what kind of intake tempurates is everyone getting with this warm weather either SMIC, V Mount, FMIC or other
ive got a RE-A SMIC and my temps were in the mid to high 30\'s in town driving.
not sure what im going to do to resolve this at the moment and just trying to get a few ideas of which route to go but (there is always one :2Confused) it needs to be cheap :Giggle
that is suppose to read 40\'s not 30\'s :o
Im running standard setup with stock IC and seeing around mid 40\'s too when on the move... Heat soak at the minute is a real problem due to front Pre-CAT still on car and standard bonnet etc... When been driving and leave it for 10 mins once stopped my water temps according to the Apexi are around 117 and Intake at about 70!!
I\'m consistently getting about 10 degrees above ambient for the air temp with an XSP SMIC in a v-mount configuration. Water is steady in the low to mid 90\'s :)
Highest i\'ve seen so far is 64 for the air temp whilst queueing at a track day.
hot day am seeing around 35deg once heat soak has set in takes a while to drop but planning water inj to sort this..not to tune for it just to bring intake temps down..just when u want a quick burst if u have sat at lights the intake temps need controlling to keep safe..running v mount
V mounts arent all they are made out to be!
If you look at a lot of the big boys they run Front mounts. There seems to be a lot of hype about these V-Mounts, but when I went to NZ they all ran Front mounts, and they\'re running big HP and in ambient temps of 35 degrees
Brunswick run a front mount, and despite running a V-mount for the last 3 years...we have now moved to a big Front Mount ourselves. The trick is getting the core right, the spacing betweeen the intercooler and the rad, and making sure they are enclosed.
The inlet temps out on track last year were anything from 12 degrees to 30 degrees. Anymore than 38 degrees and you run the risk of det.
I\'m running a blitz front mount and during a long drive yesterday intake temps where mid 20\'s also have a scoot bonnet to help release the hot air & water inj to help keep the temps down while on boost!
for track work the front mount is great as its getting cool air immdtly
on the road the rad will struggle to get good cooling
v mount on the road water temps are more stable as the rad suffers less heat soak but heat soak takes time to leave the icooler so water inj imho is a must
i have had f/mount/c/cooler and v mount
for first time ever my water temps are under control the trade off has been intake temps
with front mount never more than 25deg
charge cooler-crap
v mount hot weather about 35deg but water should take the edge off that
nearly all cars use a f mount icoolwer when upgrading but all depends what u are using ur car for
for the road i would go v mount with water
any track/drag f mount
forget charge cooler its a croack of **** imho
look at any subaru/supra/lancer they all use front mount because their water temps arent an issue
i whacked a front mount on a p1 and the water temps never changed by a single degree
i understand the re worx monster v mount has had some good results with both intake and water but looks tight for getting a filter on the turbo if ur running a turbo up near the water filler point/not a prob for those running the t51 though
radtec monster v mount also looks good value and should produce some good temps but once again not sure about getting a filter on the turbo
happy with my set up for the street just need that water to control thing after the heat soak has set in
As said get the right design of fins on the intercooler and you wont have a problem with ideal speeds. We have to ensure the car doesnt over heat whilst out on the grid, and you can be stood for up to 5 minutes.
Without wishing to start a debate on WI Im not of the opinion it works that well. There are pro\'s and con\'s for it....but we have decided to go for a spraybar direct onto the intercooler and test that.
The biggest problem we had with running a V-Mount last year was we got taken off the track, and ended up on the grass. That was the end of our race, as it acted as a lawn mower, and we pulled 3 buckets of grass from within the V-Mount.
thats what i was getting at on the track the f/mount is ideal as the air pressure is sufficient to cool the intake and still do a job on the rad
my old f mount was good on cruise low intake and 89deg water but water used to rise rapidly at low speed ie around town..on gentle cruise ie 30-40 water temps are stable at 85deg with v mount
the use of water in my case it strictly for after sitting at lights to take the sting out of the intake and ward off det not as a tuning tool which is a different kettle of fish as am planning for it to come on early at about .6 bar
totally agree for track work front mount or huge v mount is best
at the end of the day its all about what use the car is for and the trade offs
Cant comment about slow town crusies.....Its a bugger to get over speed humps our car! And my foot is planted to the floor for 80% of the race!
When we get the new rads, I will be running a number of logging to check out our design.
We are going to log inlet temps and pressures at 3 points.
Inlet temp in the air box
Inlet temp and pressure on the inlet to the intercooler
Inlet temp and pressure on the plenum
We will be able to accurately chart how efficient the intercooler will be through reducing the temp coming out of the turbo, and also see what the extent of the pressure loss is over the system.
Jeez, I didn\'t realise you could get det from air being too warm as well as running too lean. :(
I do trackdays so heatsoak is likely to affect me during the summer (only done days when it\'s cool so far) - what are the safe limits for intake temps? (Car is running stock boost on twins, mapped to 310bhp with an ARC SMIC).
Its more of a by product.
The density of the air will reduce with temperature, this will cause the engine to run lean.
The idea of a turbo, in layman\'s terms, is to add more air into the engine. This is done through compressing the air and making it denser....however heat has the detriment effect and will reduce the density ratio. So turning up the boost might not have the effect you think it will.
thats why in cold weather the turbo car will be more responsive than in warm weather..hence a good water injection syst is not a power booster just a safety device that can be adapted to give better gains on higher boosts beacause of its ability to cool the air making it denser..bit like me:rollin
even better a cold and moist morning!!!
No sniggering at the back Jenkins!
Running V Mount and havent seen over 21 degrees in mine
yes the reworx v mount certainly is a monster and with the t51 no prob with space..looks slightly mor crowded if running a gt3540 but certainly cant argue with thos figures that is a very good intake temp..ash did u fit it yourself???
getting 30-35 air intake and 80-84 water in this weather with an apexi gt fmic :InLove
Quote from: rx7veilside;497817yes the reworx v mount certainly is a monster and with the t51 no prob with space..looks slightly mor crowded if running a gt3540 but certainly cant argue with thos figures that is a very good intake temp..ash did u fit it yourself???
No RE;Worx fitted it luckily :chat
any pics ash
interesting opinions
think i will try a V mount setup as its mostly street use but will be doing a track day or two and drag strips.
will look into WI as a safety as well,
any one have any experiences with Co2 sprays??
can see IC but no rad here http://www.fduk.org/forum/showthread.php?t=9536
how much did it cost incl fitting u cant txt answer to 07872931643:)
already on car so didnt have to pay :-)
im on front mount and my temps 30to 42 round town as low as 15 on a run
I\'m running a V-Mount and on average I\'m seeing about 3 degrees above ambient temp at speeds abouve 30 mph!! & I have also noticed that if you trundle away from traffic lights etc, the temps take a while to drop, but if you spool the blowers up a little it drops in a few seconds!!
Jono
Greddy FM and koyo rad, mid 30\'s in this weather, but if you park the car and come back the heat soak will take a while to come back down. Water is lovely never above 85
Hks fmic temps were 27-30 yesterday, water temp never above 90. All depends on fin design of ic (does it allow air to pass through), area of ic blocking rad, space between rad and fmic and ducting. I was going to add ducting around my rad but don\'t think I need to now.
Intakes on Greddy SMIC are usually round the 35 degrees (without using wi) although the standard ducting is pretty poor so am looking into resolving this. Also the radiator sits directly underneath the HKS RS intake so looking to get some alu sheet and help shield the heat.
I do have a Scoot bonnet so when I park up and come back it is a lot cooler than it was before I fitted it. Quite funny parking up and seeing a heat haze coming from the vents lol.
With the water injection switched on (double unit, 1st jet coming on at just over 0.1bar and the second at 0.6 it quickly cools the temp down 10 - 15 degrees. Thats providing you are giving it a just at those boost levels for a good 1 min period. If you only give it a quick 10 sec burst it cools it down a couple of degrees, I usually put it in 4th once going about 25 mph and put my foot down so the car doesnt speed up too quickly.
Going to try some methanol this summer to see how much difference that makes.
The main killer with the FD is sat in traffic, I pray when going anywhere there isnt an accident etc and we get stuck !!!
Interesting hearing about the V-Mounts, I was looking at changing to one of these at some point. Might go the FMIC route instead.
stock IC with HKS Suction Racing Kit, intake temp today was as high as 47c but while driving was around 37c, water was never over 80C, time to upgrade to a better IC
Regards,
Michaelb
OK, but to answer my question - what is a "dangerous" intake temp for stock boost!?
Quote from: scratchies;497830im on front mount and my temps 30to 42 round town as low as 15 on a run
Lol, not in this weather it wont be!! When running air-to-air transfer it can\'t be colder than ambient conditions, thats impossible.... :)
As Lockwood77 says. i\'d also like to know whats "safe" for stock twins and stock boost ???
Are these temps accurate aswell, as we know that the air sensor is within the plenum so coud this suffer heat soak?? Has anyone got temps from just after the intercooler ?
the sensor does suffer heat soak like anything, not too sure on its accuracy when it says X temp from when you have been sitting in traffic to when you have set off.
is the standard rad up to its job and sufficient enough for a V mount set up??
Quote from: gmogle;498008Interesting hearing about the V-Mounts, I was looking at changing to one of these at some point. Might go the FMIC route instead.
I wouldnt believe everything you read. I think V mounts are the best soution to the problem.
Thinking possibly isn\'t the best use of evidence however. I\'d hate to see a good research scientist use evidence of \'I think this will work\'
:D
Hmm well my FC is running the stock top mount and I can sometimes see the shimmer of heat venting fron the intake on the bonnet when in traffic for a bit lol *sigh* lol
its quite simple a fmic will give good intake temps but placing anything infront of the rad will affect the cool air getting thru
some people say i never go above 82deg water even with a 10foot fmic but its because the tuner has prob changed the temp the fans kick in
the correct running temp for a rotary is anything between 80-85 deg for water this is ideal 85-90 is ok but not as good and the fans will come on more
the ideal situ is the v mount u get fresh cool air to the rad but will get higher than fmic air temp
simple solution get water injection use a small jet to atomise the water and use it just to control the intake on hot day as a safety net
its not rocket science if u put in a fmic it will not get the same volume of air to the rad if u get v mount u get the best of both worlds and with water can ensure intake is kept down
looking at various types prob the best way is having rad and i/cooler as a def v shape then u will get equal air to both but u will pay a penalty with no cool air getting to air filter
i have the hayward v mount and water temps are solid at 85/86 and hot day air temps after the first batch of heat soak 35 dropping to about 30 when getting going again with water this should drop back quicker
Quote from: nikp;498347Thinking possibly isn\'t the best use of evidence however. I\'d hate to see a good research scientist use evidence of \'I think this will work\'
:D
I say \'I think\' because its my opinion, based on driving and mapping hundreds of FDs. I cant say for sure, its just what I have found.
Bearing in mind I ran a front mount on drag car for all the time we ran it. However I would go V mount or good SMIC on a road or circuit car.
Reference the water Injection as a intake cooling tool, it is not the best for intake cooling, it is the best at combustion chamber cooling, 2 very different things.
What you should probably have said is "In my experience a V-mount is a better option"
Personally, I\'m not finding the temps particularly good. They\'re not bad, but not good either. However, i think that\'s because my turbo sit\'s very low down, and the top of the air filter is at the same level as the top of the rad, and sits behind it. So all the air filter gets is hot air being thrown at it from the radiator. I\'m going to try and fashion a plate to block off that hot air in the hope it might make a difference!
guess thats what i meant as the inlet temp sensor is slow to react but on a hot day that squirt of water should take the edge off the temp of the air entering the chamber
mapping for water is totally different just for controlling det imho a small jet should atomise enough water to ward of the det issue
fmic will allways give better intake temp but higher water temp
v/mount will give better water but POSS higher inlet temp
so of the 2 u cant alter water temp but u can alter inlet temp so it makes sense to use the v mount option and then work on ur inlet temp/combustion temp with water
i wouldnt boot a car that was showing above 40deg inlet temp
Quote from: rx7veilside;498529......
i wouldnt boot a car that was showing above 40deg inlet temp
Oh right :eek:
So when i\'m flooring it when it\'s saying 55 odd then thats not good lol....
Think mines always in the 40\'s to be honest....
I was told by my mapper not to boot it when it\'s over 50 degrees
when dealing with det u have to leave as big as possible safety net
at 50deg i wld say ur very near to the limit when u could safely boot a rx7
i wld be happy around 40deg and cautious at anything above this
the simple solution and by far the cheapest is water inj
this will take the edge or sting out of the tail by enought to prevent det
fmic/v mounts are all expensive options and my first port of call wld be water to help out in the summer(when we get it)
in the winter months i doubt anyone will have an issue even with a smic so if u can afford it have a v mount if not get water inj
Does anyone have an opinion on how effective spray bars are ??
rubbish at speed most of the spray will how we say spray away dont waste ur money get v mount if able if not get water inj
Was thinking about getting something like this and plugging the external temperature sensor into the intake \'before\' the UIM and after the intercooler to see what the temps are exiting the intercooler and then change it round in various locations to get some test readouts, i.e. after turbo, pre-intercooler, post intercooler, fresh air intake (in airbox)
Gotta be worth a tenner to get some figures i say :)
http://www.maplin.co.uk/Module.aspx?TabID=1&ModuleNo=34932&doy=13m5
prob struggle to get a airtight fitment and not really worth it just accept high intake means more chance of det so go for cheapest method to drop temp of intake charge and that would be water inj but not with a big jet or u need to start mapping with it
i think that clears alot of things up for people.
is the standard rad up to its job and sufficient enough for a V mount set up?? or is it trial and error??
Spray bars are perfect. If you run it properly then no loss of water....dont be so hasty to run a v-mount, get the right core in a front mount, seal it, and you will have a very good system.
Well I have the RE:WORX V-Mount set up and in this hot spell I\'m seeing water temps around 75-80 and intake on full boost below 25....so I\'m well happy. I also run mapped 50/50 meth/water --- W/I.
I have had this now for over a year and it\'s the nuts on track.
After 30 mins on and off full boost at Silverstone, Water temps about the same and intake temps just a bit higher, 30 ish.
Don\'t know how this compares with others who blast around tracks.
BUT I have modded my air filter intake as a Ram Air via the Scoot bonnet tunnel intake ( 4" intake pipe to the T 51). This gives me outside air and not under bonnet heat soaked air. HTH.
Hey guys, quick question - Can somebody explain why higher AIT\'s will cause an engine to run lean??
My (obviously flawed) understanding is higher intake temps lead to less air mass (obviously reducing power) but would make the car run richer...On a cold damp winters morning, when AIT\'s are lower than normal - isnt that when an engine is going to run leaner??
Cheers
John
The problem basically of running high inlet temperatures is detonation.
As the intake air increases in temperature the fuel/air mixture will be hotter and the hotter it is the less dense it is and this can lead to spontaneous combustion of the mixture i.e. not needing a spark, this is detonation basically...
Quote from: SmbFD3S;499050The problem basically of running high inlet temperatures is detonation.
As the intake air increases in temperature the fuel/air mixture will be hotter and the hotter it is the less dense it is and this can lead to spontaneous combustion of the mixture i.e. not needing a spark, this is detonation basically...
I think he understands that. But what he\'s correctly saying is that less dense air (because it\'s hotter) leads to less air into the engine, for the same amout of petrol, leading to a richer burn.
However, i think the reason HOT air can cause detonation is purely that: it\'s hot, and therefore can lead to the mixture combusting at the wrong moment due to the heat rather than a lean mixture. Maybe.
Quote from: nikp;499169I think he understands that. But what he\'s correctly saying is that less dense air (because it\'s hotter) leads to less air into the engine, for the same amout of petrol, leading to a richer burn.
However, i think the reason HOT air can cause detonation is purely that: it\'s hot, and therefore can lead to the mixture combusting at the wrong moment due to the heat rather than a lean mixture. Maybe.
Exactly, I miss-read a few posts on the 1st page. I thought they said that running lean was an issue with high AITs!
Thanks guys!
John
no ur more likely to run lean on a cold day
Quote from: nikp;499169I think he understands that. But what he\'s correctly saying is that less dense air (because it\'s hotter) leads to less air into the engine, for the same amout of petrol, leading to a richer burn.
However, i think the reason HOT air can cause detonation is purely that: it\'s hot, and therefore can lead to the mixture combusting at the wrong moment due to the heat rather than a lean mixture. Maybe.
Which is exactly what i said :)
So there are mixed opinions with all methods, sounds like I will have a crack at some ducting for the smic before forking out on anything.
NIKP which v-mount kit do you have ?
ATOMICREX you keep mentioning a \'good\' fmic intercooler, give us some examples or core sizes etc.
I will measure ours tomorrow
OK, dragging this one up again, went out today, only a short journey on suburban roads, saw 68c when getting back in the car after being parked up for half an hour! Couldn\'t get it to drop below 50c at 40-50mph. :(
Admittedly it wasn\'t a long journey, only a couple of miles, so I expect it would have improved if I\'d managed a constant 50mph+ for a few miles, but nevertheless...
This is with an ARC SMIC and ARC airbox - thinking the latter might be the problem as it\'s a big metal box absorbing heat. Any thoughts? Are these temps incredibly bad or just some way off good?
the temps are bad and i would not give it any sort of WOT which im sure you know.
they are always going to be high with round the town driving with a SMIC setup and this weather.
ive decided to go V mount as soon as i can afford to
No, I avoided any boost until I could get 50c or lower. Don\'t know if that\'s paranoid, correct or even dangerous...!
I have a C-West nose, so ideal for FMIC, just don\'t fancy all the hassle of moving stuff around and probably needing a better radiator. Plus my fuelling is approaching max on stock injectors (310bhp), so a better intercooler would also mean uprated injectors, mapping etc. - starts to get expensive!
Does additional ducting really make much difference to a SMIC? If so, anyone got any pics of theirs?
Was out in mine today too, and have SMIC and was seeing temps of around 45 stable, wouldn\'t really go below 42. I have the radiator fan switch mod, and i found that by turning this on and the a/c (which makes high speed fans and although the compressor\'s not actually plugged in) it dropped the temps to around 36.... and this was on the move, switching them off increased it again. From this i\'ve come to the conclusion that air is entering the "mouth" of the standard bumper when moving and bypassing the intercooler due to resistances and pressure differences and when switching the fans on this changes the direction of the air pattern, same can be said for rad temps, they are 3 degrees cooler with the fans on due to the standard fin design i\'m guessing and direction of airflow.
I still think by mounting a fan on the back of the SMIC it will "pull" air through the core and improve things greatly and will be experimenting with this.
I\'m also gonna do some air pressure tests (have a digital meter) to see where the air flows into the mouth of the bumper and then change things accordingly.
No doubt some people will have different views on what i\'ve said but i like to find out stuff like this :)
Although saying the above i didn\'t/don\'t take it easy whatever the temps were/are, as the saying goes "there\'s nothing in the manual about intercooler temps and not using WOT....." lol
I actually brought 2 fans for my SMIC but they where terrible (as in blades too slow) I was going to get some SPAL ones ordered but never got round to it in the end. I usually get around 28-32 deg summer driving with ReA SMIC and I have modified the standard IC ducting to fit :)
Yeah i\'m looking at SPAL fans at the minute and want to change the rad fans for these too...
Out of interest does anyone know what the flow in cfm or m3/s or whatever is through the intercooler at full boost on standard twins ???
Quote from: AtomicRex;498667Spray bars are perfect. If you run it properly then no loss of water....dont be so hasty to run a v-mount, get the right core in a front mount, seal it, and you will have a very good system.
When you say "seal it" do you mean use an airbox type construction?
I\'ve got a big FEED IC and just sits right behind the bumper....
how/where do I fit an intake temp sensor? what do I fit?
:god
Been meaning to do this for ages, especially as my twin intakes sit behind all the IC and rad stuff :Hammer
Does the apexi hand controller give you these figures?
Still not got one, anyone got a cheap one going spare?
Yep, the APEXI hand controller can display the intake temp. If you\'re interested in this, then I would advise in getting a speedy temp sensor to go with it: the standard Mazda affair is woefully slow at reacting.
When we did track time at Silverstone JTS the other day, after 20mins of full boost on wot my Intake temps as I came off were 23.8 degs and I managed to nail all but one Skybus. The only reason I didn\'t get him or the Supra was we ran out of time.
RE:WORX V Mount does work.:Thumbs-up
Quote from: nikp;507056Yep, the APEXI hand controller can display the intake temp. If you\'re interested in this, then I would advise in getting a speedy temp sensor to go with it: the standard Mazda affair is woefully slow at reacting.
Yeah and it\'s location means it suffers a fair bit from heat soak... Moving it to the intake elbow would reduce the heat soak considerably
Would be good to know a bit more about the percentage/time the stock sensor is out due to heatsoak - that way you could factor in the likely "real" situation, e.g. heatsoak from being parked up for half an hour = 60c from the sensor, but five mins of driving afterwards might mean a reading of 55c but a real temp of 48c or whatever.
I guess you can\'t really do that though, as it depends on the speed you\'re driving, ambient temp etc.
Quote from: lockwood77;507070Would be good to know a bit more about the percentage/time the stock sensor is out due to heatsoak - that way you could factor in the likely "real" situation, e.g. heatsoak from being parked up for half an hour = 60c from the sensor, but five mins of driving afterwards might mean a reading of 55c but a real temp of 48c or whatever.
I guess you can\'t really do that though, as it depends on the speed you\'re driving, ambient temp etc.
What you need is an independant stand alone sensor in the intake airflow with a rubber seal so it\'s not affected by heat soak so you can see exactly what the temperature of the air is. I\'m currently looking for one that will do the job so i\'ll let you know :)
something like this but not sure what type of gauge you would need??
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/AEM-Air-Inlet-Temperature-Temp-Sensor-Kit-AIT_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp1638Q2em122QQcategoryZ33598QQihZ009QQitemZ190227246362QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWD2V#ht_500wt_0
I\'m beginning to think my OEM sensor is a bit duff - today in traffic the PFC reported 50c+ then dropped almost immediately to 45c then back up again a few seconds later. At another point, it dropped remarkably quickly too without any great travelling speed.
Oh, the rad fans don\'t appear to make any difference to my intake temps (but they certainly get that water temp down! :) )
Quote from: lockwood77;506844This is with an ARC SMIC and ARC airbox - thinking the latter might be the problem as it\'s a big metal box absorbing heat. Any thoughts? Are these temps incredibly bad or just some way off good?
I run the same air box with stock IC and finding i get 45+ in this weather. If it goes over 60 takes ages to get them temp back down even at 70mph on the m-way. I\'m going to modify the stock air ducting more to the box and make a barrier to try and keep the hot rad air getting to it. I may also raise the back of the bonnet to try and increase the air flow.
Yeah, it\'s a struggle to get it out of the 40s in the daytime. You\'re right about taking ages to get the temp back down too!
Quote from: SmbFD3S;507076What you need is an independant stand alone sensor in the intake airflow with a rubber seal so it\'s not affected by heat soak so you can see exactly what the temperature of the air is. I\'m currently looking for one that will do the job so i\'ll let you know :)
I\'d be REALLY interested in what you find out.... been meaning to sort this out myself too for ages. :yes
I brought an additional sensor too which I was just going to run to see the difference from the stock one. I was going to plumb it into the plastic elbow being that plastic is a better insulator than the metal UIM.
Never did fit it though! :Giggle
Just thought I\'d stick in my 2p worth
I\'ve got an Re:Worx V-mount and it is one of the best mods I\'ve made to the car.
I used to have a Blitz LM FMIC and although intake temps were not a problem, water temps would go up to 105 degrees on track.
With the Re:Worx V mount water temps are never over 90 degrees and I\'ve yet to see intake temps over 30. It\'s a top kit.
how much does it cost as it doesnt say on the site.
also any one got any pics of the setup??
Quote from: RedRummy;507223I\'d be REALLY interested in what you find out.... been meaning to sort this out myself too for ages. :yes
Am thinking of hooking up something like this:-
http://www.maplin.co.uk/module.aspx?ITAG=SPEC&ModuleNo=3261&doy=12m6#spec
Quote from: SmbFD3S;507628Am thinking of hooking up something like this:-
http://www.maplin.co.uk/module.aspx?ITAG=SPEC&ModuleNo=3261&doy=12m6#spec
Have bought this so i\'ll do some playing about and let you know what it\'s like, only 15 quid odd so worth a go :)
That looks good. Very similar to the one I brought but this one has a clock and I dont have one in the car at all which can be annoying! :Hammer
I have noticed that the temps on this one go up to 69.8 deg c - I guess that after heat soak temps might be higher? Think this will burn out the unit or just remain at max temp until it comes down again?
Quote from: Ricco_04;507760That looks good. Very similar to the one I brought but this one has a clock and I dont have one in the car at all which can be annoying! :Hammer
I have noticed that the temps on this one go up to 69.8 deg c - I guess that after heat soak temps might be higher? Think this will burn out the unit or just remain at max temp until it comes down again?
If i put the sensor in the plastic elbow, it shouldn\'t get up to that temperature anyway and put some shielding around, i\'ll have a play when i get it. The highest i\'ve ever seen the standard one go up to on mine is 72 and it comes down pretty quick when you set off anyway and being as this is directly above the engine the "new" one shouldn\'t get anywhere near that :)
There is another one which might be just as good Ricco which is this and has a 3m flying lead for the external sensor:-
http://www.maplin.co.uk/module.aspx?ITAG=SPEC&ModuleNo=34932&doy=13m5#spec
is the ultimate aim to measure the tempurature of the air entering the air filters enroute to the turbos, or...... somewhere in the intercooler (pre- or post-cooling?)?
What is the best indication of intake temps?
presumably, you ideally want to know the temp of the air *JUST* before it gets into the engine?
Quote from: RedRummy;507796is the ultimate aim to measure the tempurature of the air entering the air filters enroute to the turbos, or...... somewhere in the intercooler (pre- or post-cooling?)?
What is the best indication of intake temps?
presumably, you ideally want to know the temp of the air *JUST* before it gets into the engine?
I think you\'ve asked the important question really! Is putting the sensor in the elbow really worth doing? Is it seeing a realistic temperature, or is it the equivalent of putting the sensor in a bucket of ice and saying \'Look how cool my intake temps are!\'.
I\'m keeping my sensor in the manifold, as Mazda put it there for a reason!
Surely intake temps are just that?
Temperature of air as it inters the intake of the car, we don\'t really care how hot the air is until it enters the engine, those figures are meaningless.
The air as it enters the engine wants to be as cool as it can be. So the opposite really: we want to ideally knwo what the temp is as it goes into the engine - not what it is further up the intake.
If we have 10 degrees going into the intake, but due to heat soak (For example) it\'s actually 30 degrees going into the engine, then that is the all important temp that we know we want to cool down. If we saw 10 degrees we wouldn\'t be thinking "I need it cooler than that" becuase it would be nice and cool anyway. But it is a false figure.
That\'s my opinion anyway.
Quote from: nikp;507808I think you\'ve asked the important question really! Is putting the sensor in the elbow really worth doing? Is it seeing a realistic temperature, or is it the equivalent of putting the sensor in a bucket of ice and saying \'Look how cool my intake temps are!\'.
I\'m keeping my sensor in the manifold, as Mazda put it there for a reason!
Why would it not be seeing a realistic temperature??? It\'s in the airstream, ok so the manifold when warm may add say 5 degrees, but thats about it! If the factory sesnor suffers heat soak on the move then obv this is giving false readings, but being as no-ones done a test (that i know of) then no-one knows...
So:-
To clarify, i\'m not changing, removing or doing anything with the Mazda Sensor it\'s staying where it is.
I\'m doing some research for my own benefit to see what the car is doing and how air enters the engine from start to finish. Therefore it will go like this:-
I\'ll put the sensor in the airbox say for a month and monitor the temps of the sensor and the ambient temperature, this way i\'ll know whether i\'m getting 100% fresh air or some "engine bay air"
I\'ll then put the sensor as close to the engine as possible in the air-stream i.e. the plastic elbow and do the same monitoring and compare this with the mazda factory sensor, this way i\'ll know if the Mazda factory sensor suffers heat soak when on the move.
Ok i know this isn\'t 100% accurate but it will give me an idea of where i can improve on getting the temperature\'s lower, and i\'ll also know after start and stopping the car how quickly the intercooler recovers from heat soak as the new sensor is a hell of a lot faster reacting than the stock.
The new sensor is not connected to ECU\'s and is stand alone obv therefore can\'t do any damage, it\'s merely something to check.
I\'m not interested in getting V Mounts, FMIC\'s etc etc and will be keeping the standard setup albeit with a couple of improvements, mainly being exhaust, Apexi PFC which are already fitted, so will have the SMIC still, not interested in big big power at this time and just want to enjoy the car as it is but like to learn along the way and try to improve reliability, which is the reason for doing this...
sounds good, some decent monitoring will only help inform :)
I need to monitor intake temps, cos my engine bay is a bit crowded and I\'m sure the air going into the filters is hotter than it should be...
The guys above quoting air temps, where are you measuring from?
Quote from: RedRummy;507895sounds good, some decent monitoring will only help inform :)
I need to monitor intake temps, cos my engine bay is a bit crowded and I\'m sure the air going into the filters is hotter than it should be...
The guys above quoting air temps, where are you measuring from?
I assume they are getting their temps from the Apexi mate so standard sensor location under the UIM... Thats where mine are taken from at the moment :)
Quote from: SmbFD3S;507076What you need is an independant stand alone sensor in the intake airflow with a rubber seal so it\'s not affected by heat soak so you can see exactly what the temperature of the air is. I\'m currently looking for one that will do the job so i\'ll let you know :)
My temps are from a SPA twin read Intake and Water temp gauge and independant sensors. HTH.
Quote from: SmbFD3S;507946I assume they are getting their temps from the Apexi mate so standard sensor location under the UIM... Thats where mine are taken from at the moment :)
cool, thanks
Quick update, i\'ll post a better one and some pics or something once a bit more testing has gone on.
Fitted the sensor into the plastic elbow as near to the throttle body as i could without the TB actually affecting the sensor. Also did some airflow test in the elbow pipe to see how the air flowed through it so i could position the sensor to get the best flow across it.
So after fitting everthing back together i left it for a couple of hours to settle down.
Turned the ignition on to read the Commanders temp readin (not started the car yet) and it read the same to within 0.5 degrees as the new sensor so that was nice :)
Took the car out for a couple of hours and monitored everything. Now the new sensor changes every 1 second while i think the Factory sensor actually changes every 10 or so so much better monitoring can be achieved with the new sensor.
Everything going fine, water temps up to 84 as normal, doing 70, little boost used at this point and the commander is reading 26 the same as the new sensor. Now for a little play, come to a roundabout and floored it through 2 to 4th. It really is amazing you know how much compressed air heats up!!! Sensor went from 26 ish to 42 pretty damn quick, the Commander read 35 at this point, let off and cruised a bit at 70, new sensor reducing quickly to around 32, commander still reading 35.
Got home and left it to have dinner. Went back out and to no suprise due to heat soak, Commander was reading 74 degrees, the new sensor reading 54.6...
The next bit is the suprise. Started the engine and the new sensor started to fall very quickly, commander still on 74, drove off with the commander on 74 and the new sensor on 46. 5 mins up the road the commander has dropped temps reading to 57, new sensor on 38. After about 10 mins of driving on open roads, the commander was saying 43 and the new sensor back down to around 27 so guessing the heat soak never really goes once the UIM has got warm.
Also it\'s quite suprising just how fast the intake temp rises when sat in traffic, and the heat soak effects on the Intercooler, guess this dont matter what IC you have. Spray Bar/Water injection/Fan is bound to help this tho...
Just thought i\'d share my experiment/experiences with you guys. :)
Nice, good write-up mate. Sounds like what we expected is the case - heat-soak takes much longer to get rid of than it actually takes to cool the air in the system down, and there is a lag between what\'s really going on and the PFC reading (in both directions, e.g. your new sensor reading higher than the PFC after boosting).
Thanks for posting up the results :cheers
Well, on track at Silverstone last night (GP circuit) I managed to see 65C at one point! That was going round the track, not heat-soak... :(
Didn\'t take long to get it back down, but I have to say I was boosting into the 50s a lot of the time as keeping it below 50 would have meant about one lap at a time! :rolleyes:
Car didn\'t seem to mind, it\'s conservatively mapped as far as I know, although whether that makes any difference to likely det due to intake temps I don\'t know. :?
So, something needs to be done, cos it wasn\'t even a hot day yesterday - water injection here I come I think, got to be the cheapest/least hassle method and I don\'t feel the need for any more power at the moment (although I do have a C-West nose, so front/V-mount is perfectly possible...)
Just to give some insight to what I have learnt from similar experiences with my LS1 FD.
I have the oem intake temp sensor built into the intake elbow just before the throttle body and have been suffering what I would describe as heat soak. The problem with the LS1 ecu is that should the sensor report too high a temperature the ecu cuts timing (not good). From some research it seems that the sensor can give false readings for a couple of reasons.
1) The standard thermistor is slow to react to temperature changes.
2) It suffers from heat soak due to it\'s mounting which retains the heat of it\'s surroundings.
Both of these factors make the ecu believe and adjust for a hot air charge when there may not be.
From what I have read on other forums it seems there are a couple of thing you can do to alleviate this problem.
You can swap the original thermistor for a faster reacting one (I have one on order) although in the case of a rotary fd you would need to find one compatible. (Just to give you an idea I got mine from here: http://www.omega.co.uk/ppt/pptsc.asp?ref=44000_THERMIS_ELEMENTS&Nav=)
Also you can insulate/isolate the surroundings of the thermistor with normal foil/foam etc as you would do anything else.
The guys in the US who have done this type of thing are reporting a much more stable and actuate readings and a much better place to start before trying to gain more performance with cold air feeds etc.
Quote from: Spartacus;510485...I have the oem intake temp sensor built into the intake elbow just before the throttle body and have been suffering what I would describe as heat soak. The problem with the LS1 ecu is that should the sensor report too high a temperature the ecu cuts timing (not good)...
Actually, it is good to retard the timing when temps get too hot. It\'s for safety (To help preserve the egnine). But it\'s not good for power. So that\'s another reason why we want cool temps: to stop the ignition from being retarded (Same for any type of engine)
Quote from: nikp;510489Actually, it is good to retard the timing when temps get too hot. It\'s for safety (To help preserve the egnine). But it\'s not good for power. So that\'s another reason why we want cool temps: to stop the ignition from being retarded (Same for any type of engine)
I agree but the point I was making is that the temperature readings from the thermistor are not the readings of the air temperature, which is not good.
You need accurate reporting of intake temps before you can start to look into a colder feed.
Quote from: Spartacus;510492I agree but the point I was making is that the temperature readings from the thermistor are not the readings of the air temperature, which is not good.
You need accurate reporting of intake temps before you can start to look into a colder feed.
Very true. Agreed.
Quote from: Spartacus;510492I agree but the point I was making is that the temperature readings from the thermistor are not the readings of the air temperature, which is not good.
You need accurate reporting of intake temps before you can start to look into a colder feed.
As i proved also with my little experiment :)
I am currently looking for replacement thermistor also with faster reacting times and i know there was a guy on here using a Triumph one so i am going down the bike route also, as these will inevitably need to be faster reacting due to higher rev\'s....
So which is a direct replacement?????????
See this thread:-
http://www.mazdarotaryclub.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26579
Whilst on the subject of intake temps, my mrs and I went to Thorpe Park yesterday in her Polo. We got stuck inevitably on the m25 and we did 7 miles in 40 mins !!! It got me thinking about the Rex, if I was stuck in this traffic jam I dread to imagine what the intake temps would be, I went out today in Norwich and got stuck and saw 45 degrees after 10 mins.
But more importantly I was thinking about what would fare better....a v-mount or a FMIC in traffic ?
Also I found an old article in Banzai with a Dragon Performance pink FD in it, the car had a custom v-mount with a radiator that was 30% smaller than standard. What would happen to water temps being stuck in traffic with one of these ?
Is this a stroke of genius or just plane crazy. Heat rises so this is why the intercooler get heat soaked at slow speeds and in traffic. Now i understand there maybe problems with this idea due to airlocks in the rad system. But surely it makes more sence to turn the vmount set up upside down so rad at the top and intercooler at the bottom. Just a thought as there could be plumbing prob and air in the coolant system issue. But atleat this way the riseing heat is just going to vent through a vented bonnet and not soak your cooler on the way.
Quote from: nikp;510489So that\'s another reason why we want cool temps: to stop the ignition from being retarded
My engine is NOT retarded!
:Giggle
Is jonny f still doing the kit as his e-mail link in the old thread isn\'t working....
Quote from: Warthog;510678Is jonny f still doing the kit as his e-mail link in the old thread isn\'t working....
I dont know mate, there were a few of us who asked for the kit and he replied as you can see in the thread. I emailed him but if the emails not working then i dont know???
Just got back from filling my car up with BP Ultimate (cos the four shell garages i went to had ran out of VPower :reallymad ) £86 bleeding quid !!!!!!!
Heat soak after getting back in the car 76 degrees on factory sensor, 58 on the new one lol and 112 on water temp although water temp does come down instantly when starting the engine :)
Timmy made a valid point, and i myself have always wondered why the intercooler doesn\'t go at the bottom and the rad at the top on a V Mount setup???
So you havn\'t replaced the OEM Intake one just added a new sensor not linked to the ECU ( Which is what I have already done )
I want to replace the OEM one in the same place with one that is better than the OEM one.
No, at the moment i\'ve added a new stand alone sensor in the elbow just before the TB just to see what the factory sensor was doing.. I do want a new quicker sensor to replace the OEM one as basically it\'s crap and suffers from far too much heat soak and does not react quick enough...
Which is why i wanted the one that John F was offering... although i\'m fairly sure any sensor would do as long as it has similar resistance patterns to the OEM one, it would just be a case of mounting it, but this does not necessarily need to be in the OEM location....
Just reading through some threads about WI (don\'t want to spend too much, looks like Cooling Mist will do the job for me as a safety feature). I came across a similar thread about intake temps to this one, wondering what temps are safe:
http://www.mazdarotaryclub.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39557&highlight=water+injection
On there, it seems that into the 60s is OK and the PFC retards timing to compensate anyway (I assume depending on the map - mine\'s by Pip and as he\'s thought to be conservative, I presume that means plenty of fuel. Might ask him how he handles high intake temp settings).
So, if that\'s true, I don\'t really have a problem (some people in that thread talk about 80C+ intake temps!) - cooling will be better, but it\'s not such an engine safety issue as I\'m getting worried about.
Thoughts?
Lockwood if i remeber you run an arc set up. I\'ve just modified the stock airducting to supply air to the filter i would say it has made as much as 5degrees difference to air temp and the temps are droping alot faster too.
When I did my Ram Air Intake mod using my Scoot bonnet it dropped the temps 15 degs...no heat soak as outside air.
Quote from: Timmy;510850Lockwood if i remeber you run an arc set up. I\'ve just modified the stock airducting to supply air to the filter i would say it has made as much as 5degrees difference to air temp and the temps are droping alot faster too.
Sounds interesting mate, do you have any pics of it?
At the moment, my airbox is just sitting taking air from near the underside of the bonnet!
I am also thinking about better ducting for my standard mount ARC intercooler (and radiator for that matter) - would be interested in pics of anyone doing that too.
What material(s) do people use for this ducting? Needs to be reasonably heat-proof for the radiator I guess.
I guess most people use either ali or fiberglass :)
i was looking at the stock intercooler air feed the other day and no wonder we get such high temps, the opening is so small and restrictive.
i cut and chopped it around a bit and added some steel to the sides to blank it off and found that it would take a lot longer to get into the 30\'s when driving around town and when on the move at 60-70mph was getting as low as 26.
my air filter is sitting right above the rad and rad pipe so its bound to get alot of hot air as warthog proved by getting colder air so this is going to be my next move.
Just for comparison and peace of mind i fitted some hex risers to the hinges of the bonnet to act as bonnet raisers to see what the difference was. Raise it by approx 30mm.
Took the car out yesterday afternoon/evening and can honestly say they do work... no matter what anyone says to you they do work. The downforce of the front makes no difference to temps while moving so the raised bonnet doesn\'t cause any issues when moving and nor does it really help with cooling due to the low pressure created, however, when travelling at really low speeds or sat in traffic it really is quite amazing how long it now takes the temperature\'s to rise and doesn\'t suffer half the heat soak it used to, so am really pleased.
Basically i can\'t afford a vented bonnet as yet so this will be more than adequate until i can :D:D
Now that sounds like a most cunning and effective plan! Please elaborate on the hex risers...where from, how much etc.... ?!
Cheers Phil
Quote from: SmbFD3S;513605Just for comparison and peace of mind i fitted some hex risers to the hinges of the bonnet to act as bonnet raisers to see what the difference was. Raise it by approx 30mm.
Took the car out yesterday afternoon/evening and can honestly say they do work... no matter what anyone says to you they do work. The downforce of the front makes no difference to temps while moving so the raised bonnet doesn\'t cause any issues when moving and nor does it really help with cooling due to the low pressure created, however, when travelling at really low speeds or sat in traffic it really is quite amazing how long it now takes the temperature\'s to rise and doesn\'t suffer half the heat soak it used to, so am really pleased.
Basically i can\'t afford a vented bonnet as yet so this will be more than adequate until i can :D:D
Quote from: fil_auto;513627Now that sounds like a most cunning and effective plan! Please elaborate on the hex risers...where from, how much etc.... ?!
Cheers Phil
I just used some of these mate :-
http://www.orbitalfasteners.co.uk/product_detail.php?id=2377
The just cut some M8 Bolt down to the right length to fit in and some lock washers and you\'re good to go, took me about 15 mins :)
The advantage i have is that i work for an air conditioning company so didn\'t need to buy any, we have these in stock :D
Cool cool and thanks matey - something to look further into me thinks....:mmmm
Quote from: SmbFD3S;513637I just used some of these mate :-
http://www.orbitalfasteners.co.uk/product_detail.php?id=2377
The just cut some M8 Bolt down to the right length to fit in and some lock washers and you\'re good to go, took me about 15 mins :)
The advantage i have is that i work for an air conditioning company so didn\'t need to buy any, we have these in stock :D
Quote from: fil_auto;513642Cool cool and thanks matey - something to look further into me thinks....:mmmm
Just for your (and anyone else thats interested) this is what it looks like installed.
(http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x125/smb2200/My%20Car/DSC01299.jpg)
(http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x125/smb2200/My%20Car/DSC01300.jpg)
Not the prettiest thing in the world, but serves the purpose :D:D and dont look too bad to be honest...
fairplay mate, thanks for that, gives a good idea - doesn\'t look too bad and as you say serves the purpose most importantly! #;o)
Oh, your clock is 12 hours out on your sony ericsson dog n bone!! :Giggle
On reflection, that\'ll be unless you took the pics just after midnight this morning, which is prob more likey the case.... so apols for my flipancy!! #;o)
Quote from: fil_auto;514236fairplay mate, thanks for that, gives a good idea - doesn\'t look too bad and as you say serves the purpose most importantly! #;o)
Oh, your clock is 12 hours out on your sony ericsson dog n bone!! :Giggle
Lol yeah i never go bed before about 1am mate and always up at 7am always have been lol :D:D
Its just i thought about it at the time so decided to take a couple of pics... I see you notice the K800i phone pics then lol :D