Looking at some heavily-track focused FDs, many run fuel swirl pots to prevent fuel starvation under high lateral forces, which makes sense from a technical point of view.
However, the result is running fuel into the cabin, as the tank and pump is usually fitted in the boot. Apart from the noise and smell (well, there was in Gurj\'s old car when he took me out anyway!), this would make me nervous, as a rear-end shunt or other kind of nasty accident that ruptured a pipe or the swirl pot would mean petrol in the cabin and probably the inevitable...
Am I talking rubbish, or would I be right to be concerned driving round with one in the boot? :confused:
Yes you are right to be concerned.
It is wise to do these fuel systems properly and have them completley isolated from the cabin.
Regards
Carl
As I thought! I have seen ones that look like very nice workmanship in closed aluminium boxes etc., but it doesn\'t really change the fact that they\'re in the cabin and I doubt they are air-tight, so leakage could occur.
Carl, what sort of solution is possible on an FD that keeps the whole thing "outside"?
there is some space if you remove the charcoal filter. other option is to fit it all into the spare wheel well with an open vent to atmosphere and sealed from cabin with an aluminium sheet over the top.
hth matt
ps totally agree with not fitting it all in the cabin, the last thing you want is pressurised petrol in the cabin.
I remember reading about this a long time ago on rx7club. Its an in tank setup.
http://www.rx7club.com/showthread.php?t=682991&highlight=tank
Shaun
The other way is to seperate the rear end of the cabin with a see through plastic sheet which would cut the smell an reduce danger which was my idea but never got round to it sadly.
http://www.mazdarotaryparts.com/bfd-fs004-mrp-exclusive-custom-made-fuel-swirlpotsb-775-p.asp
Hope this helps
We do an in-tank solution.
The problem you get with fuel swirl pots is it can only be 1.5 litres. Now with 2 1680cc injectors....how long do you think it is going to be before you drain a 1.5 litre swirl pot on full chat?? Proof of which is that TonyC has said he is still getting surge issues, and is now looking to run one of our tanks.
Its good to see that Clive has developed a swirl pot that is mounted out of the car. As most swirl pots are stuck in the boot and in the event of an accident would certainly split off resulting in fuel being sprayed about the inside of your car.
The swirl pot is conventionally filled from the same point...and so when the tank gets below 1/3 of a tank you still get starvation. Ours fills under braking as well as cornering, and is 3 litres. In theory you should be able to run your tank down to 5 litres. The tank is filled so to reduce slosh. And we mount the fuel pump internally too, as the Bosch doesn\'t like to draw uphill the lower you can keep this the better.
The cost of the conversion is £581.55, if you want a new 044 pump add another £110 on that. This doesn\'t include lines, as it will depend whether you want rubber or braided lines.
It does include an electronic fuel probe, as a conventional probe wont work very well in a foam filled tank. And all of the electrics pass through an hermetically sealed connector. We have replaced all of the plates with custom aluminium covers too.
Tony will be able to certify its worth when he tests it prior to the first race.
That\'s great info from everybody, thanks. :)
I guess the bottom line is that if you\'re on a trackday and remember to keep an eye on the fuel gauge, it shouldn\'t be an issue, but I can see how when racing it is more important.
Is there any benefit to a swirl pot if it is filled from the same point as the usual route?
Quote from: AtomicRex;573435We do an in-tank solution.
The problem you get with fuel swirl pots is it can only be 1.5 litres. Now with 2 1680cc injectors....how long do you think it is going to be before you drain a 1.5 litre swirl pot on full chat?? Proof of which is that TonyC has said he is still getting surge issues, and is now looking to run one of our tanks.
.
where was Tonys swirl pot mounted? mine is external in the wheel arch with two bosch drawing from it and i have had it on full chat at long lengths of time with no issues, maybe the lift pump was not up to it perhaps?
Feed do a nice intank collector, i read it lets you get very low on the tank.
We can sell the in tank collectors on their own, but to be honest you need to b4stardise the tank so thats why we do the conversion. On a long left hand bend you will get surge, also through chicanes you will get slosh. Running less than half a tank on a track day was always a no no....we ran the standard tank with 2 pick ups and even that had surge. This was using facet lift pumps so it certainly wasn\'t the pumps where the issue lay.
Interesting thread as I\'ve been thinking about getting a swirl pot too.
Just wondering what peoples thoughts are on a fuel tank baffle instead, e.g. http://www.neweraparts.com/Default.aspx?tabid=54&CategoryID=116&List=0&Level=a&ProductID=195
Any good? better or worse than swirl pot?
i run a swirl pot in the boot of my car. i love the smell and the noise, my cars totally stripped of everything for the track and the pump whirring just reminds me what kind of car im driving lol
i just sectioned of the rear of the car using polycarb sheeting and sealed it.
a question-how long do you thing a peice of pollycarb is gonna last in an accident or a problem resulting in a fire?have you got a pic?
I suppose it depends what you want your car for. I\'ve got the swirlpot for the first gen under the car, near the fuel tank.
it will last long enough for me to get out and thats enough for anyone. hell thats what kevlar suits are for they arent fire proof they just let you have enough time to get out if your really stuck, and if you really are stuck then your sweat boils in the fire and cooks you in the suit.
polycarb isnt flammable after all, however it does melt well but takes a while. i was running without it before. i only put it in because scrutineering remembered they had remeinded me at a previous drag racing event to put a minimum polycarb screen up. i can hardly see me having a terrible off on a quarter mile tbh.
yes a pipe may pop off the fuel pump and spray fuel in the boot, but im sure i\'ll notice that in my rear view and rip the kill switch out. but it needs an ignition source to ignite anyway.
its all if and buts though isnt it. if you want a totally safe car then just walk,but you could get hit by a bus ? so feck it just stay in ? ah no house fire?
another option
http://www.rhdjapan.com/jdm-low/FEED-Intank-Collector-Tank-FD3S-RX-7-51683
I get fuel starvation on the Nurburgring, car just gives a long hearty cough then back on it, not good for her so I\'m interested to see where this thread goes :) I also like my boot and general \'tourer\' style of my motor.
My swirl pot is (was) mounted in the rear passenger bin, sealed in an alluminium box (along with the filter and bosch 044). Fuul feed lines come through a hole in the body work to meet up with the fuel hard lines. The box was mounted by the sill and the main roll hoop struts so it would be very difficult to deform the box in an shunt. It was sealed up with a high temp, petrol resistance silcone sealent.
But it did surge in races, and max in the orange car has just fitted a 5 litre (!) swirl pot to try and cure the same problem in his car - so it can happen.
My swirl pot and some of the fuel lines will be up for sale shortly.
reworx also do a bolt in replacement to the stock charcoal canister, i have one of these with a stock pump for lift and an 044 and never had issues on the track or strip even with the fuel light on
colum
Same here thats what swirl pot I have with an Apexi BNR as the lift pump with two 044 pumps one feeding the primary rail one feeding the secondary.
I think the design or shape of the swirl pot is important, tall and thin is ideal rather then short and fat. If you imagine this proper racers taking long high G bends the correct shape will prevent the fuel sloshing to one side of the pot therefore the outlet holes will always be covered with fuel and never exposed
I have long made it know about my horrific fear for the guys who put a pressurised fuel system in the the car without a fire proof bulkhead to protect them, a search will show this,
Yes we offer a swirl pot to keep the fuel under the car but over the winter we developed and tested a system that allows you to operate a Bosch 044 in the tank with out any surge or feed issues,
Some of you know that Dave H G runs a big turbo with 850\'s and 1600\'s so he was a good "guinea pig" for us,
We are now able to offer non return valves that go in to the tank, one in each corner on a "T" piece to the pump and quite simply when one valve sees no fuel it then sucks from the other,
These are patented valves designed initially for Snow Skidoo\'s that need to have fuel delivered from ludicrous angles however what interested me more was that that most of the top works WRC rally cars use exactly this same valve to ensure they do not have fuel starvation problems,
Dave has run these valves in tank with an 044 now for the last few months and even reports that because these valves sit right on the bottom of the tank that he has actually run the tank bone dry till the engine has stopped!,
Although a bit fiddly to fit, at £34 plus vat each these offer a very good way of having an adiquate fuel delivery at all times with no baffling or exterior tanks, safely
Would you be able to offer a kit of bits ??
Shaun
Quote from: shaunwil;574313Would you be able to offer a kit of bits ??
Shaun
Hi Shaun,
Financialy it would not be viable for us to make this into a kit however an avid DIY\'er like you will have no problem plumbing these in :Viking
We will get these up on our shop over the next couple of days,
This is great info guys, thanks. :Thumbs-up
Quote from: Mazdarotaryparts;574310Although a bit fiddly to fit, at £34 plus vat each these offer a very good way of having an adiquate fuel delivery at all times with no baffling or exterior tanks, safely
Could this really be the golden bullet we have ALL been looking for for all these years?
Sign me up!
how exactly would you fit these in the tank surely you have to cut open the tank?
Just seen this, sounds good! As a complete mechanical numpty do I have a hope in hell of fitting this myself? Or fabricating whatever needs doing to use this?
Quote from: Mazdarotaryparts;574310We are now able to offer non return valves that go in to the tank, one in each corner on a "T" piece to the pump and quite simply when one valve sees no fuel it then sucks from the other,
These are patented valves designed initially for Snow Skidoo\'s that need to have fuel delivered from ludicrous angles however what interested me more was that that most of the top works WRC rally cars use exactly this same valve to ensure they do not have fuel starvation problems,
Dave has run these valves in tank with an 044 now for the last few months and even reports that because these valves sit right on the bottom of the tank that he has actually run the tank bone dry till the engine has stopped!,
Although a bit fiddly to fit, at £34 plus vat each these offer a very good way of having an adiquate fuel delivery at all times with no baffling or exterior tanks, safely
Quote from: RobMatthews;574439how exactly would you fit these in the tank surely you have to cut open the tank?
Would have thought the hole in the top is big enough to get your arm into the tank ! Depends on how the baffles are arranged !
Shaun
hi guys,
i did infact fit this system a while ago when clive and myself got chatting about a new fuel system, i run a 044 pump mounted under the car and no pickup pump in the tank which simplfies things. Both pickups are joined to each other by a T then to the original fuel pump pick up pipe in the tank.
I have run the T51 on 1.2 bar of boost down the motorway then about 1 mile off the motorway the car started chugging and needed fuel. on the old pickup system normally id get symptons of fuel starvation (air being picked up) at about or just under the 1/4 tank mark but so far so good and no problems.
Dave
Sounds like a good idea and its not expensive! (Makes a change for an FD owner)!
My 044 is in tank (no sock) so these would fit to a \'T\' piece attached to the 044?
Is Dave\'s petrol tank a 92 or a 96?
hi, your not able to fit a 044 intank with this setup as the size of the pump seems to be too long (i found it to tight of a fit by the time you put the threaded connectors on the pump to allow a normal fuel hose to be attached) my fd is a 1993
We have now put our "Fuel Surge Eliminators" up on our shop so you can buy them if you wish,
http://www.mazdarotaryparts.com/b-fd-fs02-fuel-surge-eliminatorb-1401-p.asp
dave, i dont quite understand what you mean when you say it started chugging and needed fuel, why did it do this??
do you have any pictures or anything?? i carnt work it out in my head how its a plumbed in or am i just been thick lol
also when you say the 044 is too long, do you mean it sits to far down in the tank??
i have a apexi bnr so do you think these will work ok with it??
cheers
karl
Hi Karl,
These should work with any pump, what i mean is that by the time i added on the fittings that i got from pirtek the overall length of the pump (044) with fittings was just about the depth of the fuel tank which was why i mounted my pump externally.
If you run low on fuel any car will "chug" as the engine gets a mixture of fuel and air through the injectors ie not enough fuel as requested.
Im not sure if i have any pics of the pump set up but will look to see if i can find one.
thanks for that, i understand now, think i was too tired yesterday lol
i also understand what you mean by chugging as well, not sure why but i read it totally wrong, thought that you had loads of fuel and it started to chug :rolleyes:
no worries about pics if you dont have any.
oh and how did you mount them??
sorry for all the questions :p
cheers
karl
Dont suppose you fancy fitting some for me Dave :Thumbsup!
hi lee, id love to if i had all the bits required :Giggle took me a little bit to figure out how to make it work but well worth it.... still looking for some pics guys
here is a pic i found of the 044 with the attachements up against my old uprated pump just to show how long it makes it.....
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v703/davehg/DSC00054.jpg)
Thats long! Shame as I want to keep my pump inside the tank to avoid having to fabricate a fire shield in the boot, I worry about stones on the underside too... Must be a way thats not expensive?!
No wonder it looks so long, theres much shorter direct connectors you can use.
Sock directly off the bottom and the size difference isnt an issue.
So it would fit Ross? You think the valves would be enough or would you recommend foam or the Feed intank metal thingy??
im just wondering how you managed to mount the valves in the tank?? did you need to take the tank out to get access??
i think you could use the 044 pump ben, if you get smaller connectors like ross said. obviously the bottom of the pump doesnt need to be in fuel so could be mounted higher up.
cheers
karl
Yeah, I think its the way to go, rather than spend 160 on the ali Feed unit these may solve the issue at a reduced cost.
I\'d have though you just lift the pump out through the acces hole, change the fitting and attach the valves - drop back in the lump and fill up. Well thats what I hopes involveld!
The way i understand it after speaking to Clive is that they sit on the bottom of your tank on each side then you have a pipe connecting the two and tee off to your pump. I think thats right but im sure Clive will correct me if im wrong
Lee
yeh thats the way dave has explained it, sounds really good.
the only query for me is how they can be mounted in the tank easy or i would have bought some of these when clive first advertised them :D
will be fitting some of these at some stage. there on my to do list:rolleyes:
Ahh right I see so whether the fuel sloshes to one side or the other in theory they will always have a supply of fuel. I guess a small bracket would be best to hold them in place.
forgot to ask about this bit maybe they are held in place by some sort of suction hopefully Dave or Clive will see this & let us know
So you lose the sock with this pickup?
How does it combat acceleration-starvation when all the fuel is at the back of the tank (not left/right)?
I can see this is a great option due to the price, but what it doesn\'t do is stop slosh...you still have a very flat tank with petrol moving front to rear and left to right. Also there isn\'t the capacity to hold a good level of fuel similar to a swirl pot.
Our system is 3L, and fills on acceleration and cornering left and right. It also is sufficiently baffled to prevent any slosh. It comes with an electronic fuel sender which will give a more accurate reading too.
For on the road....I can imagine Clive\'s unit is a good compromise. But if you want to have the security of continuous flow....Id say our system will be able to offer that.
slosh is not an issue if you are picking up fuel from directly off the bottom, this system works on pressure differential to contol the valves, as soon as the pressure changes (drops on the oump side of the filter) the valve closes and the second valve continues to pick up fuel. Both pick ups are positioned in different positions in the fuel resevoir inside the tank.
At the end of the day if you run any tank low on fuel including swirl pots your asking for trouble. This is in my opinion is not only the cheapest but also by far the safest (no fuel in car) way of solving the pick up problem with the 044 pumps without having to go to all the expense of new tanks, fuel lines, swirl pots etc. Personally i dont like the idea of fuel being pumped at high pressure into the car, one leak with one spark and its good bye car.
Ive tested clives device for many months now with no issues what so ever no matter how it is driven or how much fuel is in the tank.
im runing a T51, 1600 secondarys with 850 primarys so not exactly a small system.
im just going to buy these, try and figure a setup out, and see what happens :yes
Quote from: karl_tate;577615im just going to buy these, try and figure a setup out, and see what happens :yes
please take pics and a full write up
Thanks
Lee
will all be in my rebuild thread :D
Ahh nice one, look forward to seeing the pics.
Spoke to Clive and the valves sit at the bottom of the tank - they don\'t attach to it.
An excellent idea! :D
Dave just trying to sort out my fueling issues and i am thinking of using these any chance of a chat on the blower asap to discuss a few things
Thanks
Lee
i still havent managed to get these fitted yet, have been thinking how im going to mount them but until i get all the fuel out and have a look in the tank i wont know.
Quote from: AtomicRex;573435We do an in-tank solution.
The problem you get with fuel swirl pots is it can only be 1.5 litres. Now with 2 1680cc injectors....how long do you think it is going to be before you drain a 1.5 litre swirl pot on full chat?? Proof of which is that TonyC has said he is still getting surge issues, and is now looking to run one of our tanks.
Hi,
Was amazed when I read this, then on giving it further thought I just can\'t work out how this is physically possible.. :confused:
Previously I ran a swirl pot (buried in the rear wheel well, and yes lines came through the car but they were metal braided). It was 1l, and given the setup it\'s just not physically possible to drain it if correctly installed?
The return line from the carb/injector rail will go back to the swirl pot not the tank (or it should do) and the take off is at the bottom. It is filled from the top by a lift pump from the main tank capable of outdragging the engine requirements (red top or something), plus an overflow from the very top that vents back to the main tank. So the draw is only the fuel that\'s actually used.
So for you to drain a 1.5l swirl pot you need to have ingested, and not had returned, 1.5l in the time it takes to execute the /corner/ and enable the pump to refill the pot.
So either the lift pump isn\'t filling the swirl pot quickly enough (needs upgrading) or the return line has been fed back to the main tank instead of the pot. So I\'m lost as to why your swirl pot needs to be 3l.
With this set up correctly installed I could run the race car dry of fuel, and this worked with other race cars too, both injection and carb on road tyres, race tyres and full slicks. All of them had the lift pump and pot hiding in the plated off wheel well.
Nowadays I have an ATL fuel cell, with an in-tank high pressure pump direct to the main fuel line. It sits inside a baffled collector pot and is pretty good, but frankly less efficient when you are scraping the bottom of the tank than the swirl pot twin pump system. It will surge when we get down to vapours. It was installed for extra capacity only.
I\'m presumably missing something so wait to be educated!
Cheers
Stacy
Quote from: karl_tate;593527i still havent managed to get these fitted yet, have been thinking how im going to mount them but until i get all the fuel out and have a look in the tank i wont know.
Old thread revival, but just want to make sure im doing this right and if you have any better suggestions
Pic bellow is how I plan on setting up
(http://i612.photobucket.com/albums/tt207/suiteproductions/AntiSurgeadapter.jpg)
This is a really interesting thread never seen it before just had a good read :)
Mazdarotary parts sells all the bits needed for that setup. You need no return valves too.
Shaun
Quote from: shaunwil;677954Mazdarotary parts sells all the bits needed for that setup. You need no return valves too.
Shaun
Have spoken to clive, he sells the anti surge filters but not any other fittings,
Ah, sorry. Looks distinctly like that is what you want. If your after fittings and pipe try http://www.thinkauto.com/acatalog/intro.html
Shaun
thats how i was going to do it but not use the metal pipe to keep them away as im sure the hose will do that job once its got fuel in. plus they will move around a bit as the fuel sloshes about so should be all good.
i didnt actually fit mine, still have them if anyone is interested.
Quote from: karl_tate;678927thats how i was going to do it but not use the metal pipe to keep them away as im sure the hose will do that job once its got fuel in. plus they will move around a bit as the fuel sloshes about so should be all good.
i didnt actually fit mine, still have them if anyone is interested.
How much do you want for them, can never have enough pick ups !! :Thumbsup!
Quote from: stacy;593645Hi,
Was amazed when I read this, then on giving it further thought I just can\'t work out how this is physically possible.. :confused:
Previously I ran a swirl pot (buried in the rear wheel well, and yes lines came through the car but they were metal braided). It was 1l, and given the setup it\'s just not physically possible to drain it if correctly installed?
The return line from the carb/injector rail will go back to the swirl pot not the tank (or it should do) and the take off is at the bottom. It is filled from the top by a lift pump from the main tank capable of outdragging the engine requirements (red top or something), plus an overflow from the very top that vents back to the main tank. So the draw is only the fuel that\'s actually used.
So for you to drain a 1.5l swirl pot you need to have ingested, and not had returned, 1.5l in the time it takes to execute the /corner/ and enable the pump to refill the pot.
So either the lift pump isn\'t filling the swirl pot quickly enough (needs upgrading) or the return line has been fed back to the main tank instead of the pot. So I\'m lost as to why your swirl pot needs to be 3l.
With this set up correctly installed I could run the race car dry of fuel, and this worked with other race cars too, both injection and carb on road tyres, race tyres and full slicks. All of them had the lift pump and pot hiding in the plated off wheel well.
Nowadays I have an ATL fuel cell, with an in-tank high pressure pump direct to the main fuel line. It sits inside a baffled collector pot and is pretty good, but frankly less efficient when you are scraping the bottom of the tank than the swirl pot twin pump system. It will surge when we get down to vapours. It was installed for extra capacity only.
I\'m presumably missing something so wait to be educated!
Cheers
Stacy
Correct, we have never had problems with swirl pots, even with 8 injectors on the drag car, just has to be the right size and also you have to bear in mind the contant return from the fuel rails.
erm, not really sure, carnt even remember what i paid for them. email me at karl_tate@hotmail.com and we can sort something out.
email sent !!! :driving:driving