TII 89 standard turbo/engine
well got to grips with the engine the other day, brought the car cheap to some serious smoking and found that the inlet impellor or the turbo was chewed up and some serious amount of oil in all the IC pipes,exhaust and everywhere else. So, engine starts fine in all of this and has only done about 3000miles since a rebuild and due to the chewed up impellor and shaft play just thought the turbo had gone. Changed the turbo and cleaned as much of the oil as possible from the pipes etc but it still smokes. Its not as bad as it was and gets worse as it gets hotter, more white smoke than blue. So question is
1. Was the impellor damage self inflicted by the turbo failing
2. Is the damage caused by something giving way internally in the engine
3. Has the turbo inflicted damage to the engine
I will get my hands on a compression tester to get some figures but i imagine I will be doing my first strip and rebuild on this one, just need to make sure i have covered everything before i do. There seems no impact damage to the IC or upper UIM/manifold and the exhaust side of the turbo is fully intact as well. Infact the exhaust side was very clean and no sign of oil but yet the exhaust was full of the stuff.....poured out. Does not seem to lose water. Going to give it a good blast through as its still undoubtedly burning off the old oil in the exhaust. I have a spare exhaust so might swop it over.
So at the moment i think i will look closer at the Apex seals, I can get a camera probe from work and look through the spark plug holes to check them out and hopefully a compression test will verify if there is internal damage or oil/water seal gone. If it is a rebuild then looking to salvage as much as possible as this engine has been rebuilt by Jimmies in the past. Warrenty is long gone.
aw thats a bummer chief, sorry to hear it.
your certainly heading in all the right directions, but with most of the impellor blades going walkies there is a fair chance of some internal engine damage :(
but! there is a chance you have got away with it, so it may be worth changing the exhaust to see if it does stop smoking. that unfortunately would require running the engine and if there is damage and debris that will only make things worse!
rock and a hard place springs to mind.
I agree on that but this engine has also been running for some time by the previous owner. How the heck does all the blades get through the IC,cant see any damage there but it looks like its going to snow, gone pretty cold so i\'m staying in the warm for now !!
yeah warmth is a good priortiy atm ive been working without it all day!
so yeah, i dont think most of the damaged blades would have got through either but there is a chance of some of it getting through, even more so if the previous owner was giving it some stick when the turbo failed.
were there any fine or small bits of metal in the pipe work after the ic?
no none at all, the exhaust port is clean and has no damage at all. Going to have a good look at it tomorrow and post some pics of the turbo on here. it might well be the prelude to the strip down but we\'ll see.
I do want to uprate the turbo but just finding it difficult to locate something that will just pop in. Any ideas ? not looking for anything big BHP wise.
Going to fit FD coolers as I will be fitting a FMIC to the car so cooling not a prob.
pic of the damage to inlet impellor, no other signs of damage on the exit to intercooler. Also damage is to the very front of the impellor and almost as if its suffered from something going down. There is no visible signs of scoring as if the blades touching the outer wall. trouble is its gone somewhere.!!
Sounds stupid but they wouldnt have put the turbo back on (damaged) after rebuilding the engine would they? Only way I can account for the missing blades!
Well you know I was thinking of that and would not surprise me in the slightest. Not had the time to start it today as I was busy stripping my scrap cab down to the last nut and bolt. Thats all ready on the trailer now.
Mind you I could have fitted a knackered turbo? possible but i\'ll see tomorrow if it does not snow !!
As time goes by nothing surprises me! (I wouldnt have thought you would have fitted a knackered one though :()
God do I sound that old! :Laugh
Started no probs and no smoke at first. Took maybe 10 mins to get hot and then it started smoking,hard to tell in the dark but its defo smoking. Also when I stop it, I can hear something dripping within the exhaust manifold by the turbo so i suspect oil or water from within one of the chambers. I also noticed that the top hose was not really that hot so I also suspect a blockage or thermostat but its not overheating or anything. Only one thing left and thats a compression check and hopefully this may pick something up.
it looks like something has gone down there and inflicted some pain like an 8mm nut or stone or skrew or something, and if the bearings or thrust had failed in the turbo they can score the housings. but there is none. is there any lateral or horizontal play in the turbo? not that it matters that much cos the turbo is now goosed. but if there is none the cause of smoke may not be the turbo!(http://www.mazdarotaryclub.com/forums/images/icons/icon9.gif)
its most likely your exhaust is filled with oil, hense the smoking only when hot bud, had this on a glanza starlet, took ages to clear.
shaft play is massive and i am also in agreement about the oil in the exhaust as it literally poured out from the mid section. I would have imagined that if there was an oil or water leak from within then i would get more blue smoke when its cold but i get none, in fact it did not smoke at all during the start up. Think i\'ll change the exhaust and then i\'ll know for sure.
uoo lots of shaft play and an oil filled exhaust! i am in agreement with the exhautst change!
(http://www.mazdarotaryclub.com/forums/images/icons/icon14.gif)
let us know how it goes!
well after replacing the exhaust (complete) i started the car and there is no smoke at all, nothing. This is really good news as this lump has been rebuilt so looks like a good buy all over again. Bit of blue smoke when you rev it but nothing to worry about. Might change the thermostat and get rad swopped as i was not happy with areas of top hose being quite cool compared to nearer the rad and engine. temp gauge was showing normal throughout.
Still hearing a sound like oil or water being dripped on a hot surface within this replacement turbo (not a proven one) so just wondering if this is a bit one but for now its proven the engine for now and enough for me to carry on working on it. only seems to do this after shut down but with the 3" exhaust i doubt i would hear it with engine going.
Quote from: J6KFSaw thats a bummer chief, sorry to hear it.
your certainly heading in all the right directions, but with most of the impellor blades going walkies there is a fair chance of some internal engine damage :(
but! there is a chance you have got away with it, so it may be worth changing the exhaust to see if it does stop smoking. that unfortunately would require running the engine and if there is damage and debris that will only make things worse!
rock and a hard place springs to mind.
I can\'t see how an Impellor would cause damage, its the other way round, the Engine causes damage to the Impellor, Think about it, it won\'t go bvack into the engine from the Turbine side becuase of the pressure invoved (gasses coming out the engine) and it can\'t go in the Comp way because of the Intercooler??
well damage can be caused by no filter being fitted and also if the bearings are gone then it will touch the walls and damage the blades. Its not always engine that causes damage. engine will cause exhaust blade damage.
I think.........
Quote from: GrizzlyI can\'t see how an Impellor would cause damage, its the other way round, the Engine causes damage to the Impellor, Think about it, it won\'t go bvack into the engine from the Turbine side becuase of the pressure invoved (gasses coming out the engine) and it can\'t go in the Comp way because of the Intercooler??
yeah the engine can only really cause damage to the exhaust side ie. throws a seal into the blades etc and it all heads down the exhaust, but when a bearing or something fails on the intake side of the turbo on boost, like 250,000 rpm, the impellor that hits the housing turns to very small bits of metal which can get through the IC. and it was the intake side that got the damage.
anyhow the exhaust change seems to have cured the problem which is the best outcome me thinks!:chat
my new turbo 92nd hand ) just waiting for the stainless manifold to do this job properly.
Dump valve is 45mm and will be plumbed into the exhaust rather than just out to atmosphere.
waiting for better weather and a bit more space and then engine will come out to get the pete taylor treatment. This car is now offically my next project so will create another post soon on the whole thing.
wow that exhaust housing is huge!:Laugh what turbo is that?
Xspower one that they advertise. Made to be mated specifically for the rotary. Not even sure on the make but at only £120 for the turbo and dump valve then worth it. No shaft play at all. The flipping dump valve is huge,never realised they were so big. If you look on their website they are something like close to £300 to buy new. The exhaust is big but then big is good to harness all that power to drive the compressor.
cant wait now to get the engine out and do the business on it.
I really ought to start a new project thread but i will do that when i actually get to do something. so far i am just collecting.
I don\'t want to put your Turbo down but you will proberly find it was originally made for a Diesel truck, i bought a similar Turbo from the US that came with odd size Comp and Exhaust Housings but was a Genuine Garrett Core, after a couple of Thousand miles it started to blow smoke so i kicked off to the people i got it from (who never replied to e-mails) so i took it to MIE Turbo\'s who told me most of the Parts in it where designed for cold work (i.e. Diesels) so they would not withstand the extra heat. The thing that distinguishes the two types of Turbo is the Hot Petrol turbo\'s are nearly always water cooled.
although that is a cheaper style turbo, non water cooled turbos are not all unsuited for hotter burning petrol cars, T78 an T88, GT35/40\'s are all good turbos that are not water cooled. My garret GT35/40 had a life for 2 years and is still going strong. Thats with long spells on track. The roller bearing turbos are water cooled like the gt35r.
I thought all the New bread of Garrett cores where Wet? And arn\'t Greddy Turbo\'s Mitsubishi\'s or some thing like that?? (I admit My Knolage is limited to Garrett as Honeywell is next door to out Wilmslow Branch so i chat to them Pro\'s and con\'s etc :))
BTW whats this i hear about you and Toyota\'s???
i still have a rotary, just no rx7 , i have taken the best bits from an RX7 (engine) and thrown away the plasticy rubbish bit (the car).
A supra just ticks more of the boxes for me at the moment! Plus you can do this in a stock one!
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Well we\'ll see how the turbo performs and lasts. Been on the XSpower website and its got some good info on this turbo, take your point about water and oil cooler turbos but why use water anyway, surely is just another way of cooling it down, if you have a decent oil cooler then it will lubricate and cool the thing down. We have aero engines that reach 2000 deg C in the combustion section, output at the exhaust is somewhere near 800 and they are all oil fed bearings, admittedly dam fine roller and thrust bearings. Of course the oil is cooled by ram air and fuel so it maintains the properties of the oil. So as long as you have a decent oil cooler setup then doing away with water is something less to go wrong.
Quote from: pdtaylor18Well we\'ll see how the turbo performs and lasts. Been on the XSpower website and its got some good info on this turbo, take your point about water and oil cooler turbos but why use water anyway, surely is just another way of cooling it down, if you have a decent oil cooler then it will lubricate and cool the thing down. We have aero engines that reach 2000 deg C in the combustion section, output at the exhaust is somewhere near 800 and they are all oil fed bearings, admittedly dam fine roller and thrust bearings. Of course the oil is cooled by ram air and fuel so it maintains the properties of the oil. So as long as you have a decent oil cooler setup then doing away with water is something less to go wrong.
Its as simple as heat creates wear, lower the heat and you lower the wear.