Mazda Rotary Club

As promised I am helping Babz-audio (local member MRC) take his his engine out, so that he can fly to America with it to get rebuilt, yes I said fly to America with a 13B engine!, as he says it is cheaper to buy a ticket, pay the extra $$ for additional load and to have it rebuilt over there to a very good spec. Compared to having it rebuilt to OE spec over here. And who am I to argue with that:cool ;)

Anyway we started striping off all the ancillaries last night, drained the oil, coolant, got it jacked up etc (pics to follow), but just need a little assitance on removing the pulley from the power steering oil pump. It says in the manual to use an SST (what does SST stand for and where can i get one???? machine mart doesn\'t seem to sell them) to help removal of the centre nut, but we first off tried to use two punches held parallel with a bar not realising that the pulley was made of some kind of bakelite material:eek: and cracked the holes making them now pretty much useless:mad:

So the question is how are we now going to move the p/s oil pump out of the way? or is there another way to take the belt off and undo the pump?????

Any help would be greatly appreciated and i\'ll put a photo up asap to show what i mean.

Thanks in advance, Paul

P.S. What size socket will i need to undo the big flywheel nut????

you shouldn\'t need to take any pulleys off, there should be a tensioner type mechanism that you can loosen off to remove the belt.

I can\'t remember how big the socket is ... but its huge, well over 50mm\'s  (they are a bugger to undo as well)

Mike

yeah Mikes right, you need to undo the tension thingy

(http://homepage.ntlworld.com/robert.pogmore/tension.jpg)

circled it in yellow here.. once you have that untightened they will come off easier but don\'t expect an easy ride, when we took mine off it was a struggle and a half. I suggest holding one of the pullys rock solid while the other person goes at it hehe

best of luck

cool idea btw... get a trip to the USA too! who\'s it being done by and how long would it take to fix? and how they heck do you fit it in ya suitcase? :D

HI Guys, thanks for the answers so far:D Here\'s a pic of the offending item.

Cool so just start udoing things until the belt slips off then??? We left it at that and didn\'t try anything else because it was already 11.45pm when we broke it, lol ;)

Cheers, Paul:)

yeah you undo that black strip next to the alternator (right at the top of ya pic) it won\'t slip off thou, they are evil imo :)

Gotta start somewhere!

Sponsered by Tango:bandit ;)

Hmmm what next???? Oiiii Paul do this next m8:rolleyes: ;)

After market tem sendor position, just incase anyone one wanted to know:)

How we left it

I heard polos are good for rotary engines :D

QuoteOriginally posted by Andyp
I heard polos are good for rotary engines :D

Yes m8, it\'s the hole, makes the air flow better. But beware using Polo\'s may require a fully mapped uprated ECU, you don\'t want to run lean now do you???? :rollin

You have been warned!, Paul ;)

Appologies if this is a rude question but...

How much is the engine? to what spec? and what\'s the extra bagage cost? Can\'t you leave the flywheel on?

How do you take an ENGINE on the plane?

It has clearly said on EVERY ticket I have used that you can\'t take dangerous goods like fireworks, explosives, fuel, ammunition, oxidizers and ENGINES as stowed or checked luggage.

That\'s with 7 different airlines (Qantas, Virgin, Singapore, JAL, Cathay Pacific, Air Canada and an Australian domestic that\'s now dead, Ansett).

How do you get around that? Send it forward to your destination as cargo or what?

Not being facetious, I actually want to know!

Not sure is the short answer, as it\'s not my engine. I\'ll get the info when he comes round.

Basically it\'ll cost around $2400 for an exchange engine to be sent to him in the US and he send his old one back, this includes 3mm seals and a stage 3 port with all new seals etc. So this is why i have to take the flywheel off as he may not get one on the engine he gets back being an exhange unit and all.  

Think he is going to be flying BA, and the extra baggage cost is £150 or something like that. NOt sure on transporting engines, he says it\'ll be put down as a university engineering show piece for a conference in the US; this lad is a bit of a charmer and a geeza so he should be able to get round it :bandit ;)

Does a 54mm diamter socket ring any bells???????

Cheers, Paul:)

wouldn\'t it be best to check with the engine folks what is & isn\'t included & expected with both engine coming back & engine your giving just to avoid any disputes & all the extra fun & games with removing potentially  unnecessary bits etc?
Impressive work so far although i am a technical numpty who is amazed by the fact i managed to replace my induction kit sponges without any help! I thank you (http://www.click-smilies.de/sammlung0304/party/party-smiley-038.gif)

Be very interesting to see how this project turns out & if there\'s any pit falls............
Si

PMSL at that smiley haha :rollin

dam that\'s a good price thou for all of that, at the current exchange rates that\'s..ooh £1,310.84 (thank you xe.com)

bargain, and the £1500 he\'s saving he can use it to get over there and bring us all back a pressie! :D

I think Gman wants NOS (http://instagiber.net/smiliesdotcom/otn/laughing/lol2.gif) but that does make a very good price.
Si (hopes it\'s not a get wot u pay for thing thou.....)

If you can wangle aroundit, I guess it will work.

I couldn\'t even get a free upgrade when we got married and flew back here.

BTW, if you are having serious problems getting that bolt off, look around where the bolt fits, make sure there is nothing that will be irreversibly damaged bu heat and hit the bolt and surrounding area with a gas torch. Regular propane is good. Oxy is also good but be careful. Don\'t over heat the thing, just get it toasty and carefully try undoing the thing. Works nearly every time.

Also make sure what direction the thread is... Stupid suggestions maybe, but better to remind you than to have you cursing for hours because you didn\'t think of it.

Well had a lazy day today and didn\'t start til 1.30pm and finished at 5.30ish. But the engine is almost ready to come out, just need to get some bigger spanners to split the oil cooler pipe and then disconnect the gearbox/clutch:)

And oh yeah, we did have to take the pulley off the power steering oil pump, if you didnt then you can\'t remove the pump as the retaining bolts are bhind teh pulley. Anyway don\'t ask how we did, although the pic may show you better:rolleyes: Anyone got a spare pulley wheel?????? ;)

Cheers, Paul:)

Rotary sweet anyone?????:cool

looks like they need some wd40!! :rollin

Coloured zip ties to identify pipes and wires are ac good idea:bandit

Final Sat:)

Bwhahaha this is like where\'s waldo with chocolate, didn\'t see the maltesers! :D

LOL, wonder how long a chocolate rotor would last for???:eek:

Paul:rollin ;)

see my avatar for rotary chocolate of choice details (was sumin the infamous mycroft once described rotary engine as which made me laugh) but anyway looks like good work so far & i can see this being an essay on how to remove engine, keep up the good work folks :god
Si

Yep Si, we\'ll have to get the Toblerones in for the next installment:D  ;)

And yeah the overall aim was to give a short "essay"/ little bit of insight into how this 13B twin turbo engine can be taken out of an FD3S, as most of the threads on this topic have only covered 2nd and 1st gens so far:)

Hopefully we should have the engine out tomorrow, unless we\'re being super lazy of course:rolleyes:

Cheers, Paul:)

I\'ll have some NOS please if theres room in the box. :D :D :D

Right guys i need some assistance, there is a big massive wiring lom section that goes from the bulkhead up past the oil filter and into the rats nest of relays, pipes and wires. I\'ve undone all the conncetors from it that were on the gearbox and have moved that lot on the engine, but now do i have to disconnect all the little relays and move the big loom from the engine or can just disconnect it from the bulkhead maybe???? I can\'t see a connction to split it in the engine bay?? The manual shows it being still connected to the engine block when stood on the engine stand:confused:

Here\'s a pic:

Cheers, Paul

You have to disconnect it from the ecu inside the car and feed it through the bulkhead.
Keep it all connected on the engine.
Kind regards
Carl

Cool:cool,  thanks for that carl:)

Well the engine is now out and is ready to be striped down to a bare block tomorrow. Everything went pretty smooth and we have found out teh the front rotor is missing an apex seal:eek:

Pics to follow:D

Thanks for the help, Paul

P.S. Will construct a list later of things to remove and in what order, with any hints/tips to help any budding engine builders along their way ;)

Ok starter motor removed

Move and tie out of way hydraulic clutch actuator

Remove inspection covers from gearbox, then you can either undo the clutch cover nuts or prise the release mechanism with a screw driver, i went for the first option, was pretty easy if you get someone to hold the front pulley eccentric shaft nut with a big bar to stop it moving:)

Y pipe to turbo and air pump pipe to cat removed, although this car doesn\'t even have a cat:eek: ;)

Support engine with crane, and start to undo gearbox bolts. Once only the top 2 are left in suppor tthe bottom of the gearbox with a trolley jack and block of wood. then udo the top two bolts.

Undo the 2 14mm nuts on the subframe holding the 2 engine mounts to it, shake the engine about a bit to free it up and then lift; easy peasy:rolleyes: ;)

Nice clean flywheel, clutch looks almost brand new:cool

Shame the flywheel nit doesn\'t, what the ehll have they done to that????????:mad:

Empty engine bay

Me being a Champion:confused: ;)

Is hard to see, but the apex seal is non existant on one of the front rotor tips:(

It looks like it has been rebuilt judging by the damage on the flywheel nut!
Kind regards
Carl

Starring next week:
Paul in how to wash red fleece! lol seriously thou good pix etc be even better if i new what to look for....
Out of interest the yellow kinda bumper thing what\'s the story with that as i dont recall seeing anything similar after my bumper was removed (AKA destroyed) & didnt no if i was lacking sumin other than all the personal traits we all no i lack! lol or whether that is only for certains models, years etc?
Si

Yeah I was thinking that it could of had a rebuild, judging by the condition of the clutch etc. Why else would they take the flywheel off??possibly to face it if the face had stress cracking from excessie slip and heat build up?.

The car is a 99 type R2 i think and only has 70k kms maybe less on the clock. It has loads of RE-A kit on it, including ecu piggy back mod and boost switch in-car. The car had a comp test done at Mazda in Loughborough and they said it had very good compression. I think Faheem killed it due to not really knowing what he was driving i.e. thinking the button was a random fog light or somethin and just pressed it at random and he also put in Asda unleaded :eek: :rolleyes: Anyway I think he has learnt his lesson the hard way and hopefully we\'ll have him back on the road soon:)

And yes Si i could do with washing that top, but the only reason i had that top on was because my other equally dirty jumper got soaking wet with coolant, lol.

Cheers, Paul:)

Oh yeah Si, the bumper is an RE-A bumper and that is a very stiff and strong GRP mounting support frame that the fibreglass bumper sits on:)

Regards,

Paul

Well the the engine is now down to the bare block (if thats what you call it) and yep it is extremely small. Just need to get the socket to remove the flywheel nut now:rolleyes: and give the whole thing a good degreasing. The front rotor is completely shot, one half of one of the apex seal has vanished and has toaken massive chunks out of the rotor and the other two apex seals in that housing have been crushed inside the rotor so no longer push against the housing, i guess that\'s why John Nobles got zero compression on that housing then:eek: ;)

Anyway some pics:cool

Two rx\'s paked on the driveway:bandit

Two rx\'s take two ;)

Well we un-did the flywheel nut this evening, wasn\'t too hard, just a little bit of leverage required :eek: ;). Engine is not completely stripped and just needs to be cleaned up before it can be boxed and taken to America :cool

Thanks for reading, Paul:)

ahhh we need another pic of the engine with flywheel off not convinced u manage to take the nut off lol

Ok will photsho... err im mean i\'ll upload one when I get home tomorrow :eek: ;)

Cheers, Paul:)

Hello mate...

What size was the flywheel nut.  As you know i am taking my engine out soon....so i may need to borrow that rachet  :o)

Cheers

Adam

Si (getting desperate)

bet ya learnt so much doing this ain\'t ya.

Wouldn\'t mind a pic of the shot seals / rotor if you can dig ya camera in, interested to see what they look like bummed up :)

Adam: No problem m8, the socket we used was a 3/4 inch drive 56mm with a 3/4 to 1/2 inch converter for the extender bar. If you want to borrow it, or need a hand with anything just let me know :)

AndyP: Yes m8 we have already learnt alot, it is by far the best way to learn, so just get stuck in there:bandit  not looking forward to putting it back together though :eek: ;) I\'ll try and find you a pic, but i don\'t think they came out too clear.

Cheers, Paul:)

This is the apex seal which has sheared off 1/3 of the way along. 1/3 of the seal remains from left to right, but the other 2/3\'s is non existant and has taken big chunks out of the rotor so the slot is all deformed. I\'d imagine that this rotor is probably no use any more and I\'d also thing that with the housing being aluminium it won\'t of faired too well either:(

Regards,

Paul:)

This is a great thread. Very informative not to say a little daunting and a valuable sorce of reference to all those who will soon be facing a rebuild. Anyone thought of doing a thread on a full strip down ala haynes manual??:D :rollin

ooh that\'s what they look like :eek:

lil ol me was impressed by the rotor on rotechnics counter hehe

I think wav and his mate should do a mobile service :rollin

Thanks for your kind comments :) I\'ll try and put a list of things to do and in what order over the next couple of days for taking the engine out. The strip down order was a bit more random to be honest, we basically just un-did things as and when and if we found that one thing wouldn\'t come off without taking that off first, then that\'s what we had to do. I do have a large collection of photo\'s of the strip down and in the order that we did it, so I guess i could also try and do an order thig with piccies aswell. I think I\'ll have to start another thread with that one. Leave it with me and I\'ll try and get round to doing it as soon as I can:rolleyes: ;)

Cheers, PauL :)

P.S. We weighed the block (rotor assembly) after strip down and it weighed in at a total of 77kg. So was about £140 return for excess baggage with BA:bandit

Ok I\'m now going to prove that I/we managed to get the flywheel off:rollin  ;)

Block without flywheel:

Flywheel by itself (make sure you don\'t loose your woodruff key :eek: ;) ):

OK, here goes. This is the order I removed things in. (as per the Bruce Turrentine video)

Remove:
undertray
Air box top half
battery and tray
air intake pipe (the one that goes to the upper intake manifold)
Intercooler top mounting brackets
AST, pipes and brackets
Intercooler pipes
Bottom half of air box
Intercooler
Cross member (the intercooler and air box are bolted to this)

Split the oil cooler lines

Remove:
Water pump hoses (from radiator)
Accessory belt (the one that goes around the PS and Aircon pumps)
Power steering pulley
Power steering pump
Loom-Fuse box wiring + 2 grey connectors on the passenger side inner wing
Air con pump wiring
top air con pump bolts
Fuel lines (x3)
Heater- block water hose
Vac line to boost sensor (on bulkhead)
Throttle cable
Brake servo line and ground strap

Unplug ECU
Pull wiring through bulkhead into engine bay

remove transmission splash pan
Unbolt engine mounts
Raise engine a couple of inches and remove the engine mounts completely
lower the engine onto the subframe
remove starter motor
Unbolt downpipe from cat/midbox
undo transmission wiring and pull up into engine bay
remove cat air pipe from engine

open transmission inspection hatch (2 bolts underneath)
undo the 6 bolts holding the clutch pressure plate to the flywheel (requires someone to turn the engine over via the front pulley with a spanner/socket of some description)
Pry pressure plate off flywheel (you can see the lugs it needs to come off)
Remove the 5 bellhousing bolts
Raise the engine
Remove the remaining 2 Aircon pump bolts and pull the pump to the side.
Support the gearbox with a jack
Wiggle, swear at and pull engine until it\'s free, then lift and remove.

Assembly is a reversal of the above process ;)

I found that I had to remove the downpipe when the engine was half out as it was catching under the car.

Also, bag EVERYTHING you take off and label it. I\'ve just put mine back in and it\'s amazing the number of little things I didn\'t mark up from near the very beginning of the removal.

best of luck!

Steve

Cheers for that description:) Was about halfway through writintg mine, but yours is better anyway ;)

Just to add, make sure you have the correct tool to remove the power steering oil pump pulley, as the pulley is made from a bakelite brittle material, not metal like i first thought. And yeah I also found that we didn\'t really start labelling things up properly until the later stages of engine removal. Lots of different coloured insulation tape and zip ties were used, so hopefully the pipes and wires etc should all match up when we put it back:rolleyes: :D

Cheers, Paul:)

O.K. now I\'ve been following this with some interest and since I need a new engine have been digging around on some of the issues in this; for instance;

Shipping the engine in legally (i.e. paying import duty and not taking it as excess baggage)
The realities of not getting a warranty with a new engine then finding it doesn\'t work!

On the shipping front, a friend has just had a small block chevy engine shipped in after buying it on e-bay. The shipping was free anywhere in the us. He\'s found a company (run by someone in this contry called moving-parts.com who shipped this small (550lbs) engine (40"x36"x38") for £325. Duty was taken care of semi-legally by the engine supply company providing a second invoice for shipping purposes. hmmm - interesting

As for the warranty stuff. I\'ve heard that american engines are perhaps not the best - this would be a generalised comment of course. I\'m sure there are good and bad. What are the opinions
of my esteemed collegues on this forum! Who would be considered the best engine suppliers? I\'ll certainly post this question on a US forum and see what response I get.

I know you pays your money etc but my 1.0 polo is getting me down and i\'m getting desparate and I\'ve only had it two weeks!
Mike

wow thats a real good price to ship to/from America, that\'s kewl! good idea for a business too.

Don\'t know anywhere that does them other than the the rx7store (http://www.rx7store.net/subcat.asp?0=368)  which do the lot :)

I know some people don\'t like them but i\'ve never had a problem with them :)

RX7.com do them, heres a link to their engine page (http://rx7.com/store/rx7/fdengine.html)

Have dealt with them b4, got my c-west kit through them and can recommend, had no trouble :)

oops, think they are now called Rotary Performance, not rx7.com, link is correct though

That is a very good price, to buy a knightsports ported engine costs 3.5k in japan and then needs duty and transport, BUT how are you going to get on with warrentees. Have you not looked at some of the uk engine builders, anything goes wrong its gona get sorted.

Bloody great thread by the way, as I am a total mechanical novice.

QuoteHave dealt with them b4, got my c-west kit through them and can recommend, had no trouble :) [/B]

*me mails to see how much c-west headlight cover is* hehe

Yep this is a tricky one. If it were my car and engine I would of bought a master kit from Rotary Aviation and had a go at rebuilding it myself. But seeing as it wasn\'t  I let Faheem choose what he wanted to do. He is still awaiting for the engine to be rebuilt out in the US :rolleyes: and he has decided to pay a surcharge on the engine ($750) for not giving an exchange engine back and then to simply sell his old block here in the UK, thus reducing shipping costs etc.  His Uncle owns a garage in New York so he will be sending it from there direct to East Midlands airport (approx. £180) with a knocked down reciept from his Uncle\'s garage and the real reciept sent in a letter via another means;)

Regars to warranty, i\'d be worried too, I think your best bet would be to take the engine out and strip it yourself then get a UK specialist to rebuild it and give you a warranty. That way you\'ll still save alot on labour cost and you\'ll still get a warranty aswell:)

Good luck, Paul:)

I have to admit that saving £1000 on labour by doing it myself is a tempting thought and an easy discisuion to make now I hva emy vw polo.

I\'ve spoken with rotechniques who will supply an engine ($2500 std against the link above £1915 ported with 3mm apex seals!!) and will warranty it "so long as it\'s fitted properly".

So here\'s a really, really nieve question, in fact I\'m almost to embarassed to ask... What could go wrong?

After all there is no cam belt, I guess plug leads need to go on in the right place (how do you tell where TDC is on No1 cylinder on a rotary?) Does it matter?

short of putting everything back from where it came from what could go wrong?
Mike

my impression is that they are never new engines and are remans of others, so the warrenty protects you should anything go wrong...bit like the dealerships giving away warrenties with the cars they sell... so confident nothing will go wrong etc :D

You don\'t need the special service tool, just pop 2 drill bits or like in to the holes in the pulley, and then a long jack handle thru between them and then use your socket/spanner to loosen the nut....worked fine for me, same goes for re-fitting it.

How did this story end? did the engine come back? Is it running ok? anyone know?

Engine ran fine car has now been sold...

HTH

Rixio:Thumbs-up

When it says the downpipe needs removing, must it be disconnected at the engine, or under the driver, or both?

Ive alwyas made it the last job and undone it where it meets the cat/decat. then lift the engine with the crane to get at the 4 bolts easier.

I have heard of people taking the engine out with it still connected to the engine. Which every way you thing is easier I guess.

I had a right job getting the engine back in with the downpipe on. If you have a stock dp, it might go in easier, but with a 3", it didn\'t wanna go in.