My mate has just bought a FC, has brought it back, took it down the road tonight and took it up through the gears, boosted probably about 3 times, lifted up the bonnet and the turbo and manifold are glowing orange. I dont know a great deal about FC\'s but is the turbo water cooled? do you reckon its not getting enough oil or water???
what mods and boost is it running. How long had the car been running before you looked.
does it still have a cat?, a blocked cat can cause the turbo to glow quicker than it would normally, but it should glow after you have given a thrash. Also, if its too rich it will also glow as EGT\'s will be higher. Dodgy ignition timing can also effect EGT\'s, check the plug leads are all in the right place.
its this car:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/1992-MAZDA-RX7-TURBO-WHITE-FC3S_W0QQitemZ250375810369QQcmdZViewItemQQptZAutomobiles_UK?hash=item250375810369&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=66%3A2%7C65%3A7%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318#ebayphotohosting
bought it the other day, i havent actually had a look at the car myslef but another mate who knows a bit about rotaries has been looking at it and says he thinks its got uprated primary injectors but has standard ecu. They said it has a decat aswell, also its rough on idle and shoots out small flames even on idle, they revved it to 3k and it shot out a 3 foot flame :2eek
Quote from: sweetiewells;591930says he thinks its got uprated primary injectors but has standard ecu. They said it has a decat aswell, also its rough on idle and shoots out small flames even on idle, they revved it to 3k and it shot out a 3 foot flame :2eek
sounds like you have found the problem :rolleyes:
Sounds like the fueling is all over the shot - get the stock injectors back in there, new plugs and a boost controller. (Either that or get an Apexi or Microtech :Giggle)
My car was fueling richer than 10:1 (was off the chart on the dyno graph) best to check the TPS and ignition timing, mine was about 2 degrees out and after it was sorted I got a LOT of power back :D lol
Quote from: antnicuk;591914what mods and boost is it running. How long had the car been running before you looked.
does it still have a cat?, a blocked cat can cause the turbo to glow quicker than it would normally, but it should glow after you have given a thrash. Also, if its too rich it will also glow as EGT\'s will be higher. Dodgy ignition timing can also effect EGT\'s, check the plug leads are all in the right place.
If it\'s really rich it might glow orange if you\'ve also got the air pump still wired, as it will be burning in the turbo. EGT\'s are normally lower if you\'re a little rich - and go high with a leaner burn. Water temps will go up with rich mixture.
My tubby has glowed a healthy dull orange before now, but only after 20+ minutes of abuse :driving:D. If it\'s bright orange then it may be time to worry !!
yep its bright orange my mate said "it sorta went see thru" lol and thats from driving it for 5 mins and not driving it that hard.
I think we need to suss out what injectors it has and also give it a good service, and check the igintion leads etc are ok
Also could do with a power fc but i know they are pretty rare
would the bov not working have anyting to do with it?
just throwing some ideas :)
another fc in somerset =\'( boo =\'(
lol
is this a stock ECU vehicle ??
orange turbine housing is MUCH more related to late ignition timing than to excessive mixtures
--- suss out to see if your leading spark is 100% operational,, and that the set coupler beside the leading coils is NOT bridged
( its used to lock the timing for tune up,, and may still be bridged )
then check that you have the correct MAP sensor to suit the ECU type
( ie N318 or N370 for the turbo cars )
-- as the stock ECU takes most of its timing inputs from the MAP sensor
be sure its signal hose is also intact,, and that if N318 it has a modified earth point ( mazda bulletin )
the correct thing to due is the temporarily bridge the set coupler so as to set the timing to the -5 and -20 ATDC marks by moving the cas
( then remove the coupler )
NB
glow and backfire with stock ECU is also sometimes attributed to a faulty ACV on the rear of the LIM
( and so its injecting air to all the wrong locations )
-- the FSM has a check procedure to test if the internal bladder is torn
i think i got a ACV around in the garage if you need.. tho think lots of fc owners will have one kicking around lol
looks a nice car - got lots of fancy bits on it :D
Thanks for all the tips guys, it\'s not my car but i had a look at it last nite.
My initial thoughts were that it is running mega rich, however if that was the case i would expect to get problems with flooding? You can run the car for 30 secs turn it off & it starts straight up on the button every time.
When we had it running it was relativly smooth off boost but as soon as you build up any sort of boost it stutters, it\'s not as harsh a stutter as say hitting fuel cut, more like the spark being blown out?
Thinking possibly the leading plugs are not firing properly so gonna check this.
Bumpstart-
I\'m not sure what map sensor it has on but will check, however there is a small green plug with one wire too it that is not plugged into anything right next to the map sensor?
I knew this wasn\'t right but there is no where obvious for it to go? Is this the modified earth you\'re refering too?
Am i right in thinking that standard injectors on an FC is 550\'s all round? What colour are the tops of these?
Thanks for all your help guys
i think that green is the diognostic earth connector
might be worth checking and cleaning the plugs - if its failing on boost - might be a cheap place to start
on a TII takes about 15 mins tops to check them all :D
out of interest - if its fully decatted and running a stock ECU with no FCD ( would be on the drivers front shock tower ) then you might be hitting boost cut
I\'ve already changed all the plugs mate.
It\'s defo not fuel cut as it\'s struggleing before you get near full boost. I\'m not sure if it\'s fully de-catted, after having a quick look in the dark it looks like possibly a high flow CAT or maybe a silenced mid pipe? Either way it looks new & shiney:mmmm
Will give it a good going over & check all the things mentioned & hopefully get to the bottom of it!
To be honest i\'m just glad i ain\'t gotta build another engine:Talking1
might be worth checking the plugs are wired correctly too !
Bottom two plugs are the leading plugs - they can connect to either side of the leading coil pack near the battery as both fire together. The upper two plugs are the trailing plugs - the one nearest the front of the engine must attach to the coil pack connector on the trailing pack (near the bulkhead) that\'s nearest to the front - the back coil feeds the rear rotor.
Also, there was a mention it hard larger injectors - chances are it\'s probably the secondaries that are larger, not the primaries and that\'s why the car is smoother and runs ok at lower revs, but stutters when you push it a bit - as that\'s when the secondaries kick in.
there are three green diagnostic connectors.
6 pin by the leading coil and i dont suppose used by anyone apart from mazda
1 pin by the map sensor, you earth this when you do the timing and idle adjust
3 pin by the solenoid rack and used mainly for the checking of the CAS
They probably do other things as well but thats their main job in life.
in s4 cars the initial set coupler is green one pin plug beside the battery,, near leading coil
( you earth it to set the timing )
in s5 its a two pin plug that you short together
( you bridge it to set the timing,, one side is already to earth )
Quote from: [LEFTLum[/left];592103]Thanks for all the tips guys, it\'s not my car but i had a look at it last nite
.
My initial thoughts were that it is running mega rich, however if that was the case i would expect to get problems with flooding? You can run the car for 30 secs turn it off & it starts straight up on the button every time.
When we had it running it was relatively
smooth off boost but as soon as you build up any sort of boost it stutters, it\'s not as harsh a stutter as say hitting fuel cut, more like the spark being blown out?
Thinking possibly the leading plugs are not firing properly so gonna check this.
Bumpstart
-
I\'m not sure what map sensor it has on but will check, however there is a small green plug with one wire too it that is not plugged into anything right next to the map sensor?
I knew this wasn\'t right but there is no where obvious for it to go? Is this the modified earth you\'re referring
too?
Am i right in thinking that standard injectors on an FC is 550\'s all round? What colour are the tops of these?
Thanks for all your help guys
all green plugs are for diagnostics,, like code check, set couple for timing , set couple for continuing fuel pump etc
they normally are not plugged to anything !
the map sensor wiring loom mod is for extra earth for early s4 cars with N318 and n326 map sensors
-- the factory corrected the issue on later cars ,,
an extra wire added near the loom plug, and off to earth is fairly obvious
the earthing bug gives some odd signals from the MAP,,
but also contributes to the dreaded staging stutter,,,
( is this what your getting?? )
as do the other earth within the engine harness
,, its very important with stock ECFU you check that all the various earths are happy
-----------------
standard injectors for turbos come as three distinct types
- square plug,, hi and low
ohming types,, and oval plug, hi
ohmingQuoterotary top feed injector numbers -
year....motor/ car ...apspiration...ohms...plug-type...notch...size.. colour...number
83- 87 12A T low square centre 660 cc dark blue 195500-0610
83-87 13B HB Cosmo NT low square centre 690 cc green / blue 195500-0830.
84-85 13B GSL-SE NT low square center 700 cc orange 195500-0900
86-87 13B NT low square center 460cc red 195500-1350
86-87 13B T low square center 550cc tan 195500-1370
88 13B NT high square offset 460cc purple 195500-1350
88 13B T high square offset 550cc purple 195500-1370
89-91 13B NT high oval center 460cc red 195500-2010
89-91 13B T high oval center 550cc purple 195500-2020
Quote from: bumpstart;592235in s4 cars the initial set coupler is green one pin plug beside the battery,, near leading coil
( you earth it to set the timing )
in s5 its a two pin plug that you short together
( you bridge it to set the timing,, one side is already to earth )
I\'ve an
S5 and I have the single green connector that you earth off - located near the battery / leading coil. It\'s pretty much in the same place as the 6 pin green one. And before anyone says that\'s the tacho wire - it isn\'t - that\'s also there - but it\'s black. If I earth the green one - it turns off the BAC valve (expected behavior), and with ignition on but car not started it puts out the error codes - so it is the correct wire.
Quote from: bumpstart;592236all green plugs are for diagnostics,, like code check, set couple for timing , set couple for continuing fuel pump etc
they normally are not plugged to anything !
the map sensor wiring loom mod is for extra earth for early s4 cars with N318 and n326 map sensors
-- the factory corrected the issue on later cars ,,
an extra wire added near the loom plug, and off to earth is fairly obvious
the earthing bug gives some odd signals from the MAP,,
but also contributes to the dreaded staging stutter,,,
( is this what your getting?? )
as do the other earth within the engine harness
,, its very important with stock ECFU you check that all the various earths are happy
-----------------
standard injectors for turbos come as three distinct types
- square plug,, hi and low ohming types,, and oval plug, hi ohming
Some excellent info there !
As a matter of interest and it may be something to do with it but what difference does the impedence do in the injectors. I know that they have to be of the correct value usually classed as low or high but if they were wrong then what does the ECU see? Could it be that they are just the wrong type of injectors?
I also thought that the stock ECU does not reconise anything other than standard injectors so if they are uprated then surely whatever signal it sends is just going to open the injector and chuck in whatever fuel that injector is capable of.
The standard turbo is water and oil cooled and even without the water it would still do its job,especially when you say its glowing after a very short period. If it had a total lack of oil then it would soon seize and i expect you would hear something going on prior to that. The oil feed going to the turbo is actually quite powerful and i found out the hard way when i dumped 2 litres of oil on the floor when i forgot to do it up,that was like in seconds. Having water and oil cooled turbos is just another medium to take the heat away from the turbo body.
thanks for all the info guys, im sure lum can sort it out :yes
Quote from: pdtaylor18;592240As a matter of interest and it may be something to do with it but what difference does the impedence do in the injectors. I know that they have to be of the correct value usually classed as low or high but if they were wrong then what does the ECU see? Could it be that they are just the wrong type of injectors?
I also thought that the stock ECU does not reconise anything other than standard injectors so if they are uprated then surely whatever signal it sends is just going to open the injector and chuck in whatever fuel that injector is capable of.
The standard turbo is water and oil cooled and even without the water it would still do its job,especially when you say its glowing after a very short period. If it had a total lack of oil then it would soon seize and i expect you would hear something going on prior to that. The oil feed going to the turbo is actually quite powerful and i found out the hard way when i dumped 2 litres of oil on the floor when i forgot to do it up,that was like in seconds. Having water and oil cooled turbos is just another medium to take the heat away from the turbo body.
the only way a turbine can glow so orange - white hot you can see through it is retarded timing
- off which a faulty leading coil makes the most obvious target
as for injectors,, think of them like audio speakers
-- and the ECU driver like your amplifier
if the ohms are too low for what the driver is designed for,, it will draw way too much heat
-- much like the amplifier going near destruction when you feed it 1 ohm of speaker resistance,, when its designed for 4 or 8 !!
the low ohm injectors are peak hold,,IE the driver allows 5 - 8 A of current for an instant to move the heavy coil and seat
and then drops it to 1 A for the duration of the period its supposed to be open to hold it open
the hi ohm injectors are saturated,, they get something akin to a continuous current,, for arguments sake 4 A
- which is too low to make a peak hold injector drive off the seat fast with its heavier magnet
- and also falls from too high to make it shut quickly,,,
IE some very lazy injectors,, if working at all
and high likelihood of ECU burn out
in the vichy versa scenario,,
, the initial hi current designed for peak hold may well hurt the coil in the cheaper, lighter, saturated injectors
-- and the hold current may also not be significant enough to hold open that cheaper coil
-- so we can expect injector damage and some erratic spray as it struggles to stay open
-
Cool well presented !! some good info there,thanks. So hopefully if he checks the timing then that might cure the problem,easy fix if it is.