Hi Gents
Hope you don\'t mind a newcomer jumping in, to ask a question such as this:
I have long been an avid admirer of the RX-7. I have recently found myself living in a rural part of England again, and am now in need of a car. I am hoping to only purchase a car which might hold its price over the next 2-3 years, or perhaps even serve as a small investment.
A ridiculous notion, I suppose this must be? But may I ask, what if I were to ever source and import a 2002 Spirit-R (A), in Titanium Grey, and keep it garaged and driven only once or twice a week to remain with low mileage?
On this basis, do you think that an RX-7 might possibly be considered to be a potential investment?
I know you guys love the RX-7, so you will be trying hard not to be too biased, but I know you guys are also experts, so I would very much value your advice.
Thanks for your help.
Pipps
you will have to till 2012 before you can legally import a 2002 model spirit r methinks dude
hopefully by then the exchange rate will have recovered !!
You could import it but you wouldn\'t be able to get it on the road till 2012.
Could work but i\'d wait till the exchange rate is better.
It sound\'s like you\'ve already found a car for sale though.
Adam
I was not aware of any rules regarding the age of a car that I am entitled to import. I had previously seen a particular Spirit R available - it was of course a 2002 model - and the titanium gray colour interests me because it was only available on the Spirit R.
Allow me to ask, what is the youngest age of a car that I would be eligible to import into the UK?
Its not the age of the car that really matter but to be able to register an imported car on the road it has to be 10 years old. The spirit R\'s that are in the country already (3 i think it is) were imported before the rules were changed.
You could bring in a car thats less than 10 years and use it on the track no problem but you wouldn\'t be able to ge it MOT\'d or taxed for the road.
Adam
any car ten years or older dude
If you want to register an import that is less than 10 years old then you have to prove to the DVLA it meets European type approval standards, UK construction and use, and road vehicle lighting legislation before they will allow you to register - no one has done this, since the law change, for an RX-7 - it will more than likely fail on emissions tests.
Best to either import something over 10 years old or buy a newer one already registered here. Either way buy because you love the car but not as an investment.
Kevin
I think to answer the second part of your question (cos i know \'kall about importificating cars lol), there\'s no question in my mind that all FD RX-7s will be classic cars one day, let alone Spirit Rs:yes. They have all the neccessary criteria; very rare (even considering the numerous imports in recent years); very expensive at the time they were new compared to competitors; unique selling points galore (rotary engine, first mass-production sequential twin turbo etc); and they are gonna be even more very rare because they\'re still expensive to rebuild but cheap to buy, so if one goes pop it\'s as likely to get broken for bits as it is to be rebuilt...
....only question is, how long do you wanna wait for it to be recognised as a classic? Give it fifty years, you\'ll be able to name your price! :3Confused
I guess the question of whether the ultimate expression of such a focussed drivers\' car as the Spirit R desreves to be thought of as nothing more than an investment is an ethical conundrum for another day :D
If you really like the RX7 I would like to suggest the following which I have done. Buy as late a model as you can find in this country, throw thousands and thousands of pounds at it getting new suspension and polybushes plus an engine re-build then go out and waste loads of petrol enjoying the car. I think you could land up spending a lot more money and putting yourself through a lot of hassle getting a very late model imported only to find that you can\'t re-coup your outlay
I just wonder how long it will be untill the FD is classed as a Classic, or a least a very rare car? there are so many being broken up for spares, and how many are written off in accidents? it does seem to be the trend if the engine fails, break it up.
There will be plenty of spares about, but not so many complete running cars.
But of course the question is how many are left now? they are getting fewer by the day.
Would like to think it maybe a classic in the next 10 years, if this trend continues.
A good, unadulterated twin tubby will be even more rare if you also consider how many get converted to single turbos, v8s etc...
Well that then begs the question, which will be worth more, standard or modified??
On this point i think it\'ll be the standard cars, unless the car has some proven race history and not just RWYB meets or up and down the local duel carrage way :D
Adam
Most cars that make classic status are wanted as standard as possible by the sort of people that "invest" in them. Gotta feel that modding a genuine Spirit R is something of an act of vandalsim anyway, isn\'t it?
i know you said you cant register a import on the road unless its over 10 years old, but there are loads of imports that are less then 10 years old. What about the new nissan gtr? and the civic fd2? a mate of mine has one of them, its only about 6 months old
Quote from: Nik da Greek;574551Most cars that make classic status are wanted as standard as possible by the sort of people that "invest" in them. Gotta feel that modding a genuine Spirit R is something of an act of vandalsim anyway, isn\'t it?
But you could take a 1999 car and buy all the Spirit R bits for it. Yes technicly it wouldn\'t be a Spirit R but it would be exactly the same... if you know what i mean:3Confused
Adam
dont buy an rx7 buy a property while the prices are low. an rx7 is like a box of chocs you never know what your going to get. but it will be a toffee that tastes like szhit !!!!!!
Hey pipps the answer is yes. that car under your proposed circumstances is a good investment. if your being honest in what you say you want. if your not your a .... with a lot of money and i hope the spirit r ....s on you every time you start it which it might do.
pounds per smile plus the resale value of one of these in ten years will be great id love one. if you dont love the car or the "scene" you will cry and i will be there to take photos and laugh
But if some .... just garages one up for ten years then it will cost a fair bit to get it on the road. so bad idea. how many rotary specialists will there be in the future????
I think there are only 3 Spirit Rs in the country these were imported before the 10 year old rule change
Quote from: sweetiewells;574568i know you said you cant register a import on the road unless its over 10 years old, but there are loads of imports that are less then 10 years old. What about the new nissan gtr? and the civic fd2? a mate of mine has one of them, its only about 6 months old
because as been said before the models you mentioned have had type approval reports done on them where the spirit R hasnt I believe from reading stuff
Hi Gents
I am amazed at the kindness and abundance of response this thread has received. This is surely the most thriving online motoring community I\'ve ever seen!
My understanding so far from your comments is that a good condition Spirit R, with the added rarity of Titanium Grey, and kept completely standard, with low mileage and lovingly maintained, would be a car that in 5-10 years would be likely to hold its price relatively well?
Thank you for all the information on the issues with importing a personal motor vehicle.
I would be interested to know whether anyone thinks that the works which would most likely be necessary in order to make a Spirit R compliant for UK type approval would be costly? Is it mainly the emissions that would be the significant issue?
Thank you!
Pipps
Well I heard to two different stories , to make a type model approval report it costs circa 10K, but I hear some people can do an individual engineers report for 2K, you will need to contact an importer like Speedline or Newera that will have all the info
If you own it in Japan for 6 months you can bring it back with you. Apart from that no way you\'ll legally get on on the road.
I know of one at the moment, dark grey, red carbon recaro seats, 18,000km on the clock for £27000 in Japan.
Estimates on developing a model report are varied but the costs are high (£20k - £100k depending on who you talk to) and there is no guarantee it is possible! The problem as far as I understand it is that the car has to be in manufacturers trim to get through the ESVA but win stock trim it would fail the EURO emmissions tests, to modify it would mean it was no longer stock so the only way to do it is to develop an emissions system which meets the standards and also is acceptable under the ESVA! + you will probably find other issues which would need to be modified under the same restrictive system.
re: the £2k thing I thought that was how much you could "rent" a model report out for if you developed one?
I\'ve seen 3 different Spirit R types
A: Red carbon recaro seats and rear bins, black carpet
B: Red leather front + rear seats, red carpet
C: Red leather front, black rear, red carpet
The guy who imported my previous Pajero Evolution and put it through the test himself told me it cost him over £3000 and he would never put himself through the hassle again despite being someone who imported vehicles himself.
Quote from: Kieron;574734If you own it in Japan for 6 months you can bring it back with you. Apart from that no way you\'ll legally get on on the road.
And if I understand you correctly, are you saying that the vehicle will not require type approval in this instance?
Quote from: Kieron;574734I know of one at the moment, dark grey, red carbon recaro seats, 18,000km on the clock for £27000 in Japan.
Does it have the grey alloy wheels too, by any chance?
This is all fascinating information guys! I had no idea of the hassle involved.
In a way, then, this provides an even deeper answer to my original question. A matter which I had not even originally considered. As it would appear that this EU emissions type approval nonsense would mean that the number of Spirit Rs which make it to UK shores in the future are likely to be severely restricted, if any at all? There will remain only those aforementioned three vehicles - and no more - unless someone takes the plunge for the type approval costs.
So do you think that a Spirit R, which is one of three, or four, such UK-legal vehicles, would be a good investment? It would appear so! If only the acquisition wouldn\'t be so darn expensive!
Depends if they change the 10yr Rule before 2012 !
Shaun
If you want a car for an investment buy a Sierra RS Cosworth RS500
Every year they go up in price and even rough ones still fetch £15-16k!:D
I know its not a rotary but its a bloody lovely car with loads of motorsport
history.
Matt
A Spirit R can be registered in the UK but do not think to be it an investment.
A 1993 Type RZ (Black) with 70km yes 70km since new was sold in Japan last week for £7500. At the end of the day, the car is a Mazda despite how different it may be from other Mazda\'s. The name is associated.
Quote from: Pipps;574791And if I understand you correctly, are you saying that the vehicle will not require type approval in this instance?
Does it have the grey alloy wheels too, by any chance?
If you own the car in Japan yes. You can bring it back with you. Then after 6 months re register it and it wont need the type approval. Dont think you\'re allowed to sell it in the 1st year though.
The Spirit R Type A I\'m talking about is at Garage Sawada, they have a nice selection to choose from.
http://www.garagesawada.co.jp/list/index.html
Love the blue one, just as a matter of interest do you know how much it is?
Quote from: David Wiltshire;575140Love the blue one, just as a matter of interest do you know how much it is?
Nooooo, needs the Recaro seats :Giggle dopesnt have a price.
Am I right in thinking Spirit R are the ones with the badge on the wing and the drilled discs? The Recaro\'s in bright red are a bit boy racer for my tastes. Would love to know the current price so I can pay myself a bonus for the next three years!
I am interested to understand more about the ESVA fees.
I checked the DirectGov website, and found this (http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/BuyingAndSellingAVehicle/ImportingAndExportingAVehicle/DG_10018282) information.
How does this tie in with the sums which have been quoted on this thread spanning into the £thousands?
Is the rest of the cost involved in bringing the car up to the requisite specification to pass the mandatory tests?
That\'s a very good question...according to that information, it looks like it should only cost between 230 and 350 quid to get it tested? :confused: So where does the figure of thousnads of pounds come into it? Mind you, presumaly because the car would not be old enough to qualify for a pre-cat emissions test, it\'d have to pass the more modern, stringent emissions test and....well...wouldn\'t
http://www.garagesawada.co.jp/list/detail/rx7siruba1.html
i neeeeeeeeeeed this rex. how can i do it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Quote from: skybusr34;575886http://www.garagesawada.co.jp/list/detail/rx7siruba1.html
i neeeeeeeeeeed this rex. how can i do it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Not if I can get my hands on it first :p
Quote from: Nik da Greek;575877So where does the figure of thousnads of pounds come into it?
Does the type approval now not have to meet rigorous safety tests - essentially meaning you\'d have to have one crash tested? Its fine if your an importer, and plan on selling a lot of them, like FD2 Civic\'s, as you\'d make your money back.
How do people who build Caterhams or Westfields or whatever kit car get it done, then? There\'s no model report for a lot of kit cars, surely, and Joe Average who\'s built a car in his shed obviously cant be building a spare one to crash test it for the SVA test? Is that a different test to importing a car?
Quote from: Nik da Greek;575948How do people who build Caterhams or Westfields or whatever kit car get it done, then? There\'s no model report for a lot of kit cars, surely, and Joe Average who\'s built a car in his shed obviously cant be building a spare one to crash test it for the SVA test? Is that a different test to importing a car?
I would have thought its a different set of regulations. Kit cars (as you rightly said) have to have an SVA test, and probbaly work on the fact that kit cars, or sold complete - will be low volume models. Hence they can get away with more.
As there are a number of importers on this forum perhaps they could give an insight as to what the situation is with this. As I said before I bought my Pajero Evolution from a guy who used to import vehicles and he imported and had the Pajero tested himself (he imported it for his own use) as it was a late model his exact words to me when I bought it were it cost him a fortune in both time and money and in future would just wait for the ten year period. I have actually sent off an e-mail to the garage enquiring about the grey spirit with the red leather seating.
Also a lot of parts for the SVA need to be E-marked and an import won\'t always have this so a approved one would be required to pass the SVA.
Shaun
Seeing as we all now want to buy this car, let\'s get the webpage translated into English, shall we:
http://translate.google.co.uk/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.garagesawada.co.jp%2Flist%2Fdetail%2Frx7siruba1.html&sl=ja&tl=en&hl=en&ie=UTF-8
I\'m assuming that the stated price translates to just over £26k GBP? Would that be correct?
Also, for all the experts, are those the grey or the silver alloy wheels that it is sporting?
The following link to another forum discussion may also be of interest:
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?f=71&h=&t=225113
Quote from: Pipps;576001Seeing as we all now want to buy this car, let\'s get the webpage translated into English, shall we:
http://translate.google.co.uk/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.garagesawada.co.jp%2Flist%2Fdetail%2Frx7siruba1.html&sl=ja&tl=en&hl=en&ie=UTF-8
It\'s the other grey one I like but it looks even more expensive, to be honest I think I\'ll wait until this type of model is generally available for import because I still think you will loose money on them at this stage, this is of course my personal opinion.
Quote from: Pipps;576004The following link to another forum discussion may also be of interest:
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?f=71&h=&t=225113
Still don\'t understand why the discussion always comes back to the model report. According to the Government VOSA website that you posted a link to earlier, the charge for ESVA testing a vehicle without a model report is not much different to that of one with a report....maybe someone just needs to ring the relevant DVLA department and ask the horses mouth as it were?
All the discussion seems to me to so far have been speculation and third-hand hearsay, no-one who actually deals in importing has said anything on the topic, unless I\'ve missed it?
As for E-marked equipment, well that tends to apply to light lenses and stuff like that, doesnt it? Since RX-7s have been legally imported for years, and many have E-marked parts corresponding to those on a a Spirit-R, it wouldn\'t be beyond the bounds of possibility for a bit of part swappage to get through the test?
I agree entirely. It would be good to get this subject nailed - as it\'s potentially so profitable to all of us.
I think I may telephone both VOSA and NewEra on Monday to check their understanding of the procedure.
My only concern about the RX-7 at present is that potentially underefficient rotary engine and the dual cat!
Although 3,480,000 YEN (http://translate.google.co.uk/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.garagesawada.co.jp%2Flist%2Fdetail%2Frx7siruba1.html&sl=ja&tl=en&hl=en&ie=UTF-8) is a currently little out of my investment bracket! Can anyone confirm this as the price which Sawada are asking price? Their stated 348,000,000 seemed to be either a typo or a mistranslation!
Look on goo-net for more RX7 Spirit R
when the rules changes about 3 years ago there was a lot of talk about this. The thing with model reprots is down to if the car is a production car or a self-build. The SVA regs were originally for kit cars to allow cars which weren\'t mass produced to be able to qualify for road use, however importers also used the SVA as a way of getting grey imports onto the road.
While I\'m not in the business myself, I seem to remember the situation is something like:
When the changed the rules they said any car which is a production model must adhere to a model report, you then get into the E-marked thing! A model report for a car which ahs a UK version is easier to sort out because you only need to bring the import in line with the UK version, however the last RX7s that have UK versions were sold in 1994 they were the series VI so the series VII and VIII do not have UK versions and so a full set of tests (like crash tests) as well as e-marked parts would need to be fitted and more tests - the costs build up! + you may never be able to get the car to a stage when it will get through the ESVA!
I have heard it is possible to SVA one as a kit car, but you physically have to disassemble the car in Japan and ship it in parts re-building it when it arrives (however in that case it would be registered as a kit car and Q-plated so that would have a detrimental effect on its value!
Quote from: Pipps;576118Can anyone confirm this as the price which Sawada are asking price? Their stated 348,000,000 seemed to be either a typo or a mistranslation!
They mean 3,480,000.
In todays current climate it is totally worthless importing anything from Japan with the exchange rate being at an all time low. When I last bought from Japan 6 months ago the rate was 205 yen to the pound. Now it\'s just over 130 to the pound which is awful.
The cost of that car roughly landed on your driveway would be just short of £35,000 (at the current exchange rate.)
Then the cost of registering it, having model report made, SVA, taxing etc etc.
My honest advice would be if you really wanted one, wait for exchange rate to recover, bring one over from Japan, stick it in a garage with a dust sheet over the top of it and come back to the car in 30 to 40 years time. :)
At the end of the day as Freddy rightly says your going to be paying major money for a car with a mazda badge on it. As much as I love the RX7, once you get over the fancy new gauges, nice recaro seats and a couple of badges the spirit R is like any other RX7.
On the other hand i\'ll have one if you buy it for me! :D
Yeah the Spirit R is not quite exclusive enough for me.
Its virtually identical to the RZs but with the extra badges, you could probably get a 99 spec RZ from Japan this year and it would look like the Spirit R.
As has been said before you could buy a 1992 spec and put a nice widebody kit, single turbo, new seats etc, decent set of wheels and still have change left compared to the price of a stock Spirit R. Plus you\'d have a much nicer car !!!!
At the end of the day you never make money on cars unless you lock it away for years and years and years until they become collectibles.
I think another big factor for me is that these cars need to be enjoyed and driven to get the most reward out of them. If I bought a Spirit R as an investment then I would be scared to drive it incase I scratched it or it ended up needing a rebuild as I think it would drop a fair few quid for not being original anymore. I think for me it\'d end up more of an expensive paper weight and a millstone rather than something i\'d enjoy??....
Get a cheap beaten up 92 and track it :King
or get a 92 and buy all the 99 spec stuff then the Red Kevlar Recaros, dash, interior bits,bumper,bins and spoiler and badges and voila Spirit R
TBH, them red Recaros are the one bit of the car I really hate, they\'re just such a violent colour. Like the kevlar weave in the backs, but it doesn\'t match anything else in the car, so just looks wrong. That\'s my fashion tip for the day :Giggle....like I\'d turn my nose up to having one parked on the drive cos I don\'t like the seats :3Confused
pah the seats are Lush you philistine lol!!!!!!!!! thats what makes the car me thinks, Im getting some second hand brides and I was thinking of changing the colour to red lol
Quote from: BlitzBoy;576356pah the seats are Lush you philistine lol!!!!!!!!! thats what makes the car me thinks, Im getting some second hand brides and I was thinking of changing the colour to red lol
I\'ll get me coat, then.....
they\'d be no use to me anyway, not with my big fat arse :Giggle
Sadgoth, thank you for such a comprehensive summary of the reality of importations and type approval with non-UK cars. This all makes a lot more sense now.
Kevin, Gmogle, thank you for your advice and I agree with you completely. It does indeed seem that unless I could put the vehicle in a time capsule, there is going to be little profit in such an import at this time.
Kieron, it would appear that unless I look to buy an RX7 for the track, then there is currently little other reason for buying one!
A Spirit R wouldn\'t appear to be a sensible investment at this point in time.
Nik, I do see your point about the red seats in the RA. It does look a little odd in my opinion, too. I suppose that must be the embodiment of key difference between the RA and the RB. One is held out to be a track car, whilst the other is supposed to be a more sensible road-use option.
The seats actually look very good in the car. I\'d suggest the red is not that bright in reality, and in fact brightens up an otherwise dark interior. I appreciate we all have our own opinions though, but I have seen some pics where the red colour seems to be almost fluorescent it is so bright - but that is wrong and an artifact of the photography. Personally, I think they suit the car very well!:D
Well, you should know, mate. Since it\'s your car :god, no-one else\'s opinion on the subject really matters :)
Red Recaro seats FTW!!! :yes
Only good investments i\'ve made have been qualifications and certificates for my job. Which get me more money to waste on stuff like cars :)
Quote from: Nik da Greek;576383Well, you should know, mate. Since it\'s your car :god, no-one else\'s opinion on the subject really matters :)
:D Everyone is entitled to an opinion, so if someone does not like the idea of the red seats, then that\'s OK with me:Thumbs-up.
Quote from: Kieron;576393Red Recaro seats FTW!!! :yes
Only good investments i\'ve made have been qualifications and certificates for my job. Which get me more money to waste on stuff like cars :)
:Giggle:Giggle Well said!
Spirit R\'s are currently now only being sold from 2 million yen upwards in Japan.
Still, its not going to be an investment.
Pipps,
I was wondering as to whether you have made any decision regarding the RX7