i am running an fd with a non sequential setup apexi powerfc etc all setup by reworx. its been running sweet for the last year just had an oil change a few weeks ago and every level etc checked over. however today i went on a 20 mile run to poole to spend xmas cash everything was fine running sweet didnt cane it give it some beens a couple of times overtaking but thats about it. but after i had been into one shop after looking round for about 20 mins i drove down the road for about 5 mins pulled away from a set of lights on a duel carriagway and noticed it wasnt pulling.
i checked boost gauge it read zero, pulled over checked small vaccum pipes all on,checked the main inlet flexis between turbos and throttle couldnt find anything. the car is running fine no smoke good idle no hunting so i set off home 20 miles, it ran fine except no turbo boost whatsoever. i listened and it still sounds like i can hear a turbo spinning up but no whooshes or air leaks when i put my foot down.both the apexi and the greddy boost controller dont register any boost at all just the negative figures they have when its not boosting.
its got me scratching my head :confused::confused::confused:
anyone got any thoughts or had similar happen to them.
cheers
si
MAP Sensor maybe ?? Using PFC u can check if it is working properly!!
i did think that the map sensor might be the prob is this likely to give zero boost though?? do you know how to check if it working properly on the pfc?
has no one else come across this before?? i have read as many threads as i can find and it seems people get lots of issues with partial/low boost from the rats nest running sequential but i cant find any that have gotten zero boost before let alone non sequential????? :3Confused:3Confused:3Confused:3Confused:3Confused
It\'s strange that you have no boost at all, normally the boost drops to 7psi or so and this can be traced to a solenoid or split pipe. But i\'ve not heard of 0 boost, might be worth checking the y-pipe coupler just incase it\'s come loose or split.
This does sound odd Si, i would have thought you would hear a huge wooshing noise at least if there was a hose popped off, you are not far from Tim at RX Motors, he would sort it very quick if you are not sure what to do next, let me know if you need his address,
Good luck Bob
Quote from: ro284;569155This does sound odd Si, i would have thought you would hear a huge wooshing noise at least if there was a hose popped off, you are not far from Tim at RX Motors, he would sort it very quick if you are not sure what to do next, let me know if you need his address,
Good luck Bob
yeah it is odd. sort of gets a bit confusing that its running smooth but no boost and that as its non seq aswell so most of the solenoids etc arent used which are normally the main culprit for this sort of thing. ive been to rxmotors a few times for spares i\'m only in weymouth so bout half an hour from them. was thinking of phoning them and reworx up to see if they had any ideas that i can check over before taking my car in to one of them. was sort of hopeing someone might of come across this before so i could take it into my mates workshop and sort it myself :confused:
The only time I had anything similar was when my primary turbo shat a blade. It was so mullered that as soon as it tried to spool up, the shaft play from the imbalance meant the impeller wheel just wedged itself solid into the housing, and with the primary wide open, obviously the secondary was never gonna get going either. Hence, no boost. That\'s on a normal sequential set up, but I guess the effect would be the same on non-seq because if the primary isn\'t spinning all the gas will just vent straight past it? :confused: I think....
well ive gone out and checked all the pipes again and cant find any splits. i have checked all the sensor readings on the pfc and none are faulty and the pim sensor (which after a bit of searching appears to be the map sensor) is working with voltage going up and down as i touch the throttle.
nik if the primary is jammed surely i would still get at least some boost but mine doesnt go above zero.
has anyone ever had a wastegate jam open?? would that give zero boost or just low boost??
If you have the stock turbo\'s, then the wastegate sticking open shouldn\'t mean that you\'ve got no boost at all, just not a lot of boost.
I\'d spend the first 5 minutes going through the hoses from the turbo\'s to the intake manifold - it does sound more like a leak somewhere, even if you can\'t hear it...
Another classic is the intake hose to the turbo\'s. This can collapse under load when it gets warm, and reduce the boost significantly, but this would only occur once the turbo\'s and engine were warm, and not before.
is your boost gauge plumbed in OK? *grin* if it\'s come off the manifold, it could be enough of a leak to stop the second turbo spooking, and you wouldn\'t see any movement on the needle. Does it move at all, or is it stationary ALL the time?
Quote from: Archbish;569325is your boost gauge plumbed in OK? *grin* if it\'s come off the manifold, it could be enough of a leak to stop the second turbo spooking, and you wouldn\'t see any movement on the needle. Does it move at all, or is it stationary ALL the time?
boost gauge is fine as i have a seperate greddy pro 2 and the apexi pfc. both read the same they go to negative boost rising and falling on normal running but neither go above zero. being non seq the thing i can\'t get my head around is why no boost at all. surely if one tub had gone pop the other would still spool at least at higher revs :2Confused:2Confused
Definitely sounds like a boost leak then... You\'ll just need to double check all the points of failure (top of y-pipe, boost hoses, throttle body bolts, etc) to start with, and go from there...
got filters off took front 90 bend off can see the turbo spinning but only when you give it some beans at low revs it hardly moves at all stopping half the time. it has very little endplay as they were turbo technics units done 5k ago at a cost of 1850 quid by the previous owner. the actuator and waste gate are moving and free. can find no leaks anywhere. if the y pipe is the pipe on top of the turbos that would normaly have some valves on it mine is a metal one with a blanking plate fitted.
is there an internal way for the exhaust gases to bypass the turbos besides the wastegate??? has anyone had the wastegate actuator and control arm move but have it shared internally so its open???
i am even more stumped than i was.
update:
took off a few inlet pipes to check the turbos. the front one hardly moves stopping on tickover and only moving a little on low revs only spinning when you give it some revs. got a camera down the back turbo which is not spinning at all.
any ideas on this bearing in mind this is non seq with all the valves/bypass valves removed and blanked off. i am thinking maybe the wastgate has sheared internally stoppping the turbo pressure building up. has anyone seen anything like this????
Yeah, sounds like what mine was doing. Don\'t quite understand the exact mechanics of it all, but if the primary\'s jamming, it\'ll never change over properly to the secondary cos it isn\'t building the correct pressure to switch. It was explained to me something like that, only a lot more complicated, and that\'s my rather short and hazy-memoried version of it :confused:. Dunno how different that\'d be for a non-sequential set-up, though.
....not being much help really, sorry :Hammer
Quote from: Nik da Greek;569361Yeah, sounds like what mine was doing. Don\'t quite understand the exact mechanics of it all, but if the primary\'s jamming, it\'ll never change over properly to the secondary cos it isn\'t building the correct pressure to switch. It was explained to me something like that, only a lot more complicated, and that\'s my rather short and hazy-memoried version of it :confused:. Dunno how different that\'d be for a non-sequential set-up, though.
....not being much help really, sorry :Hammer
thing is mine desnt have all that gubbins on to change to the 2nd as its non sequential.
Yeah, that\'s why I dont think I\'m being too much help....
Quote from: Nik da Greek;569370Yeah, that\'s why I dont think I\'m being too much help....
hehe np mate some feedback and ideas is def better than none.
ive just spoken to turbo technics who supplied the turbos gone through everything and his response is either cracked or broken wastegate stopping the turbos spooling up at all or at least not enought to do anything.
so unless anyone else comes up with any ideas i will be taking the turbos off to check it all out. and i really dont want to do that in this weather :eek::eek::eek:
although i have posted some bits of what ive done i thought i would post it in a bit more detail to see if anyone else has any ideas before i take the tubs off. this is what ive found
front turbo is fine very little endfloat (they were new from turbo technics around 5-10k ago) and spins freely. however on idle and below 2k revs it hardly moves and actually stops most of the time. when you rev it hard it does spin up but not what i would call quickly.
the wastegate actuator works fine and the actuator rod moves and so does the arm on the wastegate. however we activated the actuator at around 4k revs and it made little or no diference to the speed of the front turbo.
used an inspection camera down the rear turbo inlet to check the movement but on idle and when we reved the car there was no movement.
removed all flexis between turbo and throttle body none are split all were tight.
visually checked the ic which is a trust alluminium smic and could see no splits.
visually checked the vaccum pipes could find no splits all the controls and valves for the sequential setup have all been blanked and removed as this is non seq so not much to go wrong.
anyone got any ideas bearing in mind that i have zero boost not just low boost none at all.
cheers
si
i\'m no turbo expert, but might it be something to do with the turbine and not the compressor? maybe if a few of the vanes on the turbine have bent/broken and the exhaust gasses aren\'t flowing over them properly, it would stop the compressor from spinning, or even if something is lodged in the shaft or centre housing?
not sure if this would have an effect on both turbos, and i guess the only way to find out would be to pull them anyway!
update:
i managed to strip enough of the pipework etc ready to take the tubs off to check the rear tub to see if it spins. the simple answer is no well it didnt but after a bit of wiggleing it does now but it jams and rattles/jangles from the exhaust side. there doesnt seem to be to much endfloat on the air side and i have managed to get my fingers into the manifold to check the vains on the exhaust side they all seem to be intacked but it does move then seem to jam.
what i find strange about this and please correct me if i\'m wrong but the most probable cause is bearing failure (i am hoping that nothing has come from engine side and is jamming it up) however normally if a bearing fails doesnt the oil seal go and send oil down the inlet side?? this is what i have seen on other cars! maybe someone else has had this kind of failure before?? unless maybe the oil feed pipe is blocked that caused it to fail hense no oil anywhere!!
hopefully will get it stripped down tommorrow and will be able to get to the bottom of it.
Hows it going Si, any updates?
Bob
yeah it sounds like a bearing failure. turbos dont always smoke when bust.
sorry for its been a while been a bit busy on the car heres an update.
stripped the turbos off the car found that the previous owner\'s idea of finishing the non seq setup was not very good. the bracket holding the pre spool flap open was moving causing the flap to open and close a little bit this caused it to constantly tap agains a 20mm dowel that had been welded inside the manifold to keep the pre spool flap open (one spot weld is all that held it) speaking to the previous owner he said he had no knowledge that it was there. anyway what happened is the spot weld broke and luckily for me rather than drop in the engine it literally just stopped the 2nd turbo from spinning causing complete loss of boost. you can imagine what was going through my mind when this piece of metal/dowel dropped out of the turbos.
i have since stripped everything down and i am glad to say there isnt a mark on the turbo vains no damage whatsoever it literally jammed in place when i stopped and luckily didnt bounce all over the place. i\'m very glad about that as the tubs were brand new from turbo technics and have only covered about 10k.
so the things i have done since i have stripped everything down. i had to drill 2 studs out of the manifold which ive done and whilst it was off i got the pre spool inlet welded up and then ported and matched both exhaust outlets to the gasket so they are now the same size and flowed (if anyone has seen the outlet in the manifold is much smaller for the 2nd turbo than the first prob because it took into account the pre spool port aswell) matched the inlets on the turbo pack to the manifold/gasket aswell also took out some of the sharp angles inside the manifold for flow i also removed the pre spool flap and and got both the inlet side and outlet side of that area welded up so no exhaust would flow that way disturbing flow into the 2nd turbo. matched all the housings to gaskets taking out any sharp edges/angles at the same time and did some flowing.
also on closer inspection the wastegate was standard (it was supposed to be ported) so i etched the outline of the flap and have taken the opening down to about 1/2 a mm all around instead of the 3 mm that was there and flowed an cut back inside as it was very restrictive inside with 90 degree angles so that has been flowed aswell.
all these mods have been taken from details of the rich mans non sequential setup from here http://www.rx7club.com/showthread.php?t=663013&highlight=non+sequential and a few other threads on the site i have not gone quite as far as these pics because frankly i dont have 40 hours free to do it.
anyway this is supposed to allow the turbos to spool up quicker moving peak power further down the rev range. whether or not it does is another matter but i thought seeing as i had the turbo pack off i may aswell do things right.
sorry for not doing any pics it was the last thing on my mind when i was sorting this out.
and if anyone is thinking of doing anything like this get a carbide cutter i got one that fits in a dremel for around a tenner it really goes through the manifold/housings like butter then finis with some grinding stones and the a sanding flapper wheel for final smoothing.
i hope this makes sense.
Glad you\'re getting it sorted bud. And how lucky was that, time for you to go buy a lotto ticket if your luck is that good at the mo!
update:
ive just got the car back together without any major dramas. once it was run up and all the fluids sorted i took it for a 10 mile run just to see how it was. i have to say i am more than happy the turbos are reaching peak between 500-800rpm sooner which may not sound a lot but makes it pick up that bit quicker. also after all the porting etc the car is much smoother on pick up at lower revs aswell makeng for a nicer drive.
:Thumbsup! Well done Si, good work there, with some good results, sounds as though the mods you did would be good as part of the non seq mod,interesting that the spool up is earlier in the rev range.
Bob