Hi chaps, I\'ve recently bought a 407bhp 13b engine that a mate took out his RX7 after deciding to go the LS2 root. I\'m planning on fitting it transverse to my 306 track car so this will mean making an adaptor so the Pug box will mate to the Mazda engine. I\'ve got the g/box offered up to the engine at the moment and after a bit of a worry about the intermediate driveshaft clearing the exhaust manifold I reckon it will **** in with perhaps a bit of a an engine tilt.
I wondered if anyone has a drawing of the Mazda 13b bellhousing which would save me stripping the engine down and plotting the hole centers myself.
This is a picture of the car the engine will be going in, I\'ve done a 8min 38sec lap round the Ring with my g/friend in and quite few hold ups, so going from 170bhp to 407bhp should see me shave a few seconds off that time.
Thanks in advance Martin
(http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a51/martincrf450/Picture139.jpg)
(http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a51/martincrf450/Picture141.jpg)
(http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a51/martincrf450/Picture137.jpg)
you are mad!!
I know Ross @ Dragon is interested in putting the 13b into differnt cars, so give him a call, he maybe able to help you out. 01404 891888.
sounds like a crazy project, would be a very quick 306 :burnout
wow, surely you\'d be better off with the power going to the back. Talk about torque steer for getting round a corner.
Make sure you post images of the coversion when you start.
Are you running N/A or turbo ?
Shaun
Oh and Lovely pug too :D Bet its quick already !
Shaun
Ta for all the comments, I\'ll post the pictures when it gets underway. It would be nice to RWD it but I want to retain the balance of the car. I do a lot of track days with a mate that does the Cleo cup and on a lap I can almost keep with him and I did keep with him a couple of weeks ago in the wet at Donington.When you consider a Cleo cup car does 0-100mph in 12 seconds and my engines std this shows you how well the car works. The car as a package works incredible and I want to try and retain that balance as much as I can.
The engine that I\'m fitting is a single turbo 13b engine thats been dyno\'d at WGT when it was in my mates RX7 at 407bhp a couple of months ago.
That will be a seriously quick car :D
The only other really important thing to consider early on is if the gearbox will stand upto a really big hike in power.
How strong is the 306 gearbox and diff ? Last thing you would want is to blow the gearbox up every time you put your foot down.
Shaun
Welcome to MRC and good luck with the project,
Space shouldn\'t be a tremendous problem as these engines have even found there way into Mini\'s before now.
Unfortunately I don\'t think your going to find the drawings you need anywhere.
Keep us posted with your progress if you can as lots of people will be interested in your project:D
Hi Shaun i see your from Preston,my mate Craig that sold me the engine lives at Preston. As well as the 650bhp LS2 engined 975kg RX7 that my engine came out of he\'s also got the tripple rotor RX7 that was built by WGT, this car runs over 600bhp as well.
The six speed gti6 box isnt known for being strong but one of the lads on the GTI6 forum runs over 400bhp through one without much trouble.I had considered running the V6 box which is much stronger but there no LSD available for it.
Ah right. I\'m not sure I know Craig TBH. Don\'t think he is a member on the club !
The Cosmo your talking about is an absolute monster :D
I would go for the stronger box. Do you really need a LSD for a FWD setup ? Didn\'t they give the focus RS alot of stick for having one ?
Be a very nice setup when running though !
Shaun
a friend of mine was looking at putting one in his fiesta xr2, same problem was the shaft clearing the manifold. The best thing you can do is pop into WGT and get pip to give you a knackered rear plate, They are the same from any engine, even a 12A so it wont matter which engine it comes from.
My mate was quoted about 400 quid for a conversion plate for the ford bell housing.
Good luck with it, it will take some fettling but will be worth it.
I think craig may be going under the name of tinker-27 :) if not its a different craig:rolleyes:
Sick of being smoked by a certain 580 brake scoob I reckon. HA HA
I\'d be scared of wrecking what you obviously consider a pretty decent car at present. Doubling and more the power output (esp while staying FWD) is going to turn the car into some thing else entirely. If you\'re set on doing a 306, I\'d think about getting another one to mess about with, dont imagine they cost much. Talking from experience, its always sad fking up a decent car by turning it into a project ;)
that will be too much power thru the front wheels i think it will be hideous to drive and control
Quote from: cannonballerSick of being smoked by a certain 580 brake scoob I reckon. HA HA
Yep if I could get the power differance between our cars down to around the 180bhp mark there should\'nt be a problem driving round that:rollin
As for putting big power through the front wheels, theres quite a few CTR\'s running 500bhp+ that seem to work ok on track and when you look at the power/torque curve of the particular engine I\'m using it seems to come on boost and produce it\'s torque very linier unlike a lot of piston engined turbo cars which come on boost with a bang and have massive amounts of torque in the mid range which does make a big power turbo cars hard to drive over a lap.
I think you will find 400bhp far too much for fwd. It\'s tried and tested that there isn not much point in anything over 250bhp sometimes a little more depending on set up.
500bhp ctrs that i have seen have all been drag set up with very wide full slick tyres. And a lsd is absolute must or your just smoke 1 tyre all the time.
Good luck with the build.
Quote from: RobMatthewsI think craig may be going under the name of tinker-27 :) if not its a different craig:rolleyes:
Its a different Craig under Cwin i believe, he was looking into buying my satin rx7 and met him a few times very nice guy, and has the seriously quick 20B that Normski had :god
Looks like a awesome project you\'re undertaking there mate, love to see some times and figures once you have completed the project, going to be a very quick Peugot !!!!!!
I will put it simply. If you want to wreck a good 306 then give it to me and I will rally it.
The rotor conversion will not work, It wont handle,It will upset the balance of the car, you will have to upgrade the brakes if you dont want to kill yourself and amongst other things no matter what other ****e people tell you it will cost more than you think. Have you sat down and set a budget and then doubled it plus it will not make the car worth anymore.
If you go ahead and build it(fair play to you) I will meet you at a drag strip and put my Series 1 Rx7 with 250bhp motor up against it just for a laugh
Good luck
So you don\'t like that idea then !
Quote from: kiwimazdaI will put it simply. If you want to wreck a good 306 then give it to me and I will rally it.
The rotor conversion will not work, It wont handle,It will upset the balance of the car, you will have to upgrade the brakes if you dont want to kill yourself and amongst other things no matter what other ****e people tell you it will cost more than you think. Have you sat down and set a budget and then doubled it plus it will not make the car worth anymore.
If you go ahead and build it(fair play to you) I will meet you at a drag strip and put my Series 1 Rx7 with 250bhp motor up against it just for a laugh
Good luck
I\'ll be proving the conversion on another car I\'ve got, not because I\'ve got any doubts about it working, just so I can keep my track car going while I tinker with the other one and iron out all the problems. When I put it in my track car I want it to be Saturdays job.I cant understand why you seem adamant it wont work and your making assumptions about me and my car. For instance my brakes are straight off a Scooby WRC although at the moment I\'m only running 305mm rotors there\'s still a margin left in the brakes, when the engine goes in the it will be running 350mm rotors as I\'m moving up to 18" rims this year.I haven\'t even considered a budget as I\'ve got everything I need to run the engine when I bought it. I also own and run a machine and fab shop and I\'ll be making everything else for the conversion myself and besides anybody that modifies any car know that you\'ll only get a fraction of what your spending back when you came to sell it. The 13b wasn\'t my only engine option, I\'ve got a brand new 285bhp big bore Mi16 engine sat in my garage that I built couple of years ago that would be great in the car but I\'m convinced the 13b will suit it better and be give me less hassle in the long run and improve the balance of the car. Thanks for your input and it would be interesting to see how it would go on a drag strip but the cars built for going round corners really. My brakes(http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a51/martincrf450/Picture181-1.jpg) My Mi16 205(http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a51/martincrf450/Variousphotos110.jpg) My 2.2ltr Mi16 engine (http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a51/martincrf450/Newenginepictures004.jpg) (http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a51/martincrf450/Newenginepictures001.jpg)
save yourself a world of grief and use the m16 lump the rotary will not take constant abuse at the power levels u have honestly..do a search they have a tendency to pop more than ur average piston car
depends which piston cars you are refering to, i have had my rx7 for 2 and a half years with no problems and i know guys with imprezas and evos that have gone pop several times. I dont drive my rx7 alot but when i do i dont take it easy hehe im running around about the same power as them aswell
mi16 engines are very good engines thou and are built for motorsport, and you can get 300+ bhp out of them, i know a few guys with stripped out 205\'s with tuned up mi16 lumps and they are very very quick cars round a track especially tracks like castle combe where you dont play with top end its more bottom and mid range. Ive seen plenty of 205\'s take on porsches and cars of that caliber with ease round castle combe
400+ bhp in a stripped 306 will be very very quick, good luck with the project and i hope it all goes well, and keep us updated :Thumbs-up
Quote from: crf450I\'ll be proving the conversion on another car I\'ve got, not because I\'ve got any doubts about it working, just so I can keep my track car going while I tinker with the other one and iron out all the problems. When I put it in my track car I want it to be Saturdays job.
I cant understand why you seem adamant it wont work and your making assumptions about me and my car. For instance my brakes are straight off a Scooby WRC although at the moment I\'m only running 305mm rotors there\'s still a margin left in the brakes, when the engine goes in the it will be running 350mm rotors as I\'m moving up to 18" rims this year.
I haven\'t even considered a budget as I\'ve got everything I need to run the engine when I bought it. I also own and run a machine and fab shop and I\'ll be making everything else for the conversion myself and besides anybody that modifies any car know that you\'ll only get a fraction of what your spending back when you came to sell it. The 13b wasn\'t my only engine option, I\'ve got a brand new 285bhp big bore Mi16 engine sat in my garage that I built couple of years ago that would be great in the car but I\'m convinced the 13b will suit it better and be give me less hassle in the long run and improve the balance of the car. Thanks for your input and it would be interesting to see how it would go on a drag strip but the cars built for going round corners really.
No good sir I am not making assumptions about you at all.
But you have now enlightend us on your engineering skills, something you didnt do earlier.
Quote from: rx7veilsidesave yourself a world of grief and use the m16 lump the rotary will not take constant abuse at the power levels u have honestly..do a search they have a tendency to pop more than ur average piston car
Sorry but i think thats so untrue. With the the rotary being the only japanese engine ever to win lemans, i would take that statement with a pinch of salt. Kinda make me wonder why the 787b was banned in the first place? Rotary\'s make great race engines. With the right mods, they can be made to be very reliable. Has no one seen the vid of the rx7 redlining for like 10mins? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GoGAdxl9l0E As for the conversion, I would still put it in the pug, just in the back driving the rear wheels.
I think with this chaps engineering background rebuilding the rotary should not be an issue and is cheaper to rebuild that the piston version so all should be well if it does go pop after a while.
Deffo wanna see this Pug fly with the rotary in it, which turbo will you be running as not seen one mentioned yet ? the 400bhp figure would have been turbo\'d :Thumbs-up
Quote from: gsb876I think with this chaps engineering background rebuilding the rotary should not be an issue and is cheaper to rebuild that the piston version so all should be well if it does go pop after a while.
Deffo wanna see this Pug fly with the rotary in it, which turbo will you be running as not seen one mentioned yet ? the 400bhp figure would have been turbo\'d :Thumbs-up
it depends if the 407bhp figure is flywheel or wheels, if its flywheel could just be a highly tuned twin turbo.
Love your "can do, will do" attitude crf450!
Can\'t help with thechnical details of maiting engine to gearbox but whatever you do make sure you factor in enough space for a big rad and intercooler.
For track work most people run v-mounted setups - they tend to work slightly better than front-mounted intercoolers (it\'s difficult getting enough throu-flow on the FMIC to the rad).
Other than that ensure the map is erring on the safe side and you\'ll have plenty of track miles out of it. It\'s usually the ancillaries that go and take out FD engines - 15 year old fuel pumps and the like so treat them well and you\'ll be fine.
Good luck with the project and keep us updated!
Looks great! stick to your guns, it may or it may not work. wont know untill you try huh :Giggle
Good luck
leon
Good luck with the conversion, thought i remembered your name from the 205gtidrivers forum.
Quote from: iaintLove your "can do, will do" attitude crf450!
Can\'t help with thechnical details of maiting engine to gearbox but whatever you do make sure you factor in enough space for a big rad and intercooler.
For track work most people run v-mounted setups - they tend to work slightly better than front-mounted intercoolers (it\'s difficult getting enough throu-flow on the FMIC to the rad).
Other than that ensure the map is erring on the safe side and you\'ll have plenty of track miles out of it. It\'s usually the ancillaries that go and take out FD engines - 15 year old fuel pumps and the like so treat them well and you\'ll be fine.
Good luck with the project and keep us updated!
The thing that appealed to me about the Mazda engine was its reliability. The engine had done work running over 400bhp before it was imported to this country so were not that sure how much work in total it\'s done. Whatever it had done my mate did track day after track day and all he did was change the oil. The thing I liked about my 306 was the fact I could get in it do 45mins on track at race pace and never have to lift the bonnet before I went out again,well this is how Craig\'s RX7 that my engine came from seemed to run.I am planning on freshening the engine up before it goes back in and cooling is a concern. I did get everything with the engine so it will be a case of seeing what I can make fit,on first glance the intercooler and rad look as though they\'ll need work to fit. I\'m just going out to my garage so I\'ll take some pics of my parts and post them here and hopefully some of you lot can tell me what I\'ve got.
As I understand it this is a piggy back set-up, thought I\'d be better running a stand alown set as it\'s running in a pug.
Anyone know (thats not interested in buying it) what this lots worth?
(http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a51/martincrf450/PICT1762.jpg)
Had thought about using just the presure plate and making my own flywheel as the Mazda one is to big to fit in the g/gox so now I reckon I\'ll make a flywheel as standard pug but obviously to bolt onto the mazda crank.This will also be for sale
(http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a51/martincrf450/PICT1761.jpg)
Mock up of about how it will sit.
(http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a51/martincrf450/PICT1760.jpg)
More stuff
(http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a51/martincrf450/PICT1759.jpg).
Anyone know what make this is.
(http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a51/martincrf450/PICT1758.jpg)
(http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a51/martincrf450/PICT1757.jpg)
Inlet and Intercooler
(http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a51/martincrf450/PICT1756.jpg)
Rad
(http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a51/martincrf450/PICT1755.jpg)
The apexi ecu is needed if you want to run the single turbo. You also have a boost controller, so you can turn the boost up or down from inside the car. I would definitly be interested in the clutch if you decide to sell it.
The apexi isn\'t a piggy back unit at all. You unplug the original ECU and plug the apexi in. No patch looms or rewiring required on the original car.
Theres an awful lot of stuff to put in a very small spot. I\'d also be worried about the exhaust boiling the water in the rad.
Definately a very interesting conversion. The only other thoughts I\'d have is to install it N/A first and see how it holds up. At least you wouldn\'t have to worry about the intercooler, turbo exhaust system and alot of the related piping. Then install the Turbo side once your happy with the N/A setup.
Shaun
just thought. Your gonna need the engine wiring loom. There are 2 parts to the loom. Luckily these 2 are seperate to the rest of the cars loom.
Quote from: shaunwilThe apexi isn\'t a piggy back unit at all. You unplug the original ECU and plug the apexi in. No patch looms or rewiring required on the original car.
Theres an awful lot of stuff to put in a very small spot. I\'d also be worried about the exhaust boiling the water in the rad.
Definately a very interesting conversion. The only other thoughts I\'d have is to install it N/A first and see how it holds up. At least you wouldn\'t have to worry about the intercooler, turbo exhaust system and alot of the related piping. Then install the Turbo side once your happy with the N/A setup.
Shaun
The shot of the engine and box is actually taken from the back. I was hopping to run the turbo/wastgate in at the back with just some minor mods to the zorst manifold but after another head scratching session tonight it looks like best place for the turbo is sat above the gearbox.That may be good news about the ECU, I have actually got all the Mazda wiring but it looks a complete nightmare that\'s another reason I thought about using a more non-car specific ECU.Thanks again for the input.
No problem. Half of the popularity of the pfc is it is genuinley plug and play. Majority of the other ecus need alot of rewiring.
A friend had a special edition 306 gti-6 when i had my FTO. Was a nice car.
I\'d still consider the N/A option if the engine is ported. Hard to know where the exhaust system will end up sitting. Possibly you could have a long manifold and tuck the turbo round the side of the back of the engine bay.
Definately a big job for sure.
Shaun
Quote from: crf450The thing that appealed to me about the Mazda engine was its reliability. The engine had done work running over 400bhp before it was imported to this country so were not that sure how much work in total it\'s done. Whatever it had done my mate did track day after track day and all he did was change the oil. The thing I liked about my 306 was the fact I could get in it do 45mins on track at race pace and never have to lift the bonnet before I went out again,well this is how Craig\'s RX7 that my engine came from seemed to run.
Are you rebuilding Craig\'s engine then?
This seems to be quite a mad conversion for 306, not too sure how successful it will be but best of luck. A friend of mine should have his 205running in the next 2 weeks with jap lump and a few toys if your after a bit of competition.
awesome idea mate, lots more head scratching to go i\'m sure but once its sorted it\'ll certainly be one of the most unique cars out there! I agree with the guys about testing out the N/a route first but of course itll make things more complicated if you decide to go turbo after.
Are you using that single turbo or can i have it? :)
Here\'s my bodge
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y96/matramurena/abba.jpg)
More on http://www.maztra.nl (http://www.maztra.nl)
Succes!
Greetz Bart Heemskerk
does look like you will get a drive shaft in there when the exhaust is on or is it just the angle the picture is taken??
good project thought mate :D
it fits (just) have a look at the rest of the (finished) piccies on the website.
Bart, thanks for posting this, remember reading all this with great interest on the rx7club.com ... a fantastic project and I love the engine mounts, any problem can be solved with enough steel and a welder :)
Quote from: karl_tatedoes look like you will get a drive shaft in there when the exhaust is on or is it just the angle the picture is taken??
(http://www.maztra.nl/bestanden/B10.JPG)
But thats a 12a engine, there is a 20mm increase in overall length with the 13b.
Shaun
Quote from: shaunwilBut thats a 12a engine, there is a 20mm increase in overall length with the 13b.
So? Will that make gearbox/adapterplate/driveshafts/exhaust more difficult?
What an awesome idea! Go for it! Only problem I can see is that the Peugeot gearbox will struggle with the huge increase in torque, they are notoriously weak. I would like to shake your hand once its all done! Personally I would like to put a PP 13b NA in an old mazda 323 still FF but dont have the time, patience or money. Good luck!
Andy,Craig\'s engine will get a freshen up, I don\'t know if I\'ll do it but it\'ll get done one way or another.
Bramble, I\'ve had a change of plan as regards gearbox choice, I\'m now using a V6 406 box which I\'ve got a couple of low mileage ones kicking around. I\'ve always had the idea of using one of these in the back of my mind but I was put off by the fact that there\'s no LSD available for it, but after talking to Quaiffe at the show I\'m pretty sure I can adapt an ATB out of another model. This gearbox has much wider gears and the input shaft is almost as big as the Mazda one which is about 4mm bigger on diameter than the std 306 input shaft. It will also bolt on to the original g/box mount and all the drive shafts are interchangeable with the 306 ones and are again much more substantial.
Maztra, I can see you\'ve had to overcome all the same problems that I\'m faced with. I\'m tilting the Mazda engine back slightly which means my driveshaft will run over the headers. As someone has pointed out the 13b engine is slightly longer than yours which helps me with regard mounting the intermediate driveshaft bearing. I\'ll be able to machine dowel and bolt holes in the Mazda end casing which will mean I can have a small alloy mount which will be almost as it was designed to be fitted in the Pug.
I\'ve only had time to have a quick scan through your website but it looks as though you\'ve had a bespoke input shaft made to run in the Mazda needle roller fitted in the crank. I was thinking this wasn\'t necessary. I thought the general rule of thumb was rear wheel drive gearboxes locate in a bearing in the crank where as front wheel drive boxes don\'t. As I was using a front wheel drive box I didn\'t think it was necessary. I\'d be interested to here your thoughts on this.
As regards the progress on my conversion, I\'ve had WGT send me a end casting off a 13b engine and I\'ve plotted all the whole centres, I\'ve now got to do the same with the V6 box then I can make the adaptor. I had planned on doing some more work on it at the weekend but as the weather was good I opted on doing a trackday at Bedford on Saturday then one at Donington on Sunday. Hope to do some more work later this week now.
Cheers Martin
Good luck it will be a beast! Might need to do some weight lifting to get ready for the torque steer, but it\'ll be a scream!
Quote from: crf450I\'ve only had time to have a quick scan through your website but it looks as though you\'ve had a bespoke input shaft made to run in the Mazda needle roller fitted in the crank. I was thinking this wasn\'t necessary. I thought the general rule of thumb was rear wheel drive gearboxes locate in a bearing in the crank where as front wheel drive boxes don\'t. As I was using a front wheel drive box I didn\'t think it was necessary. I\'d be interested to here your thoughts on this
Cheers Martin
As far as i know, most of the inputshaft have a pilot-end which goes in the center bearing of the crank. Both transversal gearbox and RWD gearboxes. It is meant to hold the inputshaft in the center of the crank. The toyota box i used, doesn\'t have such a pilot-end on the input shaft. The shaft i made (with pilot-end) is only a tool to line the gearbox up with the engine. After it was lined up, i put the original input shaft back in.
My first thought was to get the bolt pattern from the engine and gearbox and draw an adapterplate with autocad. Problem was i couldn\'t found these patterns. And even if i found them, question is if the center of the shaft is also marked (and how acurate). So i skipped the plan of designing the bolt patern with autocad. Instead i made a adapterplate without any holes.
I just marked and drilled the holes of the engine, bolt it to the engine, put the engine in a vertical position, and put the gearbox on top. With the input shaft tool i made i centered the gearbox, using the needle bearing in the crank as reference. Marked and drilled the holes in the adapterplate and that\'s it! It worked for me.
If you\'re not using the mazda flywheel, you have to use a mazda flywheel flange from an automatic gear with the same engine. The mazda flywheel has some counterweights in it. In an automatic gear flywheel the counterweights are in the flange. You can bolt an alternative flywheel to this flange.
I prefered to use a PSA gearbox instead of the toyota one. The thing with PSA gearboxes is, that the part of the dif where the shaft comes out, is not flush with the bellhousing. That makes the adapterplate a bit more challenging. But if you tilt the engine a bit backwards, you move that part of the dif away from the engine. Which makes it a bit easyer.
good project seems like you know what your doing anyway.
will be a frustrating to drive though. i had a 275 bhp 2 liter nova. its span up to redline in 1st,2nd,3rd and 4th gear in the dry and understeered like a bitch.
isn\'t the 13b lighter? heel be getting more torque understeer than anything else
You converting to RWD? The most you should put though a FWD car is about 220ish, my mate over in Norway has over 500bhp running in his Mazda 323F and thats front wheel drive, but hes used a boost controler to actualy drive it lol