I know for fact that taking an FC to 500bhp is alot cheaper then doing the same with FD.
Could anyone please provide short or long list of parts that would need to go on the car and modifications to the engine in order to get my FC to that kind of power.
I have only started to learn about tunning and I know it might be hard to do but I am planning on doing most of the work myself. This is not because of the money shortage but more for me to learn how to do it, so I would appretiate any advise or help I can get from MRC members.
Thanks
Maz13b
Big turbo
Large ports
Large fuel pump(s) & associated regulators etc
High flow injectors
Bigger ignition modules
Big intercooler
Water injection
Beefed up clutch
decent diff
Decent ECU (Microtech)
New loom
New cooling system (V mount with IC? Speak to AntnikUK)
etc
etc
lol I wouldnt say a lot cheaper, I would say the same cost
Thanks for the quick reply.
Big turbo would Greddy TD06 do the job?
Large ports bridge porting or street porting? any thoughts on where to get the template for that?
Large fuel pump(s) & associated regulators etc
High flow injectors
http://www.rx7store.net/product_p/extremefuel.htm would that be enough?
Bigger ignition modules Any links or name for this unit?
Big intercooler Greddy
Would Greddy 3 Row FMIC 86-91 RX-7 do the job?
Water injection ???
Beefed up clutch
got that
decent diff
got that
Decent ECU (Microtech)
which one? http://www.microtech-efi.com/category/1.html
New loom New engine loom? any thoughts on where to get that or easier to make a new one?
New cooling system (V mount with IC? Speak to AntnikUK)
will do
etc what else?
etc What else? :)
Thanks.
Sorry for so many questions :)
This whole concept is to learn how to do it. Money isnt an issue but at the same time I am trying to find the affordable way of doing this because this isnt the last fc I am planning to have.
TD06 too small, you need a T04R or T78
Speak to any of the big bhp guys on here, they will set you straight.
AntnikUK
Sadgoth
Blitzboy
etc
Plus the tuners :)
In regards to porting, get one Tuners on here or WGT,Reworx etc to port ya plates a lot easier and u will get results, a nice big street port will give porting for 500
I would say speak to chris at reworx he git his Fc to more than that at the fly i believe.....think it was about 450rwhp so about 540 fly
chris actually saw 600 fly, 500 rwhp, but i would suggest that his set up would not be suitable for someone with no experience.
It will cost you the same to do an FC as it will an FD as most of the parts you need will be FD.
The ignition should be ok if your coils are good, if not, get the coil packs that microtec supply. The microtec comes with its own engine loom.
I had 1680 cc secondary injectors, 550 primaries on an 044 pump with plenty of scope for more power.
It looks to me like you are tryin to buy off the shelf stuff. If so, you would be better off using an FD as you can buy off thr shelf items to get the power you want. With the FC you cant. There is a lot of fabrication of exhausts, downpipes, manifolds, V mounts,fuel rails etc. Nothing on my FC was bolt on for the FC. Everything was made to fit from something else.
To make sure you get the power, i would say go half bridge, but it can be done on a street port. I had 460 fly with a medium street port.
TD06 is too small
Mine should be seeing about 450 at the fly with a GT4088, and a big half bridge
Microtech wise, either the LT8s or the LT10s the 8 uses the stock coils the LT10s comes with uprated coils and a seperate ignitor module.
for that sort of power turbo-wise I\'d suggest like Blitzboy a T78 or a T04R (the R may not be enough) T88, T04Z or a T51KAI
Other things to look at, you\'ll need an FD water pump, Greddy Compression tube, You may find you have to use more FD parts in the inlet area to enable the level of flow for that kind of power. Have a chat with RX Motors as well, they have done a few big power cars FB,FC and FD
Does the FD water pump fit the 13BT front plate then?
not sure how Matt did it, but it is there and I still have a 13bT frontplate
Info stored for future reference ;)
Mine has been in the shop since last june, and just for parts alone. and most of them have been bought second hand or bought at mates rates ;) With a full rebuild and all the stuff has cost nearly £9000. im hoping for around the 500bhp mark.
It isnt cheap matey!!!!!!
Tony:
How come there are no tuning parts made for FCs with so many of them sold and why do we need to fabricate all the staff for it to work!!! I am a bit furious. I have 3 FDs coming from Japan at the same time as an FC and I could go with FD to make it 600bhp but tbh I dont want to. I have ordered RE Amemiya kit for FC and want to stick with it.
In terms of fabrication of FD parts.... how much diferent are they? I am sure that stuff like fuel lines and injectors would be more or less the same if not actualy the same but what about manorfault? Could I get the FD T78 turbo kit and fit it to the FC and would it involve a lot of modification???
Wouldnt it be just easier to put an FD engine in the FC?
Thanks to you all for taking your time answering my might be stupid questions :)
Maz
There is a fair amount of stuff available for the FC, but most of it is big money compared to the FD stuff you will need to look to the US, Australia, NZ and the big name tuners if you want a real idea of the cost ratios. Might be cheaper to import a 500bhp FC then tweak the body to your liking? :wave
Brett.
Where is the learn in doing that?
True - but you could take it all apart to see how the companents integrate as a whole :) That way you can also what you can improve, rebuild and generally ameliorate the whole package.
:wave
Agree but then I would need to take 2 cars apart to see what the diference is :)
QuoteI have ordered RE Amemiya kit for FC
Drool. are you planning on importing a few more FC bits? im always on the look out ;)
The fc waterpump is better than the fd so why would you swap?
rgds
Brian
This project sounds interesting....empty wallet coming to a pocket near you soon.....:eek
Quote from: bnaellis;494806The fc waterpump is better than the fd so why would you swap?
rgds
Brian
well it\'s older and the pulleys fit the narrow FC belts for a start.
not sure what this fd water pump swap is all about. the fd one turns the opposite way!
Ask the captain about it, he\'s the one who did the swap!
Quote from: antnicuk;494657I had 1680 cc secondary injectors, 550 primaries on an 044 pump with plenty of scope for more power.
I thought the microtech could only handle 4 injectors of the same size?? ((Happy to be corrected...))
It\'s going to be interesting to see how this all turns out, as the first gen is being made future proof with fuelling, ignition, etc, but I\'m not expecting to exceed £4k on the whole project, let alone just the power. I\'m mainly avoiding named brands unless I have to, so big savings there - will be interesting to see how they match up (ebay intercooler for £108 delivered vs PWR intercooler for £400, RC 1200 injectors for £140 vs Bosch 1200\'s for considerably more, etc), although the fuel lines are Aeroquip because (a) there\'s a distributer less than 3 minutes drive to advise me about it, and (b) I can\'t find this stuff much cheaper.
The bits that aren\'t going to be cheap seem to come down to the ECU (Microtech LT10s with coils and ignition module) cos it\'s just gonna cost that much, and LSD Diff, as I can\'t seem to find one cheap.
I guess the test will be in the tuning (don\'t hold your breath... *lol*), and the limiting factor (and huge money saver there) will be the engine that is stock S5 T2 (although a tuner in the states has got a confirmed +700hp on a non-ported motor - probably with a lot of expensive trickery too tho).
Good luck with your hunt, and I reckon general investigation on here, RX7club.com (http://www.rx7club.com) and AusRotary (http://www.ausrotary.com) should answer most of your questions - all three have been massively helpful to me, from 13Bt Waterpump on a 12A frontplate, to suspension, to turbo manifolds, to sunroofs. *grin* Become friends with the search function...
Quote from: Archbish;495071I guess the test will be in the tuning (don\'t hold your breath... *lol*), and the limiting factor (and huge money saver there) will be the engine that is stock S5 T2 (although a tuner in the states has got a confirmed +700hp on a non-ported motor - probably with a lot of expensive trickery too tho).
I wonder how long it made 700bhp for? :Talking1 :Giggle
Quote from: maz13b;494754In terms of fabrication of FD parts.... how much diferent are they? I am sure that stuff like fuel lines and injectors would be more or less the same if not actualy the same but...
Maz
FD injectors wont go into a FC - one is side feed the other is top feed - so thats a no no striaght away
you cant use the FD elbow on the FC ( or not that i have read )
i bet 80-90% of FD stock parts wont fit an fc to be honest ( thats just a guess so dont quote me !! LOL )
Stu
Quote from: Brett;495073I wonder how long it made 700bhp for? :Talking1 :Giggle
True... *grin*
I have written to pineapple racing shop and so far this is what I have got from them.
""The S5 motor can make 500hp, but you would be close to the limit of strength without doing a lot of work.
A special thick rear plate would help out and studding the motor is a good idea if you don\'t run the stronger
FD rotor housing.
If the motor is not strong enough you will keep breaking rear plates.""
This is going to be very interesting. I cant wait to see where its going and how much it would cost me.
Archbish: thats exactly what I am going to try and do... use none branded parts when I can and only buy something branded if I have to.
I dont understand why should someone pay £1k for V-mount intercooler from lets say HKS or Dragon performance when you get one for $500(thats the fact) delivered to UK.
Thanks
Maz13b
i dont see why anyone would spend $500 on an intercooler from USA when you can buy for £140 from UK that will do the job just fine :)
Bish, you are correct, but on my FC i used a power FC from an FD. I\'m using a Mtec on the kit car.
The back plate is a week point on the fc, some late series 5 engines had the stronger ones but they are like hens teeth. Prof broke his back plate with much less than 500 bhp. I strengthened by own plate by welding a support to it and it seemed to work ok.
Quote from: antnicuk;495087The back plate is a week point on the fc, some late series 5 engines had the stronger ones but they are like hens teeth. Prof broke his back plate with much less than 500 bhp. I strengthened by own plate by welding a support to it and it seemed to work ok.
True indeed - because the FC engine mounts are on the centre section, the engine can experience torque twist when accelerating hard, and the force is exerted through the dowels to the rear iron and out through the bell housing / gearbox. The twisting action can crack the dowel seat near the oil pedestal, and then you get a nice pretty oil leak !
Here\'s my thread of woe...
http://www.mazdarotaryclub.com/forums/showthread.php?t=40119&highlight=rear+iron
And an article on Rotary Resurection about this problem:
http://www.rotaryresurrection.com/2ndgen/tech_rear_iron_break.html
antnicuk: I was talking about V-mount intercooler and upgraded radiator for $500 delivered :)
Anyhow good point mate.
So I would need to check whether the back plate is reinforced or still reinforce it? Would reinforcement eleminate the problems in the future or just prospond them?
thanks
Maz13b
Quote from: Brett;495073I wonder how long it made 700bhp for? :Talking1 :Giggle
Read the story about the guy he is using a 13Bre motor from the cosmo in his FC which has massive intake ports anyway, the engine is also dowelled and pinned runs 35psi on race gas with a huge turbo, and its still running after doing various dyno pulls, he is going to the strip soon
35 psi???? Holy ****!! Anyone over here running more than half that??? (Intentionally anyway)
not on a FC, but Chris Impey they run around at 25psi in his FD, dont know what psi Dragon used to run at.
Im planning 22psi
Got a link for the FC with the COsmo lump?
There you go 769rwhp, I think all he did was port matched the primary ports same as the Turbo FC motor, secondaries untouched and used Turbo II housings I believe
http://www.rx7club.com/showthread.php?t=747542
I\'ll take two :D
Quote from: maz13b;495108antnicuk: I was talking about V-mount intercooler and upgraded radiator for $500 delivered :)
Anyhow good point mate.
So I would need to check whether the back plate is reinforced or still reinforce it? Would reinforcement eleminate the problems in the future or just prospond them?
thanks
Maz13b
Can you and Antnicuk elaborate a bit more on where you can get these intercoolers so cheap??
rgds
Brian
I would guess they\'re from the Bay of E... *grin*
Ebay - its a blessing I tell you! :Giggle
Quote from: BlitzBoy;495127There you go 769rwhp, I think all he did was port matched the primary ports same as the Turbo FC motor, secondaries untouched and used Turbo II housings I believe
http://www.rx7club.com/showthread.php?t=747542
Where the hell is his intercooler/cooler - the pipe goes off into the bulkhead !?
Brian,
in the few weeks check out mazdanetwork.co.uk. Well be selling them there soon.
Regards
Maz13b
Quote from: Prof;495175Where the hell is his intercooler/cooler - the pipe goes off into the bulkhead !?
Its a Chargecooler, the cooler Matrix has been installed in the passenger side of the dashboard
Quote from: Prof;495175Where the hell is his intercooler/cooler - the pipe goes off into the bulkhead !?
Think it\'s water cooled and under the dash!
lol I think I just said that Memski :rollin
pmsl didn\'t see your reply :D
Quote from: bnaellis;495138Can you and Antnicuk elaborate a bit more on where you can get these intercoolers so cheap??
rgds
Brian
I used the stock rad with an XS Power V mounted i/c, the 4" thick one. I found the stock rad was superb, even on the track in the summer, water temp would never go above 100 degrees. Driving the Ring in july when it was 33 degrees, my water temps peaked at 97. Thats measured by an Apexi commander.
Air temps were also very good.
A v mount with a rad for $500 sounds pretty good though, i just find it a pain getting stuff USA unless i really have to.
Quote from: maz13b;495177Brian,
Regards
Maz13b
are you signing up as a Vendor then?
Quote from: Archbish;495071I thought the microtech could only handle 4 injectors of the same size?? ((Happy to be corrected...))
...
From what I\'ve been told by Mazfix, that isn\'t
strictlytrue, but the changeover between the primary and secondary can be very difficult to map smoothly if you are using different sized injectors i suspect a fair amount of mathematical trickery is involved
I am not sure what you are asking Antnicuk. Is this MRC forum related question?
Our Company have suppliers who can supply them with the units for the prices I have specified. We havent got any of them in stock in UK but will be getting them soon if thats what you are asking.
Maz13b
I think he means if you become a trader on the forum then there is a fee to be paid to the club for the advertising and the market it gives you.
WHOOP WHOOP WHOOP thread hijack alert....
So anyway, 500hp in a 13bt... *grin*
na you want 13BRE for 500bhp in a FC, 13bt is soo old skool lol
hows the 1st gen Bish fired up the oldskool 13BT yet ? :D
I see. Well I aint selling anything yet and when I will do I will register as trade.
All I want is to get some knowledge on how to get the FC to 500+bhp
regards
Maz13b
Contact Timmy at RX Motors he may have a complete 13BRE, have it street ported, run either a T78,T04R,T04z at approx 1.2 BAR with all the supporting mods ECU,fuel and the like and you will get 500bhp.
If running at above 1BAR would recommend WI
Maz13b, if you wish to advertise on the forums please contact team@mazdarotaryclub.com
REgards
Team@MRC
88GTR who used to be on this forum runs a FC with 440 @ hubs at just under a 1 BAR which is just about 500, he only needs another 0.1 of a bar on the boost controller then he is well into the 500s.
His FC was featured in Banzai a couple of months ago, get a back issue for a few tips
I would love an RE but i recently paid £72 for a complete 13bt engine with all ancilleries. You are looking at £800 plus for a 13bre. Thats why i\'m using 13bt. I reckon there is only about 50 hp difference. I\'m not looking to squeeze as much out of as possible so 450 fly should be fine :) if you can afford 13bre then go for it.
Quote from: maz13b;495291I see. Well I aint selling anything yet and when I will do I will register as trade.
All I want is to get some knowledge on how to get the FC to 500+bhp
regards
Maz13b
U could just buy my complete 13bre cosmo engine package out of my fd and put it in your fc!!!!!!
Quote from: K1HKS arse;495429U could just buy my complete 13bre cosmo engine package out of my fd and put it in your fc!!!!!!
oi !! who asked you!:spank:spank you just keep your nose out and start running some 8s. I aint letting you pull that car apart until you have run it in anger, i dont care how big your are:Giggle:Giggle:Giggle
Quote from: antnicuk;495441oi !! who asked you!:spank:spank you just keep your nose out and start running some 8s. I aint letting you pull that car apart until you have run it in anger, i dont care how big your are:Giggle:Giggle:Giggle
Tony, would love to start running some 8\'s.
If i could find someone to chuck some money at it then i could im sure.
OR
I sell up and....
put a 350 small block with Wade supercharger/holley carbs in it and run 8\'s/9\'s with that :flamed and still drive it home.........
The FC has landed in the UK and coming to the workshop tomorrow.
After careful considiration I have decided to stick with the FC components and engine and try and take it as much to the limit as possible.
Will post some pictures, parts information and prices as I get along with the project.
Regards
Maz
yes yes.. this is old (ish thread) but i jus found it and makes an interesting read!
some say fc housing is ok for around 500bhp, others say fd housing is better..
anyone or consensus on which housing is better?
It\'s not so much the housings as the inlet runners and porting that\'s on the block.
The RE engine has larger ports - which means more air can be pushed in :)
There are guys running over 500 on a 13BT block on RX7club - but you will have to strengthen the engine with dowels and look to do something about the crazy way the engine is mounted in the middle iron - it means the whole of the back of the engine can twist against the gearbox/drive shaft on a hard launch - could contribute to cracking of the rear iron.
The FD engine mounts on the back iron - so it\'s better. Not sure on the RE - but I suspect it\'s the same.
Waterways in the FD are better, as is oil flow, so they make running higher horsepower easier for cooling - but that alone is no good if you don\'t have good oil flow and cooling outside the engine. And a big ass radiator with plenty of air flow around it for keeping your coolant cool.
will an engine damper thingie help with the back iron?
some intresting reading about 13bt 13bre
http://www.ausrotary.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=82
Quote from: L18M;588836will an engine damper thingie help with the back iron?
no, its weakness on the design of the back plate around the top dowel, there isnt enough metal around it as Prof found out.
I strengthened mine and it wasnt a problem. There were some very late engines with more meat around the dowel but they are like rocking horse ......
thanks for the input everyone :)
some interesting reads :)
Quote from: antnicuk;588855no, its weakness on the design of the back plate around the top dowel, there isnt enough metal around it as Prof found out.
I strengthened mine and it wasnt a problem. There were some very late engines with more meat around the dowel but they are like rocking horse ......
As Tony said - the newer plates are quite rare. I posted a thread up on it http://www.mazdarotaryclub.com/forums/showthread.php?t=40119&referrerid=4966
Luckily rotechiks found one of those later rear irons with both modifcations on it - and it was fine after that.
bit worrying about the rear plate as you were running about 300bhp ish =/
It\'s not really so much about power - but the torque you subject it to - it was a few hard launches - and don\'t forget the cab is that bit heavier so the transmission has to work a little harder to shift that extra weight. I\'d got more solid diff and rear subframe mounts in as well, and the engine mounts are a solid nylon design - so there is very little give in all that - means the power is going to find the weakest spot (usually between tyre and road)
It\'s an easy problem to spot - oil weeping out when the engine is running from under the oil filter seat - but not from the seat itself - literraly comes from the top of the iron where that bolt goes through.
In case you wondering the Difference between the FD 13B REW and the Cosmo 13B RE engines, good info here http://www.nopistons.com/forums/To-Cosmo-13b-Rew-Fd-t14153.html,
as Prof said REW is better in terms of hardened stationary gears, better bearings for oil flow , bigger exhaust ports etc, but RE better in terms of bigger intake port size (more meat on the plates also)
Thread revival!
Just curious about all this rear plate cracking malarkey - if said fc engine was mounted in an fb, thereby mounting from the front and having less weight, would that mean that cracking would be less likely to occur?
Good question - the problem with the FC is that the engine mounts are in the centre iron - so the twisting forces from the transmission are trying to twist the rear section of the engine. I guess with a front mounted 13B - the whole engine will receive the force - which is less likely to produce the same stress I would say - but not really sure. FD\'s mount at the rear of the engne - which I guess is the better location for high power engines.