymore you will be lowering the octane level of the fuel
Quote from: RX-8888;597112Sorry, I can\'t help that you are over or at a high mileage.
Sorry but I can\'t help that either but it is a very defeatist attitude to just say it\'s too late. I\'m not just giving up on a car I love that easy. We can\'t all afford luxury R3\'s even if we were worthy enough to get them in the UK.
You said yourself that you have known an RX8 run to 120,000 miles. How did the owner get this to run 70,000 miles with an apparently broken engine?
That is the information us 50k+ers need to know.
so is this is the case - should EVERY owner premix regardless if its a 7 or a 8 ??
lol, why does it seem that all the problems with engines happen in the majority of Australia and New Zealand 8\'s????
I speak to our Mazda dealer quite regulary as the 8 goes there for all its work and they have never said about the oil problem. Carbon build up shouldnt be a problem as its gets ragged silly once warmed up. If there was a flaw in the OMP in the 8 then surely if the seals do go then this will be a issue that Mazda would have to fix on your car if its a known flaw?
The 7 gets premix as i binned the OMP, but for the 8, i will go with what my dealer says
I,m pretty sure the cold telp limiter is there as i accidentally hit it a couple of times when losing traction in the snow this winter, seemed to cut power at about 5-6k. Anyone else experienced this?
Certainly i will read up a lot l=more before choosing an oil for its oil change, but needs to happen fairly soon.
I have definitely experienced this cold limiter once when I dropped my door key on the floor just after starting and when I bent down to feel for it I floored the pedal with my foot just for a second and it revved to 4.5k bounced once and came back down as I panicked and bashed my head on the steering wheel. At the time I wondered why it didn\'t go higher but it is all clear now. :Hammer
As always with the RX8 the best bet is to get it thoroughly warmed through, it takes 10 minutes for the internal temp to reach 83 degrees C on my Camp II. I give it another few minutes just to ensure the oil is up to temp and then give it full throttle to 9k regularly, I even drop it into second or third on the motorway doing about 50-60 mph and give it right up to 9000rpm +. I have no idea why mine died but it was not like a gradual loss of compression, the car was running fine, I got a few miles of misfire, sparks and then no compression on rotor two.
There is a theory running around that the Nikasil liners on the Rotor housing have manufacteuring flaws that cause their inevitable breakup and loss of compression. That has certainly been the case with a few of the early failures I\'ve heard about and there is something of a precedent, BMW M52 engines had a similar problem in their early time.
What about the RX7 engine....I mean surely mazda wouldnt have gone backwards in terms of oiling of the engine when building the new RX8 engine, after the RX7!?
That said, I\'ve know of a few RX7 engines doing over 100k!!
I guess mine will be a test....done over 10,000miles in a year! :D:3gears-lh
Quote from: RX-8888;597123Shows how much your dealer really knows?
Looks like my dealer does know what they\'re talking about then!
so is it advised to put 2ml of 2 stroke oil for ever 10lt of petrol in the rx7 aswell then?
because i do remember a guy from www.rotaryaviation.com (http://www.rotaryaviation.com/) saying
If you want to get the longest possible life from the engine, add about 4 to 5 ounces of Marvel Mystery Oil or any good 2 stroke oil in every tank of gas. If you eliminate the oil injection system, use 1 oz of oil per gallon of fuel. Thats what we do on our airplanes with rotary engines.
nuki, did you mean to say 2 ml per 1 lt not 10?
Quoteso is it advised to put 2ml of 2 stroke oil for ever 10lt of petrol in the rx7 aswell then?
because i do remember a guy from //www.rotaryaviation.com saying
i would go wirh what Bltz said,
Oh dear, like Nick, looks like you\'re saying I\'ve missed the boat here too -- 51K miles, and no premix? :2Rolleyes
Driven every day since new, always topped up with oil, always warmed up well, and revved to 9K in every gear thereafter... :3gears-rh :D
Therefore, I\'ll take your \'advice\' with a pinch of salt, because even though you\'re saying the R3 obviously fixes this terminal problem with an extra oil injector per rotor -- you still reckon you need to add the snake-oil to your fuel. How come? :xconfused
Or maybe I\'ll take you up on it -- ask Mazda for a new engine, because mine\'s obviously buggered now, and start adding some pre-mix... I\'ll also get one of those electric (or even non-driven) \'superchargers\', maybe some fuel-line magnets and a resistor from fleaBay and improve both the HP *and* MPG by a shed-load too! :rolleyes: :Hammer
There\'s plenty of \'8s that have 100K+ miles on them, with no signs of problems, and I don\'t believe that nearly 1/3rd of \'8s have engine failure (certainly not in the UK!).
Of course, we do happen to see a condensed view on these forums, because it\'s the first place people come when they have a problem.
I do also believe the majority of the failures are down to owner ignorance with oil top-ups and probably rarely taking it over 4000RPM, and there are probably a handful of Friday-afternoon lemons in there too.
I\'m convinced that if there was a large-scale problem, and premix was the answer, I\'d have had a letter from Mazda by now? OK, well maybe not considering how they handled the oil-cooler pipes issue ;)
Care to post this advice over on //www.rx8ownersclub.co.uk too? ;)
easiest thing is if your engine does go like this then Mazda are bound to replace the engine free of charge as an engine shouldnt go with circa 50k miles on it. We have 63k on ours and its never missed a beat and everytime its been serviced it always comes back with a clean bill of health with no problems ever.
If Mazda know of these problems then legally they are bound to inform the customer as per Sean above. I\'ll pop down to Mazda tomorrow and ask them, if they say its rubbish then thats good enough for me
Quote from: seanp;597253Or maybe I\'ll take you up on it -- ask Mazda for a new engine, because mine\'s obviously buggered now, and start adding some pre-mix... I\'ll also get one of those electric (or even non-driven) \'superchargers\', maybe some fuel-line magnets and a resistor from fleaBay and improve both the HP *and* MPG by a shed-load too! :rolleyes: :Hammer
:Giggle:Giggle I agree with you Sean - every engine problem my dealer has seen has been suspect. Someone the dealership has never seen before comes in with an engine problem - most of which Mazda has coughed up on.
Quote from: AshRX;597255If Mazda know of these problems then legally they are bound to inform the customer as per Sean above. I\'ll pop down to Mazda tomorrow and ask them, if they say its rubbish then thats good enough for me
And why wouldn\'t they give out this advice if they knew it would help stop engine problems? Let us know what your dealer says Ash.
Will do Ann as hopefully this will put a lot of peoples minds at rest
Quote from: AshRX;597255easiest thing is if your engine does go like this then Mazda are bound to replace the engine free of charge as an engine shouldnt go with circa 50k miles on it. We have 63k on ours and its never missed a beat and everytime its been serviced it always comes back with a clean bill of health with no problems ever.
If Mazda know of these problems then legally they are bound to inform the customer as per Sean above. I\'ll pop down to Mazda tomorrow and ask them, if they say its rubbish then thats good enough for me
Quite a few peeps have had to stump up a good %age for engine replacements, unless you have a *very* good dealer relationship (i.e. one who does all the pushing for you), and a exemplary (and recorded) service history. Otherwise you\'re in for Mazdas \'good will\' scheme or on your own :(
I don\'t agree it\'s correct -- and I think I\'d fight tooth and nail too, if it failed anytime soon (or anything under 100K)! Especially since they seem to have extended the US engine warranty, but not EU in line.
As for asking them -- some of \'em don\'t even know the correct oil type or at least think that ONLY their over-priced stuff is acceptable, though we all know the truth ;)
Quote from: AshRX;597278Will do Ann as hopefully this will put a lot of peoples minds at rest
Indeed I would be interested -- sorry about the diatribe above -- in a bad mood about other things right now :spank ;)
Quote from: seanp;597253Oh dear, like Nick, looks like you\'re saying I\'ve missed the boat here too -- 51K miles, and no premix? :2Rolleyes
Driven every day since new, always topped up with oil, always warmed up well, and revved to 9K in every gear thereafter... :3gears-rh :D
Therefore, I\'ll take your \'advice\' with a pinch of salt, because even though you\'re saying the R3 obviously fixes this terminal problem with an extra oil injector per rotor -- you still reckon you need to add the snake-oil to your fuel. How come? :xconfused
Or maybe I\'ll take you up on it -- ask Mazda for a new engine, because mine\'s obviously buggered now, and start adding some pre-mix... I\'ll also get one of those electric (or even non-driven) \'superchargers\', maybe some fuel-line magnets and a resistor from fleaBay and improve both the HP *and* MPG by a shed-load too! :rolleyes: :Hammer
There\'s plenty of \'8s that have 100K+ miles on them, with no signs of problems, and I don\'t believe that nearly 1/3rd of \'8s have engine failure (certainly not in the UK!).
Of course, we do happen to see a condensed view on these forums, because it\'s the first place people come when they have a problem.
I do also believe the majority of the failures are down to owner ignorance with oil top-ups and probably rarely taking it over 4000RPM, and there are probably a handful of Friday-afternoon lemons in there too.
I\'m convinced that if there was a large-scale problem, and premix was the answer, I\'d have had a letter from Mazda by now? OK, well maybe not considering how they handled the oil-cooler pipes issue ;)
Care to post this advice over on //www.rx8ownersclub.co.uk too? ;)
Gee you are a sarcastic one....
The reason I will continue to pre-mix as it won\'t hurt my 09 RX-8..it only has benefits, and I know Mazda, they are very conservative with their MOP rates, look at all the flashes done to PCM for Series I.
I also look at the amount of engine oil my 8 is using and it ain\'t much.
\'Snake oil\'...NO it is a Lubricant just like Mowers and Bikes (2 Stroke), the rotary is in theory a 2 Stroke, that is why OIL is required by the MOP to LUBRICATE Apex seals.
You can believe ALL that you want mate....Frankly I do not care what you think...just don\'t be ignorant, look at other WORLD Sites for both RX-8 and RX-7..the principals are identical.
At the moment there are 360 engines being replaced every month in the US,
our US club has a member who works at the new US reman plant, he posts info ALL the time.
Yes, it was only a year or so ago Mazda UK said there was not many engine replacements, yeah right. Since then there have been UK owners who have had failures.
You have to remember the US owners do far more miles than you guys in the UK so their engine have done a lot more work.
As I said before Mazda will NEVER tell you to add pre-mix into your fuel...I wonder why...think about it...
Why do ALL racing rotaries add oil to fuel? at a ratio much greater than suggested here, they also remove the MOP because they are inefficient.
BTW, My dealer in Australia (where I once worked) and where I bought my RX-8 last year has replaced 14 engines, they sell around 40 new Mazda\'s a month.
Mazda Australia are also setting up a reman facility at a Queensland dealer because the cost of putting Brand New one\'s in is too great.
BTW the old engines were going in the Dumpster, now they will go up to Queensland for a rebuild...this is happening as I speak.
So, I guess UK or MME will be doing similar.
Quote from: AshRX;597255easiest thing is if your engine does go like this then Mazda are bound to replace the engine free of charge as an engine shouldnt go with circa 50k miles on it. We have 63k on ours and its never missed a beat and everytime its been serviced it always comes back with a clean bill of health with no problems ever.
If Mazda know of these problems then legally they are bound to inform the customer as per Sean above. I\'ll pop down to Mazda tomorrow and ask them, if they say its rubbish then thats good enough for me
OMG, for a person who has the same Christian name as me , don\'t be so naive, of course your dealer is going to say there is not a problem...
OPEN YOUR EYES....LOOK AROUND..
You are not Special in the UK, every country has had the same issue, FAILED COMPRESSIONS, dues to STUFFED APEX SEALS (lubricant), or Broken Side Seal and or Carbon build up..
You POMS make me Laugh :D
I have the same Christian name as you? So what
The dealer that does the work on the 8\'s round my way is a good friend of mine and he has NEVER heard of this. Maybe your saying this as you have bad luck with yours but funny how not one 8 that was bought from this dealership ( biggest in Essex ) has NEVER had an engine back and every single RX8 is still running strong that they have sold.
I am not disagreeing with you on carbon build up as most 8 owners realise they need to give the engine a good thrashing but the dealers here have never heard of this oil problem.
I think this might be a good idea for Clive to speak to Mazda HQ directly as he has a very good relationship with them.
INDEED!
Well I suggest you take a look through other Rotary Websites outside of the UK and Bone Up on it.
An no I have not had "Bad Luck" with mine, I actually never said anything to the contrary.
I fact in my 35 years of Driving and Owning all types of Mazda\'s and Working for them for 15 years plus I think I have some sort of "experience" with rotaries.
From a New 10A RX-3, to 13B RX-5 and RX-8. And demo RX-7\'s (all Gen).
The "Oil Problem" to repeat it again is to do with the MOP (Metering Oil PUMP), your RX-8 has 2 injectors for each housing, the 2009 RX-8\'s have 3, an extra one in the middle.
So why would it not be an issue if Mazda did not add an extra 2 oil Nozzles?
If your mate is so Knowledgeable Ask Him, Why has Mazda changes their entire Oil Metering Set up from one mechanical OMP to now two Electromagnetic MOP\'s, one pump supplies the original 4 nozzles and the other the new 2 ones.
And Why have Mazda changes the Main Engine OIL PUMP to a more robust and High Pressure Type?..
If he can\'t give you the answer then I suggest he should "Learn" why.
Yes, I have given Clive some information a few years back on the Synthetic Oil debate and heds up on the Engine Replacements, Mazda UK\'s reply was there was not a problem, just like today, so why are so many engines being replaced?..
10 a day in the US, so if you work out averages for the 80 mil populous in the UK, about 4% or 12 a month for the UK.
Would you like me to have My Dealer\'s Parts Manager to email you on how many engines (14) they have replace at the Edwardstown, South Australian Mazda Branch?.
Here is a pic of the new Series II RENESIS Rotor Housing and the 3 Oil Nozzles, see the "Leading" new one in the middle, that lubricates the middle of the Apex Seals, or perhaps you think it is there for another reason?
BTW: Keeping your engine oil FULL (Topped OFF) is a good idea but has nothing to do with the actual operation or efficiency of the single MOP.
Pre-Mix will greatly assist your lubrication of the Middle part of the Apex Seal, there is NO other way to do it.
(http://www.mazdarotaryclub.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=43437&stc=1&d=1239246061)
Here is a list of ALL the Mechanical Changes to the New RX-8 (R3).
And a link to my thread on the issues in more detail ( I am ASH8 user)
http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?t=161665
New Powertrain Control Module (PCM)
New Larger Genuine Oil Filter and Repositioned On Front Timing Cover Housing To-wards The Sump (Left Hand Side).
Revised Oil Filler and Dip Stick (Longer Type).
New EMOP "Electric Metering Oil Pumps" Two of them. (Used for the first time by Mazda)
One Additional Oil Injection Nozzle per Rotor Housing..Totalling 6.
New Oil Pump Assembly.
New Oil Pressure Sensor (Located on #1 EMOP).
Larger Oil Sump Capacity.
New Hex (8mm) Type Sump Drain Plug.
Internal Sump Pan Magnet (last used in the 89 FC RX-7)
New External Silver Plate Engine Sump Guard.
Revised 4 Fuel Injection Nozzles (2 Primary, 2 Secondary). (Series I six Port Engine had 6 FI Nozzles).
Revised Atmospheric Air Control Solenoid (Near Throttle Body)
New Fuel Pump.
New Radiator Electric Fan Motors.
Revised Radiator Fans Speeds from 2 to 3 Speeds. (Low, Middle, High).
New Alternator.
New Starter Motor.
New Battery 80D26L. (80 AMP Hour) (Was 50D22L (50AH) or 75D26L (75AH) in Series I)
New Exhaust System.
New Yaw Rate Sensor Unit.
New Air Conditioner Temperature Controller (Amplifier).
New Bridgestone RE050A\'s in 18" and 19" (R3).
New Manual Transmission (6 speed MX-5/Miata) (Reverse is now next to 1st gear not next to 6th gear).
New Differential Ratio (Manual).
New Differential Fixing Plate Washer on PPF (Power Plant Frame).
Changed Throw Out Bearing (Thrust or Fork Bearing).
Larger Oil Coolers and Intakes.
Extra Rotor Knock Sensor (Now 1 per Rotor, Total Of 2).
New Water Pump/ New Timing Cover to suit.
New Water Pump Pulley.
New Spark Plug Leads.
New Alternator/Air Compressor Drive Belts.
Revised Eccentric Shaft (Crankshaft) Pulley.
Revised Oxygen Sensor (CAT).
Revised Air/Fuel Ratio Sensor (Exhaust Manifold).
New Air Pump Control Unit.
New One Piece Trans Tunnel Heat Shield (Previously Two Piece).
New Under Body Covers Reducing C Drag from 0.31 to now 0.30.
Larger Fuel Tank (5 litres extra or around a gallon).
New Dynamic Stability Control (DSC) Hydraulic Unit Control Module.
New Rear Suspension Control Links (Rods) Upper/Lower and Trailing have Increased In Diameter.
New Rear Stabilizer Bar.
New Rear Shocks And Springs.
New Rear Parking Brake Cables.
New ABS Wheel Sensors (All 4 Wheels).
Revised TPMS (Tire Pressure Monitoring System) US Only.
New Front Upper And Front Lower Suspension Arms (Wishbone).
New Front Steering Knuckles And Wheel Hubs.
Revised Power Steering Control System Unit.
Revised Headlamp Auto Leveling Sensors.
New 3 Piece (Instead of 2) Strut Tower Brace (Manual Only), Auto\'s Retains Two Piece Tower Brace.
Revised Rear Wheel Arch Splash Guards/Shields.
Thicker (Heavier Guage) Steel On The Two Front Strut Towers.
Additional Spot Weldings Around Both Door Openings For Increased Rigidity.
Stiffened Body Shell = Torsional (twisting) and Flexural (bending) Rigidity have been increased by 5.4 and 8.7 per cent respectively.
Auto\'s and Manual\'s both have 6 port engines, Max Power RPM (kw) has been limited to 7500 for Auto compared to 8200 RPM for the manual.
So....after all that!! Should we add pre-mix to the RX7!?!?! :P
WTF! :eek: You\'ve forgotten the new seats which don\'t have electronic adjustment or a heated leather option - I\'d miss my bum warmer (it\'s cold in the UK you know!)
Quote from: RX-8888;59743110 a day in the US, so if you work out averages for the 80 mil populous in the UK, about 4% or 12 a month for the UK.
Would you like me to have My Dealer\'s Parts Manager to email you on how many engines (14) they have replace at the Edwardstown, South Australian Mazda Branch?.
You\'re not getting it are you - these so called facts and figures are all very interesting but we\'re in the UK so with all due respect we don\'t really care what\'s happening in the US or OZ.
There are so many variables plus we can\'t validate any of this data properly. If my dealer, who I\'ve been with for 15 years, and who were the largest dealer in Europe, tells me to do or not do something then I will, and if I get a letter from Mazda I\'ll do the same. I know so many people with RX-8\'s and I\'ve never heard of this or anyone having an engine failure for this reason.
If you don\'t like it tough - you\'re not going to help me out if my engine goes bang are you?
Quote from: RX-8888;597382The reason I will continue to pre-mix as it won\'t hurt my 09 RX-8..it only has benefits, and I know Mazda, they are very conservative with their MOP rates, look at all the flashes done to PCM for Series I.
I also look at the amount of engine oil my 8 is using and it ain\'t much.
I see, your monitoring of your oil level usage (which is probably no more accurate than seeing the dip-stick level reduce every x000 miles and adding half a litre?) overrides all of the R&D that Mazda have carried out, statistics and evidence they\'ve collected etc., re-designing, re-tooling all at great expense, and obviously shouldn\'t have bothered with because they\'ve quite simply got it wrong (again!) :2Confused
Quote from: RX-8888;597382\'Snake oil\'...NO it is a Lubricant just like Mowers and Bikes (2 Stroke), the rotary is in theory a 2 Stroke, that is why OIL is required by the MOP to LUBRICATE Apex seals.
But it\'s NOT a two-stroke! It\'s also not a V8, Diesel etc., which all have different design and lubrication requirements. (Hint the principal is
similar to two-stroke, the design boundaries and execution are rather different!)
Which is why they provide Oil metering in the first place, rather than leaving it out and
depending on a more inaccurate method of putting an additive into the fuel mix, at some difficult to judge ratio (and changing in your case!)
Quote from: RX-8888;597382You can believe ALL that you want mate....Frankly I do not care what you think...just don\'t be ignorant, look at other WORLD Sites for both RX-8 and RX-7..the principals are identical.
I do, I also don\'t try to preach my religion, whatever it may be, to others through supposition.
Quote from: RX-8888;597382At the moment there are 360 engines being replaced every month in the US, our US club has a member who works at the new US reman plant, he posts info ALL the time.
Wow, that\'s a nice, consistent rate. Out of how many sales?
Quote from: RX-8888;597382Yes, it was only a year or so ago Mazda UK said there was not many engine replacements, yeah right.
Did they, to you? They were probably correct, given the number in existence?
Quote from: RX-8888;597382Since then there have been UK owners who have had failures.
Since then there have been UK owners who have not had failures (I being one).
(What were you trying to say - UK owners have ONLY had failures in the past year? That\'s incorrect too.)
Quote from: RX-8888;597382You have to remember the US owners do far more miles than you guys in the UK so their engine have done a lot more work.
Says who? All of them do more mileage than me?
Quote from: RX-8888;597382As I said before Mazda will NEVER tell you to add pre-mix into your fuel...I wonder why...
I haven\'t said it before, but Mazda would NEVER tell you to add sugar to your fuel... I wonder why... :)
Quote from: RX-8888;597382think about it...
Please, help me -- seriously, why?
(IMO, if there were a real benefit, it would most definitely be in Mazda\'s interest to say so, and insist on the additives; there\'d be a huge cost benefit with not having to cover engine replacements under warranty / good-will, and they\'d also turn the sales of the additive into a cash-cow, like their oil ;)
Communicating the fact to their existing owners, many of whom are completely ignorant to the requirement of topping up oil at all, [the biggest cause of engine failures according to the dealers we\'ve talked to here in the UK])
Quote from: RX-8888;597382Why do ALL racing rotaries add oil to fuel? at a ratio much greater than suggested here, they also remove the MOP because they are inefficient.
Oh, so, now we\'re all to treat our motors as racing cars now, are we? That also means I definintely need to uprate my suspension, zorst, tyres, roll-cage, remove excessive weight etc. etc, because ALL (well, most) will do that too?
Different context, mate; similar things are done to racing pot engines too (including dry-sumping, and oil metering, ironically!)
Quote from: RX-8888;597382BTW, My dealer in Australia (where I once worked) and where I bought my RX-8 last year has replaced 14 engines, they sell around 40 new Mazda\'s a month.
Figures of one dealer are nothing to go on -- perhaps they have a lot of ignorant buyers?
Quote from: RX-8888;597382Mazda Australia are also setting up a reman facility at a Queensland dealer because the cost of putting Brand New one\'s in is too great.
BTW the old engines were going in the Dumpster, now they will go up to Queensland for a rebuild...this is happening as I speak.
So, I guess UK or MME will be doing similar.
No doubt -- it makes sense to bring rebuilding onto shore as market forces will dictate there will be more engines to rebuild through time, and Mazda make the kits and skills available to be able to do so. Much cheaper than shipping them back to Japan, and much \'greener\' to be seen to \'recycle\' than to dump? I\'d be surprised if a similar pattern was not followed in early history of previous generation engines?
I simply find your proposal illogical, and you fail to cite any real facts which would convince me otherwise (and that convincing, BTW, would actually need to come from Mazda UK, not yourself).
You cite that because I\'ve done >50K miles I\'m doomed because I didn\'t use pre-mix, and there\'s no point in starting now, I\'m already doomed. Where\'s the facts to back that up? Why an arbitrary number? Why not 51K, 60K, 55,555.5 miles?
You proposed that because YOU put an additive in, we all MUST? Why?
You cite this is because Mazda have incorrectly designed the oil metering; yet they\'ve addressed this in the R3 and you STILL insist on pre-mix. Why?
etc. etc. etc.
In my local dealership they have quite a number of RX8\'s that are over 150,000 miles on original engine\'s that are not running premix. They have had only one engine failure out of over 400 RX8\'s sold,and that was due to the car not being serviced from new for 14,000 miles.Not really Mazda\'s fault.
Most of these cars are early ones with two oil metering feeds to the rotor housings.
Regards
Carl
Quote from: AMH;597451WTF! :eek: You\'ve forgotten the new seats which don\'t have electronic adjustment or a heated leather option - I\'d miss my bum warmer (it\'s cold in the UK you know!)
You\'re not getting it are you - these so called facts and figures are all very interesting but we\'re in the UK so with all due respect we don\'t really care what\'s happening in the US or OZ.
There are so many variables plus we can\'t validate any of this data properly. If my dealer, who I\'ve been with for 15 years, and who were the largest dealer in Europe, tells me to do or not do something then I will, and if I get a letter from Mazda I\'ll do the same. I know so many people with RX-8\'s and I\'ve never heard of this or anyone having an engine failure for this reason.
If you don\'t like it tough - you\'re not going to help me out if my engine goes bang are you?
I thought Forums are for Advice and to hopefully to learn something.
With RESPECT it is obvious you do not like it, and you can Stick your head in the sand..."you have never heard of an engine failure for what reason" you really do not know what you are talking about do you.
Your naivety concerning Dealers is astounding, they will not admit to anything.
So in your "expert" opinion what is happening to the RX-8 engine that have been replaced in the UK, why, OH that is correct the dealer says it is an Owners fault don\'t they. forgot to add oil..how gullible are you.
Why has Mazda comprehensively changed all the MOP (Metering Oil Pump) on 2009 RX-8\'s and added the extra oil nozzle? MMMmm, because they just felt like it?
Why did they bother to add it to the UK R3 model then if it was not necessary in the UK?
I think everyone needs to chill out....I mean it was originally intended to give people advice, and recommendation!!
That said....maybe it was said with a bit too much \'I know all\' attitude :P
hey guys take it easy lol
There is a design flaw and the way people drive their 8s with the old model,
It will hit some cars and some cars not, like all other different cars out there.
There is plenty of 8s doing very high mileage FACT
There is 8s in the UK they have had engine failures FACT (seen 5 of the rx8 engines on Reworx\'s floor failed with low compression and carbon build up)
Will Premix help the old 8s reliability Probably but if your engine does fail the dealers will replace the engine anyway.
If your dealer tells you to do follow guidlines but your engine still fails, your dealer will replace if for you, so why worry about adding premix??
Just remember if you do want to add premix it has to be in small amounts 20 ml per ten litres anymore you are killing the octane of the fuel and the knock sensors will retard the ignition and you will lose power.
In my 7 I dont run an OMP I run premix, as the one nozzle in the middle of the housing wont lube enough for my power levels and only lubes the centre part of the seal which is fine for moderate power levels. If you have an FD RX7 which is mostly stock power the water seals will fail long before the apex seals hahaha
Quote from: RX-8888;597467I thought Forums are for Advice and to hopefully to learn something.
You\'re not offering advise you are preaching. Forums are also for discussion but you are not reading other peoples posts properly let alone taking on board what they are saying.
Quote from: RX-8888;597467With RESPECT it is obvious you do not like it, and you can Stick your head in the sand..."you have never heard of an engine failure for what reason" you really do not know what you are talking about do you.
With respect did I ever say I didn\'t like it? How can you challenge what I have been told and what I know? And you\'re right I don\'t have a clue what you are talking about but I never said I did.
Quote from: RX-8888;597467Your naivety concerning Dealers is astounding, they will not admit to anything.
Because I trust a dealer that I have been with for 15 years and who has never let me down and has gone out their way to provide excellent service I\'m naive?
Quote from: RX-8888;597467So in your "expert" opinion what is happening to the RX-8 engine that have been replaced in the UK, why, OH that is correct the dealer says it is an Owners fault don\'t they. forgot to add oil..how gullible are you.
I have never once claimed to be an expert on anything but yes I do believe what my dealer has told me. I never said people forget to add oil - I know of at least two people who brought RX-8s without having a clue what a rotary engine is. How would they know they need to check the oil so often?
I will say this for the third and last time. I have not once said that what you are proposing isn\'t correct or valid but if you think I am going to go against the advise of my dealer and do something that some rather rude Australian has advised me on an internet forum that you really must think I\'m stupid! And you haven\'t even waited for me to actually ask my dealer!
Quote from: seanp;597461I see, your monitoring of your oil level usage (which is probably no more accurate than seeing the dip-stick level reduce every x000 miles and adding half a litre?) overrides all of the R&D that Mazda have carried out, statistics and evidence they\'ve collected etc., re-designing, re-tooling all at great expense, and obviously shouldn\'t have bothered with because they\'ve quite simply got it wrong (again!) :2Confused
But it\'s NOT a two-stroke! It\'s also not a V8, Diesel etc., which all have different design and lubrication requirements. (Hint the principal is similar to two-stroke, the design boundaries and execution are rather different!)
Which is why they provide Oil metering in the first place, rather than leaving it out and depending on a more inaccurate method of putting an additive into the fuel mix, at some difficult to judge ratio (and changing in your case!)
I do, I also don\'t try to preach my religion, whatever it may be, to others through supposition.
Wow, that\'s a nice, consistent rate. Out of how many sales?
Did they, to you? They were probably correct, given the number in existence?
Since then there have been UK owners who have not had failures (I being one).
(What were you trying to say - UK owners have ONLY had failures in the past year? That\'s incorrect too.)
Says who? All of them do more mileage than me?
I haven\'t said it before, but Mazda would NEVER tell you to add sugar to your fuel... I wonder why... :)
Please, help me -- seriously, why?
(IMO, if there were a real benefit, it would most definitely be in Mazda\'s interest to say so, and insist on the additives; there\'d be a huge cost benefit with not having to cover engine replacements under warranty / good-will, and they\'d also turn the sales of the additive into a cash-cow, like their oil ;)
Communicating the fact to their existing owners, many of whom are completely ignorant to the requirement of topping up oil at all, [the biggest cause of engine failures according to the dealers we\'ve talked to here in the UK])
Oh, so, now we\'re all to treat our motors as racing cars now, are we? That also means I definintely need to uprate my suspension, zorst, tyres, roll-cage, remove excessive weight etc. etc, because ALL (well, most) will do that too?
Different context, mate; similar things are done to racing pot engines too (including dry-sumping, and oil metering, ironically!)
Figures of one dealer are nothing to go on -- perhaps they have a lot of ignorant buyers?
No doubt -- it makes sense to bring rebuilding onto shore as market forces will dictate there will be more engines to rebuild through time, and Mazda make the kits and skills available to be able to do so. Much cheaper than shipping them back to Japan, and much \'greener\' to be seen to \'recycle\' than to dump? I\'d be surprised if a similar pattern was not followed in early history of previous generation engines?
I simply find your proposal illogical, and you fail to cite any real facts which would convince me otherwise (and that convincing, BTW, would actually need to come from Mazda UK, not yourself).
You cite that because I\'ve done >50K miles I\'m doomed because I didn\'t use pre-mix, and there\'s no point in starting now, I\'m already doomed. Where\'s the facts to back that up? Why an arbitrary number? Why not 51K, 60K, 55,555.5 miles?
You proposed that because YOU put an additive in, we all MUST? Why?
You cite this is because Mazda have incorrectly designed the oil metering; yet they\'ve addressed this in the R3 and you STILL insist on pre-mix. Why?
etc. etc. etc.
If you can\'t comprehend my reason for adding pre-mix, I am not going to spell it out to you again...
As I said to you and you failed to answer this one, why did Mazda comprehensively change the MOP on Series 2 engines?, by adding 2 Electromagnetic Metering Oil Pumps instead of One mechanical, and the two extra oil nozzles, a brand new Oil Pump set up at a higher oil pressure, increase the size of the oil filter, WHY.?
Simply because the Series I system is inadequate.
The ratio or percentage of RX-8 sales to population is in fact very similar in the US, Australia and the UK. So the ratio to "Faults\' is also similar.
BTW, it is a fact that drivers in the US drive greater distances than those in the UK, like Australian drive greater distances than those in the UK, after all we have a cattle station that are larger than the total size of UK.
If you have RX-8 owners that have done more than 150,000 miles on their original motor I would like to see them post than info here, rather than someone else. It would be a new world record.
You are very lucky if you get over 100,000 miles...very lucky.
Quote from: AMH;597474You\'re not offering advise you are preaching. Forums are also for discussion but you are not reading other peoples posts properly let alone taking on board what they are saying.
With respect did I ever say I didn\'t like it? How can you challenge what I have been told and what I know? And you\'re right I don\'t have a clue what you are talking about but I never said I did.
Because I trust a dealer that I have been with for 15 years and who has never let me down and has gone out their way to provide excellent service I\'m naive?
I have never once claimed to be an expert on anything but yes I do believe what my dealer has told me. I never said people forget to add oil - I know of at least two people who brought RX-8s without having a clue what a rotary engine is. How would they know they need to check the oil so often?
I will say this for the third and last time. I have not once said that what you are proposing isn\'t correct or valid but if you think I am going to go against the advise of my dealer and do something that some rather rude Australian has advised me on an internet forum that you really must think I\'m stupid! And you haven\'t even waited for me to actually ask my dealer!
Hey, hang on , if anyone is rude....look at yourself, where have I not listened to what others have had to say...
If the cap fits wear it...and if that offends you then I apologise.
Quote from: CharlieP;597469I think everyone needs to chill out....I mean it was originally intended to give people advice, and recommendation!!
That said....maybe it was said with a bit too much \'I know all\' attitude :P
Precisely, I know all attitude now is it....what a laugh...
If others do not wish to listed that is fine by me..
I have presented facts from people who either work at Mazda, work on Mazda\'s, from 2009 Mazda Workshop Manuals that I own...if that is a know all then so be it.
Quote from: BlitzBoy;597471hey guys take it easy lol
Quite right Blitz - got a bit aggrivated for a min there. Been ages since I\'ve been involved in a forum scrap and I can\'t believe it\'s in a technical thread! :Giggle
Quote from: BlitzBoy;597471Will Premix help the old 8s reliability Probably but if your engine does fail the dealers will replace the engine anyway.
If your dealer tells you to do follow guidlines but your engine still fails, your dealer will replace if for you, so why worry about adding premix??
Absolutley my point. There is also the issue that I post up on here that I think it\'s a great idea and I\'m going to start doing it straight away - and then I have a problem. Mazda or my dealer could turn around and say they\'re not going to help me out as I took advise from some random bloke I\'ve never even met!
Quote from: RX-8888;597499Sure it is possibly, I have not heard of any RX-8 getting over 125K, I think they would be running pretty poorly at that mileage, to say they have a "number" of them over 150K seems unusual. That is over 260,000 KMS.
They are Talking Miles not Kilometers.?
Yep Miles I believe.
Well this all very interesting, im glad Mazda have went for the three nozzled design on the housing at last and hope it will be in the 16x as well.
Personally I have personally seen a couple of RX8 done over 100K miles not 150K
They seemed to run ok, which is good going for a Rotary sports coupe methinks
Quote from: nicktyler;597148Sorry but I can\'t help that either but it is a very defeatist attitude to just say it\'s too late. I\'m not just giving up on a car I love that easy. We can\'t all afford luxury R3\'s even if we were worthy enough to get them in the UK.
You said yourself that you have known an RX8 run to 120,000 miles. How did the owner get this to run 70,000 miles with an apparently broken engine?
That is the information us 50k+ers need to know.
Hang on mate, I never said that your or anyones engine is BROKEN, at around 50,000 miles the Apex Seals are already worn to a very slightly concave face, you can not rectify that with pre-mix, it will help though.
Philip started pre-mixing a few years back, his engine damage after pulling apart was worn apex seals , but a broken side seal that damaged rotor housings.
By all means if you want to pre-mix...this is after all the reason for my thread here, but you wont rectify something that is already worn irregularly.
What pre-mixing will also do is help to lubricate all the areas where the MOP will not do.
Quote from: BlitzBoy;597502Yep Miles I believe.
Well this all very interesting, im glad Mazda have went for the three nozzled design on the housing at last and hope it will be in the 16x as well.
Personally I have personally seen a couple of RX8 done over 100K miles not 150K
They seemed to run ok, which is good going for a Rotary sports coupe methinks
Yes, the 3 nozzle and EMOP and OIL pump is the same that will be on the new 16X..if we see it...I hope so, but I just don\'t know with the world economy etc.
Don\'t know how you guys will go in the UK, rotary sales are not good there and your new Road tax is a killer.
Take a look in Auto Trader, eBay, PistonHeads etc there are quite a few 8\'s with over 100k miles as they are company cars and they are still running sweet as a nut.
Sorry but im with Ann and Mark on this. If Mazda have said my car is fine and all serviced correctly and it does go I know all I will have to pay is the labour of an engine replacement.......but as said my dealer has never had an engine back in 6 years of selling RX8\'s
27 engines replaced in rx8oc
out of how many sold????
rx8oc isnt just UK Ash
There are 27 in the RX8OC but that is still a small % even with the condensed soup affect. Also They are not all due to lack of pre-mix and irregularly worn apex seals.
Nothing is perfect and I\'m sure a Mazda dealer would agree.
Quote from: AshRX;597509Take a look in Auto Trader, eBay, PistonHeads etc there are quite a few 8\'s with over 100k miles as they are company cars and they are still running sweet as a nut.
Sorry but im with Ann and Mark on this. If Mazda have said my car is fine and all serviced correctly and it does go I know all I will have to pay is the labour of an engine replacement.......but as said my dealer has never had an engine back in 6 years of selling RX8\'s
Yes, as I posted back I have a friend in South Africa who has a 2004 Black 8 done 207,000 KM (124k Miles), he is a rep on the road all the time, as we know rotaries thrive on being used all the time.
His car started to get harder to start at around 200K, ran fine once started but got worse quickly, ended up it busted a side seal.
He is having it Ported and should be back on the road today.
Mazda are no longer selling RX-8 in South Africa as they don\'t sell.
Quote from: nicktyler;597515There are 27 in the RX8OC but that is still a small % even with the condensed soup affect. Also They are not all due to lack of pre-mix and irregularly worn apex seals.
Nothing is perfect and I\'m sure a Mazda dealer would agree.
How do you get poor compressions?
A busted seal?
Quote from: AshRX;597512out of how many sold????
rx8oc isnt just UK Ash
I guess not, but "dare" I say most of them look to be.
Just like most car owners don\'t participate in Forums..
Quote from: RX-8888;597526How do you get poor compressions?
A busted seal?
You are right on that. I was thinking that bust water seals or worn springs or tips could cause low compression but I suppose it all ends up with lost compression through an apex seal.
Is this right?
Quote from: nicktyler;597536You are right on that. I was thinking that bust water seals or worn springs or tips could cause low compression but I suppose it all ends up with lost compression through an apex seal.
Is this right?
There are so many combinations, but, yes, generally you can get a sticking Apex seal, Side Seal or corner seal, because carbon can "block or Jam the springs. To free up a stuck seal you can add ATF (Auto Trans Fluid) directly through the intake (lots of smoke) or 2 stroke, the excess oil frees up the springs.
A worn Apex seal (in the middle) blows back combustion cycles causing poor compressions and performance.
Then there is coolant entry from warped housings, back in the 70\'s at my dealer we did 100\'s of R100, RX-2 and RX-3\'s with coolant entry, mainly caused by warped rotor housings from not warming up engine and age.
Generally now there are few RX-8\'s or rotaries that suffer such a short engine life from coolant entry, they were popping back then at 30,000 Miles.
All of the above in time requires a rebuild.
I\'m just going to make sure I have enough money for a rebuild for when my engine does go which hopefully won\'t be too soon and just enjoy the beep while it still lets me.
Quote from: RX-8888;597547HA HA..
Actually 128,623 Miles, from someone quoting facts and figures.
Weird! I make it 128,340 miles:Giggle:)
Quote from: nicktyler;597553Weird! I make it 128,340 miles:Giggle:)
Arrrr...give or take a few...who cares...:Giggle
only joking it is 128623.836793059 miles.
Actually who cares it is alot more than 50,000 miles
Quote from: nicktyler;597555only joking it is 128623.836793059 miles.
Actually who cares it is alot more than 50,000 miles
Yeah..it\'s more than twice..:Hammer
I\'m not trying to be funny here but in the end of post 11 on this thread you said 30,000 miles is the forget it limit?
(sorry if there is a better way to quote but hers a link)
http://mazdarotaryclub.com/forums/showthread.php?t=49853
Quote from: nicktyler;597557I\'m not trying to be funny here but in the end of post 11 on this thread you said 30,000 miles is the forget it limit?
(sorry if there is a better way to quote but hers a link)
http://mazdarotaryclub.com/forums/showthread.php?t=49853
No problem, back in March I was given stats by the reman guy in the US at that time, based on the information collated at the time, perhaps I should update it. MNAO are collation info all the time now they are into full reman production at 380 engines a month.
Keep in mind there is no set exact mileage when an engine can fail or may fail.
Some owners keep driving and don\'t notice a power loss or change.
As far as MOP are concerned, over the past few year (particularly the US) Mazda have updated the PCM Flash to increase oil flows onto Apex seals.
WHY?
Quote from: johnf;597558You see I know nothing about what you are talking about but you seem insistant on quoting facts and yet you now make light of the FACT that you can\'t convert km\'s to miles.
As I said I know little about the topic but from an outsiders view you lose credibility over this basic error.
Are there other 4% variables in your other quoted figures?
John
John,
The owners of this RX-8 Speedo is in kilometers 207,000 KM, in this instance I did a quick "in my head" calculation into miles...OK.
In my head I usually just times kilometers by 6, what do you do without a handy calculator when it is actually 0.6213712?
At the end of the day, Engine designers will uprate and redesign week points on their engines all the time regardless of engine type, its just natural progression. I think its obvious that they think adding a third oil injector will improve the longevity of the engines or they wouldn\'t have bothered, however that doesn\'t mean that there is any definate cure for the series 1\'s wearing out apex seals. Even with pre-mixing they are going to fail eventually, so why not treat it as an inevitability and start saving for a rebuild now if your planning to keep the motor a few years? Then at least if mazda do stump up for a new engine then you have some cash spare at least. It doesnt matter if the seals fail at 125k or 175k the outcome is the same.
Looking at car speedo\'s 80kmph = 50mph I thought the basic rule was divide by 8 then x 5
Quotejust times kilometers by 6
I think you\'ve made another error - did you mean .6 not 6 ?
John
Quote from: RX-8888;597565stuff
Ash, you seem to be making some very very bold statements yet aren\'t providing anything other than anecdotal evidence to support it.
Could you give some hard facts backed up with real sources (not the mate of a mate\'s uncle).
I saw some engine failure rate comparison data for the 8 compared to other majoir manufacturers that certainly seemed to imply there was no difference between Mazda and other cars sold in Europe (BMW, Ford, Merc, Audi).
All engines fail. Sometimes due to design flaw where you get very very high rates of failure per unit sold. Other failures are to be expected. I\'ll try to find the reference to the report to back this up (otherwise it\'s just more anecdote).
Please try to post relaxed - no need for such heat over something so rare and trivial as an engine failure.
Remember 8\'s aren\'t 7\'s!!!
multiply miles by 1.6 to get kilometers!:p
Hi All,
I will try and address a few things that have occurred on this thread, if I can.
I have read with interest that many of the "issues" above have been with us since the very first Mazda Rotary engines and advise was given back in the 70\'s that revving an engine was good and was almost essential for keeping your engine free of carbon,
Next up is to dispel any possible misconception that MRC is an RX-7 club as this would be very wrong.
Many members understand that the name Mazdarotaryclub was chosen to make ALL owners of Rotary Mazda\'s welcome, indeed we are proud to say that when the RX-8 was launched in 2001 in Detroit Mazdarotaryclub was directly involved in it’s launch after Mazda approached the club for help with thoughts on the forthcoming RX-8 from present Rotary owners which resulted in pictures and comments from MRC being used on the back drop of the launch stage.
Unfortunately the perception that appears to be being given on this thread is that the RX-8 is completely unreliable and rubbish, however I can speak through not only the club members I have contact with but also through my business where I deal with Mazda dealers and RX-8 owners on a daily basis plus also talks over the years with Mazda technical and tell you all that the RX-8 is far from rubbish and proportional to the amount of RX-8’s on the road, total failure is still low,
O’ yes, and there are defiantly RX-8’s that are now approaching the 180,000 MILE mark and this is not just from Mazda speak, but also from a customer who I had on the phone just last week with similar miles to buy coils plugs and leads purely because he had got this far with no issues and decided to give the car a birthday! .
Much seems to be made above of the fact that there is now an extra injector and finding out why is going to be almost impossible, however my personal theory is that part of this could be that this cools the rotor allowing for a different map to be used to extract different power at different parts of the rev range whilst at the same time lowering oil consumption at the same time even though this is not really an issue any more, much the same was done with the 1999 on RX-7.
One very very glaring omission to the thread above is coil packs and these are now giving many owners problems either through bad starting, misfires and lack of power indeed worse case scenario is being that the oil is being washed out of the housings due to the mixture not being burnt correctly leading to rapid apex seal (tip) wear plus the cat also burns out and collapses because of this as well due to the excess fuel that keeps being ignited inside the cat.
Sorry but premix or any extra lubrication in the rotor housing will not combat this coil problem anyway if not identified in time.
In other words I now believe that with so many owners suffering from this dead coil problem this out ways the issues raised above, however I will still say that by and large the RX-8 is a reliable car with total failure being small in comparison to the many RX-8’s on the road over here in Europe with some 35,000 sold,
Quote from: Gavin_RX8;597567At the end of the day, Engine designers will uprate and redesign week points on their engines all the time regardless of engine type, its just natural progression. I think its obvious that they think adding a third oil injector will improve the longevity of the engines or they wouldn\'t have bothered, however that doesn\'t mean that there is any definate cure for the series 1\'s wearing out apex seals. Even with pre-mixing they are going to fail eventually, so why not treat it as an inevitability and start saving for a rebuild now if your planning to keep the motor a few years? Then at least if mazda do stump up for a new engine then you have some cash spare at least. It doesnt matter if the seals fail at 125k or 175k the outcome is the same.
True, and it is good you actually recognised the reasons why Mazda made the changes to MOP system for 2009 RX-8\'s.
offensive content removedYES, all engines will fail eventually, as all piston engines will.
Pre-Mix as a lubricant will help, it won\'t repair, but may extend your engine life and again there are too many owner variables to set exact mileages no one can be that precise.
Quote from: iaint;597570Please try to post relaxed - no need for such heat over something so rare and trivial as an engine failure.
Good call. I would like to think that we have boiled, whistled a bit and are now set quietly on the side cooling down.
Quote from: iaint;597570Ash, you seem to be making some very very bold statements yet aren\'t providing anything other than anecdotal evidence to support it.
Could you give some hard facts backed up with real sources (not the mate of a mate\'s uncle).
I saw some engine failure rate comparison data for the 8 compared to other majoir manufacturers that certainly seemed to imply there was no difference between Mazda and other cars sold in Europe (BMW, Ford, Merc, Audi).
All engines fail. Sometimes due to design flaw where you get very very high rates of failure per unit sold. Other failures are to be expected. I\'ll try to find the reference to the report to back this up (otherwise it\'s just more anecdote).
Please try to post relaxed - no need for such heat over something so rare and trivial as an engine failure.
Remember 8\'s aren\'t 7\'s!!!
What actual info don\'t you like to hear...
That Mazda USA REMAN Plant are now doing 380 units a month...
That MY Dealer In Australia has done 14 engines.
That center Apex seal wear is showing up in RX-8\'s, that is why there is a new EMOP system in 2009\'s?.
That 2 stroke will help to lubricate?
None of this is anecdotal .
Clive...
Yes Coil pack have been a failure issue, I am talking Compressions, you know what are the causes of poor compressions and there are a few.
The oil injectors in RX-8s are really only "weepers" there is not a large volume of oil actually being atomized into the chamber it weeps through a very small hole, it\'s purpose is to lubricate. Sorry,I can not agree it is there to cool.
Any RX-8 is far from Rubbish and I don\'t think anyone in this thread has said so.
Here is a Link for those who want to download the Genuine Mazda Service Highlight for the R3 or 2009 RX-8...it tells you all the details and changes between Series I and 2 RX-8..
in PDF File and 14.44 megs..
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=A0R8UTKZ
Thread locked until everyone cools off.
This is meant to be about cars, not offending one another.
Warmest regards,
Brett
Ok, thread pruned and unlocked.
Play nice!
:wave
Quote from: clive;597575One very very glaring omission to the thread above is coil packs and these are now giving many owners problems either through bad starting, misfires and lack of power indeed worse case scenario is being that the oil is being washed out of the housings due to the mixture not being burnt correctly leading to rapid apex seal (tip) wear plus the cat also burns out and collapses because of this as well due to the excess fuel that keeps being ignited inside the cat.
Sorry but premix or any extra lubrication in the rotor housing will not combat this coil problem anyway if not identified in time.
In other words I now believe that with so many owners suffering from this dead coil problem this out ways the issues raised above, however I will still say that by and large the RX-8 is a reliable car with total failure being small in comparison to the many RX-8’s on the road over here in Europe with some 35,000 sold,
This by Clive also backs up my personal findings with the RX8\'s iv had as posted in the RX8 engine rebuild poll thread.
where can i read all that has been \'pruned\' as the thread makes no sense anymore apart from the facts my southern hemi friend has posted,personally i believe the aus and american dudes as that is where all the good things happen in the rotary world,not much tech knowledge around here in the uk to believe in as its all old hat,:2Rolleyes
I have removed the bickering - the meat of the info is still on here.
Cheers
:wave
Quote from: Brett;597708I have removed the bickering - the meat of the info is still on here.
Cheers
:wave
where can i read the \'bickering\' must have been good ?
The bickering can now only be read by an admin, or those in possession of a time machine...
:Giggle
Quote from: Brett;597717The bickering can now only be read by an admin, or those in possession of a time machine...
:Giggle
:2Rolleyes dear me
Here you go - some genuine bickering :Giggle
http://au.toyotaownersclub.com/forums/lofiversion/index.php/t20308.html
Quote from: Brett;597720Here you go - some genuine bickering :Giggle
http://au.toyotaownersclub.com/forums/lofiversion/index.php/t20308.html
Is it me or does that Toyota forum have a Lexis logo?
back to school ann
Quote from: Rotaryguru;597742back to school ann
Am I being a muppet? I know Toyota own Lexus but surely Lexus would have their own club?
Toyota are Lexus
Quote from: BlitzBoy;597755Toyota are Lexus
My other half gets very miffed if you tell him he\'s driving a Toyota. I did a Facebook quiz last night on Supercar logos and Lexus was one of them - I started a riot by saying Lexus don\'t make supercars! :Giggle
Got a quiz night comming up at work and they always have a photo round. Last time it was flowers - we did crap. If was car related like logos or food related like chocolate bars I\'d be laughing!
Sorry I\'m going off topic...:o
well he is driving a Toyota , badge engineering, all Toyota designers and production Lines and factories lol
My dad drives a Lexus GS300, it has the same Toyota 2JZ lump as in the Supra NA hahaha
Iv\'e always fancied a Toyota Aristo, same as the GS300 but with the twin turbo motor in it ;)
Quote from: BlitzBoy;597763well he is driving a Toyota , badge engineering, all Toyota designers and production Lines and factories lol
He\'ll start going on about Mazdas being Fords.:D
Actually joking aside he was a BMW man through and through - knew Glenn from the M5 board. But he\'s been well and truly converted by Lexus - you get so much more for your money and the build quality is very good. He has a GS300 - five grand cheaper than a 5 series the same milage / age.
He would still go back to an M5 if he could afford to run it but at least he\'s now Jap so won\'t be sneaking into Rotorstock in a BMW this year!
The Mazda Factory 09 Service Highlights Clearly say the 3rd Nozzle is for LUBRICITY not Cooling as suggested by Clive.
More info on all the changes to the RX-8 can be download from link above..
(http://www.mazdarotaryclub.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=43459&stc=1&d=1239313837)
From 2009 RX-8 Mazda Factory Service Highlights.....
Qoute:
Oil nozzle
A total of three oil nozzles, one center oil nozzle and two side oil nozzles, are equipped per one rotor. The center oil nozzle discharges oil to the center area of the rotor housing, and the side oil nozzles to the side surface of the side housing. As a result, oil can be supplied to the entire rotor, enhancing the engine reliability.
Quote from: RX-8888;597874From 2009 RX-8 Mazda Factory Service Highlights.....
Qoute:
Oil nozzle
A total of three oil nozzles, one center oil nozzle and two side oil nozzles, are equipped per one rotor. The center oil nozzle discharges oil to the center area of the rotor housing, and the side oil nozzles to the side surface of the side housing. As a result, oil can be supplied to the entire rotor, enhancing the engine reliability.
fella knows his stuff ya all :Thumbsup!,put that in your pipe and smoke it :cheers
Quote from: kiwiracer;597889fella knows his stuff ya all :Thumbsup!,put that in your pipe and smoke it :cheers
Fella .... is just reading readily available information.
What people do with that info is up to them and there views.
Well said Clive. You are far more succinct and diplomatic than I :D
All that remains is for the thread title to be changed to "Why I think you should add pre-mix" ;)
Quote from: steve garbutt;597915Fella .... is just reading readily available information.
What people do with that info is up to them and there views.
nobody who has replied on this thread has any experience in building cars other than driving them,correct ?,sourced this from hitting the \'search\' button,okay,apart from haywood who has a shop,but nothing on the scene,so you all qualify as \'readers\' as well :cheers,not that i own anything dramatic but i read too :rollin
Quote from: kiwiracer;597925nobody who has replied on this thread has any experience in building cars other than driving them,correct ?,sourced this from hitting the \'search\' button,okay,apart from haywood who has a shop,but nothing on the scene,so you all qualify as \'readers\' as well :cheers,not that i own anything dramatic but i read too :rollin
I guess my experience as a Mazda Parts Manager (Retail Dealer) along with my great staff on being awarded the states largest and most successful Mazda Spare Parts outlet in South Australia where I was fortunate to win a sales campaign and travel to Japan, go through the Mazda Ujina and Hofu plants was a great privilege. A few years also working at Mazda SA (Part of now Mazda Australia) in wholesale and direct communication with the factory helps also.
On top of that doing warranty claims for Rotary Rebuilds taught me little also.
And an owner of the latest RX-8 helps too.
Yes, Knowledge is good.:Thumbs-up
Here are some posts from a new member at the US RX-8 forum, (Sleepy-z), he owns a Nissan Z, but works in the new Mazda Trained and owned re-manufacturing plant in the US...
Although having never owned a Rotary, he regularly updates us on any news or comments.
Sorry guys, I was just refering to him being upset over 40-50k miles on it and it breaks down, its not designed to be a dd commuter that goes 100k miles with zero problems. You shouldn\'t buy a rx8 expecting the engine to last as long a a corolla or mazda 3, you bought a sports car and if you pile miles on it then you will have to deal with the rebuilds more often then a non sports car having problems. You should always do your research and know what your buying before you get your hands on the car, I knew I was going to be paying $1500+ for 60k mile services on my Z and would have to dremel the hell out of the intake manifolds to replace fuel injectors and limit my driving and bought a cheap dd so I wont have to face the problems as often.
BTW We shipped 380 rx8 rebuild engines this last month, we only built 360. They are estimating 450 per month in the summer, how we will build them....lots of OT which is fine with me. People are driving the rx8\'s a lot more then rx7 were driven, not to mention they sold a lot more of them apparently.
I know the engines are fine for dd, I borrow one week a month and dd it and its fine, its just risky if its your only ride unless you dont mind rentals when it needs a rebuild.
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I haven\'t heard any #\'s for the expected lifespan, I just saw about 1000 engines that came in with mileages on them under 70k probably 90% of the time on the tech sheets. Maybe its the owners I dont know, all I heard from work at the beginning from supervisors was a manual was going 100k tops and AT was around 60k miles for the engines coming.....once again though this was based on what we got in, maybe there are owners with higher miles out there and they know how to keep it going but those are just what I saw and they found from data received from the other facility.
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Well if the engine was put in before last september then it came from cat reman not mazda reman to start. The new parts can vary, housings are only replaced if they dont meet specs, you may get 1 or 2 new housings per motor. Rotors are brand new, stationary gears are used but new bearings installed on them, eccentric shafts are used 95% of the time, new oil pan, flywheel/counterweight on a AT is used but its not that important. Its just that people who buy cars view on a engine replacement is usually negative, the life of a rebuild usually wont outlive the life of the original unless there was major issues with the original build thats all.
I have seen maybe 3 or 4 100k engines come in from 04 but I haven\'t been doing receiving anymore, moved me to main assembly and wherever they need me until the new person is trained, today I built 4 then I moved over to top assembly(prep for test run) attatching all the sensors/electrical/manifolds.......I hate top assembly . Had to vent a little.
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There is no difference in the engine/parts internally up to 2008. We inspect the parts and reuse what we can, we probably replace at least on of the housing per engine and as of right now every engine we have built has brand new rotors also. We haven\'t reused a rotor yet since they had issues with both our soda blaster and paint booth. We replaced every single bearing on the front/rear stationary gears also unless it was a very low mileage engine that had something like gasket failure. Simple rule on the bearings is if there is any copper showing its replaced. As of if there good/better then they used to be, its too early to say but the other place had too many small issues like oil leaks in weird spots and gaskets missing so they had a lot of turn around on there engines for small issues that are costly. We run the engines/compression test also and leak test them before they leave the facility. We even bought a 2004 and one of our engines in it to see how long it lasts, its still running fine with our motor.
Info here from a Mazda Trained mechanic who presently works in the Service Department of a US Mazda Dealer as a mechanic.
He owns RX-7\'s...His name is Kevin and user "teknics"
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premix from new will eliminate a large factor in the most common non-detonation or other internal "catastrophic" event. The motor obviously still has limitless ways of blowing up as someone above said, the variables are nearly infinite, but premixing will help make some of those variables harmless.
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The same rule applies to premix that applies to fuel. You want good clean premix. The oil will not clog your fuel filters, the oil can break down into just as small a particle as fuel, and is easier to push so it puts no excess strain on the pump either. Nevermind the fact that the ratio of oil particles to fuel particles will be at least near 256:1 if not above. Hell there are tons of 2-stroke engines out there that HAVE to put 2-stroke in their gas, and generally in much larger ratios (16:1 etc)....they dont have special fuel filters why would the rx need one?
Carbon deposits do NOT occur because of premix, they are PREVENTED by premix. The premix does NOT BURN, if it did you\'d get tons of blue smoke. I\'ve gone into detail about it before but basically fuel is 100x more combustible then premix oil. If the temperatures and conditions inside the combustion chamber are able to ignite the premix then something is seriously wrong. All the premix does is fully coat the rotor and rotor housing surface in a film of oil so as to PREVENT carbon from being able to cling to any surfaces. Again reference the fact that there ARE 2-stroke motors in the world, none of which suffer from carbonization problems internally and again they run larger ratios of oil:gas.
nevermind the 30+years of rotary enthusiasts running premix and not noticing either symptom you mention as a regular cause of premixing. I\'ve been premixing my vehicles for 10 years now and have yet to see one downside of premix. Hell i love cracking open a motor to rebuild or refresh after a few seasons and seeing a bright shiny housing surface staring back at me rather then a blackened, carboned, burned surface which will need replacement or if not replaced will result in loss of compression and therefore power.
Nothing except possibly the system i described, can beat the results of premixing, nothing.
edit: and in addition, robrecht is correct, injecting dirty, burned, used, and basically damaged 4-stroke oil into your motor is a bad thing. Nevermind the fact that the way it is "injected" is by dripping small drops into an engine spinning up to 9k rpm, thats 54,000r/sec try dripping a little droplet of water on something spinning that fast and tell me what type of distribution of fluid you notice, ill tell you right now it\'s going to be a thin, undistributed line of fluid, the same results you see on the interior surface of the rotor housings when rebuilding. Add to that people trying to stretch oil changes from 3k to 5k+ miles and the situation quickly deteriorates into havoc. The reason your motor oil turns black is because there are contaminants in it and it has been broken down, when this oil goes into your motor and is heated the oil survives, the contaminants burn into the rotor housings and rotor itself. Transference of contamination is the technical term.
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hopefully it helped understand the benefits. There\'s a lot of "fog" and "mystery" around premix, mostly cause as everyone has said, no one likes adding fluids to their car nevermind pouring some "mystery miracle" into their gas tank.
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Speculation? a metal seal against a metal sealing surface with insufficient lubrication on said metal surface will cause loss of ability to seal over time. This is a fact.
All Mazda OMP Systems have provided insufficient quality and insufficient distribution of lubrication of the rotor housings in ALL rotary motors. This is a fact.
Premixing 2-stroke equally distributes a protective oil layer along the entire rotor housing surface as well as the rotor and it\'s seals. This is a fact.
If you\'d like to argue the above facts I can begin snapping pictures of non-premixed motor\'s rotor housings vs. premixed engines rotor housings after tear-down. The evidence is easily visible, although I\'d prefer to show it to you in person so that I may bear witness to your head jumping up your own ass.
as for the "expert" comment....I have my official mazda rotary engine and rotary engine management systems certification, do you?
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the squirters are the fundamental flaw in the whole thing, they "drip" oil into the chamber leading to clean/lubed areas on the surface that are only a few mm\'s wide. Look at any used rotor housing that wasn\'t premixed for like 40k, youll see a bright chrome line from where the oil injectors are and the rest of the housing will be toasted.
Until the squirters can actually fully mist the oil they will not work good enough, sure you keep adding stuff on top and they\'ll work better, but theyll never do it efficient or safely until they are actual injectors.
It is incorrect to suggest the MOP engine oil supply that weeps or drips into the housings "cools" the internals of the seals as there is just not enough oil to accomplish this, as the Service Highlight say the extra nozzle is for Lubricity, just like the original 4 nozzles.
Yes the Engine Oil works in a combination with your "coolant" cooling system to cool the internals of the engine, this is why we have (like every other rotary) oil coolers in the front.
Interestingly the US Manual RX-8\'s always had 2 oil cooler radiators in the front, where our Australian Spec RX-8\'s only had the one, like the 4 port lower power Auto\'s also only had the one oil cooler radiator.
The new 2009 Manuals now all have the 2 left and right hand oil coolers, but the Auto still only has one?...this one I just don\'t understand Mazda as the Auto\'s now have the 6 Port High Power engines only (although maximum RPM is limited lower than manuals).
Quote from: kiwiracer;597925nobody who has replied on this thread has any experience in building cars other than driving them,correct ?,sourced this from hitting the \'search\' button,okay,apart from haywood who has a shop,but nothing on the scene,so you all qualify as \'readers\' as well :cheers,not that i own anything dramatic but i read too :rollin
That\'s a fairly sweeping statement, a fair few of us have a little engineering experience in one field or another :Giggle
Quote from: RX-8888;597588What actual info don\'t you like to hear...
Whatever info you post about RX8s doesn\'t matter to me one iota I own a 7 and have no personaly investment in the 8 - all information is interesting but people just asked you to back it up with some fact which you\'ve now done!
No need to be in my face about it either, I was just asking for some real information to back up the claims!
Quote from: RX-8888;597588That Mazda USA REMAN Plant are now doing 380 units a month...
That MY Dealer In Australia has done 14 engines.
That center Apex seal wear is showing up in RX-8\'s, that is why there is a new EMOP system in 2009\'s?.
That 2 stroke will help to lubricate?
None of this is anecdotal .
Actually it\'s all anecdotal until you posted the actual information from Mazda highlighting the R3 changes to the lube system.
Clearly Mazda feel the lube system could be improved on - i see 4 changes on the R3 in the PDF you supplied one of which relates to the oil nozzles (up to 3 from 2). It\'s not evidence that there is a critical flaw in the system but that it could be improved on.
We also know that a manufacturer would only do things if they gain from it (less warranty work, more performance, better sales). The lube changes can only be for reliability and the cost of the change (which would be large!) must be driven by a desire to see less failed units.
It certainly implies to me that there may be a problem that reveals itself under some circumstances but the numbers of remans you\'re talking about doen\'t seem all that high for the total number of 8\'s in the US or your area of OZ...
Does anyone have any pics to show the wear surface?
Quote from: Brett;597962Does anyone have any pics to show the wear surface?
Im about to pull one apart next week Brett as we have replaced an engine with the very same problem.
Ill get some pictures up when i do.
Thanks Steve - I\'d be interested to see what the width varience is form end to centre as well :)
Quote from: steve garbutt;597915Fella .... is just reading readily available information.
What people do with that info is up to them and there views.
as they say you can lead a horse to water. looking forward to hearing all the apologies from 5 pages of head in the sand comments from members who have no technical knowledge, nor have ever seen inside their engines.
Quote from: steve garbutt;597998Im about to pull one apart next week Brett as we have replaced an engine with the very same problem.
Ill get some pictures up when i do.
hang on, your business partner carl said he hadn\'t come across this? maybe you need to let him see this engine?
Quote from: hayward rotaryIn my local dealership they have quite a number of RX8\'s that are over 150,000 miles on original engine\'s that are not running premix. They have had only one engine failure out of over 400 RX8\'s sold,and that was due to the car not being serviced from new for 14,000 miles.Not really Mazda\'s fault.
Most of these cars are early ones with two oil metering feeds to the rotor housings.
Quote from: Rotaryguru;598051hang on, your business partner carl said he hadn\'t come across this? maybe you need to let him see this engine?
Sorry maybe i should replace the word problem with the symptoms.
The engine hasn\'t come apart yet so all we know is it was a failed coil pack that limped home and 10miles later the front rotor failed.
Oh and Carl has never stated that hes never come across it.
He was just stating some Mazda dealership facts.
Thank you to all of the people who have contributed very constructively to this thread as there has been very useful information that has been posted and will remain for future reference,
Sadly we are now witnessing people from other clubs looking to score brownie points and potentially goad people into arguments which as you will all be of aware is not welcome on MRC, so sadly this thread will now be closed before "guests" degenerate it further.