Mazda Rotary Club

Hi guys, not that clued up on turbos so looking for a little advsie. I think my T78 has seen better days so looking to change. I like the sound of a T04Z, i think it would suit my requirements well, im not looking for Huuggee power, just something that boosts from low down and will give a nice top end hp figure. However, is there a modern quivalent of the T04Z? :driving

Hi Jon,

The T04Z is a very good "modern" ball bearing Turbo and your exactly right with what you expect it to give you ,

If your interested we can supply you a genuine one for £1150 plus Vat

hope this helps

Well there you go, i told you i didnt know much about turbos, i thought it was older technology, lol.  Whist once again maybe sounding daft, if i buy new, is there a limited warranty on failure? Is the T04Z happy with above 1 bar of boost?

TO4Z is a very good all round turbo and easily copes with over 1bar boost.  Speak with Blitzboy, he was running this turbo for a while.

Quote from: jetpilot;540079Well there you go, i told you i didnt know much about turbos, i thought it was older technology, lol.  Whist once again maybe sounding daft, if i buy new, is there a limited warranty on failure? Is the T04Z happy with above 1 bar of boost?

As none of us with Rotarys ever run anywhere near the boost capabilaties of any of these Turbo\'s yes it\'s O/K,

If it was a Piston engine then it may be expected to perform with many bar of boost pressure but as none of us with Rotarys ever run anywhere near the boost capabilaties of any of these Turbo\'s yes it\'s O/K,

As for warrenty,

As with anything, if it\'s the fault of the product in a short space of time then yes it\'s covered, however if it\'s due to a new Turbo not being primed with oil before initial start up and running dry or bits of engine hurtling through it, then no.

After fitting many Turbos to many things over the years 99% of the time I have found failure is normaly one or the other unless the thing has done like 150k plus and simply worn out ,

Thanks Clive, a great help as always. Once i have had the final verdict on mine i shall get in touch. Ideally i would prefer a second hand unit as i havent really got that to budget, but i do like the sound of buying new, comon euro millions..............

i hear the gt35r is good

Jetpilot as requested here is the link to my graph half way down the page of my old TO4Z

http://www.mazdarotaryclub.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5273&page=12

Thanks buddy, i presume that was flywheel hp, what was the rest of your set up like, fuelling etc?

hahahahah REAR WHEEL HORSEPOWER BABY!!!!!! yehhaaaaa 530 at the fly

it was using the Apexi BNR32 pump for the dyno run then I went twin bosh 044 afterwards, 550 primaries, 1680 secondaries

Quote from: colin777;540128i hear the gt35r is good

Tell me more :Laugh

Quote from: BlitzBoy;540136hahahahah REAR WHEEL HORSEPOWER BABY!!!!!! yehhaaaaa 530 at the fly

Thats more than im getting out my tractor turbo, lol. Running a very similar set up, what sort of porting did the engine have and are all t04z\'s the same? Sorry, thats the last question.

Quote from: Mazdarotaryparts;540120As none of us with Rotarys ever run anywhere near the boost capabilaties of any of these Turbo\'s yes it\'s O/K,

If it was a Piston engine then it may be expected to perform with many bar of boost pressure but as none of us with Rotarys ever run anywhere near the boost capabilaties of any of these Turbo\'s yes it\'s O/K,



:Snoring pussys

(http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l49/m1tch_2006/rotarywh6.jpg)

nuff said :)

Quote:Snoring pussys

:Talking1hahahahaha

Quote from: m1tch;540259(http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l49/m1tch_2006/rotarywh6.jpg)
 
nuff said :)

 
HAHAHAHAH, Hilariouse........do you blokes not have apex seals that dont brake in the UK?

Quote from: m1tch;540259(http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l49/m1tch_2006/rotarywh6.jpg)

nuff said :)

Excellent but I can see this going on and on


Be interesting to see hear about a Rotary that lived with 7 or 8 Bar of boost :Giggle

Im pretty sure there was and ausie drag rotor that used to boost around 40psi, around 2.75bar.
 
I doupt many engines would live after 7bar, 102psi...thats a little rediculouse fella. Besides there aint no turbo that could possible flow that much and if there was it would need a 4 rotor to spool it as no piston probably could.
 
Hey I could be wrong but Iv never seen anything like that.
 
I run my FD at 1.4bar with a GT3582R with loads of fuel and WI plus 3mm seals that dont brake.

Maybe you could let us know what seals you guys are using over there please?

Quote from: Dr-Rotor;540304Im pretty sure there was and ausie drag rotor that used to boost around 40psi, around 2.75bar.
 
I doupt many engines would live after 7bar, 102psi...thats a little rediculouse fella. Besides there aint no turbo that could possible flow that much and if there was it would need a 4 rotor to spool it as no piston probably could.
 
Hey I could be wrong but Iv never seen anything like that.
 
I run my FD at 1.4bar with a GT3582R with loads of fuel and WI plus 3mm seals that dont brake.

Yes ludicrous on a rotary but I have been told that some of the works WRC cars have been running 4, 5, and even 6 Bar, and some also use petrol injected straight into the Turbo to keep it spooled up, although as a works Ford technician he wouldn\'t tell me how they accomplished this !.

This would explain why in the past why we hear the wastegate making so much noise.

From memory back in the F1 Turbo 1500cc / 1500bhp days they ran more boost than this which resulted in the bores trying to wander around in the block and going funny shapes !.

Toleman which eventually turned into the present day Renault FI team after numerous buy outs had Brian Hart build their engines and they had so much trouble handling metal boost pressures that they actually built a 4 valve per cylinder mono-block engine which is a block hune for one piece of metal.

The reason for this was to build not only a structurally strong engine but also to loose the cylinder head gasket so they had no head gasket to blow under the extreme boost pressures required to get 1500hp on pump fuel out of a mere 1500cc engine size.

(They were only allowed 5 star  fuel from the country they were racing in at the time).

And your right I have also heard of 40psi being run throgh Rotarys :Viking

It seems that for non drag/race motors it seems that about 1.3 or 1.4 bar is ok then, I know that the engines lifespan will be reduced quite a bit if you boost at that level often, but as a daily drive/occasional drag runs 1.4 bar would be a good figure to build to? (my plan is to reduce the boost using a boost controller and only boost up to that kinda figure on drag runs) btw, what injectors are you running? im guessing uprated secondarys and perhaps terituary injectors? What boost could I safely do on 1000cc secondarys?

I have 2x intank walbro pumps, stock 550cc, 1680cc 2ndrys, Aeromotive FPR.
 
1 fuel pump for each set of injectors. I have a dual stage boost controller, I use 1bar for street and 1.4bar for track racing. The block has huge dowels through it and some apex seals that can be put in a vice and hit with a hammer right over to 90 deg before they brake, wear as a stock or after market 3mm seal will brake on the first hit.
 
There is no name for the seals I use as my engine builder has them custom made. I think the closest thing to them is the TPS seal that I have heard of that dont brake either.
 
If you have WI to keep charge temps down, prevent detonation and a fuel suppply that exeedes the turbo with a doweld block and my seals you can pretty much just max out your turbo. I dont see the point to this as the turbo would then have a shorter life, I wanted 500whp and got 588 so we stoped there. No need for more when  a 750whp GTR cant get much more than 3-4 car lengths aways from you on a track.
 
I love my car...its easy to drive in traffic and has enough mambo to keep me happy for years to come.

Ture story for you all from my engine builder.
 
Bridge ported, doweld, 3mm seals, same turbo as mine, heaps of fuel and a boost spike during tuning to 30psi or 2bar ran lean and was fine. Sorted the boost problem needed more fule, ended up with a bad batch of gas, motor detonated hard 4 times on the way back from the gas station.
 
Hmmm, sounds smooth still, checked compression, 1 rotor was low. Pulled it all apart and found that the tip of the rotor just outside the apex seal groove was dented in and stoped the seal from moving and allowing it to seal properly. Sent the rotor off for machining, put the same seals back in and away it went, no issues.
 
Im waiting for the PP engine to be tuned, they have been having some issues with injectors leaking and other things as you do. SO looking forward to that. It runs a GT3582R aswell and makes 8psi boost on idle....bloody insane. I think the turbo is going to max out on this puppy very early in the rev range and end up changing to something larger.

How much are those seals? how high are you able to rev to?

Quote from: m1tch;540361What boost could I safely do on 1000cc secondarys?

Well Id say 1.4 bar but that would probaly be about 98% duty cycle. You may need WI to help out though cos the more boost the more heat and the more chance of bang, keep that heat down and the power will stay consistant and be safer. Dont worry about duty cycle....basicaly its bad for track work but 98 or 100% for a drag run or a blast on the street isent going to do anything. The duty is the amount of time your injectors are open...so 100% means they are open all the time and get very hot and can fail, on a short blast it dosent matter, on the race track its a no no.
 
Mine is on 85% duty at 1.4bar. Due to WI keeping power constant and intake temps constant I can pull about 30 dyno runs and hit the exact same figure all the time...thats the beauty of WI.
 
Keep the air at the same density and the power will always stay the same. The more I thrash my car on a hot day the faster it goes cos the more the WI is cooling the air....without WI your car will not make the same power when the intake temps get hot.

Quote from: m1tch;540386How much are those seals? how high are you able to rev to?

I go to 8,000 all the time.....Im going to ask my engine builder if we can take it to 9,000 as there are some places on the local track where I need another 1,000 rpm so that I am not shifting as im entering this slight bend on a paticular section, its only slight but when you are about to enter the next bend at 200kph it dose make it a little hairy to hang on to.
 
I dont see why we cant rev to 9k, motor is plenty strong enough and the turbo just dosent stop pulling at all.
 
Im sure I can get a price for you and perhaps ship some over to you. Better yet just send us your block and have my man build you a motor like mine, worth the money if you have it. I sepent $15,000 NZ on my motor, thats about 5,550 UK quid.

Yeah im not going to be running about about 90% duty cycle as at about 92% its basically at 100% before it goes balistic and only injects 1/2 the flow leaning the engine lol

Im going to be running cryogenics on it and WI as well when im at that boost level, im aiming for about 400bhp, what boost level should I am for on that? Im guessing 1.2bar as your engine at 1.4 is running crazy numbers lol

With reving, if you lighten the rotors and perhaps a 2 peice shaft you can rev to 10 or more, but hey, I don\'t need to lol

Quote from: m1tch;540386How much are those seals? how high are you able to rev to?

PTS seals are over £600, ALS seals cheaper at around 300 both suppossed to bend\\warp as oppossed snapping or chipping, run them to around 9K safely.

But with good tuning stock Mazda seals do work see Dragons drag car two years ago reliable as f*&k.
but if u f*&k up the tuning they wil break and snap.

Mitch have you been in a big single FD yet?, you will find 400rwhp (UK figures not US) a beast on the road and strip, I run 11.80 at Pod with only 390 at the wheels

My mates FD over in Norway is running over 500 and his cosmo is running only 380ish lol I haven\'t been in a big turbo FD, but I just want to be able to have fun on the strip :) my stock FC running at 0.5bar is running a slow 14.8 :(

Im doing all the safety mods so im not just turning the boost up lol

a 13B with a T78,T04Z,GT35r, at 1 bar will get you 400 at the wheels (UK dyno) with mild porting on the engine easily
get yourself a ride in one, you will shocked how fast they are

Yeah im thinking of running either a GT35 or GT45, im going to go fairly large streetport, would I T04S make those figures at 1bar? Should I just aim for 1bar then?

GT45 would be too big  I feel for your goals, go GT35, A spec in America do kits for the the FC, manifold wastegate, downpipe,lines,turbo, coupled with a big street port will see you at 400rwhp at 1 BAR

I already have a SS T4 manifold for it (thats what you call forward planning) so do you recon a GT35 should suffice? Whats the difference between say a GT45 and a T04Z? which 1 spools better?

GT45 is massive only good for drag, GT35 has very good spool, TO4Z is just as good coz of ball bearing and helps spool but has a higher top end pontential

How much are we looking at for a T04Z? what size wastegate would you need for it?

try these guys i bought from
http://www.horsepowerinabox.com/HPIAB2/category12_3.htm
£823 before duty and postage, 45mm wastgate size as a minimum

Cool :) I will definatly bookmark that 1, ive been finding it hard to find sites that sell turbos lol I have had a look at the XSpower site with their copied turbos, I know that everyone thinks they are all rubbish and stuff, but they are running a super fast supra with all their bits lol

How much duty do you think there might be on that sort of item?

10 percent plus 17.5 percent so will work out at roughly 1063 including all taxes from using me calc lol

Dont understand how you fellas cant pull 500whp out of GT3582R\'s....must be those off the shelf manifolds everyone uses, All our stuff here is custom made for the highest flow possible and made from steam pipe not stainless.
 
I dont understand those compressor map charts either, according to them my Turbo is running way over the efficiancy range but still seems to increase the power the more boost you push through it. I guess thats why my engine builder recons those maps are bull**** cos every engine is differnet.
 
I asked someone before to tell me what ramp rate you guys use on your dyno dynamics but no one knows. We use 110.
 
Got a rotary drag event coming up soon....Ill try to lay down a time. I did a while back when we were in the early stages of tuneing my car, There was no WI and I was useing a plain 98 fuel, We had a miss at 15psi so I just ran 13psi, Old Eagel F1 tyres 255, full interior, full tank...wheel spin 1st, 2nd hooked up in 3rd & 4th clocked 187kph and 12.9 and wooped a 600hp GTR that ran a 12.4 how the fu*k that happen I have no idea.
 
I have a clip to proove it all too....I should realy get round to loading that up on here.
 
So this time i can try my 1bar setup and some old semi-slicks and see what happens. Not sure if i will do a 1.4bar run....I dont have money to a fix a blown diff, hahaha.

You have to remember each dyno is setup differently also and different ramp rates,here in the UK we have pessimistic readings, Im sure if we took our cars to US dynos we would record over 60 rwhp more.
The real test in power is the terminal MPH in the quarter mile, let us know what terminal speeds you get at the end of the quarter when you are running at your 1-1.4 BAR

also on my old setup T04Z at 1 BAR I ran a 12.0 dead at 120mph/193kph, that was only with with 400rwhp on road tyres

Quote from: BlitzBoy;540428also on my old setup T04Z at 1 BAR I ran a 12.0 dead at 120mph/193kph, that was only with with 400rwhp on road tyres

Well my first go was 187kph at 12.9...thats only 6kph short of yours, I guess my time sucked cos of the 1st & 2nd wheel spin.
 
At 1bar I have 470whp, sooo my times should be similar to yours now. Around 11.8 to 12 or quicker with the semi-slicks.
 
I will defenatly post my results and some clips when the time comes.

Well this is my drag run, using rather nasty hard wearing tyres, I now have some Eagle F1s on now :)



Thats about all you can get out of a stock set up I think

Quote from: Dr-Rotor;540423I did a while back when we were in the early stages of tuneing my car, There was no WI and I was useing a plain 98 fuel, We had a miss at 15psi so I just ran 13psi, Old Eagel F1 tyres 255, full interior, full tank...wheel spin 1st, 2nd hooked up in 3rd & 4th clocked 187kph and 12.9 and wooped a 600hp GTR that ran a 12.4 how the fu*k that happen I have no idea.

What trap speed did you see?

Just had a mechanic friend take a look at my T78 and he suggests its not as bad as i originally thought, so its coming off to be taken to a rebuilder to be assesed. Still like the thought of something a little smaller so if the T78 was rebuilt, what would it be worth? Any ideas, it does have a polsihed housing if that makes a difference.

Quote from: 20B_boy;540626What trap speed did you see?

187kph or 116mph was the trap speed.
 
Car is 1165kg with 1/4 tank and no rear seats. That run had the rear seats so plus 10kg...I weighed the seats when I took them out...1175kg plus me 80kg and the rest of the fuel at about 1kg per L...so 76L = 76kg - the 1/4 so add 57kg gives around 1312kg or 2892lb give or take a few lb\'s

where is the dyno air temp sensor positioned for your power runs?

Good point....I dont think we use the dynos Air sensor. I dont set it all up but all I have ever seen is the AFR sensor and boost sensor beeing used.
 
The only time I ever saw the air sensor it was being used to measure the temp of the air going into the filter.
 
We log the air temp on the datalogit from the cars stock location, in the plenum.
Alot of people say that sensor dose not work fast enough or some crap, I totaly disagree. Pump some WI in there & watch how fast it works, Iv seen drops from 30c to 13c in the few sec it takes to run out 2nd & 3rd gear. Id say thats plenty fast enough reaction time for a sensor.
 
What is the intent of your question if I may ask?

if the dyno temp sensor is run in one off the i/c pipes or in the engine bay, the dyno uses that reading to work out the max HP. we have the sensor measuring the room temp, we do this due to the fact that we were getting huge hp readings with sensor in the engine bay i/c pipes, as soon as we had it in the room temp we got sensible readings

Thats interesting.
 
Well as I said before we dont use it. Our dyno is accurate enough in comparison with other dynos in the area.
 
A customers car produced the same power on ours as it did on another dyno dynamics.
 
We also had a TT FD that came from a tune on a hub dyno to have a power run on ours. On the hub it recorded 220kw, on ours it was 205kw.
 
He asked us to retune it, we retuned it to 240kw and he said its a **** load faster than its ever been.
 
As said before its only numbers....trap speed seams to be a more respected indication of power.

Quote from: Dr-Rotor;541139As said before its only numbers....trap speed seams to be a more respected indication of power.

Yup. Even with crap tyres, bad launch etc, you should still still high terminal speeds if you really ahve the hp.

Quote from: Dr-Rotor;540897187kph or 116mph was the trap speed.
 
Car is 1165kg with 1/4 tank and no rear seats. That run had the rear seats so plus 10kg...I weighed the seats when I took them out...1175kg plus me 80kg and the rest of the fuel at about 1kg per L...so 76L = 76kg - the 1/4 so add 57kg gives around 1312kg or 2892lb give or take a few lb\'s

So if we go by your trap speed and weight using this calc link
http://www.tunercalcs.com/hp-from-quarter-mile-trap-speed.html
It works your hp to be 352 rwhp.

Punched in my figures for my old 12 second time I posted and its roughly accurate at 391rwhp only 9 bhp out

Yea not bad for a 13psi run with no WI and a different fuel. Looking forward to what its going to do now that its fully tuned.
 
Damn I keep forgeting to upload the clip.

so lets see a power graph:) sure blitz will put his up

Im sure I have one on here some where.

Here it is, the last run of the day just as the stock plugs started to brake up under high boost and the WI just keeping them in the game......tetete sillyness. I think we have a dyno day coming up soon, Ill throw it on again with the race plugs in this time and get a video clip of it.
 
(http://www.mazdarotaryclub.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=40144&d=1217645955)