Hey, i am really disapointed my hks t04r, with ported engine with 1600 cc injectors only made 375 fwhp! Am gutted :confused:. I went to dyno demon near chester. I had inlet temps of 70 degrees with a front mount intercooler. In my eyes they had the fan far to far away from the vehicle. All the way home my temps never went over 30 degrees.
Maybe the dyno was a rubbish one I have seen these portable jobbies give out dubious readings
Maybe, but it seemed a very good set up. Its a dyno dynamics rolling road.
We need more details
what boost are you running? who mapped your car?
On an old setup with a T04R at 1 BAR my car made 390rwhp which is around 460fwhp
Has it got an aftermarket ecu? Has it been mapped by someone who knows what they are doing? Just bolting on performance parts without having then setup on thesse cars doesn\'t work too well.
70 degree inlet temps will kill your power and your ingnition retarded due to it. 1 bhp for every degree of air temp plus your ignition makes a lot of difference.
The other thing to note is that your ecu is also not mapped to see 30 degree air inlet so wont be accurate.
Does it really make that much difference Tony? If so I think Water Injection has just been added to my shopping list!
Mind you, the 70 degree temps he stated must include quite a lot of heat soak? Actual intake temp would likely to be a lot lower I would of thought?
Quote from: antnicuk...1 bhp for every degree of air temp plus your ignition makes a lot of difference...
It is running 0.9 bar of boost, i have a apexi ecu and commander, greddy profec boost controller. It was mapped by a guy called colin at lindop motorsport.
There is some thing not right here. For a start if a tuner knows their cars and tunning ability then the first thing will look at the ambient temps, inc air, water, oil etc. Who would map a car on high intake temps and why?:rolleyes:
The figures from that turbo looks very low i was expecting round 400atw from your setup Mathew:rolleyes: :yes
Just a thought, but what is the size of your exhaust housing?
Regards
Jon
Even with a piddly 0,81a/r these make lots of power. I\'m sure the intake temps have a lot to do with it, but how many miles on the motor?
I think you need to take it to WGT in Cheshire matey for a remap,
any idea what afr you were getting on boost
Quote from: mattywhitthad inlet temps of 70 degrees with a front mount intercooler.
Was it this hot while tuning, or was that done before the dyno run(s)?
Thats frankly insane, I cant remember the last time we had a car any where near that hot on our dyno - and I think we\'d struggle to get a car that warm unless it was a 90 degree day in summer and the car was running a load of boost on stock turbos and intercooler...
I can tell you we wouldnt have continued running it while it was that warm tho.
Power-wise, depending on turbine a/r, I\'d expect a solid 350+rwhp from a T04R.
Quote from: \'M@r{\']Does it really make that much difference Tony? If so I think Water Injection has just been added to my shopping list!
As i said on FDUK, WI, Premix and a good tune is the answer, obviously not having 70 degree inlet temps is key also.
i get up to 70 degreees inlet temps but that is with stock IC and sitting still for long time. cruising temps are in the high 30s which is annoying enough and in light traffic high 40s which i hate.
did they not have a fan on it? it should be extremely powerful and keep the temps nice and low esp with a front mount.
It has done 1600 miles on a rebuilt engine. I will post pics up of the dyno print out later.
(http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj313/mattywhitton/033.jpg)
(http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj313/mattywhitton/032.jpg)
I am booked in at Wgt on the 11th of March:D
hmmm at 13psi that is too rich at mid tens afr therefore killing power along with the high temps you were having
Just noticed the AFR line even hits 10 and a very low ten towards the upper rpm WAY TOO RICH,
Should be shooting for 11s or just under when boosting just under 14 psi.
Also the timing on the map needs to be checked as if this is not right this will further kill power
They cant no what they are doing? Is it ok to run the car? Or take it gently? Will Pip sort me out? How much do you charge for a remap?
Pip at WGT will soon sort you out plenty of power to be released when he does the fuelling correct, you will probably release 70 bhp like Gandy did on our Dyno day last year when John and Wav tweeked his map he had lumpy rich fuelling as well
Is it ok to use? I dont want to damage it!
you can run the car fine as its rich and not lean, so take it easy dont WOT it otherwise u might foul the plugs too quickly.
Im all the way down in London plus I map on the raod and the roads are too cold for me at the moment to be safe lol
So Pips ya man he charges quite reasonable plus you car will soo much better when he is finished
Looks like it deffo needs a remap, a TO4R is a decent turbo unit on par with the T78 and making 450bhp @ fly is not unusual at all :Thumbs-up
Brian Ellis on a T04R made well over 500 fly a few years ago
So these turbos do rock
Cool thanks. He said £250 to map it. Would a t04z be much better? Or can i go bigger on a t4 flange?
Its street ported, will that help? How much boost did he run to get over 500?
Quote from: mattywhittCool thanks. He said £250 to map it. Would a t04z be much better? Or can i go bigger on a t4 flange?
I think the TO4Z is what Blitzboy runs on his FD :god
think hes on a t51r now!
Never mind the figures as long as its fun to drive:Thumbsup!
ssssshhh lol
I would stick with the R my man the Zed is good but you will only gain maybe an extra 20-30 bhp across the power line per same boost and quicker spool.
Brian ran the R up to 1.3 BAR to 1.4 BAR I believe
My R was rapid ran loads of 11s with that turbo
this is 0.8 bar on a T70 with large street port
(http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d8/strange_days_uk/hubdyno.jpg?t=1204360573)
I would expect to see something similar with your setep
he should be a touch less your turbine wheel is 70mm.... to4r is 66mm i believe.
is that flywheel figures mate?
what spec is your TO4, i reckon your main problem is that your hot side is way too small! your power is tailing off at 5k rpm but you are at max torque at a little over 3krpm. That indicates a hot side that is to small. What are the A/R\'s of the turbo. There is a no amount of fuel tuning that will sort that out! Are you sure its a TO4R not a TO4B
I am not sure on the hotside, it had better be a t04r! Thats what i paid for, Lindop got it for me, its the full hks kit.
putting figures aside, are you impressed wtih the drive? have you gone from twins to to4r?
Yeah i am impressed, its a different world, you have to be more carefull on the corners.
at the end of the day figures are figures, as long as you enjoy the car and are impressed with it on the road thats all the matters. It may be that the temps it was running at on the dyno made you loose alot of power that you are getting when you drive it. :driving
Quote from: Ed_RX7he should be a touch less your turbine wheel is 70mm.... to4r is 66mm i believe.
is that flywheel figures mate?
yes matey, wow rw that would be kicking some HUGE ass :flamed
Will there be a label on the turbo, showing hotside and model? Will i be able to see it from the top of the engine or will i need to be underneath?
the a/r is stamped on the cast iron bit and the aliminium bit (they will be different), it will be on the back where your down pipe comes out so depending on your manifold you may or maynot see it. Try a torch and a mirror. Its cast in and will say something like 0.84 or 1.06
A TO4E with a 0.84 hotside has made 350 rwhp at 1 bar with a modest street port on a dyno dynamics so you could have a to4r but with a 0.64 hot side from a supra or something. I thought the guy who started lindopp used to work for pip at WGT, if so he should know his stuff. Is your engine ported?
see the picture for help
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i225/Antnicuk/DSCF3952.jpg)
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i225/Antnicuk/DSCF3951.jpg)
Quote from: Ed_RX7he should be a touch less your turbine wheel is 70mm.... to4r is 66mm i believe.
is that flywheel figures mate?
Wow, been reading this for a little while and now I\'m seriously looking forward to the single. Didn\'t realise just how big the GT3574 is ! Its got a 82mm Comp and 74mm Turbine. How would that compare to the the TO4 turbos ??
As for the issue on the power a dyno will not always paint the whole picture especially with air temps at a high level. Are you sure that it hit that level and he let it cool back down. If you pulled the info off the commander it will only display the max level, even if it was ticking over letting other things cool down.
Shaun
The engine has a streetport, the hks t04r was brand new! Yep it was 2 guys who worked for pip at wgt.
Quote from: shaunwilWow, been reading this for a little while and now I\'m seriously looking forward to the single. Didn\'t realise just how big the GT3574 is ! Its got a 82mm Comp and 74mm Turbine. How would that compare to the the TO4 turbos ??
As for the issue on the power a dyno will not always paint the whole picture especially with air temps at a high level. Are you sure that it hit that level and he let it cool back down. If you pulled the info off the commander it will only display the max level, even if it was ticking over letting other things cool down.
Shaun
You sure its got a 74mm front wheel (turbine)....I dont think it has but i may be wrong.
Original Quote from A-spec :
This is a new turbo I did up here for the demand I was getting for a non-BB 35R. Garrett does sell a non-bb GT35 but it uses a smaller 76mm compressor as oppossed to the larger 82mm wheel of the "R" model. Ours also uses a larger more rotary friendly 74mm turbine as opposed to the 68mm turbine of the standard 35R. This offers a very nice 1.1 wheel ratio as well as slightly increased flow out the turbine.
Here is a comparison
GT35 76mm comp, 68mm turbine.
GT35R 82mm comp, 68mm turbine.
GT3574 82mm comp, 74mm turbine.
As stated above this was a need that definitely needed filling as I get more emails about non-bb 35R\'s than anything else. So there you have it
Shaun
sorry i mean compressor wheel not turbine.....the front wheel..
your talking about the back of the front wheel.
so shaun i think the measurement of your turbo will be:
The compressor wheel diameter (inducer) will measure 61.4mm and the back of the compressor wheel (exducer) will measure 82mm.
by comparison a t04r compressor inducer is 67mm
to4s compressor inducer is 60mm
t70 compressor inducer is 70mm
gt4294 compressor inducer is 70.3
Just didnt want to mislead you in thinking that your turbo was bigger than a t70 for example, as that was the impression i got from your fist post
cheers
Shaun, I think as far as wheel sizes go the 3574 has the same size exh wheel as the t04r but a smaller comp wheel. Aspec have worked it out to be a good match for the rotor :)
I did think that it was smaller but after reading both bits I thought it was a bit bigger than originally planned. Its going onto an unported engine !
Just can\'t wait :D
Shaun
Don\'t worry, very glad you cleared it up :D
Shaun
will deffo be good to how it performs on an unported engine.......any plans to port it down the line?
Ed have you had yours dynod yet mate ?
Quote from: Ed_RX7will deffo be good to how it performs on an unported engine.......any plans to port it down the line?
I think the plan is if I decide to go for some porting then this engine and turbo will go in the FB and I\'ll get a new engine already ported with a A-spec GT42R kit :D
Shaun
nice!................
Quote from: strange_days_ukEd have you had yours dynod yet mate ?
Sort of.....very very very good figures at 1 bar....but not gonna disclose/post yet as had an issue that i need to iron out first......call me for more info
the HKS TO4r is not capable of any more power than around 450bhp is it? i saw one of these and looked on HKS power sheet. i think the power you\'ve got is pretty good. has pip mapped your car yet today? if so results?
Quote from: jammy_uvthe HKS TO4r is not capable of any more power than around 450bhp is it? i saw one of these and looked on HKS power sheet. i think the power you\'ve got is pretty good. has pip mapped your car yet today? if so results?
depending on the porting and boost level...450rwhp is attainable on a t04r.
Quote from: jammy_uvthe HKS TO4r is not capable of any more power than around 450bhp is it? i saw one of these and looked on HKS power sheet. i think the power you\'ve got is pretty good. has pip mapped your car yet today? if so results?
With just a street port I had just under 500fwhp, Brian Ellis had even more out of one of his cars equipped with the TO4R, so sub 400 flywheel horsepower is pretty poor for this turbo, Im sure Pip will easily get more power
wow really!?i looked at the To4r kit but just didn\'t make me feel like it was the one - so i went with the TD06SH25G kit. I will post some pics of my engine bay so far on a seperate post so you can all give me your opinions - or lash out at me lol. this will be the first time i will post pics of my car on this as i didn\'t really intend to until it was complete but its seams to be taking ages! lol.
It made 410 at the fly, have deceided its a t04e badged as a t04r. Getting it replaced and sorted by lindop.
that sounds about right, must still have a small exhaust housing for a TO4E as i said above, one of these with a 0.84 exhaust housing still made 350 rwhp at 1 bar on a small street ported REW. Glad they are sorting it for you.
Is a Gt40 any good as a replacement for my turbo?
what make gt40 is it?...is it a 35/40 or gt4082 or gt4088
Not sure, lindop are getting it for me, are any of them any good?
how much you paying for the turbo?
Nothing, it was there mistake, credit to lindop.
fair play....landed on your feet there!!!
Is the gt40 any good? Better than a t04z?
its good but not better than the t04z IMO.....if it was GT40r then that would be different.