Mazda Rotary Club

General => General Technical => Anything Engine/Performance/Tuning related => Topic started by: karl_tate on August 07, 2008, 06:52:05 PM

Title: lets talk intercoolers again...
Post by: karl_tate on August 07, 2008, 06:52:05 PM
i keep changing my mind from V mount to front mount every other day :3Confused

if i go v mount i will have to get a new rad because of the hoses but then im thinking i will need to change it anyway if i go front mount as well, help :p

been looking at this one, any know if it looks any good or should i keep away???

cheers

karl
Title: lets talk intercoolers again...
Post by: lee mills on August 07, 2008, 06:53:00 PM
cant see any pics or links mate
 
Lee
Title: lets talk intercoolers again...
Post by: karl_tate on August 07, 2008, 07:03:27 PM
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/NEW-MAZDA-RX-7-RX7-RX-8-RX8-FRONT-MOUNT-INTERCOOLER-KIT_W0QQitemZ320283060884QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item320283060884&_trkparms=72%3A636%7C39%3A1%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14.l1318

:p :p lol
Title: lets talk intercoolers again...
Post by: peterwolds on August 07, 2008, 07:15:05 PM
Karl safer buying named brand this MAY be ok but so vital its right on an RX
Title: lets talk intercoolers again...
Post by: S3TH on August 07, 2008, 07:18:43 PM
It does look nice, looks like one of those greddy-copies. But to think it\'s built, polished & advertised for under £200 is quite mad! Instinct tells me corners may have been cut... for not much more you could get a genuine greddy 3core from the classifieds.

As for fm vs vm... I\'ve always been for vm, they\'re both good setups so you can\'t make a bad decision... My main gripe with fm setups is the uncessarily excessive amounts of hard pipes just chilling in the engine bay.

BAD, cheap fmic\'s disallow air to pass through properly to the rad, hence my advise to source a well known performance brand.

Either way, a good rad will easily hold its own in a fmic setup, & even better in a vm.
Title: lets talk intercoolers again...
Post by: rx7boy on August 07, 2008, 07:20:20 PM
If you are going fromt mount you will still have to change you rad as cooling will be a real issue. I bought a intercooler of ebay. think the company was called 2fast2cool. Its a greddy replica and fitts really well. but yeah if you are gonna put fmix then al;so change rad or u could end up with problems.
Title: lets talk intercoolers again...
Post by: RobbieRX-7 on August 07, 2008, 07:40:56 PM
You wont need a new rad if you go Vmount. I\'ve kept a stock koyo without modification, just flipped over 180 degrees then tilted the opposite way.  The only trouble you run into is a hose at the front hangs a little low, but you can raise it enough to be level with the front bumper.
Title: lets talk intercoolers again...
Post by: RobbieRX-7 on August 07, 2008, 08:07:47 PM
Then i might go for this http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=011&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&viewitem=&item=320270117121&rd=1
Title: lets talk intercoolers again...
Post by: karl_tate on August 07, 2008, 10:06:59 PM
ok cheers guys,
 
that was my worry with the bottom hose. i will just another rad suitable.
 
re intercooler will buy a better "branded" one :D
 
that looks very cheap. a bit too cheap
Title: lets talk intercoolers again...
Post by: Ed_RX7 on August 07, 2008, 10:10:23 PM
just buy mine ...best FMIC available IMO
Title: lets talk intercoolers again...
Post by: Ed_RX7 on August 07, 2008, 10:14:51 PM
Quote from: rx7boy;522652If you are going fromt mount you will still have to change you rad as cooling will be a real issue. I bought a intercooler of ebay. think the company was called 2fast2cool. Its a greddy replica and fitts really well. but yeah if you are gonna put fmix then al;so change rad or u could end up with problems.

 
No mate....you got it wrong...you dont need to change the rad at all if you go FMIC.
 
 
The thing you need to consder is the pressure drop accross the I?C....its all well and good getting a big intercooler ..nice and cheap etc...but the name branded ones have done their research. I got one once that said it had a pressure drop of 1 psi at 1 bar....turned out to be 6 PSI:2Mad....you do get what you pay for period!
Title: lets talk intercoolers again...
Post by: karl_tate on August 08, 2008, 05:43:01 PM
ed, only just got your PM about turbo, sorry i didnt get in touch, but carnt afford at the minute what with the rebuild etc etc.

i didnt know it was still for sale, i thought it was on ebay??
Title: lets talk intercoolers again...
Post by: Ed_RX7 on August 09, 2008, 12:26:48 AM
yeh..but fraudsters though they would have a go ...prov sold now though
Title: lets talk intercoolers again...
Post by: karl_tate on August 09, 2008, 12:28:32 PM
ok, pr*cks :(

let me know if it falls through ;)
Title: lets talk intercoolers again...
Post by: Ed_RX7 on August 09, 2008, 12:47:07 PM
deffo sold bud.
Title: lets talk intercoolers again...
Post by: karl_tate on August 09, 2008, 12:48:38 PM
ok, no worries.
Title: lets talk intercoolers again...
Post by: hairyhoover on August 09, 2008, 08:44:13 PM
karl, ive got a intercooler for sale suppiled from re:worx, the make is brise. i can also send all the mounts so will be a direct fit. 24" wide 12" high 3" deep. are you using a single tub?
 
 cheers
 
http://www.brise.co.uk/
Title: lets talk intercoolers again...
Post by: 20B_boy on August 09, 2008, 11:15:04 PM
Quote from: hairyhoover;523169ive got a intercooler for sale suppiled from re:worx, the make is brise.
I imagine it came from RX Motors, RE:Worx have never supplied anything made by Brise.
Title: lets talk intercoolers again...
Post by: hairyhoover on August 10, 2008, 10:23:46 AM
It came on a car built and sold by reworx............
Title: lets talk intercoolers again...
Post by: karl_tate on August 10, 2008, 10:46:19 AM
ok cool, have you got any pictures and at what kind of price??
Title: lets talk intercoolers again...
Post by: Dr-Rotor on August 10, 2008, 08:21:41 PM
My 2c on FMIC. V-mounts aside for now...think air fluid dynamics.
 
Ever wonder if there is a difference between having the IC right up front or further back in the engine bay with ducting channeling air into it. We have been discussing it at the work shop for the past few weeks.

We had a car on the hoist with a stock bumper and FMIC....we put compressed air through it & you can feel the air that dose not make it through is wasted & spills over the sides....to me this dose not seem all that efficiant. I think an IC set further back with ducting panels to stop the air from escaping is better. My reason for this is that the air is forced into a space that will contain it. Air can be compressed so this would mean that the air that dose not flow through will hit the side of the ducting then be turned & forced back through again by the continuouse pressure of on coming air as the car picks up speed. Therefor minimising the loss of pressure over the face of the IC & increasing its efficiancy to cool & also helping the radiator to recive more air.

Now many companys have turned to V-mount but one tuner (Fujita) still use FMIC. Must be a reason they favor FMIC setup. Could be as simple as its easier to setup & duct perhaps. I could be wrong, who knows.

What do you think?
Title: lets talk intercoolers again...
Post by: hairyhoover on August 10, 2008, 09:17:04 PM
Quote from: karl_tate;523209ok cool, have you got any pictures and at what kind of price??

i will sort a couple out, have you got a single tub? and stock intake elbow?
Title: lets talk intercoolers again...
Post by: 20B_boy on August 10, 2008, 10:14:04 PM
Quote from: hairyhoover;523207It came on a car built and sold by reworx............
Take my word for it when i tell u that intercooler was not fitted by RE:Worx. The car was converted to single turbo by RX Motors.
Title: lets talk intercoolers again...
Post by: hairyhoover on August 11, 2008, 08:44:54 AM
ok. well it was suppiled to me by re:worx.
 
This was never mentioned to me when I brought the car - i was given the impression that it was a car built and serviced by reworx.
Title: lets talk intercoolers again...
Post by: karl_tate on August 11, 2008, 05:28:44 PM
yeh on single and stock elbow.

what does it matter wether re:worx or Rx motors did it??

Dr-Rotor i have been thinking about this for a long time and there is both advantages and disadvantages of both, it really depends how and where the car is used IMO.
Title: lets talk intercoolers again...
Post by: Dr-Rotor on August 11, 2008, 08:13:57 PM
Quote from: karl_tate;523477Dr-Rotor i have been thinking about this for a long time and there is both advantages and disadvantages of both, it really depends how and where the car is used IMO.

Yes perhaps to some it may matter where the car is use...dosent seem to bother fujita engineering...alot of their track cars are FMIC setup.
 
I have never seen any of there personal cars with a V-mount. I may be wrong....perhaps they have changed to V-mount. I just havent seen any as of yet.
Title: lets talk intercoolers again...
Post by: Dr-Rotor on August 11, 2008, 08:37:16 PM
Heck even there widebody track car is FMIC. There favorit Touge car remains FMIC too.
 
(http://www.fujita-eng.com/fd3s/img/pl_028_1.jpg)(http://www.fujita-eng.com/img/op20804-02.jpg)
Title: lets talk intercoolers again...
Post by: karl_tate on August 12, 2008, 05:34:20 PM
i was meaning more road cars, ie sat in traffic, stopping and starting, town driving etc etc.

it would be interesting to see the setup up close regarding ducting and radiator position.
Title: lets talk intercoolers again...
Post by: Dr-Rotor on August 12, 2008, 08:29:12 PM
Quote from: karl_tate;523830i was meaning more road cars, ie sat in traffic, stopping and starting, town driving etc etc.
 
it would be interesting to see the setup up close regarding ducting and radiator position.

 
Hell yea....Id love to see a close up pic....I do have some on my home PC but they are all dark in that reigon of the bumper so you cant see a thing.
 
O sorry about the jumping to conclusions about what type of use you ment. My Greddy FMIC with a Koyo rad behind it works perfectly fine on the street. Never gose past 85c...not even in summer. When I do a long drive the water temp will drop to 77c & sit there for ages...then slowly creep back up to 82c...sit there for a bit & then down again to 77c.
 
On the track it gets hot...4 laps of a 2.2km track with 2 straights long enough to wind out to 200kph +. We are in the process of trying to slow down the water pump...I think all the high rpm is making it inefficiant. I already have a greddy pully kit but what I need is one of those new alloy tanks that comes off the thermostat housing to give more clearance for a much larger pully.
 
Also as I have said before we need to move the IC further back to create a ram air trap & stop the air from spilling over the side. Much like the Fujita cars IC...its so far back you cant see the little bugger unless its a head on picture.
Title: lets talk intercoolers again...
Post by: karl_tate on August 12, 2008, 10:25:40 PM
cheers for that bit of info.

what kind of temps do you see when on track then??
Title: lets talk intercoolers again...
Post by: Dr-Rotor on August 12, 2008, 10:36:52 PM
Goes up to 112c...keeps going...so I dont stick around to find out how high it goes. Once I back off & do a lap at 100kph it dropes to high 80s pretty quickly.
 
Keep in mind I dont have very good ducting to my oil coolers...they just sit behind the holes in the bumper....I have yet to seal them off to help the air through them...so this will be playing a big part in my temps on the track.
 
Once I get that sorted I will post the results here....could be some time though as I am broke at the moment.
Title: lets talk intercoolers again...
Post by: Dr-Rotor on August 12, 2008, 10:39:20 PM
Reason for no ducting is that I have not found the right type of material that I want to use for the ducting. Also Im thinking of setting them back further to create that traped ram airflow as I intend to do with the IC.
Title: lets talk intercoolers again...
Post by: Carl on August 12, 2008, 10:49:06 PM
With our V mount we dont get high water temps at all on track even on hot day\'s with a greddy underdrive kit.
The air temps are usually in the 30c area but water stays around 85c to 90c.The intercooler is not massive,but is pretty efficient.
Regards
Carl
Title: lets talk intercoolers again...
Post by: Carl on August 12, 2008, 10:53:01 PM
A pretty good rule of thumb for an intercooler or rad is to have an inlet of around 1/4 of the size of the area needing to be cooled,after the air enters the smaller aperture the air then slows through the rad or intercooler which allows it time to remove the heat more effectively,and also maintains flow through the rad or intercooler rather than trying to escape from other places.
Ducting is essential for this,as is often moving the rad and cooler back a little from the front nose aperture.
Regards
Carl
Title: lets talk intercoolers again...
Post by: Dr-Rotor on August 12, 2008, 10:53:34 PM
Cheers. Yea V-mounts are good, Very good.
 
If theres one thing I dont have a problem with, its air temp...on the track its around 20 - 22c haaa the beauty of water injection.
Title: lets talk intercoolers again...
Post by: Carl on August 12, 2008, 10:55:15 PM
Dr Rotor, What RPM are you running the engine at?
Regards
Carl
Title: lets talk intercoolers again...
Post by: Dr-Rotor on August 12, 2008, 10:59:37 PM
Well my setup is way off with the sizeing you are talking about...I have a huge intake hole. LOL my car eats small children.
(http://rotarycarclub.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2124&d=1217971063)
Title: lets talk intercoolers again...
Post by: Dr-Rotor on August 12, 2008, 11:05:37 PM
Quote from: Carl;523956Dr Rotor, What RPM are you running the engine at?
Regards
Carl

8000rpm...every gear.
Title: lets talk intercoolers again...
Post by: Carl on August 12, 2008, 11:08:41 PM
We run GT35r\'s on out V mounts.
T78\'s too!
Biggest turbo we have run on the 13b on the road is a GT42r so far,but have been experimenting bigger on other engines with the GT47.
Regards
Carl
Title: lets talk intercoolers again...
Post by: Carl on August 12, 2008, 11:09:20 PM
Quote from: Dr-Rotor;5239618000rpm...every gear.

Shouldn\'t be the pulley kit then at that RPM.
Regards
Carl
Title: lets talk intercoolers again...
Post by: Dr-Rotor on August 12, 2008, 11:13:27 PM
Quote from: Carl;523964Shouldn\'t be the pulley kit then at that RPM.
Regards
Carl

Yea more likely my ducting to the oil coolers...or lack of...hahaha.
 
V-mount looks good & I know my FMIC can be fliped upside down & sloted in as V-mount...but its my Rad that might not work.
 
Where dose the air from the rad go in a V setup? Also can the IC be mounted near on flat?
Title: lets talk intercoolers again...
Post by: Carl on August 12, 2008, 11:16:19 PM
This is our V mount,one on stock elbow,the other on Greddy elbow.
You can see it is horizontal,with cool air feed to turbo.
Regards
Carl
Title: lets talk intercoolers again...
Post by: Dr-Rotor on August 12, 2008, 11:18:32 PM
Quote from: Carl;523962We run GT35r\'s on out V mounts.
T78\'s too!
Biggest turbo we have run on the 13b on the road is a GT42r so far,but have been experimenting bigger on other engines with the GT47.
Regards
Carl

Whats the highest power figure you have achived on a GT35R setup with those V setups? What dyno?
Title: lets talk intercoolers again...
Post by: Dr-Rotor on August 12, 2008, 11:20:11 PM
Nice setups Carl....very nice.
Title: lets talk intercoolers again...
Post by: Carl on August 12, 2008, 11:21:37 PM
Around 450hp on Dastek dyno.
Lowish boost though.
Regards
Carl
Title: lets talk intercoolers again...
Post by: Carl on August 12, 2008, 11:22:22 PM
The pics may get removed as I am not a vendor on here.
So if a mod is looking remove them if they are a problem.
Reagrds
Carl
Title: lets talk intercoolers again...
Post by: Carl on August 12, 2008, 11:23:04 PM
Air from rad goes down and through lower part of engine bay.
Title: lets talk intercoolers again...
Post by: Dr-Rotor on August 12, 2008, 11:41:21 PM
Quote from: Carl;523970Around 450hp on Dastek dyno.
Lowish boost though.
Regards
Carl

Thats good power....at the wheels right? not converted to fly wheel.
What sort of dyno is it...hub or roling road? Mind if ask what ramp rate you use?
 
I will have to design a personal setup for my FD. My bonnet would totaly stuff a v setup as the front vent would create a high pressure area over the top of the IC. Im going to just set it back & make some ducting for the oil coolers. If the temps still get hot then I will be forced to go V.
 
Thanks for your input Carl...much appreciated.
Title: lets talk intercoolers again...
Post by: Carl on August 13, 2008, 08:46:49 AM
Wasn\'t the Dastek dyno,got it wrong it ws on a Dyno hub dyno.
The power was flywheel conversion.
We have had alot more power than that on other setups with bigger turbo\'s on pump fuel with no water injection,but with the water you can clearly make some big power.
Reagrds
Carl
Title: lets talk intercoolers again...
Post by: DRAGON on August 13, 2008, 09:40:12 AM
If people didnt believe some of this crap it would be funny.
Actions talk louder than words. But people seem to be won over by verbal diarrhea.
Darkside!! Should be \'Welcome to the deludedside\'
Title: lets talk intercoolers again...
Post by: hairyhoover on August 13, 2008, 11:29:33 AM
Morning Ross!! :eek
Title: lets talk intercoolers again...
Post by: Dr-Rotor on August 13, 2008, 08:44:55 PM
Quote from: DRAGON;523998If people didnt believe some of this crap it would be funny.
Actions talk louder than words. But people seem to be won over by verbal diarrhea.
Darkside!! Should be \'Welcome to the deludedside\'

If you dont have anything nice to say, why say anything at all?
Title: lets talk intercoolers again...
Post by: DRAGON on August 14, 2008, 08:20:36 AM
Quote from: Dr-Rotor;524181If you dont have anything nice to say, why say anything at all?


Ok I\'ll do that if others abide by the Rule, If you dont have anything TRUTHFUL to say, why say anything at all?
Title: lets talk intercoolers again...
Post by: Dr-Rotor on August 14, 2008, 09:42:04 AM
What have we said in this thread that is not truthful? I do not understand your point of view as to what we have been talking about in this thread being a lie.
 
If you would kindly give us an example perhaps I would understand what it is that you are on about.
Title: lets talk intercoolers again...
Post by: logicalChimp on August 14, 2008, 09:47:46 AM
Quote from: DRAGON;524271Ok I\'ll do that if others abide by the Rule, If you dont have anything TRUTHFUL to say, why say anything at all?

Hi

I have to admit that, as someone with a stock RX, I found this thread quite interesting.  If you feel that some parts of it are inaccurate, please add your own viewpoint, and contribute to the thread, rather than just sniping from the sidelines!

cheers
Title: lets talk intercoolers again...
Post by: karl_tate on August 14, 2008, 05:19:52 PM
i would also like to know what you meant ross??

sooo....

does some one want to point me in the right direction for an intercooler suitable for V mount for a single turbo setup  :Thumbs-up
Title: lets talk intercoolers again...
Post by: Dr-Rotor on August 14, 2008, 08:44:16 PM
Id say go with Carls setups. Not sure how far apart you guys are from eachother but perhaps you could get a nice setup from him. Or just buy the cooler & build your own setup.
 
The Jap ones are very very expensive...well for me anyway as our NZ$ is not as strong as the pound. Perhaps it may be cheaper for you guys. If so order a V-mount from RE-Amemiya or R-Magic or Pan-Speed....HEHE dont think you will have any luck with Fujita Eng though.
 
Id love to go there some day with an interpretor and ask FEED why they still use FMIC.