Mazda Rotary Club

On my way to Re-Worx this morning to have new Tein Super Streets fitted plus new polybushes etc my engine decided to go bang (well more like a whimper) going down the dual carriageway engine up to temperature etc just over 4000 rpm a bigger puff of crap came out the back and the engine sounded odd. I suppose the fact that I was only about 2 miles from Re-Worx helped and I carefully drove there. A quick check and it looks like no compression on one rotor.
Now I have to explain to the wife that the money saved for the much needed bathroom replacement may be needed elsewhere I think I may be very unpopular in my household as my wife hates the car and refuses to go out in it anyway and this may just be the final stick which to beat me with!

Gutted for you mate.. especially as its so new.

any chance you could cancel the coilovers and bushes and spend the cash on the rebuild?

No I\'ve paid for them up front and I think the car needs the work done anyway. It just goes to show even after doing your homework (engine re-build about 5k miles ago) things can go wrong I have asked Re-Worx to start asap on getting the engine out and to give me the news.

Sorry to hear about your misfortune David.  I had a similar experience with mine (tip went after two months of ownership).

David

Who did the rebuild 5k ago?  They may provide warranty for it...  be worth checking!

Although it has only done 5K miles I think the engine rebuild may have been well over a year ago I\'m trying to establish the date but unfortunately I did not have any documentation for the rebuild but it was done by bnaellis for Bathurst the owner of the vehicle at the time of the work

Be worth checking as some engine builders do 24000 miles or 2 years which ever comes first, others offer 12000 miles or 24000 miles with 12 months.

Hopefully Brian may see this post and comment, I have tried to contact him but my membership status does not allow me to make contact.

Sorry to hear you\'ve been kicked in the nuts so soon into ownership, that sucks. Many times I\'ve asked myself why the hell I let the car put me through all the grief it does, then I get it fixed again and I remember why. Stick with it geezer, it\'ll all be worth it in the end. I spent my wedding anniversary at RS5 this year, and, no, the missus wasn\'t with me! P!ssed off doesn\'t even come close, don\'t worry about the bathroom!

Sorry to hear of this Dave,

Rebuild it then sell it if the wife is being funny :Nono!

Went down to Re-Worx this morning just a Chris was dismantling my engine. It would appear I have destroyed one rotor. Although this is only my second visit I am very impressed with the way these guys work I had a cup of tea and watched Chris at work trying not to get in his way. I can understand why people from all over the country bring their cars here and despite the fact that this will cost me a bob or two I will feel confident that after the work the car will run as it should.
It just goes to show that despite the car having done less than 5000 miles since the last re-build which was part of my decision to buy this one they can still potentially give a proud new owner a sharp kick in the fork!

have re-work diagnosed the problem? why did it happen? Obviously something went very wrong for it to just go like that?

Possible overboost or ignition failure seem to be most likely not too sure but despite driving very carefully (I was about 1-2 miles form them when it happened) As it was taken apart the damage was very obvious. I had noticed the odd small cloud of crap quite a few times when accelerating away quickly in say 3rd or 4th gear but put it down to new owner overcaution whilst getting used to the car as I had not given it too much stick until recently. On the motorway down to Re-Worx that day I did plant my foot down to overtake something and it was well over 4000 rpm when i did this that is when it just went POOF and sounded strange.

have to say again these cars go pop for the weirdest reasons and are about as fragile as you can get ..i have sold mine and regret ever buying it as mine was a fresh rebuild then went pop and had another rebuild that shall we say wasnt particularly satisfactory which then meant another strip down and build i quite honestly wish i had never bought a rx7 ime back in a scoob now and much happier about putting my foot down
in a 7 every time u boot it you think please dont break every time u start it u think please dont flood every time u fill it up u think please let me get 15mpg this time and after all that from the moment u rebuild it it will be like a ticking clock loosing compression.if u use it daily ur looking at another rebuild in as little as 3-4 years time with poss failure before then
the best thing to do with a 7 is see tnker 27 and get a proper engine put in it a nice v8 instant power/torque and 25+mpg at least

Impreza`s are hardly bomb proof, I had an Sti Type RA impreza for about 4 months, sold it to my mate and withing 3 weeks the engine spat its dummy out.

Cost him over 2k to get it sorted.

skylines and supras aside, most high end jap turbo`d cars have their engine troubles. Plus none are cheap to repair.

Yeah I know what your saying about the ticking time bomb with RX-7`s, but no engine lasts forever, especially when they get treated like these cars are supposed to be treated.

Quote from: rx7veilside;524873the best thing to do with a 7 is see tnker 27 and get a proper engine put in it a nice v8 instant power/torque and 25+mpg at least

All well and good if you have a spare £10k sitting in your bank:rolleyes:

I know of at least 3 scooby doos where the engines have gone pooooof!! All were pushing between 360-400 bhp and all three melted pistons, one at 150 mph!! besides they are becoming as common as BMW\'s... they\'re everywhere! Maybe it\'s just me but I hate following the crowd and rather be different thus I have a RX7 :Thumbsup!

I think we must understand the wee problems the rotaries have and most of us accept what these are. Skylines and all the other Jap cars of that class all have their problems that are not publicised as much as the rotary.  
The trouble with these cars is that the warrenty is really not worth the paper its written on.  I only do 4k a year, others do far less, no warrenty would match that unless you came into the normal family saloon car with a 60k warrenty.  It should make no difference if the engine has been in 1 or 5 years..

I hope you find the cause because it will happen again, if it is an ignition or boost problems then they have to route it out.  The bathroom can wait but you will need to keep your missus happy somehow !!

Had a similar thing happen to me with my first rx. Only done 600 miles in it since i got it and the engine decided it didn\'t want to play anymore. End up spending over 4k having things sorted out and was a nightmare saving and getting it sorted bu in the end it was worth it.
Stick with it mate. Its the pain that they cause us that makes us love them so much :D

Adam

Quote from: RobbieRX-7;524897All well and good if you have a spare £10k sitting in your bank:rolleyes:

well most rebuilds by the specialists will cost u up to 4k and if u bit the bullet before the inevitable engine pop u shd get at least 2k for gearbox/rad/turbos/etc so that covers 6k of the cost for the sake of 4 more ur there with all the looks of a 7 but reliable power and decent economy
most scoobs going poof will be the import ones or abused uk ones..look how many people sevens have gone poof while taking it easy
the import sti scoobs allways had a problem with mafs and one cylinder allways running hotter than the other 3 and this only came to light after people started mapping this issue out
dont get me wrong the 7 looks a fantastic car but its unreliable/thirsty/getting more expensive to rebuild due shortage of housings etc

All marques have their own issues,

Evo have crank walk issues, Skylines can have the issues of 4x4 power not working correctly, Scoobies do go "poof" alot and rotaries have heating issues,

the thing is you pick one you think you can live with and get on with it really, i have been lucky having 3 rx7\'s and no issues with any of them while i had them, others have issues straight away and sometimes it really is luck of the draw sadly :driving

In my quest to replace my very reliable Pajero Evolution which never gave a problem in 3 years of fast motoring I tried many cars and as you all say they all have issues if you delve into the owner group forums.
The car I nearly got was the Honda NSX (3 times the price I paid for the RX7) I drove an RX7 then the Honda then the RX7 and decided on the RX7 because the RX7 seemed to be alive and responsive (I still have an older Lotus and have had a Lotus since 1973 and like the light handling) In my decision I decided that because these Honda\'s have a potential rear suspension issue which cost about £3k to correct I thought to myself no that would be too expensive if I have to do that. Well here I am and after a bit of thought today and having gone through it with Chris at Re-Worx I have decided to keep with the RX7 and each time it goes pop uprate it perhaps a single turbo conversion next time.

Peformance cars break, issa fact of life. There\'s no way of squeezing mad horsepower and performance out of an engine, especially not a madly high-revving 1.3 rotary ol, without compromising reliability. Everyone slated RX-7s for being fragile, but where has the legend of Skyline invincibilty come from? In my experience, they\'re just as bad as Rexes; they break the 4 wheel drive, they melt the back cylinder, their turbo blades break up, the 4 wheel steering goes off walkabout on its own when you\'re in a dead straight line.....

Scoobies are a hopelessly compromised design, the only reason they even sound good is cos the engineers couldn\'t be bothered to even get fundamentals right like getting equal length exhaust tracts from each head......

Every car has drawbacks. Even Hondas break, but the Big H overcome this by hyping the myth of reliability they\'ve built up around the V-Tec, but just cos they\'ve never had to honour a warranty on a V-Tec system doesn\'t mean the rest of the cars don\'t go wrong. Probably just about the only reliable Jap "supercar" is the late model Supra, but then you have to drive something with the handling (and size!) of a greased blue whale, and you\'ll wish it\'d damn well break just so you can buy an interesting car instead! It\'s the performance car equivalent of painting the house Magnolia.....

There\'s nothing like an FD for bang for the buck, handling, looks, all the reasons we all bought one. If it breaks, you fix it, and if you\'re canny you\'ve still paid less than the bloke in his flabby Supra with his slush-box and opaque plastic headlights!

It\'s rubbish that David\'s went so soon in to the love affair, but glad to see you\'re treating it the right way, dude! Think of the money you\'ve saved not fixing NSX suspension, it can go towards that single tubby now :Thumbs-up

Sorry to hear your news David and glad that you are going to stick with it - it\'s always cheaper to go single when you have a rebuild, but, keep the wife happy somehow!

After reading this thread, IMO we want too much from an RX-7 and expect it to tick too many boxes maybe.

First of all, it must be the best looking of the mid 90\'s Japanese performance cars and can have very good power and can still hold it\'s own with any modern coupe. Secondly, if you plant your right foot on the floor a lot and have big power then the fuel consumption is going to be pants. Reliabilty is ok up to 60k but drops with power mods and who\'s carried them out.

So we want it to look good, which it does, we want it to handle well and have good brakes, which it does, some want power between say 350-450bhp which is easily achievable, we want limitless cosmetic and/or tuning mods, no problem, we want to take it to show and shine events but also take it on the track and run it up the strip and all for a purchase price of £4-£5k and pay tax on a 1300.

It seems to me that if you want to drive it hard on road or track or strip and mod the performance, keep some ££££\'s aside for a rebuild - a rotary rebuild must be the cheapest of the jap perfromance cars though.

If you want to go crazy with the aero and interior mods then maybe keep the power standard and stay away from a car with close to 60k mls on the clock. If you must go single keep the boost reasonable and sort out fuelling.

But if you want the RX-7 to do everything then be prepared for disapointment and deep pockets.

Just my 4ps worth

Keith :Typing

Quote from: rx7veilside;524873in a 7 every time u boot it you think please dont break every time u start it u think please dont flood every time u fill it up u think please let me get 15mpg this time and after all that from the moment u rebuild it it will be like a ticking clock loosing compression.if u use it daily ur looking at another rebuild in as little as 3-4 years time with poss failure before then
the best thing to do with a 7 is see tnker 27 and get a proper engine put in it a nice v8 instant power/torque and 25+mpg at least

what a load of sh1t :WaveBye

you were either unlucky, unforgiving, underfunded or uneducated :rollin

Quote from: Red and Single;524966what a load of sh1t :WaveBye

you were either unlucky, unforgiving, underfunded or uneducated :rollin

I agree ... well said Red:yes

I think he is just trying to make himself feel betta as he knows he never should\'ve sold his rex in first place:Nono!  If you hate taht car so much then why put your heart and soul into it making as stunning as his rex was...:Tongue1

Interesting thread.
I\'ve been looking at scoobys, silvias and FD\'s for sale recently and it really hit home how (regardless of the marque) you have to treat 2/3rds of the \'Jap Performance Turbo\' cars as a liability. The amount of potentially dodgy scoobys amazed me. A handful of clean/well modified examples, but thats it.

My friend\'s Sti actually blew up on the way home after he bought it! He got it rebuilt with forged internals etc, then a few thousand miles it blew again! (doesn\'t say much about the gazzilion scooby \'engine builders\' out there either, every man and his dog seems to claim to be able to rebuild scooby engines around here)

I often wonder if RX-7\'s would be anymore reliable if they really did have a 2.6l Turbocharged V6 in.        (:2eek)
People would still tune the hell out of them and blow them up.. There\'d probably be more dodgy back-street \'RX-7 V6 Specialists\' ready to build you a crap engine.
The fact that \'the theory behind the engine\' is different doesn\'t really matter, because, as an engine it still uses a fuel pump, it still uses coil packs, Spark plugs, ECU, etc, and 9/10 times when they go boom it\'s because of components that AREN\'T rotary specific.
It\'s easy to group rotaries together because they\'re different, but, like piston engines (that also differ), they all need the right mixture of fuel, air and spark, adequate cooling and correct lubrication, and that\'s what should be focused on. That\'s what causes any engine to fail, regardless of whether its got an Apex Seal or a Piston Ring, a Headgasket or a Water Seal.

 :yes   :wiggle    :yes

:guinness + :Typing   =   :Thumbsup! FTW

Also been thinking about how I feel bad for engine builders recently. When an engine is under warrentee and it goes pop due to an ignition or fuel pump failure, it\'s then through no fault of the builder -who could have basically blueprinted the engine to the best standard ever- he\'s still going to have to loose out/redo ££££\'s worth of work.

I guess you cant expect a builder to check everything, the labour would be huge! but then who\'s responsibility is it to make sure the fuel pump is working right? :xconfused

I do hope that my \'tale of woe\' does not put off any potential new owners who may be reading this thread (I browsed this web site for ages before deciding to buy an RX7) because it is just a case of really bad luck and the car is in my opinion one of the best looking, handling performance cars I have owned and believe me I have owned a lot.
Just to put running costs into some sort of perspective I owned one of the first BMW M5\'s in 1984 and somewhere I have a service invoice dated early 85 for £400 plus VAT from the main agent.

Well maybe then I would pay a few hundred pounds more to have the tuner check the \'add on bits\' to ensure they are satisfactory and matched to the work done.  When my engine in the FD got rebuilt by Jimmy\'s he would not issue a warrenty unless I had a Apexi ECU fitted because of the mods already done to the car.  They might in the course of checking these components that some might need replacing........hey.....it might be the reason why it blew in the 1st place!!!

I think that if you are reading this thread then we all know about the rotaries and I expect many of us have been through the rebuild bit many times before..... but........  we are still all here.  Goes to show the passion and understanding we have for the cars.

To be honest I thought the car was all sorted and if you look the advert for it is still in the for sale section under 1997 Mazda RX7 Type RB Bathurst X Dyno 380bhp you can see by the spec it appeared to be fine.

I am on my second enging in 12mths and my biggest regret was not paying more and putting a new v8 in. I got the rebuild for free and with a 2 year warrantee on it.

Quote from: David Wiltshire;525025To be honest I thought the car was all sorted and if you look the advert for it is still in the for sale section under 1997 Mazda RX7 Type RB Bathurst X Dyno 380bhp you can see by the spec it appeared to be fine.

The for sale thread does look good, its a beautiful car, but I think what Pete and I were saying is that component failure may be to blame. If the advert said \'New Walbro fuel pump 6000miles ago\' (with documentation) then I guess you could pretty much rule that out. As it happens there isn\'t any mention of fuel pumps, injectors, etc. I think do like Pete said and get Geoff to do some tests and try establish the cause, will save you sooo much hassle in the long run. Plus give you an idea of future upgrades or potential problems (if they spot any).

Yes I agree with your suggestions and steps are already being taken to do this. I run several vehicles and have always maintained all of them to tip top condition and the learning curve owning an RX7 although steep has been crow-barred into my cranium.

Quote from: Red and Single;524966what a load of sh1t :WaveBye

you were either unlucky, unforgiving, underfunded or uneducated :rollin

:Thumbs-up:Thumbs-up:Thumbs-up:Thumbs-up Good Post!

in a nutshell :Giggle..... spot on.

Get the boys to port it and let her fly.................:InLove

Quote from: Red and Single;524966what a load of sh1t :WaveBye

you were either unlucky, unforgiving, underfunded or uneducated :rollin

unlucky-debateable
unforgiving-def not
underfunded-hardly
uneducated-nope been around perf cars for 30yrs

Can you really put a V8 in the RX without adding too much weight and upsetting its fine balance?
Not that I would consider such a move as the RX is known as a rotary although I remember people putting a V4 in the RO80 many years ago.

Quote from: Warthog;525077Get the boys to port it and let her fly.................:InLove

bnaellis did street port when he re-built it

Quote from: David Wiltshire;525120Can you really put a V8 in the RX without adding too much weight and upsetting its fine balance?
Not that I would consider such a move as the RX is known as a rotary although I remember people putting a V4 in the RO80 many years ago.

Consider it or not, yes you can:driving

Quote from: Spartacus;525127Consider it or not, yes you can:driving

What make is it and do you have to change the gearbox?

tinker 27 does a superb conversion and for others ie spartacus did their own weight stays same balance stays same in the states its very popular cos people get fed up with the rotary going pop
u get all the good looks and handling of 7 with the good economy effortless torque instant grunt excellent mpg and a pretty much bullet proof easy 400hp just remember not to redline them v8s dont like the revs but then again theyre so fast they dont need them

Quote from: David Wiltshire;525121bnaellis did street port when he re-built it

Then ask the boys to do the same Extended Street Port as they did in my lump.................lots more drivable power....:mmmm

The next question is... How much? Realistically speaking, 2nd hand engine and gearbox..
£4, 6, maybe £10k?

tinker 27 does a drive in drive out for around 10k sell all ur bits 4k maybe leaves 6k max so only about 50% on top off a rotary rebuild

Quote from: rx7veilside;525148tinker 27 does a superb conversion and for others ie spartacus did their own weight stays same balance stays same in the states its very popular cos people get fed up with the rotary going pop
u get all the good looks and handling of 7 with the good economy effortless torque instant grunt excellent mpg and a pretty much bullet proof easy 400hp just remember not to redline them v8s dont like the revs but then again theyre so fast they dont need them

Any change to the bonnet line? does the conversion wipe out the air-con?
 
Quite obviously I will have Re-Worx do the engine this time but if it goes again within the time frame which mine has I will seriously consider the V8. This is against my inclinations for keeping things how they were designed but if this conversion does not upset the balance of the car and is not the same type of V8 lump that Rover, TVR used then in the cold light of day quite simply the costs could stackup in favour of this type of conversion.

Mine blow an oil seal and turbo seals after only 150 miles of motorway driving.
Import company just washed their hands of it. Saying it was my fault.

Anyway Carl sorted it and all is well 7000 miles later.

Hope your back on the road soon. But you will have to the 1000 miles of slow driving :Grrr

Yes I can easily take care of the engine once re-built I do have a great deal of mechanical sympathy with engines (I still have generators and other engine driven equipment I use for my business which were bought in the early 80\'s and still run well today due to my care of oil changes etc) at this moment in time I am still undecided regarding the rotary engines record to date.

The V8 conversion that Tinker does is very good,it is based on the modern LS series of V8 engines,such as in the latest Corvette.I have been out in his own personal car and was very impressed.
That having been said if the right parts are used the rotary is also very good,and i think that is the key,using the right parts in the build for the end use,so if the car is running more power than stock then certain parts need to be uprated to cope.That makes sense really because you are asking the engine to do over and above it\'s normal usage.
Some people have said things such as Mazda spent Millions developing this part or that part,so they must be good and why change them,but Mazda don\'t use stock parts for racing where more is expected of the engines,and stock parts were developed for stock use and longevity at a price that pleases the bean counters.
Regards
Carl

Quote from: Carl;525190The V8 conversion that Tinker does is very good,it is based on the modern LS series of V8 engines,such as in the latest Corvette.I have been out in his own personal car and was very impressed.
That having been said if the right parts are used the rotary is also very good,and i think that is the key,using the right parts in the build for the end use,so if the car is running more power than stock then certain parts need to be uprated to cope.That makes sense really because you are asking the engine to do over and above it\'s normal usage.
Some people have said things such as Mazda spent Millions developing this part or that part,so they must be good and why change them,but Mazda don\'t use stock parts for racing where more is expected of the engines,and stock parts were developed for stock use and longevity at a price that pleases the bean counters.
Regards
Carl

Yes you are right, and I thought the car was properly sorted. I have had a look at the tinker27 posts/threads and I can see this is a bit of a contentious issue so I am absolutely convinced that once the work has been done by Re-Worx and I am sure it will be done to the highest standard and if it will last till the new Skyline is old enough for me to afford then fine, if not I will be giving tinker27 a call without any doubt.

Quote from: David Wiltshire;525182Any change to the bonnet line? does the conversion wipe out the air-con?
 
Quite obviously I will have Re-Worx do the engine this time but if it goes again within the time frame which mine has I will seriously consider the V8. This is against my inclinations for keeping things how they were designed but if this conversion does not upset the balance of the car and is not the same type of V8 lump that Rover, TVR used then in the cold light of day quite simply the costs could stackup in favour of this type of conversion.

The bonnet line stays the same if you go for the Tinker conversion and most of the US based conversion kits. Have a look on Ebay.com for engine/gearbox’s to give you an idea. There is one like mine a 2004 GTO LS1 (350bhp/365 ft lbs) going for $5500. If you want to spend a bit more you can get a LS2 (400bhp/400 ft lbs) for around $1500 more. Included in those prices are engine, gearbox, ecu, loom etc etc....To get the package here would be around £1000 for shipping /tax\'s etc.

As for the aircon, I had planned to keep it and it is possible but as you can imagine there isn’t much room in the engine bay and the only part that would be tricky is getting the hoses made and running them in. Many have kept it in the US but I would think their hose runs would be easier on a LHD.

Lots to think about. Just to give you an idea I think there are around 5-6 LSX fd’s up and running in the UK at the moment with another few on the way by the sounds of things.
Here is a link to my conversion thread which shows the basic concept of doing it DIY. http://www.mazdarotaryclub.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37480&highlight=hinson

Well done an excellent bit of work and a well documented write up. It may sound picky but due to being the outdoor type I cant have a car without air-con I land up in a (you don\'t want to know) so would have to challenge someones engineering expertise to solve that little problem.

Quote from: David Wiltshire;525202Well done an excellent bit of work and a well documented write up. It may sound picky but due to being the outdoor type I cant have a car without air-con I land up in a (you don\'t want to know) so would have to challenge someones engineering expertise to solve that little problem.

Thanks David, re the aircon It\'s doable but I would guess it may not look pretty.

Got the car back yesterday and the first thing noticable was the way it handled it was just so much more precise despite the fact I am having to take it easy for the next 250 miles the new coilovers and polybush replacement really have made a difference. Its nice to get back in the car and use it despite the restrictions on revving it too high. At this moment in time I am very pleased with the rotary engine but I am going to start saving and buying V8 bits so that in about 18 months time I should have everything required. Hinsons do a carbon fibre propshaft for an extra $400 in the conversion kit which sounds pretty cool.

The V8 conversion adds about 100kg in weight (so said Tinker to me), and changes the weight distribution (you cannot get the V8 as low or as far back as the rotary, its why our rotary cars handle so well). The RX-7 is a true \'front mid-engined\' car; the entire engine behind the front axle. The V8 conversion is not.
 
As such, it would not be possible for the V8 car to handle as well as a rotary powered car. You would also have issues getting suspension to work well; anything you buy will be sprung and valved for a car that has 100kgs less weight over the front axle. You\'d have to get something custom sprung and damped. Even still, the extra weight and where the extra weight is positioned means the rotary will have the edge in handling.
 
I have yet to see a V8 powered car being driven hard on track. Tinker\'s car is a daily driver and the standard of work is fantastic, but i remain to be convinced that the V8 would make as good a track and race car as the rotary.
 
I\'d like to try one, and it would be a possibility if my engine let go. But i wouldn\'t go ahead until i\'d put one round a track.
 
The rotary engine is why the RX-7 is special; weight and handling balance mean so much.
 
Andy

I take your point about a potential grey area regarding track use etc. my RX is only for day to day road use and I have no desire at all to track day it. So far I have only done track days like at Thruxton which in my opinion appeals because its someone else\'s car you are hiring to thrash on a track as flat out as you can do and if it blows up tough.
I am still asking questions regarding this conversion as they come up, and your point has raised one I will try to find out if anyone has had a V8 corner weighted to see how much the balance from standard is.

Quote from: Papercup;526843The V8 conversion adds about 100kg in weight (so said Tinker to me), and changes the weight distribution (you cannot get the V8 as low or as far back as the rotary, its why our rotary cars handle so well). The RX-7 is a true \'front mid-engined\' car; the entire engine behind the front axle. The V8 conversion is not.
 
As such, it would not be possible for the V8 car to handle as well as a rotary powered car. You would also have issues getting suspension to work well; anything you buy will be sprung and valved for a car that has 100kgs less weight over the front axle. You\'d have to get something custom sprung and damped. Even still, the extra weight and where the extra weight is positioned means the rotary will have the edge in handling.
 
I have yet to see a V8 powered car being driven hard on track. Tinker\'s car is a daily driver and the standard of work is fantastic, but i remain to be convinced that the V8 would make as good a track and race car as the rotary.
 
I\'d like to try one, and it would be a possibility if my engine let go. But i wouldn\'t go ahead until i\'d put one round a track.
 
The rotary engine is why the RX-7 is special; weight and handling balance mean so much.
 
Andy

how about craig winstanleys time attack car?

Quote from: Jit;526860how about craig winstanleys time attack car?

true, built by Tinker using his old engine. I\'d like to try it. I\'d like to know how much the extra weight compromises the car....

the v8 conversion as far as i know has a better weight distribution as the gearbox is heavier so pushes the weight low down in the middle of the car....suppose craig (tinker) can answer that....

Quote from: bin liner;526870the v8 conversion as far as i know has a better weight distribution as the gearbox is heavier so pushes the weight low down in the middle of the car....suppose craig (tinker) can answer that....

its going to have to be a very heavy gearbox to counteract the extra weight of the engine, which is further forward :3Confused
 
i remain to be convinced with that argument!
 
i\'ds like to see proper corner weighting of one of these V8 cars to show:
 
1. how much extra weight there is
2. where the weight is

Can I suggest you look at the American V8RX7 forum there are loads of threads there about this and they are facts by people who have been doing this for a while. I have just spent an hour or two reading them and I am now more than convinced that this is the way I will eventually go.

\'the grass is always greener on the other side\'
 
;)

Well the post I read was by dcrosby.
LF774
RF730
RR802
LR758
3064 lbs total with 3/4 tank and 150lbs driver
49.1% front 50.9% rear
I do hope he doesn\'t mind me quoting these figures
It appears to have been done by a proper established Alignment Centre

by my calculations, removing the driver, that makes the car over 1300kgs
 
as i\'ve said.....for a road car maybe the extra doesn\'t matter but i remain to be convinced it will handle as well as a rotary.

Quote from: Papercup;526843The V8 conversion adds about 100kg in weight (so said Tinker to me), and changes the weight distribution (you cannot get the V8 as low or as far back as the rotary, its why our rotary cars handle so well). The RX-7 is a true \'front mid-engined\' car; the entire engine behind the front axle. The V8 conversion is not.
 
As such, it would not be possible for the V8 car to handle as well as a rotary powered car. You would also have issues getting suspension to work well; anything you buy will be sprung and valved for a car that has 100kgs less weight over the front axle. You\'d have to get something custom sprung and damped. Even still, the extra weight and where the extra weight is positioned means the rotary will have the edge in handling.
 
I have yet to see a V8 powered car being driven hard on track. Tinker\'s car is a daily driver and the standard of work is fantastic, but i remain to be convinced that the V8 would make as good a track and race car as the rotary.
 
I\'d like to try one, and it would be a possibility if my engine let go. But i wouldn\'t go ahead until i\'d put one round a track.
 
The rotary engine is why the RX-7 is special; weight and handling balance mean so much.
 
Andy

I would agree with you up to a point, as mentioned look at craigs time attack car, is winning nearly every n/a race.. It\'s combination that works on the track, whifbitz with a rotary didnt do quite so well..

Quote from: BenLewisMav;526890I would agree with you up to a point, as mentioned look at craigs time attack car, is winning nearly every n/a race.. It\'s combination that works on the track, whifbitz with a rotary didnt do quite so well..

different class, surely?
 
What else is in the N/A class then?

blah blah blah ..
regardless if you get an engine built by a good engine builder and tuned by a good tuner with the CORRECT AND NECESSARY PARTS the rotary will rip a v8 ..
and please don\'t use the time attack series as a comparison ...
the rx7 is known be one of the best track cars available for a reason .. taking the rotary out of it is ripping its heart out .. all you rotory haters who have had bad experiences need to get in contact with someone who can build an engine right and make sure you get the NECESSARY parts to keep the engine reliable .. your own incompetencies should not put the rotary down and call it unrealiable ...
and no this is not aimed at anyone specifically

lets me honest here...there are very few people who push there cars to the limit when they drive...maybe they\'ll plant there foot in a straight line but not many people are confident enough to do the same on the twisy bits..most therefore prefer good straight line speed...stick with the rotary if u want the extra balance round the bends, most people want reliabilty which the rotary certainly isn\'t when specced up...if mine blows up then theres only one way forward...v8..i\'m happy to sacrifice a bit of balance for reliabilty...anyway v8\'s are great for going up the road sideways....

Quote from: BenLewisMav;526890I would agree with you up to a point, as mentioned look at craigs time attack car, is winning nearly every n/a race.. It\'s combination that works on the track, whifbitz with a rotary didnt do quite so well..

oh please don\'t use that crap comparison .. drivers are more important than the cars .. put a good driver in a **** car he can make it look good ..
whifbitz is in a class with the big tuners who just put a new engine in every race and get new parts for cheap .. there is a big difference ..
i am telling you if an ex race driver was put in whifbitzs car that thing would demolish everything in its view ..
touge time attack was won by the rx7 ahead of the gtrs and the scoobys and the evos ...
i think that is a better place for comparison don\'t you agree ? similar drivers with similar capabilties

Quote from: bin liner;526896most people want reliabilty which the rotary certainly isn\'t when specced up...

this is not true.
 
If they are built right they can be reliable, mine\'s been fine and i track and race it and have done for over a year and a half. I\'m winning stuff as well. Max and are racing in the Nippon series, Atomic Rex races his. Ask them whether reliability is an issue.
 
People buy ****ed RX-7s off each other and blame the engines when they let go immediately. Then they get it rebuilt cheaply by \'bloke down the road\' and whine some more when it pops again.
 
I am genuinely interested in how a V8 car handles, and whether the undeniable extra weight ruins the balance of one of the best track cars available. I suspect it makes a very different car, one that may not feel like an RX-7 any more, though it will still be very good in many ways. Hopefully I\'ll catch up with Craig soon at a trackday and have a go in his; he has offered.
 
Oh, and the simplistic internet answer of \'throw a V8 in it and life will be happy for ever\' is insulting. All custom built cars have issues.
 
Andy

Quote from: Papercup;526901this is not true.
 
If they are built right they can be reliable, mine\'s been fine and i track and race it and have done for over a year and a half. I\'m winning stuff as well. Max and are racing in the Nippon series, Atomic Rex races his. Ask them whether reliability is an issue.
 
People buy ****ed RX-7s off each other and blame the engines when they let go immediately. Then they get it rebuilt cheaply by \'bloke down the road\' and whine some more when it pops again.
 
I am genuinely interested in how a V8 car handles, and whether the undeniable extra weight ruins the balance of one of the best track cars available. I suspect it makes a very different car, one that may not feel like an RX-7 any more, though it will still be very good in many ways. Hopefully I\'ll catch up with Craig soon at a trackday and have a go in his; he has offered.
 
Oh, and the simplistic internet answer of \'throw a V8 in it and life will be happy for ever\' is insulting. All custom built cars have issues.
 
Andy

whatever floats your boat...why your getting so hot under the collar i dont know...i know of 4 cars right now that have been built by recognised tuners and engine builder that have gone belly up in under 8k within 12 months, with the right parts used...You cant blame people for wanting more reilabilty...i understand some rotaries are proving themselves....but at 60k or so u are gonna need a rebuild.. i have still got my t78 powered rx rebuilt from from the ground up using all new parts that was built by me and my mate still going strong, if it blows i\'ll sell the engine bits and turbo and try V8...  handling wise i have a porsche boxster S, not the quickest but drives suberb, and now an abt Audi TT soon to be on the road having just completed a custom hybrid conversion...i understand all custom cars have issues i have built a couple but the debate of the rotary being reliable/unreliable is one that cant be won...its like marmite....u love it or you hate it....me, im on the fence....:)

Quote from: bin liner;526909whatever floats your boat...why your getting so hot under the collar i dont know...i know of 4 cars right now that have been built by recognised tuners and engine builder that have gone belly up in under 8k within 12 months, with the right parts used...You cant blame people for wanting more reilabilty...i understand some rotaries are proving themselves....but at 60k or so u are gonna need a rebuild.. i have still got my t78 powered rx rebuilt from from the ground up using all new parts that was built by me and my mate still going strong, if it blows i\'ll sell the engine bits and turbo and try V8... handling wise i have a porsche boxster S, not the quickest but drives suberb, and now an abt Audi TT soon to be on the road having just completed a custom hybrid conversion...i understand all custom cars have issues i have built a couple but the debate of the rotary being reliable/unreliable is one that cant be won...its like marmite....u love it or you hate it....me, im on the fence....:)

Not sure where i am getting hot under the collar? Feel free to point it out.

Quote from: Rzla;526898oh please don\'t use that crap comparison .. drivers are more important than the cars .. put a good driver in a **** car he can make it look good ..
whifbitz is in a class with the big tuners who just put a new engine in every race and get new parts for cheap .. there is a big difference ..
i am telling you if an ex race driver was put in whifbitzs car that thing would demolish everything in its view ..
touge time attack was won by the rx7 ahead of the gtrs and the scoobys and the evos ...
i think that is a better place for comparison don\'t you agree ? similar drivers with similar capabilties

Yeah thats a fair comparison (touge)..  Please don\'t misunderstand, I\'m rotary through and through, I was just trying to point out that it is a good combination that has a lot of potential.
Of course you only have to look at AtomixRex\' car to see what a well built rotary powered beast is capable. I really don\'t want this to turn into another V8 or rotary thread.

Most of these conversions are in the US and from what I’ve read the owners of these cars, many of whom have raced them both before and after the conversion state that they are unable to feel a difference in handling. Maybe we should listen to those with experience of racing the FD before and after the conversion as I would have thought that they are the only people whose opinions really count?

As for the weight issue, how many of our cars have not been modified in any way affecting the weight?
There are many of these conversions where the car comes out lighter than the original.
To get a true comparison would be almost impossible.

Quote from: BenLewisMav;526890I would agree with you up to a point, as mentioned look at craigs time attack car, is winning nearly every n/a race.. It\'s combination that works on the track, whifbitz with a rotary didnt do quite so well..

Craig\'s car is in a completely different class in terms of performance... The Pro class is where all the 800hp + Evo\'s, Scoobys, Skylines etc are so it\'s a heck of a lot more difficult to win, especially when racing against professional race drivers. Then you look at lap times and top speeds of the Whifbitz FD and Craig\'s... Whifbitz has had lap times 3-4 secs quicker and top speed readouts upto 10 mph quicker and both cars are pushing out similar power except the V8 which is putting out more torque... seems to me the Rotary can handle itself good enough!

Quote from: Spartacus;526931Most of these conversions are in the US and from what I’ve read the owners of these cars, many of whom have raced them both before and after the conversion state that they are unable to feel a difference in handling. Maybe we should listen to those with experience of racing the FD before and after the conversion as I would have thought that they are the only people whose opinions really count?
 
As for the weight issue, how many of our cars have not been modified in any way affecting the weight?
There are many of these conversions where the car comes out lighter than the original.
To get a true comparison would be almost impossible.  

1. Bear in mind human nature. The website is \'V8RX7\' or whatever. I wouldn\'t expect for a moment for most of them to even admit they drive differently, even if they did. Its why i said to Mr Wiltshire above, \'the grass is always greener\'. When we find the website \'V8s are rubbish.com\' we\'ll find a bunch of people who say the opposite thing. Of course they drive differently, they must, because there is more weight. They must drive differently and the fact that people in the States say they drive the same is the best indicator of human nature; they are being economical with the truth because they are happy with their car. Understandable, but not all that helpful to me and Mr Wiltshire because i genuinely want to know the differences. I know there must be differences and when people say there aren\'t i just raise my eyes and go ask someone else.
 
2. We know they weigh more. Tinker says so. I\'m surprised you didn\'t weigh your car before and after. You certainly swapped the engine and must have realised that the engine crane looked a little more strained with a great big V8 block and gearbox on it, rather than the ickle rotary. With the same car, before and after, the weight goes up. It must. You\'d have to be daft to look at the rotary engine next to the LS-series and think they weight the same, alloy block or not.
 
I am interested in how much it goes up, and what it affects. I would still consider a V8 conversion, but would need to drive one first. As i\'ve said, i would expect it to make a different car, that doesn\'t really feel quite like an RX-7 any more, but more like a hybrid of two cars. The power delivery, all that torque and no need to rev high, it must feel very different. These are the experiences i want to hear about.
 
I\'ve stood with Tinker and discussed the conversion in detail at the last two Fighting Torque events, so I have some idea. I\'d go to him in a second to have it done. But i\'d be scared to lose the character of my car.
 
I\'d genuinely like to hear what you think. You\'ve driven both. I expect you are happy with the car, but....really....whats it really like? Don\'t say \'its the same\'! :)
 
We can all talk about this without getting narky, it turning into \'rotary vs V8\' thing, and getting locked. Its a pity, the mods here tend to stamp on the V8 discussions, or certainly used to.
 
Andy

Can I just make one thing quite clear as I have stated I am not pro or anti rotary. I have made a decision regarding what will happen next if my rotary fails I will cut my losses and go for the V8 conversion. I have no interest in whether the rotary can trounce the V8, what I want is a conversion that will replicate the type of thrill the rotary gives me without that nagging feeling that it may blow, quite obvously the V8 is unstressed and when put in such a light car the low end grunt I am sure will make for some interesting driving.
I am all for constructive debate thats how we all learn things, so please if we can avoid extreme pro and anti thrusting getting in the way of what I hope is an open considered debate about the pro and cons of this type of conversion.
I also wonder if it might be better to transfer this topic to a different heading as my original thread heading is a bit Sun newspaper like thinking about it

Quote from: David Wiltshire;526944Can I just make one thing quite clear as I have stated I am not pro or anti rotary. I have made a decision regarding what will happen next if my rotary fails I will cut my losses and go for the V8 conversion. I have no interest in whether the rotary can trounce the V8, what I want is a conversion that will replicate the type of thrill the rotary gives me without that nagging feeling that it may blow, quite obvously the V8 is unstressed and when put in such a light car the low end grunt I am sure will make for some interesting driving.
I am all for constructive debate thats how we all learn things, so please if we can avoid extreme pro and anti thrusting getting in the way of what I hope is an open considered debate about the pro and cons of this type of conversion.

I agree :)
 
I am also trying to \'keep it clean\' and ask others to do the same !
 
We can have a V8 discussion without arguments!
 
I am concentrating more on the performance/track/race aspect as it is more relevant to me. But the whole thing interests me.
 
My race car is a rotary powered RX-7 :)
 
But day to day i drive a 4.4 V8 BMW (540i) and LOVE the engine in it :D
 
(I use the BMW to pull the trailer with the Rex on it!)
 
Andy

I can split the thread if you want?

:wave

Got a title in mind for the new thread?

Quote from: Papercup;5269431. Bear in mind human nature. The website is \'V8RX7\' or whatever. I wouldn\'t expect for a moment for most of them to even admit they drive differently, even if they did. Its why i said to Mr Wiltshire above, \'the grass is always greener\'. When we find the website \'V8s are rubbish.com\' we\'ll find a bunch of people who say the opposite thing. Of course they drive differently, they must, because there is more weight. They must drive differently and the fact that people in the States say they drive the same is the best indicator of human nature; they are being economical with the truth because they are happy with their car. Understandable, but not all that helpful to me and Mr Wiltshire because i genuinely want to know the differences. I know there must be differences and when people say there aren\'t i just raise my eyes and go ask someone else.
 
2. We know they weigh more. Tinker says so. I\'m surprised you didn\'t weigh your car before and after. You certainly swapped the engine and must have realised that the engine crane looked a little more strained with a great big V8 block and gearbox on it, rather than the ickle rotary. With the same car, before and after, the weight goes up. It must. You\'d have to be daft to look at the rotary engine next to the LS-series and think they weight the same, alloy block or not.
 
I am interested in how much it goes up, and what it affects. I would still consider a V8 conversion, but would need to drive one first. As i\'ve said, i would expect it to make a different car, that doesn\'t really feel quite like an RX-7 any more, but more like a hybrid of two cars. The power delivery, all that torque and no need to rev high, it must feel very different. These are the experiences i want to hear about.
 
I\'ve stood with Tinker and discussed the conversion in detail at the last two Fighting Torque events, so I have some idea. I\'d go to him in a second to have it done. But i\'d be scared to lose the character of my car.
 
I\'d genuinely like to hear what you think. You\'ve driven both. I expect you are happy with the car, but....really....whats it really like? Don\'t say \'its the same\'! :)
 
We can all talk about this without getting narky, it turning into \'rotary vs V8\' thing, and getting locked. Its a pity, the mods here tend to stamp on the V8 discussions, or certainly used to.
 
Andy

The reason I have quoted the US site is that they are in a position of having experienced both non converted and converted from a racing point of view. I don’t see why they would be lying and I’ve never heard of any of them swapping back to rotary. My point is if you want to find out what the differences are they are the people to tell you, not just people with opinions but with no experience. Maybe the lack of the site V8s are rubbish.com should tell you something?

"I know there must be differences and when people say there aren\'t I just raise my eyes and go ask someone else."

How many people are you going to ask before you believe? them or are you waiting for some one to say the handling is ruined and then say I told you so?


From what I have read there is meant to be around a 40lb difference "IF" all things were equal. But that is a big if as they are never equal. And those 40lbs isn’t on the nose of the car its spread.
There is a school of thought that the LS1 actually has a better centre of gravity than the rotary as most of the weight is low down compared to the rotary. How true this is I don’t know but it is worth thinking about.

I\'m sorry I didn’t manage to weigh mine before and after but I\'m quite happy to weigh it now if you can find a car the same spec as mine to compare it with. Oh and no the crane didn’t seem to be straining any more lol. Yes the LS engines are great big things but they are alloy and plastic with at least 5.7 litres of air in them.

Oh I have got the weights of the rotary and gearbox which I can find if you want?

Yes I’ve driven them before and after but I\'m sorry to say that my driving skills were not up to a F1 driver so yes/no I cant tell any difference.

In the end of the day if you want to do it you will find good enough reason s to do so and if you don’t you will also find reasons not to.

In reply to Brett
 
Its just that my initial thread title is a bit inflammatory and may invite extremist views or am i being a bit limp wristed about it?

Quote from: Spartacus;526952The reason I have quoted the US site is that they are in a position of having experienced both non converted and converted from a racing point of view. I don’t see why they would be lying and I’ve never heard of any of them swapping back to rotary. My point is if you want to find out what the differences are they are the people to tell you, not just people with opinions but with no experience. Maybe the lack of the site V8s are rubbish.com should tell you something?
 
"I know there must be differences and when people say there aren\'t I just raise my eyes and go ask someone else."
 
How many people are you going to ask before you believe? them or are you waiting for some one to say the handling is ruined and then say I told you so?
 
 
From what I have read there is meant to be around a 40lb difference "IF" all things were equal. But that is a big if as they are never equal. And those 40lbs isn’t on the nose of the car its spread.
There is a school of thought that the LS1 actually has a better centre of gravity than the rotary as most of the weight is low down compared to the rotary. How true this is I don’t know but it is worth thinking about.
 
I\'m sorry I didn’t manage to weigh mine before and after but I\'m quite happy to weigh it now if you can find a car the same spec as mine to compare it with. Oh and no the crane didn’t seem to be straining any more lol. Yes the LS engines are great big things but they are alloy and plastic with at least 5.7 litres of air in them.
 
Oh I have got the weights of the rotary and gearbox which I can find if you want?
 
Yes I’ve driven them before and after but I\'m sorry to say that my driving skills were not up to a F1 driver so yes/no I cant tell any difference.
 
In the end of the day if you want to do it you will find good enough reason s to do so and if you don’t you will also find reasons not to.

I did extract those weights I posted from the american site after doing a search there are loads of different posting there regarding corner weighting etc in fact there is about an hours worth of reading there and the weights I posted seemed to be in my opinion about average.

No probs - what do you want the title to be then? :wave

Re-build or V8 transplant for the RX7 ?

Thanks, as I mentioned in one of my earlier posts if a new member considering buying an RX7 read the heading it could scar them for life.

No problem - it beats working ;)

David, you\'re being limp wristed. Your thread title is not inflammatory (although I can understand exactly why you might feel that way), it\'s just a statement of a true event which has happened to you. Unfortunately, these threads always end up as V8 versus rotary, even if they didn\'t start out that way, they always end up there (just look back at the history). I\'ve owned both rotary and V8 FD\'s (my current FD is V8). I loved my rotary and ended up rebuilding it twice myself (water seal failure on both occasions) before reliability issues eventually sickened me. After a brief spell back with a supra, I went for the V8 conversion (done by tinker). In terms of handling, both rotary and V8 still "feel" like RX7\'s, both handle equally well as far as my driving skills go. Of course the engine characteristics are totally different and that preference is down to personal choice. The key word for ME (read: my view only) was reliability. After my experiences with the rebuilds (and the constant worry about it letting go again afterwards) I wanted an RX7 with a decent amount of power (350~450hp) that would be reliable, and that\'s exactly what I have (owned for 1 year now). I fully understand your concerns regarding rotary reliability (even when they\'re built by the experts with all the right bits) and I know what it feels like when your pride and joy takes a sh1t on you. I really hope your rebuild works out and if you do consider V8 in the future, then it\'s because you WANT to, rather than feel you HAVE to. For all the V8 bashers out there (and just for the record, I do not mean all rotary owners), when\'s the last time you spoke to someone who had just been for a ride in a V8 RX7 and didn\'t love it???

Gary

There is no doubt my mind is made up and I have started the ball rolling with regards to which engine etc I will eventually settle on, the guys who did my re-build will be happy to do the conversion and I know they will do it right. The re-built rotary is running nicely at the moment and I am enjoying wasting petrol in the car. As I have said checking out the various threads on the U.S. site satisfies and confirms my decision about going down the V8 route and no points raised so far once investigated has put me off.
I can acknowledge that as a very new owner to the RX7 my descision could be taken as an over reaction but like decisions I have to make running my business ultimately the can stops with me so if it goes tits up its nobodies fault but mine.

This might be a good thread to read as this is about as close as a direct comparison that could have been. Unfortunately it now looks like it won’t happen, but makes interesting reading.
http://www.v8rx7forum.com/v8-rx7-technical/49714-gunfight-ok-corral.html

Oh, also it looks like the LS FD came out lighter than the rotary.

Such a mine of information that site, I did go through loads of other weight threads and in all honesty it may be that my lack of \'race tech\' knowledge that draws me to the conclusion that there is so little difference, after all we\'re not running F1 technology are we.

Quote from: David Wiltshire;527070Such a mine of information that site, I did go through loads of other weight threads and in all honesty it may be that my lack of \'race tech\' knowledge that draws me to the conclusion that there is so little difference, after all we\'re not running F1 technology are we.

Especially when you consider the cars are now up to 15 years old with many of them on the original suspension and bushes.

quite frankly i doubt theres anyone on this thread who can drive an FD to its potential such that any supposed balance or additional weight one way or the other would make any significant difference to their outright pace.
Its personal choice...ive stuck with the rotary because i like the power delivery, i like the fact theyre relatively easy to work on and i like the fact they are different.
Ive spoken to craig (tinker) a few times about V8 swaps and i was pretty damn tempted by the proposition of going V8 - i mean i wouldnt mind a shed load of torque from 2000 rpm all the way to the redline and the soundtrack that goes with it.

Jit, , im tempted by the v8 route as well. oh waht to do???!!!! next project decisions continuue!!

well mine was only touched by specialists first engine went pop and second one had crap compression after rebuild..never thrashed allways warmed up and cooled down finally had its 3rd rebuild in 4 yrs by carl
never got a chance to test that one as was too scared to go on boost personally i wish i had known about tinker 27 as i would have saved myself the grief and plopped a v8 in there
a v8 will not go tits up as long as u dont overrev it
instant torque good economy near identical weight dist bit of a no brainer really
as opposed to the paper mache rotary
please tell me whats so good about a car that will need regular rebuilds even in standard form
assume average 15000 mile mileage after 4 years compression will be down and nearing rebuild time..they are crap for fuel/average co 7% on idle
even rebuilt ones still go pop i would say the tuners workload is 70% rebuilds
now they do look good but the engine is poo to any prospective buyers do ur self a favour by a bucket and get the v8 in asap then do it up

v8.............

I find myself a bit undecided on this issue. I love big ol v8s and always have, well, always since that beautiful matt black Ford Falcon with the ludicrous supercharger and drag pipes in the first two Mad Max films made an impression at a young age. I\'ve got mates with Challengers, Mustangs, Lincolns, all sorts of Yank bruisers, even managed to blag a lift to take my wheels to the refurbishers in a mates Monte Carlo (yes, just like the one in Fat and the Furious Tokyo Drift, only not in primer) lol and it fitted three seventeen inch alloys in the damn trunk, for god\'s sake! So, it\'s fair to say I\'m an uninformed afficionado, enthusiastic amateur, if you like.

Oooops, I almost started a sentence with "but" then :Nono!......BUT, I don\'t think the right place for a big v8 is in an RX-7. Yeah, it may fit, and yeah, it may not disprupt the balance of the car, and yeah, it may well give you easy power and enough torque to plough fields, but I don\'t think that\'s the point really. Not for me, anyway. The rotary engine is an icon, it\'s unique in the motoring world (well since two-strokes were outlawed under the onslaught of the tree-hugging nazis). It is, if you like, the Unique Selling Point of the RX-7, cos let\'s face it, lots of cars look nice, lots of them handle well, and lots of them are well balanced. Some of them are even affordable, all of which things also describe the RX. None of them have a rotary engine that Mazda\'s engineers must\'ve been close to crying tears of blood over at many points in it\'s developement. To me, the mere fact that they can even have a stab at getting them through the current emissions circus is a testament to the unbelievable level of commitment shown to the humble little engine by its developers, and that alone makes it worthy of respect.

I just think that to strip an RX of all this makes it lose it\'s soul and heart. It is no longer an RX-7, a unique sports car in a world of shades of grey, it becomes simply another pretty looking car with a big engine. If you want a pretty v8, well, buy a Corvette, they come with a free v8 as standard. Even better, buy a Viper, they nearly go up to eleven!:Giggle

As for reliabilty, well, many highly tuned engines are unreliable. It\'s undeniable that many people on this site have had some pretty sh!tty luck with rotaries going pop, I wouldn\'t presume to deny this. I can only speak from personal experience, and I simply cannot kill mine (famous last words!). Believe me, no-one is more unlucky than me with vehicles, I\'ve killed more bikes in the line of duty than I can remember, I have the mechanical sensitivity of a baboon on pcp (and the good looks to match, lol), and drive as if every day was my last one on god\'s clean earth, but mine just keeps on going. Everything else on the car\'s fallen off, broken, burnt, snapped, rusted through, chafed apart or simply gone bang, but the engines still good. Unreliable? pah! dunno what all the fuss is about!

So, the short version is (too late for that); buy a v8 if you want one for its own sake, but dont do it at the expense of an RX-7, and don\'t neccessarily do it through fears of unreliablity. If the rotaries\' rebuilt properly, there\'s no reason why it shouldn\'t last properly. That\'s my 2p\'s worth, please give me a kick now :Thumbs-up

Quote from: rx7veilside;527138well mine was only touched by specialists first engine went pop and second one had crap compression after rebuild..never thrashed allways warmed up and cooled down finally had its 3rd rebuild in 4 yrs by carl
never got a chance to test that one as was too scared to go on boost personally i wish i had known about tinker 27 as i would have saved myself the grief and plopped a v8 in there
a v8 will not go tits up as long as u dont overrev it
instant torque good economy near identical weight dist bit of a no brainer really
as opposed to the paper mache rotary
please tell me whats so good about a car that will need regular rebuilds even in standard form
assume average 15000 mile mileage after 4 years compression will be down and nearing rebuild time..they are crap for fuel/average co 7% on idle
even rebuilt ones still go pop i would say the tuners workload is 70% rebuilds
now they do look good but the engine is poo to any prospective buyers do ur self a favour by a bucket and get the v8 in asap then do it up

i spose the only flaw in your plan is that not many prospective buyers have a spare 10k lying around for a v8 conversion on top of the price of their rx7. And very few RX7 owners look to hang onto their cars for any period of time....im a pretty big rotorhead and even i cant hold onto any FD for longer than 2 months at a time.....:WaveBye

Quote from: Jit;527180i spose the only flaw in your plan is that not many prospective buyers have a spare 10k lying around for a v8 conversion on top of the price of their rx7. And very few RX7 owners look to hang onto their cars for any period of time....im a pretty big rotorhead and even i cant hold onto any FD for longer than 2 months at a time.....:WaveBye

That\'s because you\'re a child of the MTV generation and your attention span has been strangled from birth!

Quote from: Nik da Greek;527179I\'ve got mates...

Lies..all lies old man.

Quote from: Nik da Greek;527179it\'s fair to say I\'m an uninformed afficionado, enthusiastic amateur, if you like.  

Nik is correct.

Quote from: Nik da Greek;527179please give me a kick now :Thumbs-up

Gladly...when you down in Small Dole next?

Okay, when I say mates, I mean people that tolerate me talking to them! Doesn\'t mean I\'m wrong, though :p!

wotcher :D

Yeah, wotcher back atcha. Got me good there, hats off to yer! :Thumbs-up

Quote from: Nik da Greek;527192Yeah, wotcher back atcha. Got me good there, hats off to yer! :Thumbs-up

Thats ok old man, the old brain cells are giving up. I understand...its perfectly natural once youve passed 50 :Typing
MTV generation coming thru.:Thumbs-up

I think at the end of the day its all about personal choice really, if the rotary is running sweet its great but we all know it can be agonising when running badly, the V8 conversion will cost a bit but then again it could be trouble free running for a long time ??? :Tongue1

Quote from: rx7veilside;527138well mine was only touched by specialists first engine went pop and second one had crap compression after rebuild..never thrashed allways warmed up and cooled down finally had its 3rd rebuild in 4 yrs by carl
never got a chance to test that one as was too scared to go on boost personally i wish i had known about tinker 27 as i would have saved myself the grief and plopped a v8 in there
a v8 will not go tits up as long as u dont overrev it
instant torque good economy near identical weight dist bit of a no brainer really
as opposed to the paper mache rotary
please tell me whats so good about a car that will need regular rebuilds even in standard form
assume average 15000 mile mileage after 4 years compression will be down and nearing rebuild time..they are crap for fuel/average co 7% on idle
even rebuilt ones still go pop i would say the tuners workload is 70% rebuilds
now they do look good but the engine is poo to any prospective buyers do ur self a favour by a bucket and get the v8 in asap then do it up

Shouldn\'t you be at the scooby doo forums as you now own one? All you ever do is moan about the rotary engine...  blah blah blah... fair enough you\'ve had a bad experience, maybe the rotary simply isn\'t for you, or maybe the rotary doesn\'t like you? this is a rotary forum so if you dont like it dont come here :2Mad

entitled to an opinion..and if it helps give a balanced view of the pitfalls to anyone then i will give said opinion
as i say the rx7 is a great looking car a great handling car it just happens to have a crap engine
can u honestly say a engine that has an expected lifespan of 60000 miles tops and will loose compression well before then and poss water seal failure as well
does tops about 16mpg in urban if u stay off boost has an alarming failure rate even in rebuilt engines will flood if it doesnt catch right can destroy its own ozone layer just on tickover is a good engine
i like rx7s for their looks their handling etc i just happen to think a rx7 with a v8 is a better package
you wont destroy the planet you will get the same handling and weight dist you will get stunning performance you will get 25mpg more on a run and a engine that sounds better than anything on the planet
put tinker 27,s car or craigs car or any other v8 7 up against a rotary and they will more than hold their own and still drive home

I have e-mailed one of the big engine conversion specialists Hinsons asking for the price of an LS1/T56 engine and gearbox combo this is a new crated engine. So as soon as they reply to my e-mail I\'ll put the details on this thread.

After reading Niick\'s articulate ramblings I now feel like the Ludite agent of engine replacement by pulling out the delicate heart of the rotary and replacing it with Frankensteins cousin in the form of a big unsubtle V8.
Ahh who cares bring it on!

itll be the best thing you do for the rotary:mmmm:mmmm

Quote from: rx7veilside;527220entitled to an opinion..and if it helps give a balanced view of the pitfalls to anyone then i will give said opinion
as i say the rx7 is a great looking car a great handling car it just happens to have a crap engine

B0llocks, to dismiss it has a crap engine is completely unacceptable. And I struggle to understand why you hang around here if you have that view. The rotary is a unique, fascinating and great piece of engineering, with phenomenal possibilitys, how can 1000hp from a 1.3 be crap?
The reliability issues you speak of are overexaggerated, the rotary will only work in fine tolerances and to keep within in them it needs to be well looked after.
How people expect to get a used £36,000 sports car for 4-5k and presume it to be perfect is beyond me!
I dont personally mind people installing a V8 in a RX, I just dont like deluded, uneducated, ignorant, bitter slagging off one of the best engines ever made.

best engine ever made now that is plain daft..do a poll how many engines have gone pop and also rebuilt ones
i am merely giving the view that a rotaryv8 is far more reliable than a tuned rotary engine
the whole 1.3 is a bit of a myth as well its not really a 1.3 is it
as i said i love the looks/handling of a 7 but come on to say the engine is fragile and tempramental would be a huge understatement
i understand tuners have a vested interest in extoling the virtues of the rotary but people need to understand the pitfalls with these cars i only used tuners to work on mine never touched it myself and still needed 3 engines in 4 years
i never thrashed it it allways warmed it up warmed it down only used recommended tuner parts culdnt have pampered it more
i merely am offering the non rose tinted view of the rotary then people can make their own minds up

An engine rebuild is irrelavant if there is an ancillary causing the engine to go pop in the beginning. If this is not addressed the engine will blow again. So you cant always blame the engine.
Many other performance car engines blow, skylines, evo, imprezas etc.

Quote from: rx7veilside;527237i only used tuners to work on mine never touched it myself and still needed 3 engines in 4 years
i never thrashed it it allways warmed it up warmed it down only used recommended tuner parts culdnt have pampered it more
i merely am offering the non rose tinted view of the rotary then people can make their own minds up

I went through 3 engines in 10-11 months as a few people know.......... bit of a pain in the ar$e and disheartening but there was an electrical fault with the car.    these things happen, i am very much on the hunt for another rex now as have got bored of evo\'s etc.

What other engine can you simply wack a turbo on with a rebuild and treble the power the engine arrived with?  
Trying doing that with a skyline and you would have just spent £40k as suppose to about £5-6k

I am not against V8 conversions, think they are really interesting and have their place but the rotary engine is well up there with one of the best designed engines of all time.

Quote from: rx7veilside;527220put tinker 27,s car or craigs car or any other v8 7 up against a rotary and they will more than hold their own and still drive home

Luv to, tell them to bring their cars to the Jap Show Finale and I will happly go against them up the quarter mile :D
One guess who is going to win, In terms of performance bang for buck my little rotary is going to win.

Quote from: David Wiltshire;527225After reading Niick\'s articulate ramblings I now feel like the Ludite agent of engine replacement by pulling out the delicate heart of the rotary and replacing it with Frankensteins cousin in the form of a big unsubtle V8.
Ahh who cares bring it on!

Ha ha, most kind! I just thought I\'d try and bring a different perspective to the discussion. I obviously can\'t comment on the effect the transplant has on handling and performance because I haven\'t driven both, and I\'m not about to hold an opinion on something I have no experience of (an attitude a few people might be advised to try once in a while lol :D). I\'d never accuse anyone doing the transplant of Luddite-ism-ishness! I\'ve never seen one in the flesh, but have read mag articles and seen the build-up threads, and the quality of the engineering seems excellent, I\'ve posted to compliment the builders on their work before. So please don\'t get the idea I\'m having a pop at the guys who build and run v8s, cos I\'m not. I was merely saying that from my point of view, an RX-7 with a v8 just isn\'t an RX-7 anymore because it no longer has that which makes it unique.

But, hey, dude, it\'s your car, you do what you want to it! You asked for opinions, but I wouldn\'t expect anyone to give mine much credibility :Giggle. I do sometimes get tired of the reliability whinges, though. Like I said, if you\'ve actually had an engine blow up, then fair enough, you\'re entitled to a grumble. It seems to me, however, that a lot of the "unreliabilty" issues that are placed at the feet of the rotary are in fact nothing to do with the engine itself, but ancilliary problems that could affect any comparable piston engine, such as vaccuum line issues, solenoids failing, wiring problems (often caused by exposure to extreme turbo heat) etc. These are not unique to rotaries, but someone has boost issues caused by one or all of them, and posts up "bloody unreliable rotaries", and it sticks. Like Dragon says, to get the sort of performance we do out of even a standard 1.3 litre engine is phenomenal, and probably should not be under-valued as a feat of engineering!

I can\'t help thinking this is all down to comparing like with like. A big block 6 litre V8 is unstressed producing 400bhp so it is reliable. A 1.3 litre rotary (and yes it really is 1.3 litres in displacement) is more stressed to produce that level of power. I\'m sorry, I look at the rotary engine as one of the best pieces of engineering in the automotive arena. Run around in a 1000bhp RB26 engined skyline for a few months and see how many times that needs serious engine work, it would be comparable. Take an LS1 or LS7 engine up to 1200bhp and see how long it lasts!

At te end of the day it\'s horses for courses, like Ross I am not opposed to V8 conversions per se, I wouldn\'t do it myself as I think the rotary engine is the heart of an RX, I am a purist I suppose, in much the same way as sticking a 427 Hemi in a Porsche 911 would be seen as not the right thing to do! I also believe that voicing ones opinion is perfectly valid, but it is an opinion and should be seen as such, there are many people on the forum who have owned rotarys for years without problem, there are many FDs in other parts of the world which last significantly longer than the 60k that many believe is the engine life here. As Ross said, there may have been any number of reasons for an engine to go, remember we are talking about cars which are now up to 16 years old, ancillaries, wiring, fuel lines, hoses etc are as old as the car. Many high performance cars start suffereing as they age and if you buy a car for £5k that was nigh on £40k new you will still have repair bills and runnings costs that are associated with a £40k car not a £5k one.

Quoteas i say the rx7 is a great looking car a great handling car

how would you know? you said yourself you never drove your car hard :rollin:rollin

Just as well these threads don\'t always deteriorate into rotary versus V8...

"dis\'cuss v.t. Examine by argument, debate; hold conversation about"

Quote from: connor66;527269Just as well these threads don\'t always deteriorate into rotary versus V8...

as long as they stay informative and have valid points from both sides I don\'t see a problem it is after all a issue which some people feel passionatly about:spank

Sar·casm : "A form of wit that is marked by the use of sarcastic language and is intended to make its victim the butt of contempt or ridicule."

oooooh good comeback :King

Quoteoooooh good comeback

Thankyou. Ironically, I totally agree with both Nik and sadgoth.

I think i said before that all performance cars have some kind of weak spot, not looked after properly or not worked on properly then there will be issues with each and every one of them, just the way it goes.

Running higher power = higher stress = more problems in the long run, most Skylines are rebuild around 60K too and higher powered Scoobies and Evo\'s are rebuilt sooner due to stress tolerences

how many of these damn threads do we need?? if u want reliabilty and fuel economy, buy a golf! if u want the above and a nippy car, buy a golf gti! but if u wana fall in love with a piece of machinery and totally relight that old flame of which is driving, buy a rx7
 
 
sorry to hear about the blown engine mate, but could you seriously not get it fixed?? i bet ya missing it already ;) lol

err he has already got it fixed lol he is debating to go V8 if it blows again

Quote from: connor66;527288Sar·casm : "A form of wit that is marked by the use of sarcastic language and is intended to make its victim the butt of contempt or ridicule."

Outstanding comeback! :god Believe me when I say I had no intention of inflicting contempt OR ridicule, just trying to point out that there\'s no need to reduce it to a rotary vs v8 rant, everyone seemed to be making rational, well reasoned points on the whole. But I probably deserved a slap there, I should have included one of these -> :) in my post really!

Quote from: BlitzBoy;527347err he has already got it fixed lol he is debating to go V8 if it blows again

 
my bad :Ladys-man

No worries Nik. I honestly think your posts during your own recent misfortune were some of the funniest I\'ve ever read, they had me in tears (the humour, not the situation). I totally agree though, these threads could be very informative if everyone kept things rational

Gary

Glad to have been of service! :Thumbs-upBelieve me, they nearly had me in tears too, a few times!

I have spoken today to a U.K. based company who can supply the LS2 engine (the LS1 is an old engine)the ecu/loom inc. fly by wire throttle a TKO 500 gearbox plus air-con for £7855 plus VAT all brand new this is a turn-key package.
How does this compare with stateside prices?
P.S. I wont consider s/h it\'s a potential mine-field.

Just to get a sense of proportion here this engine is quoted at 400 bhp.
If anyone with near that power and mods on a rotary can give me an idea how much they have spent in total on the engine to date, and how long they expect it to run without a re-build or what they have budgeted for this event.
Not sure if this is allowed regarding rules of the forum but if it is I think it would be an interesting exercise.

Quote from: rx7veilside;527237best engine ever made now that is plain daft..do a poll how many engines have gone pop and also rebuilt ones
i am merely giving the view that a rotaryv8 is far more reliable than a tuned rotary engine
the whole 1.3 is a bit of a myth as well its not really a 1.3 is it
as i said i love the looks/handling of a 7 but come on to say the engine is fragile and tempramental would be a huge understatement
i understand tuners have a vested interest in extoling the virtues of the rotary but people need to understand the pitfalls with these cars i only used tuners to work on mine never touched it myself and still needed 3 engines in 4 years
i never thrashed it it allways warmed it up warmed it down only used recommended tuner parts culdnt have pampered it more
i merely am offering the non rose tinted view of the rotary then people can make their own minds up

Fail !!!
Go do one to your scooby forum, this is a club for ROTARY enthusaists.
An unbiased view ? Don\'t make me laugh you have probably the most biased view because you couldn\'t get an engine right.
And get used to seeing rx7\'s in front of you because a well tuned one will always be regardless of what you do to your scooby.
My mate has a 400bhp scooby and couldn\'t keep up with a rx7 running 330 bhp, and now the scooby has engine problems and the rex is fine.
And when you tune your scooby, or an evo, or a skyline or supra, lets see how reliable they are ... you are a muppet if you think they will not require a rebuild at some point after being highly tuned.

Good luck with your quest for meaningful posts David, as the Dragon\'s would say...I\'m out.

i think the cost comparison regarding getting to 400bhp would be very interesting to see, but wouldnt be a valid test as such

it would be hard to be accurate as the rotary is built for the car, and you may (or may not depending how you work it) have to include, the subframes, gearbox, rear end modifications (of which there are many schools of thought) plus all the required ancillaries in factoring the cost.

Quote from: Rzla;527618Fail !!!
Go do one to your scooby forum, this is a club for ROTARY enthusaists.
An unbiased view ? Don\'t make me laugh you have probably the most biased view because you couldn\'t get an engine right.
And get used to seeing rx7\'s in front of you because a well tuned one will always be regardless of what you do to your scooby.
My mate has a 400bhp scooby and couldn\'t keep up with a rx7 running 330 bhp, and now the scooby has engine problems and the rex is fine.
And when you tune your scooby, or an evo, or a skyline or supra, lets see how reliable they are ... you are a muppet if you think they will not require a rebuild at some point after being highly tuned.

thanks for that highly intelligent quote
i wasnt trying to get the engine right i never touched it myself left that to the tuner and all the talk of my mate has this and my mate has that is pointless
so a well tuned rx7 will be in front regardless of whats done to the scoob another load of nonsence originally my 7 was 400rwhp and to be honest i didnt think it was that special whereas the scoob will give u a kick in the back every time
however i didnt post on this thread about the virtues of a scoob versus a 7 i posted that a well sorted v8 was more reliable better mpg better emmissions and arguably better sounding
someone else decided to bring the scoob into the equation not me
read the posts all i have said is that the v8 is more reliable gives better mpg and better emmissions
a 400hp rx7 is a ticking bomb a 400bhp v8 is barely even breathing heavy at that level of tune
take the blinkers off and i dont see why u need to start insulting i havnt

Quote from: David Wiltshire;527551I have spoken today to a U.K. based company who can supply the LS2 engine (the LS1 is an old engine)the ecu/loom inc. fly by wire throttle a TKO 500 gearbox plus air-con for £7855 plus VAT all brand new this is a turn-key package.
How does this compare with stateside prices?
P.S. I wont consider s/h it\'s a potential mine-field.

If I were you and wanted new I\'d have a look/search on LS1tech.com. From my limited experience LS3\'s now look the way to go.

QuoteOriginally Posted by David Wiltshire  
I have spoken today to a U.K. based company who can supply the LS2 engine (the LS1 is an old engine)the ecu/loom inc. fly by wire throttle a TKO 500 gearbox plus air-con for £7855 plus VAT all brand new this is a turn-key package.

Bad luck David, Personally i will stick with the unique engine that is designed for the car. i don\'t know how fitting a V8 affects re-sale value, or higher insurance costs,etc. ( i can\'t see spending 10K on the car will increase it\'s value by 10K)  TBH if you allow say even £3K.ish for a rebuild, you are paying 7K in advance to save a few miles on a gallon, Plus IMHO limit the cars
 re-sale market, and to make it \'arguably\' sound better! Surely if you are prepared to spend 10K (does that include a diff/suspension etc.?) you could get 3 rebuilds from that, and stick with the well balanced rotary engined car that makes the RX7 the special car that it is,
Iv\'e done 15K on my rebuild (new parts used 4 years ago) and it\'s brilliant !feels as though it\'s only just run in! it has never flooded or backfired, never fails to start /re-start hot cold or only run for 10 seconds! and was only rebuilt because of water seal failure after 11 years with no corrosion inhibitor in the coolant. (which kills a lot of 7\'s! and which could effect any engine, but the rotary design gets the blame as usual!)
Probably been said before, but i hope you find out the true reason that caused your engine to blow in the first place, ignition failure fuel pump, or whatever, because it will happen again, and then the rotary engine will unjustly become the target yet again!
I bought my car knowing the seals had gone, but personally i view a Rebuild as an investment for future trouble free driving.(which i still have) Of course some anciliary failure can catch you out, (applies to any car) A rotary rebuild really is not a big deal, IMHO. i have rebuilt several V8s, (now that\'s a big deal!) Hey, you can even get a rebuild with 2 year warrenty, Which will increase the re-sale value of the car! Personal choice of course matey, and wish you all the best with whatever way you go,
Bob

Point taken, I usually get bored with a car after three years or the tax man decides to send me a huge bill and I have to panic and sell my current unnecesary indulgences. Just of recently its been the three year boredom thing but the RX is at this moment in time has a lot going for it plus I don\'t really think they are that easy to sell quickly.
I agree about the number of re-builds you could have for the price of a conversion but as I have said before I will not pay for another re-build although my greatest regret will be losing the 1300cc road tax bracket which is all part of the big smile these cars impart on the owner.

Quote from: Spartacus;527631If I were you and wanted new I\'d have a look/search on LS1tech.com. From my limited experience LS3\'s now look the way to go.

Had a look the LS3 puts out 480 bhp and its the very latest engine but its £7-800 dearer than the LS2 and with buying new its raising the price. I may have to consider second hand/pull-out after all.
If I have a good year next year (my specialist part of the construction industry shows no sign of the recession hitting it yet) then I don\'t mind throwing the money at the car as I probably wouldn\'t want to sell it after having all this work done anyway.

Jeez, with the prices of even good Rx-7s the way they are now, you could buy a couple of entire spare cars for the 10k the conversion would cost, and keep them in the shed for when the current one goes bang again!

You said it, bang again, don\'t you feel real disapointment when this happens, now why on earth come back for more and I feel if it does it again I will be forced to do a Basil Fawlty and one of my friends or my wife will catch it on video and there I\'m forever branded.
I have spent a bit of time browsing the U.S. site and the cars that have this conversion look really good and I mean really good.

Quote from: David Wiltshire;527681You said it, bang again, don\'t you feel real disapointment when this happens, now why on earth come back for more and I feel if it does it again I will be forced to do a Basil Fawlty and one of my friends or my wife will catch it on video and there I\'m forever branded.
I have spent a bit of time browsing the U.S. site and the cars that have this conversion look really good and I mean really good.

Well, not really, dude, you\'re the one who\'s motivation for this thread stemmed from a need to investigate options for just such an eventuality. I bought a car from someone who\'d very considerately done the blowing it up and rebuilding it thing for me, so a) I don\'t need to worry, because it appears David at the late, great Rotechnics built it properly, God bless him and b) I haven\'t therefore had it blow up the first time, so can\'t realistically worry about it happening again. Cos it never happened the first time as far I\'m concerned! Sorry, Alice in Wonderland bit there, did it make sense?!

I\'ve had more unreliable vehicles than my RX-7 (hard to believe if anyone\'s actually read some of the drivel I\'ve written about it this year) but I\'ve learnt that you just need sometimes to suck it up and get on with it. The bottom line is that sh!t \'appen, and it\'ll \'appen at you whatever you drive if you do it long enough. Yeah, there are times when the Basil Fawlty routine is more than justified, but at the end of the day it solves little. Maybe my perspective is different cos I\'ve been on two wheels so much longer than four. TBH, after you\'ve had stuff happen like a gearbox drop a cog and lock up on the way down a motorway slip road at a good 70 in the rain, and you\'re sliding up the back of a queue of trucks waiting at the junction, a mere rotary engine going pop just really doesn\'t seem very scary or annoying. I\'ve had so many near death experiences, I can sleep through the boring bits of my life flashing in front of my eyes! I do try to wake up for that girl in the sixth form, though, the one with the big, erm, eyes.....:Giggle

Sorry, wandered waaaay off-message then, carry on! Yeah, I said that earlier, a lot of the conversions are fantastic bits of engineering and a real credit to their builders

I\'m quite sure that Chris at Re-Worx has done a good job and who knows I\'m wasting petrol carefully until it goes back for a final tune and maybe just maybe it will last until the new skyline is cheap enough for me to afford second hand.
Just in case I will buy the parts bit by bit and who knows I may land up having one of the fastest Transits around or at least for a while, thinking about it I may run that past my accountant.
I would still like to know how much you would spend to get a 400+ bhp rotary I\'ll ask when the car goes back if nobody answers by then.

Well, I hope it\'s all good for you, geez. I\'m sure RE:Worx have done a top job and you\'ll never need to find out if the v8 would\'ve upset your handling, cos by your own admission you move cars on quite quickly anyway, so the engine may well outlast you! I\'m sure when you gat it out of run-in it\'ll put such a smile on your face you won\'t want to change it anyway

to get 400bhp
1/gt35/40 turbo downpipe/manifold/wastegate and fitting---£2000 approx
2/bigger injectors uprated pump adj fuel reg and fitting-----£1000  approx
3/good 3 inch exhaust and fitting--------------------------£600   approx
4/aftermarket ecu and fitting and mapping-----------------£1000+ approx
depending on ecu cheaper for apexi
5/either big fmic(bad for rad temps)or aftermarket v mount and induction kit
---------------------------------------------------------£1000-1500 depending on whos kit(re worx v mount seems very good but prob at upper price band)
so roughly £6000 plus cost of porting and def rebuild to engine to ensure it doesnt go pop straight away approx 3500-4000 for a fully rebuilt ported engine
so all in all better to just see tinker 27 and get the v8:rollin:rollin:rollin:rollin
of course you could use all second hand parts and poss drop urself in the doodoo and save a few quid while waiting for the day it pops
hope this answers ur orig question about how much to get 400bhp from the rotary as opposed to 400bhp from a v8
remember tinker 27 does a 10k drive in drive out and if u sell the gearbox/prop/turbo pack rad etc from the rotary prob near 7k to get a stonking v8:D

Thanks I was thinking along the same lines cost wise it would be unwise I would have thought to do all this without the re-build/porting. The package that I favour does now include the latest LS3 engine which pushes out a good 480 bhp (well thats what the makers say) but remember this includes all new ancilaries and a gearbox. So in a rushed coclusion this morning if my rotatry is good and working at the time I have all the V8 bits (Re-Worx will do the installation) I should get a few quid for the bits on my car.

tinker 27 is the man for these swaps he knows all the pitfalls and shortcuts as he has done a few now speak to him and look at the various options he uses

To get 400bhp at the flywheel or close to it you dont need a single turbo conversion by the way guys.
To get 400bhp at the wheels then yes you do need a single turbo conversion.

It all comes down to personal choice, if you prefer a V8 noise or a rotary high reving noise. Its Davids own car and he can do what the hell he likes with it. When his car is fully run in and mapped correctly then David will decide if he likes the rotary to stick with it or not.

But in terms of out and out performance a Rotary edges it I feel imo,
This is the main reasons why the the Puerta Rico guys in their little rotaries like sticking it to the V8 yank guys and winning.

btw David you have forgotton the cost of redoing your front suspension as well to handle the V8 up front.

rx7veilside you quote
"originally my 7 was 400rwhp and to be honest i didnt think it was that special whereas the scoob will give u a kick in the back every time"
You never had the car fully mapped/finished to feel what a real rotary 400rwhp can do in a rexy, which is a shame as you are only looking it from your own ex car experiance, if im ever down your neck of the woods I will give you a ride in mine but be warned its not as plush inside like your old rx :)

no it had approx 400 before it went the 2nd time..ill never know what carls work would have yielded
my main point is that at 400hp the v8 is very very under stressed a 400hp rotary is really in the twilight zone
i am not saying they dont make good power but i would advise anyone for the road keep it simple keep the twins redo the rats nest and all solenoids completly as when u start modding the engine becomes shall we say fickle

Blitzboy, I\'m struggling with some of what you\'ve said:

QuoteThis is the main reasons why the the Puerta Rico guys in their little rotaries like sticking it to the V8 yank guys and winning.

Are we talking about Puerta Rico guys in rotary RX7\'s sticking it to yanks in V8 RX7\'s and winning?

Quotebtw David you have forgotton the cost of redoing your front suspension as well to handle the V8 up front.

Not required. It\'s highly debatable as to whether any weight is added at all after the conversion, but even if there is, it\'s way less than a 10 stone passenger. Do you re-do your near-side suspension when you take a passenger out?

I do however agree that a 400hp RX7 (even flywheel) should kick you in the back or something is wrong. My rotary was only 320 (ish) flywheel and that kicked me in the back, loved it.

Gary

yes to we are talking about Puerta Rico guys in their Rotary RX7s and winning also the other Rotary powered cars they have , have you seen those Starlets fly :D

Hmmm well we know a guy called Robbie who has done the LS V8 conversion to his RX7 who had to readjust his front suspension not really due to the weight but its distribution really, eg damper and spring rates to get it to handle correctly, he was at TOTB this year with it.

Robbie will be more qualified to talk about suspension than me if he\'s tracking it, mine is for road use only. I use standard type x suspension (because it\'s comfortable and I\'m old) which has been modified to allow height adjustment all round.
Gary

there is some real miss information on this thread,power,costs,weight,handling,lap times etc.its not for everybody but it does work and keeps the fds on the road and not getting broken up into bits with p*ssed off owners. there is some good info out there if you look and lots off crap as well good luck !!!

Thanks I got an e-mail from Hinsons about a number of \'pull-outs\' they have. Considering the posibility of selling it on later in time I\'m begining to think that a \'pull-out\' may be better suited financially then I can spend a bit of money upgrading the brakes. I have been told my new suspension set-up will be o.k.
I still think overall this thread has held it together (just) as far as my stated cost\'s are concerned I have only repeated what I have in e-mails so if there are some errors let us know. The weights I posted were also from an accurate source so do say if I\'ve got anything wrong. I am not sure if some of the other figures throughout this thread may be wrong so if these can be brought up without a playground spat kicking off we will all learn something.

Mentioned by someone briefly but what about a Cosworth conversion  ?

A decent rebuilt engine is about £2000 if you look on the RS forum, only ever seen it done once on the FD by Ben Linney but not sure what happened to the car in the end tbh :(

Cosworth! he wants a reliable Engine Gurj, 500bhp in a cosworth is just as risky as the 13b :rollin

Yea and you only get half an engine

David I reckon if you go the V8 route next year,turbo or supercharge the mofo!!!! Mad Max style yeah baby :D

Quote from: BlitzBoy;527880Cosworth! he wants a reliable Engine Gurj, 500bhp in a cosworth is just as risky as the 13b :rollin

No no, i meant a reliable engine at say 350bhp and the mpg is not so bad, didn\'t mean massive power as 2k is cheaper than the alternatives :Giggle

Thought about getting a FB and transplanting a cosworth lump, obviously didn\'t do it but the idea is sound :2eek

na I dont think cosworths were that relaible even at 350bhp, had a few friends who luv the cossies they must have gone through 5 engines between them.
The LS series engines are new tech in terms of V8s.
And you leave that poor FB alone lol

Linneys old motor was up on eBay a while back, missing the Cossie lump.  It was partially converted to run a 200sx lump from memory.

Thread should still be on here :)

Chris

Quote from: BlitzBoy;527898na I dont think cosworths were that relaible even at 350bhp, had a few friends who luv the cossies they must have gone through 5 engines between them.
The LS series engines are new tech in terms of V8s.
And you leave that poor FB alone lol

I had a Escort Cosworth a while back running 330bhp and was reliable and quite good on fuel. But deffo not as quick as the rx\'s i had :flamed

Well its looking like I may have to go down the V8 route now. Driving the car yesterday fully warmed up etc accelerating in top at about 3000 rpm I hear a strange whirring/whizzing sound check the Apexi and its reading 93-4-5-6 engine dies slip into neutral and fortunately cruise into a side road. Red lights on oil and water guages and the car smells hot leave it for about an hour car turns over but not firing so call rescue to get picked up.
Now since having the re-build I have very carefully checked the oil and water levels everyday and last Tuesday was Dyno\'ed and after consulting with Max decide to run at .8 bar so I get a smooth curve to 350 at the flywheel. Hopefully tomorrow will have it trailored to Re-Worx but I expect the worse and if so its goodbye to rotary engines for good as far as I\'m concerned because i have run this new re-built engine in with the greatest care I have ever put into a vehicle and that includes some of my old motorbikes that required very carefull running in so even with the greatest degree of mechanical sympathy that anyone can run a motor it has sha* on me for probably the last time.

Have you not thought about the 3 rotor N/A renisis ??

Shaun

do it you wont be disappointed !!!

Quote from: shaunwil;539407Have you not thought about the 3 rotor N/A renisis ??
 
Shaun

No, in all honesty if this is terminal thats it I must cut my losses.

Quote from: tinker-27;539435do it you wont be disappointed !!!

tinker 27, from what I can gather you\'re an expert on this conversion as money is a bit tighter than I thought (still got to find the money to do my bathroom) I may have to take the car off the road for quite a while. Do you think the LS1 is a good enough engine if I have to go for a \'pullout\' and what gearbox is best suited. I\'ve given up the idea of buying a new crated LS3 as the overall cost doesn\'t really justify doing it so any guideance you can provide will be most helpfull.

A post 2002 LS1 from an F body is best with the t56 it comes with if you’re on a budget. Some changes were made in 2004 with the GTO LS1 with a stronger gearbox etc but you would then need to swap the sump and associated parts along with the engine mounts to fit in with the subframe. When I got mine, the supplier in the US did all this for me at no extra charge. Another plus with the latter LS1\'s is that they are likely to be available with lower mileages.
In my opinion the LS1 is a good choice as they are easily and relatively cheaply tuneable as and when you want more power. And the wiring aspect is well documented and easy to do.

Spartacus, I remember you saying that the people you bought the engine from sent you a video etc of it running would it be worth me contacting them at some stage. It sounds like the later engine is the best choice from what you say. As far as the whole project goes from a time point of view I do need to sort out a few domestic things before engines so if the rotary cannot be brought back to life I will have to store it away and do the project at a later date.

The people I used were cleveland pick a part and their email address is cleveland_pick_a_part@yahoo.com. From when I researched mine they came out as one of the most respected suppliers.  

But you never know, with any luck you may not need to use them if yours isn’t too bad, fingers crossed eh.

Thank you, I have made a note.