Hi all!
Excuse my ignorance as I\'m new to the world of Rotary but I like what I see.:Thumbs-up I am looking at using an RX-8 for Motorsport use. The RX-8 is homologated and class rules mean I can use any normally aspirated (N/A)Mazda engine up to 2000cc/1.3 wankel.
I am about to buy an RX-8, is the engine in the RX-8 the best solution for getting about 300 bhp or should I be looking at buying a 13B engine from the RX-7. Does anyone know which engines you can get the most power from reliably and finally who are the best engine builders in Europe?
I am aware that a lot of MK2 Escorts run N/A 13B engines. Are these 13B engines form the RX-8\'s of RX-7\'s. Will I have to buy both an RX-8 and then the best engine seperately?
I would be very greatful for any comments.
Thanks a mill,
RxRebel.
The first thing I would say is that if you\'re looking to swap engines I wouldn\'t go anywhere but another rotary. A piston engine would not be worth the effort.
As for engine tuning, it\'s not been easy particularly in terms of naturally aspirated tuning. Without serious changes it\'s difficult to get more power out of the stock setup.
The UK model is rated as having 228 bhp and the japanese model was rated as having 237bhp. The R3 is rated as having 235 bhp and those that have driven it say the R3 motor feels noticeably stronger than the 228bhp in the Original RX8. Now according to some tests in America where they tested the 6 port Renesis (228bhp in the UK) against the N/A Six Port from the FC RX7 the Renesis is making better power throughout the rev range indicating the progress between the two.
The problem with getting more power out of the RX8 is the PCM (Powertrain Control Module) it\'s difficult to remap successfully and piggybacking it can cause it to go into limp home mode. Solutions are coming but it\'s taking time and it\'s not going to liberate lots of power on its own. I don\'t know of many RX8s racing other than those which got used in the Formula Women series and I think those were stock motors.
There are several RX8s running around with 300bhp or so but they are using forced induction and so far only one is using a remapped stock ECU (Pettit Racing). My guess is that you\'d need to change the induction tract a fair bit to liberate the extra power. The fuel system should cope with it (Greddy, Blitz and Pettit all use stock fuel systems on their FI tuning packages for the RX8) even the brakes and suspension seem well able to cope with the extra power.
There was a chap in Belgium who built an Renesis Engined Sports Prototype who may have some ideas about power and how it should be done.
This is his website: http://www.rotarydevelopment.net/
yep it is going to be hard to get the RX8 engine up to 300bhp and keep it NA,easiest way is to turbo/supercharge, you may get it up to 250bhp with a remap,decent exhaust and keep it NA. Any more then you are looking at major mods and money to keep it NA and 300bhp eg taking the engine apart making it a Proper Peripheral Ported engine after market ECU, fabrication for Throttle boddies etc.
The Americans whack in the 20B Tripple Rotor from the Cosmo and make it NA and this is the most reliable way of getting 300bhp but this would be a 1.9 litre wankel engine so breaking your class rules.
WGT in Cheshire have good experiance in building race engines for circuits give them a call
HKS do do a F Con V Pro Gold loom now to link to the HKS ecu, maybe able to get a bit more out but as said above only forced induction and supercharge will get anywhere near 300bhp.
Hayward Rotary made a Three Rotor Renesis (Side Port) rotary for a drift RX7 that was making well over 300bhp. It\'s big advantage was it was quiet. That said putting a 3 rotor where a 2 rotor was can give issues with weight distribution.
Would have thought as long as noise isn\'t an issue then a PP 13b would by far be the best option. It would need to be of an older engine because the RX8 has the ports in the wrong place for mad tunning !
Although didn\'t re-ameria do a kit for the rx8 that was na that made silly power ??
Shaun
Re-amemiya did get 300bhp out of an N/A RX8. I think it used N/A 13B-RE housings with RX8 rotors, however it was a bit of a pig because it ran a lot of overlap and wasn\'t tractable at low revs, good for racing but not for road, pretty expensive too. Because the RX8 runs side ports it\'s difficult to get the overlap necessary for big power at high rpm without forced induction. It\'s a shame really but as I am finding getting more power out of an RX8 is an expensive business.
an NA 8 wont see much power increase without major investment of time and money. But a smallish increase is possible by letting it breath easier and tweaking the tune.
Do your class rules mean it must stay NA?
A custom built 13b engine using a combination of RX8 rotors,and Peripheral Port rotor housings with a custom throttle body and ecu would be what you want. That should make around 300hp,and if noise is not to much of an issue then it will make more hp.
Regards
Carl
carl, what did the 3 rotor in the same spec make?, that would give an indication of what to expect from a 2 rotor
Quote from: HaywardRotary;561998A custom built 13b engine using a combination of RX8 rotors,and Peripheral Port rotor housings with a custom throttle body and ecu would be what you want. That should make around 300hp,and if noise is not to much of an issue then it will make more hp.
Regards
Carl
Thanks for all your comments, it seems it\'s not easy to get power out of the RX-8 engine. But, sometimes he who dares wins...
A few points:
1. The engine cannot be either Super or Turbocharged under any circumstances and must not have a greater capacity than 1300cc wankel/2000cc normal.
2. I will be definitely sticking with the Rotary.
3. I intend on using Motec Engine Management and doing whatever it takes to get 300BHP. Ideally I would settle for 285BHP and heaps more torque but it seems torque is really out of the question with these engines. So, without much torque I will need a minimum of 300BHP to be competitive.
4. The 231 BHP UK model will be my starting point but I will buy a car from continental Europe as I am used to left hand drive and for Motorsport there is a much better market for LHD cars.
5. Noise is one of biggest concerns, the noise from about 1 foot from the tip of the exhaust must not exceed 100 db\'s at 4500rpm. The FIA are very strict with their noise tests.
6. Essentailly the engine would be built to Group A spec which is the
equivalent to the kind of power found in BTCC & WTCC touring car engines.
7. The car will run with a sequntial flat shift gearbox.
Carl, I am glad to see there is light at the end of the tunnel! So, if I buy an RX-8, the engine will not be a complete waste?
RxRebel
100db at 4500 rpm shouldn\'t be a problem. It\'ll be at 9500 rpm that will create issues.
Quote from: RxRebels;562078Thanks for all your comments, it seems it\'s not easy to get power out of the RX-8 engine. But, sometimes he who dares wins...
A few points:
1. The engine cannot be either Super or Turbocharged under any circumstances and must not have a greater capacity than 1300cc wankel/2000cc normal.
2. I will be definitely sticking with the Rotary.
3. I intend on using Motec Engine Management and doing whatever it takes to get 300BHP. Ideally I would settle for 285BHP and heaps more torque but it seems torque is really out of the question with these engines. So, without much torque I will need a minimum of 300BHP to be competitive.
4. The 231 BHP UK model will be my starting point but I will buy a car from continental Europe as I am used to left hand drive and for Motorsport there is a much better market for LHD cars.
5. Noise is one of biggest concerns, the noise from about 1 foot from the tip of the exhaust must not exceed 100 db\'s at 4500rpm. The FIA are very strict with their noise tests.
6. Essentailly the engine would be built to Group A spec which is the
equivalent to the kind of power found in BTCC & WTCC touring car engines.
7. The car will run with a sequntial flat shift gearbox.
Carl, I am glad to see there is light at the end of the tunnel! So, if I buy an RX-8, the engine will not be a complete waste?
RxRebel
Noise on the static test is worse than when the car is running around the track,but since the car is pretty big there should be no reason that with a comprehensive exhaust system the noise can\'t get to that figure,also with fuel injection it will improve the midrange as well as top end.
Some parts from the RX8 engine can still be used yes.
Regards
Carl
Hello and first of all welcome to Mazdarotaryclub,
Unless your going to up against BRG Cosworth engines and the like you should find the Rotary should offer a good way of being very very competitive, plus cheap because you wont need the expense of steel cranks, fancy cams or big valve heads etc etc,
As said above one of the first things your going to need to do is get rid of the stock management system preferably for a Motec system or as said above the HKS V Con pro as this way you can not only gain power but have the car tuned for race without the constraints of it needing to be driven on the road and get the power properly focused where your going to need it in the rev range,
The Rotary will bring more gain than a piston engine with intake and exhaust mods, hopefully you can get rid of the cast exhaust manifold as I think you will find that a custom manifold with long primary\'s should give good power gains and whilst it may be obvious, you will really need the most free flowing exhaust system you can get away with noise wise as this will help the Rotary, once again more than a piston engine.
You may already know that the RX-8 was raced in Britcar over here to very good effect with the real speed of these cars coming through dumping weight and the suspension system which is a very good system as stock and will really only need springs shocks and bars to get it going quick, if your up against "conventional" saloons I would say this is where your going to really score by using an RX-8,
There are already good roll cages on the market for the RX-8 as obviously a good cage will let the already good suspension work properly when the platform its attached to is nice and rigid.
The Britcar team actually took the route of leaving the engines alone and just kitting them out with a Motec ECU as by their own admission they didn\'t know enough about the Rotary to mess around with it, however they did very well with the cars.
Also last but not least you will find there are two reputable four pot upgrade kits out there on the market to take care of braking for you as once again the Britcar RX-8\'s had these fitted.
Hope the above helps,
Whilst at this stage we are not sure what type of cars etc your up against, I wish you well and success on you new "adventure" and please keep us informed of your progress as we have people from all over the world who will follow your new project,
AS regards exhaust manifolds, Racing Beat do one for the RX8 that will only fit LHD. If you\'re getting a continental one then why not go for this!
Quote from: Will66;562143AS regards exhaust manifolds, Racing Beat do one for the RX8 that will only fit LHD. If you\'re getting a continental one then why not go for this!
Steady, nobody knows if the Racing Beat will fit RHD yet, not even them,
I have told Racing Beat that I am sure this manifold will clear the steering rod and when they are avaliable I\'m going to try one on my car for them .
Thanks for the support guys, it\'s encouuraging to hear that 300 bhp is achievable within the sound constaints. It sounds as though our project is achievable, succesfully I hope! :eek
It\'s all this porting stuff that gets confusing, peripheral port, parallel port, bridge port. Everybody seems to think each one of them is the way to go??? Am I correct in saying the 13B-Ren is a peripheral port?
The engine is my primary concern if we can get the right kind of power we need everything else can be knitted together as I am confident the rest of the package will be excellent. The engine will use FIA homologated fuel (102 Ron)
Can anybody tell the spec of the engine in the link below:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I9WXEQpvdQk&feature=related
Here are the engine reg\'s:
"Touring Cars Group A with rear-wheel drive and a normally aspirated engine, conforming to Appendix J Group A (Articles 252 to 255).
The Cylinder capacity is limited to 2000cm3, the engine can be turned 90 degrees to transform from front to rear wheel drive. The engine is free but the engine block must be from a model of car of the same original registered trademark as the cars original bodywork.
Variable Valve Timing is not permitted
Variable Length inlet trumpets are forbidden
Titanium is not permitted except in connecting rods, valves, valve retainers and heat shields
The use of magnesium is not permitted in moving parts
The use of any ceramic component is forbidden
Internal and/or external spraying or injection of water or any substance whatsoever is forbidden (other than fuel for the normal purpose of combustion in the engine)
The use of carbon or composite materials is restricted to clutches and non-stressed covers or ducts.
Only a direct mechanical linkage between the throttle pedal and the engine load control device is permitted.
The tunnels used for the passage of the exhaust must remain open to the outside along at least two thirds of their length."
Does anyone see any stumbling blocks with the above reg\'s and achieving 300 BHP from a 13B Ren.
Rx Rebel.
Quote from: clive;562146Steady, nobody knows if the Racing Beat will fit RHD yet, not even them,
I have told Racing Beat that I am sure this manifold will clear the steering rod and when they are avaliable I\'m going to try one on my car for them .
Aha, but RxRebel said he was gonna go with a LHD car as the base for his track car, however if he goes peripheral port it\'s a moot point anyway since it won\'t fit.
As for the RX8 engine (13B-MSP) is not peripheral ported, all its ports are on the side faces of the rotor chambers. It\'s to do with efficiency rather than power. Peripheral Ports are on the rotor housing (the outer edge of the chamber, the surface on which the apex seals run) and allow for large ports and big power. The RX8 rotors are lighter than the RX7 ones and have more upmarket seals I believe.
I\'d take your spec to a reputable Rotary Builder, Hayward Rotaries (since Carl Hayward has posted in this thread) for instance. I\'d love to see an RX8 racing with that kind of power N/A. My quest for similar oomph will be coming from some form of forced induction I\'m afraid since mine is a road car and my daily driver currently, although may become weekend warrior.
Soory Will but you clearly stated that the Racing Beat would only fit LHD which was not correct as not even RB know this yet!,
Sorry to correct you as nobody likes to be wrong moot point or no moot point :cheers
Even, I\'m wrong sometimes, or is it right sometimes, ah well I know it\'s one or the other :rollin
My bad! You\'d think they\'d check. LHD should be easier since there\'s no steering column that side.
Had a quick look at the rules (below) and the first thing I can see that will be good for you is that you can aim to trim the car down to 840 kilos as it will be classed as a 1300cc
Not sure your going to quite find 300 flywheel brake but add a good ECU with the correct tuning, a good inhale and exhale system to get those two lungs working properly I don\'t think your be too far away from what you want.
Most importantly as said above, you should end up with a good package,
http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/37CD0FA342778EECC12573C4003FD439/$FILE/255%20(08-09).pdf
Good luck out there
Quote from: RxRebels;562327Can anybody tell the spec of the engine in the link below:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I9WXEQpvdQk&feature=related
Im the builder of this engine and i put it together tho Pirkka who compete in the Norweigan rallycross season. The 2007 season the engine was running with a 51mm downdraft carb and MSD ignition and he finished 3 total this season.
For the 2008 season we made some changes on the fuel and ignition setup and the engine is now running with a Swedish made fuel and ignition system( Prospark EFi System ) and Pirkka finished 2 total this season.
This engine is using 12A sideplates and 13B peripheral ported GSL-SE rotor housings.
We use 9:7 rotors with MFR race bearings and the rotors are balanced and weight adjusted to 1 gram tolerance.
Crankshaft and balance weights are from a 13B rew and a special made flywheel with a Tilton 71/4 rally clutch ( all balanced to very low tolerance ).
Front and rear stationary gear is Rx8 that we made som changes on.
Apex seals are Ianetti ceramis 2mm 2pc seals and the other seals are Mazda oem parts.
A Mazda Motorsport high flow oilpump supports the lubrication together with a Mazda Motorsport race pressure reulator.
The intake manifold is a inhouse custom made alu intake.
Throttle body is a 51mm with 4X460cc injectors.
With this setup the engine starts to pull from 3500rpm to 10.000.
Rpm limit is set to 10300rpm but we shift gear at 9500rpm.
We dyno this engine to 320hk and 270Nm
I made another engine to a Norweigan rallycross driver ( Jan Gabrielsen ) with basically the same internal parts but this engine is based on a S4 N/A engine. On this engine we are using a 52mm Gene Berg carb and MSD ignition and we dont see any bigg differance in power and torque if we compare with Pirkkas engine. This engine finished in 3place in Norweigan hillclimbing for rallycross cars 2008 season.
If you have more question about PP engines for all application send me a email on rotaryperformance@glocalnet.net.
Regards Jörgen
Pirkka engine
(http://www.rotaryperformance.se/images/photoalbum/pimo2_1042_t2.jpg)
Gabrielsen engine
(http://www.rotaryperformance.se/images/photoalbum/img_0583_t2.jpg)
Quote from: RxRebels;561733Hi all!
Excuse my ignorance as I\'m new to the world of Rotary but I like what I see.:Thumbs-up I am looking at using an RX-8 for Motorsport use. The RX-8 is homologated and class rules mean I can use any normally aspirated (N/A)Mazda engine up to 2000cc/1.3 ....el.
I am about to buy an RX-8, is the engine in the RX-8 the best solution for getting about 300 bhp or should I be looking at buying a 13B engine from the RX-7. Does anyone know which engines you can get the most power from reliably and finally who are the best engine builders in Europe?
I am aware that a lot of MK2 Escorts run N/A 13B engines. Are these 13B engines form the RX-8\'s of RX-7\'s. Will I have to buy both an RX-8 and then the best engine seperately?
I would be very greatful for any comments.
Thanks a mill,
RxRebel.
Are you thinking of the Rallycross cup rules ?
If you are not allowed to use peripheral port.
BUT there are other engines the you can use with good power and more torqe on low rpm.
Hi Jorgen,
I have found you! This is good news.:). I have not started this project as yet because I feel it is important to find a rotary engine builder who understands Rallycross and Group A touring car regulations for the Rallycross Cup (New Division 2). I will send you an e-mail to see if we can make a powerful solution of the RX-8!
Regards,
RX Rebel
Quote from: RxRebels;569515Hi Jorgen,
I have found you! This is good news.:). I have not started this project as yet because I feel it is important to find a rotary engine builder who understands Rallycross and Group A touring car regulations for the Rallycross Cup (New Division 2). I will send you an e-mail to see if we can make a powerful solution of the RX-8!
Regards,
RX Rebel
I got your email and i will answer it after new year until then HAPPY NEW YEAR :cheers