Mazda Rotary Club

a QUESTION if i may,

i was all ready to book the RX in for a possible dyno read out to prove the power output, when i spoke to a cosworth specialist who regards the dyno\'s as very hard going on the engine?

Haas anyone on here had problems after a dyno read out? dont wanna ruin the car just for the sake of facts / figures

Let me know about your experiences, thanks

been on dynos before and dont know anyone that has had problems caused by the dyno, The dyno finds the fault normally not create it although it is poss if the engine is weak or mapping is crap then yes a dyno could do harm but no more than good blat down rd. Dyno lasts only 10-15 secs. If ya car take that then it has problems.

Do it! :bandit

I\'d say do it too bud. I took mine on and found the sod had been detuned lol there I was thinking I was hot stuff lol

def do it, gives you piece of mind too if everythings running fine..

I\'d use the dynapack at Thor though, gives ya a hub reading or Gforce are pretty cool

yeah shouldn\'t worry the decent ones like Nobles ;) will monitor the most essential info & you can tell them how you want the car run etc if you so desire..... Nowt 100% but hey nothing in life is. Let me know if you fancy it i may tag along since i haven\'t been able to run mine as yet.....
Si

hmm sure there\'s a mobile hub type place based in Cov as well, u want me to ask those who will no?
Si

How did you find it had been detuned Andy and how does that effect the motor now. I ask as i think mine may have been as well.
 Cheers Jay...:wave

QuoteOriginally posted by scooby_si
hmm sure there\'s a mobile hub type place based in Cov as well, u want me to ask those who will no?
Si

Tell ya wot Si we\'ll discuss it on sunday if you\'re coming down, when you get your car sorted we\'ll go down and get both done, wot you think?:)

If poss go some where with either a Dyno Dynamics or Dynapak setup; most HP numbers about atm are from these two set ups so are best for comparison.

Out of interest, talking to Guy at CPL the other day he had a GTS or GTST go on back to back runs on DD and DP setups recently, vary a bit unsurprisingly so you can see how setups vary on output. Just ask Robbie!

As Gary says a dyno is likely to diagnose any problems  you might have. I thought my car was running fine until I took it to a dyno and found I had a boost problem.

Just make sure you take it to a reputable place that has decent monitoring and nice big fan to provide plenty of cooling etc when you do the run.

I\'ve got some videos of mine and Si Cook\'s FDs on the rollers if you want to have a look. Again as Gary says the run is only about 15-30 seconds or so  (usually in 4th gear) so probably much less worse than a good thrashing on the road.

They should be monitoring your car and in the unlikely event of any problems, will abort the run.

besides mate no one will believe your 460bhp claims until you get your dyno print outs done :p :p :p

So what does the actual 15-40 secs involve?

Never been before you see:confused:

if you wanna see some videos, drop me a PM or email and i\'ll set you up access to a server you can download them from.

You\'ll need broadband though as they are pretty big I\'m afraid!!

Basically, they get the car moving on the rollers, slot it into 4th and take it right up through the rev range. This gives you your dyno plot (power vs. engine speed) and subsequently, peak power at wheels figure. They then let the car coast down which allows them to calculate the transmission loss and hence give you a power at flywheel.

Some dynos will give you a torque figure as well as BHP on the plot.  If not, it is simple enough calculate it.

yeah cool i dont mind making you look good lol
Si

it is as simple as already said wind her up no where near red line, prob 6500 poss 7000 revs and let go of gas takes secs, They will repeat it prob 6 times and might even tweek her for you to make her run better and safer, a track day will see those figures for 20-30 mins at a time. Go on ya big wooz LOL:p

My car has probably had more RR days than any other FD and has yet to have any side effects to show for it (other than an ever increasing stack of graphs :o )  If your car is setup properly it should be no worse for it than a normal 4th gear acceleration run in the real world.  If it is not setup correctly it is better to find out sooner than later.

If you want to take your car up here to my normal rollers I\'ll pay for your run and fuel if it makes over 450bhp :D

As the big man says really, they\'ll wind her up slowly into 3rd or 4th then nail her up just past peak power, as soon as the curve flattens out they\'ll let off, repeat cycle and yer done. Print graphs, head off to pub to see Danny the fish ;)

A dyno is the safest way of checking out the health of your engine, make sure you have good plugs, clean oil and your coolant is ok, take it to a GOOD dyno as 20bboy says dyno pack or dyno dynamics are the better ones, make sure that the garage are FD frendly and they understand the fueling on them [they run somewhat richer than yer boingers!].
Dyno pack will give you your actual RWHP, Dyno dynamics will give you the real figures -allowing for loss of traction through wheelspin ect.
I have had 2 mappin sessions [1/2 day or so] and 2 power runs [just to proove the figures] without any problems - trouble is it makes you hungry for more power:D
Get it on there if only to keep the rabble quiet and it would be good to have some PROVEN 400+ cars at meetings and not pub talk figures:bandit
John

The kindest way to run on a dyno is the Dyno Hub like what Abbey have.It is very accurate on repeat runs and much kinder on the car than rolling road dynos.
Also it is possible to work out the flywheel figure and Hub figure for power output.
Having worked on both types of Dyno my choice would always be the dyno hub for kindness and repeatability of runs within one or two hp.This is more important when you are tuning than just getting a power run.
Kind regards
Carl

Ask John about consistency of runs on the Dyno Dynamics!

Yep as Rich A says 4 runs last Tuesday and the last 2 at my mappin session all within .2hp. :cool
I think if you are after just a power run either dyno will do......As far as tuning goes you have to rely on your chosen tuner.
Just my .2hp\'s worth
Regards John [316RWHP + a happy bunnie!]:wave

I imagine the dynapak is very accurate and repeatable. But the Dyno Dynamics RR are also very well respected around the world.

I personally would prefer power runs done on rollers as you\'re reading from the treads, for tuning I dont really think it matters that much from the little I\'ve seen, both I\'m sure are more than adequate at loading up the car as required - and as John says the DD certainly appears to be accurate at Guy\'s shop at least.

I\'m sure Danny has some thing to say now ;-) Whats was that Danny? a pint of stella and a packet of Big D\'s? Nothing wrong with pub talk! :D

IMHO comparing dyno figures from two different dynos is a complete and utter waste of time.  Even weather and time of year can affect the results.

It is nice to compare results with other cars at the same session, but that\'s really as far as it goes.

Dynos are reallty useful for tuning your car and trying to identify faults, however if you want to keep a historic track of your car\'s output , you have to use the same place for each run.

Robertio - careful kid i\'m looking for well over 400bhp so if i did decide to come up there you might have to pay!!;)

Seriously though it sounds as though its not too tough on the car taking it to a dyno session, i\'ll wait until Scoobi Si gets his rx sorted then we\'ll go down and see what happens, couple of weeks or so i reckon so keep em peeled.

I guess its all elementary now as the Japvillage car is on the streets?:mad:  and not too far from me:(

Well sort of:wave

QuoteOriginally posted by GaryS
IMHO comparing dyno figures from two different dynos is a complete and utter waste of time.  Even weather and time of year can affect the results.

A decent setup should baseline results to a certain temperature and air pressure (or be capable of it).  Obviously in high-pressure cold weather there\'ll be more power then low pressure warm weather.

Plus at the wheels HP figures should be comparable between dynos assuming there\'s not a huge amount of wheel slip on the rollers (for a rr dyno).  HP at the hubs will be higher than rollers as there\'s a large amount of power lost in the tyres.  Fly wheel will be largest but without using an engine dyne fly wheel hp is guesswork.

So comparing HP on different types of dyno (engine, hub, wheel) is pointless comparisons between the same type of dyno should be within a few %.

Iain

uh oh am i guna get blamed for you not being able to back up yer talk now (http://www.click-smilies.de/sammlung0903/mittelgrosse/medium-smiley-021.gif) lol
Si (rollin rollin rollin keep them erm wheels rolling....(http://www.click-smilies.de/sammlung0903/mittelgrosse/medium-smiley-131.gif))

SI ,

i think the weathers gonna be ok for sunday so i\'ll take yer out for a blast see what you think?

I\'ve got it on good info that its gonna be over 400bhp easy so we shall see, if not may look for a more powerful one!!!

The RX

Just ou tof interest what is the spec on your FD?
 Cheers Jay...:wave

Jay,

i presume you\'re talking to me?

Not sure of the full spec but i have a bridgeported engine running a T78 turbo with internal boost controller and a huge front mount intercooler with limited slip diff, can\'t tell you the tech stuff as i dont know:confused: :rollin

Rear tyres are 265\'s so hopefully lots of grip???

Heres a pic of the engine bay:

QuoteOriginally posted by gsb876
Robertio - careful kid i\'m looking for well over 400bhp so if i did decide to come up there you might have to pay!!;)

There\'s 450bhp and there\'s 450bhp on a Maha rolling road - running a similar setup to Johns 316rwhp (approx 380fly) I made 279fly.  Until I run my car at G-Force we wont know the exact correlation between them, but the other rollers I used up here read about 40rwhp higher.  
To the best of my knowledge no FD has made over 300bhp on a Maha setup in Europe.

All the best :)

"maha rolling road"

Not sure what that is dude? but you seen the pink jap village rx? possibly running close to 900bhp!!! i reckon that would get over 300bhp on the "maha rolling road thingy".

What is that btw?:confused:

QuoteOriginally posted by gsb876

Not sure what that is dude? but you seen the pink jap village rx? possibly running close to 900bhp!!! i reckon that would get over 300bhp on the "maha rolling road thingy".

I think the 900bhp claims for the pink beasty were when it was running NOS too. I don\'t think there are any official dyno figures for it since last rebuild either. I guess since it\'s proud new owner has recently joined our ranks we\'ll get to know how close to 900 bhp it really is sometime!


:eek:

Yea good point i did read somewhere about the NOS unsure if its still on though?

There are a few FDs around that should make over 300bhp, but until now I have not heard of any, for some reason people like taking their cars to places that give high figures ;)  A few years back scoob owners started taking their cars to Power Engineering as it gave higher figures than Powerstation, having looked around it seems G-Force\'s setup reads higher again (possibly the same sort of figures as Well Lane?).

I\'m not going to guess what the pink panther will make, but I\'d be amazed if it does make anywhere near its claimed output (no offense to the new owner intended).

As has been mentioned previously in this thread - different places use different rolling road setups.  Maha is the one used by Star (up here) and Powerstation (Cheltenham) and is not known for giving high figures.

Hi Robbie

I would like to refer you to the FDUK rolling road day last year [Feb 15th] where G Force\'s Dyno Dynamics was set up using 2 stock 2000 FD\'s both returned \'stock\' figures [212rwhp] Have a look in May 02 Banzi Mag.
These values were applied to CPL\'s Dyno Dynamics machine for my mapping and power runs which were conducted the same time of the year in similar weather conditions.
I would say my rusults reflect a faily accurate power figure and suggest you inqure at your Maha rolling road what values they are setting thier machine up with.
Regards
John

Whilst I agree with much of your comments Iain/Rich/John,I would have to say that the Dyno Hub is very accurate and kind on the car because of no wheel slip,which as anyone who has dynoed a big HP engine will find,the car can jump about and when you get up the revs it can vary the readings,John\'s car is not really high enough in power for this to happen.Wheelslip comes into play too and tyre wear!The dyno hub has none of this.It is the next best thing to an engine dyno in my opinion,having used both systems.

The power loss to the tyre interface is limited until you get wheel slip(At big hp),so the figure on the rollers will be close to the dyno hub.It is only powertrain losses that really are the difference between rollers/Hub and engine dyno.
Also when you come off the throttle the rollers have alot of momentum in them but the dyno hub does not so it is kinder to the drivetrain.

Since an engine dyno does not fully replicate all of the systems/ancillaries that are running in each car completely accurately,I don\'t think for road cars the owners  are prpared to pay the  high costs involved at this time,nor is it worth it.
No 2 rolling roads will read exactly the same even if the same make,they are only a tool to use to establish that the most HP for the setup is running ok with the tine that has been done.That is not to say they may not be close,but remember that like any tool the wear,the operator(Who has a certain amount of control),and climate can all change the figures.

Even the engine dyno will vary from place to place in HP/Torque figures.

Hope this helps.
Kind regards
Carl

Your absolutely right Carl, hub types are the way to go :)

but....

To my mind, when FDUK did the G-Force shootout last year, the fact that it was performed on a dyno dynamics tester has kind of set the standard, simply because more FD\'s have figures on this make of tester than any other.

As far as I know, there are two Dyno dynamics equipped centres in Southern England - G Force in Aylesbury and CPL Racing in Sheerness.

The doubters will always have their say if a particular FD performs well on a particular type of dyno.

Do a hub type test and these doubters will say "but it would be less hp on a blah blah blah roller type tester".

The common ground to me is the Dyno Dynamics kit - you may argue that it\'s not the best, but it has that common ground for comparison purposes.

If your not into the mentality of \'mine is better than yours\', then it\'s not an issue!

Regards

Max

Hi Max,
I am not averse to a car that has been tuned on the hub system going to G force after for a power run,as will be soon seen.
That should make for a fair comparison.
Kind regards
Carl

I could always do the reverse:bandit

QuoteOriginally posted by gsb876
Robertio - careful kid i\'m looking for well over 400bhp so if i did decide to come up there you might have to pay!!;)

I feel this is a safe bet for us at STAR...... you are welcome to cry on our sholders. Like most things scottish...they are hard;)

QuoteLike most things scottish...they are hard

:rollin :rollin :rollin

Isnt there a game of some thing on tomorrow?

QuoteOriginally posted by John Yorke
Hi Robbie

I would like to refer you to the FDUK rolling road day last year [Feb 15th] where G Force\'s Dyno Dynamics was set up using 2 stock 2000 FD\'s both returned \'stock\' figures [212rwhp] Have a look in May 02 Banzi Mag.
These values were applied to CPL\'s Dyno Dynamics machine for my mapping and power runs which were conducted the same time of the year in similar weather conditions.
I would say my rusults reflect a faily accurate power figure and suggest you inqure at your Maha rolling road what values they are setting thier machine up with.
Regards
John

Not saying there is anything wrong with G-Force, etc just that according to people on other forums their rollers do read higher than other places.  We\'ll find out when I\'m down for the FDUK day in April :)

The US FD guys are sure that what they do gives the right figures as well, yet these are about 10% higher than what the other main type of dyno over there records.  And if you compare their figures to those attained in the UK for cars running similar specs there is a huge difference.

The Maha setup is calibrated (IIRC) quarterly by an engineer who comes up and tests them, never been there when this has been done so can\'t say what is involved.  Many cars that are running properly do make stock (UK quoted) figures on them - my scoob made 218.5 when manufacturers claim 218, and most stock scoobs are within a handful of manufacturers figures, as are Evos, Supras.  I was there when Keith Cowies old Skyline made well over 500, and Marcs not setup GTS made over 340 when we were there last time to prove that if the car is making big power, it will be possible to get the numbers on the rollers.  Most (but not all) Jap imports seem to be 10 or so bhp down on claimed figures, which IMHO ties in with the lower quality of fuel used over here.
I did try my hardest to get a good collection of FDs up at the last RR day to get figures for standard cars, but despite my best attempts only 3 FDs made it and the other pair had problems so couldn\'t produce accurate figures.

I think the most popular over there is the Dynajet isnt it? Dynamics is meant to be a lot more \'conservative\' than \'jet...

QuoteOriginally posted by Robertio
Not saying there is anything wrong with G-Force, etc just that according to people on other forums their rollers do read higher than other places.  We\'ll find out when I\'m down for the FDUK day in April :)

You get this with evry big test though.

The only thing I could say about G-force being better than PE is that at the latter place you need people to sit in your boot for traction.

As I said earlier, dyno figures can not be compared between two different test centres.  If you use one for tuning, stick to it (as long as you trust the place).  If you want to compare cars, they all must be dynoed at the same time at the same place.

either way i can confirm gsb876\'s mota is respectably quick (http://www.freeadpower.org/~mrsmiles/contrib/tweetz/scared.gif) lol
Si

The Pink Panther doesn\'t have the NOS anymore, but it is going to be refitted at some point. Just trying to get the traction control off Tim first, so that it can put down the power that it already has.

Dyno test will be done when I get chance (after Pip has finished with it);)

did you tell Pip i could have the keys while he works on mine yet? (http://instagiber.net/smiliesdotcom/otn/happy/11zwinky.gif)
Si (deluding himself! lol)

I didn\'t think Pip would be there on a Sunday, otherwise I would have called just to tell him that, on no account whatsoever, not even when hell freezes over, should he give you the keys :evillaugh

Even my brother hasn\'t convinced me to let him drive it yet :p

i\'ll make sure i get there early on Monday then before you can tell him no :p lol
Si (still fantasising! ;) lol)

Maybe I should leave a message on his answerphone? ;)

ok now do you have a scottish accent or anything i should know about b4 i leave the message? pmsl
Si

:rollin

I Wouldn\'t worry about borrowing the car,as I have Pip\'s home number I rang him today and borrowed it myself,I must say that I was a little dissapointed,it would not go faster than 215mph!I think it needs a tweek.
Kind regards
Carl
:p

So do I get nitrous to get the extra 5mph or do I just change the bumper sticker?

:confused:

Look on the bright side, it\'ll keep all the daft boyracers off your ass:rolleyes:

Thats one thing that bothers me, dumb ass jokers trying to shove their 1.4I cars up your backend, muppets!!!:reallymad

Waste of the petrol to bother with em:o

Yep I know what you mean - and why do they always have a Max Power sticker in the window?

I try to take it as a compliment when they shove the car right up to the bumper at the lights - I figure that they are just trying to get a closer look.

I still tend to put my foot down - just to show them what a REAL performance car is like. :D

As they say - if you want to make a car that goes really fast, start with a fast car.:)

I guess you could take it as a compliment, but i\'ve got to the stage now where i try and see how slow i can go b4 they try and overtake you? so far managed personal best of 18mph on a 40mph road!!!:rollin :rollin :rollin

lol, i like that game too:D

For a variation on this game...

In stop-start traffic try to ease the driving strain by averaging the speed out.  This means a gap will open up in front of you as you pootle at 10 mph.  Wait for the impatient tw@ behind you to try to leap-frog you.  Boot it.  Leave him stuck on the other side of the road in the face of oncoming traffic.

Top fun! :cool

Iain

I do that anyway - just so that I don\'t have to try and pull off from a stand-still with that twin-plate clutch :)

Kids eh?   Im glad im 21 and no longer associated with such childish behaviour :rolleyes:

QuoteOriginally posted by Roundabout-Now
I do that anyway - just so that I don\'t have to try and pull off from a stand-still with that twin-plate clutch :)

Diddo mate, still not got used to mine yet, not stalling anymore but still not great at pulling off!!!

QuoteOriginally posted by MintyFresh
Kids eh?   Im glad im 21 and no longer associated with such childish behaviour :rolleyes:

Thankfully, at 33, I still haven\'t outgrown this loutish and foolish behaviour.

Maybe they\'re not being impatient but are sick of being gassed by the FDs rich emissions?

Iain

But mines got that nice 2-stroke smell :p

didnt when i was stood behind it but well it was turned off & 8" in the air ;)
Looks interesting at least even thou i didnt get a listen or a play (http://www.stupid-boy.com/smilies/cwm/3dlil/ugh.gif)
Si

From what Pip said there wasn\'t a radiator in at the moment either.

Did it look like it\'ll be ready for the weekend?

8" in the air? So he got the hover mode working again! Tim told me about that in the same sentence that he told me it makes 900hp. See - it was all true.

Now I just need to get the flux capacitor working. :p

Does anyone produce a stainless steel bonnet - I might need the extra cooling.;)

QuoteOriginally posted by Roundabout-Now
But mines got that nice 2-stroke smell :p

*lol*

Mine was pretty evil to be behind before xmas - engine on way out burning coolant.  Made your eyes water it did!

pmsl you know what i mean & er couldn\'t possibly comment on what state of rediness it would be in by the weekend as primarily i dunno booger all at the best of times (http://www.stopstart.freeserve.co.uk/smilie/dork.gif) let alone when it\'s all way over my head (both in terms of the magic hovering car & the silly big engine you got :p lol)
But i\'m sure it\'ll be worth the wait although have you got the bank manager on standby? lol
Si

Speaking as an essex boy and someone who used to (a long time ago!) buy alot of max powers.

i think your getting the \'up your @ss\' thing all wrong.  

if i see a quick car i\'m not familiar with the performance of, i\'ll get as close as i can hoping they\'ll want to show me up and floor it. surley you do the same if you see a ferrari etc...? obviously realise i\'m not gonna beat a 911 in my 90bhp saxo but want to see just how \'done\' i get....

Think of it as a food chain ---> the 1.1\'s annoy me, i annoy 2.0L\'s and upwards and they annoy the 1.3\'s...hang on a minute.....

:D

Speaking as an essex boy and someone who used to (a long time ago!) buy alot of max powers.

i think your getting the \'up your @ss\' thing all wrong.  

if i see a quick car i\'m not familiar with the performance of, i\'ll get as close as i can hoping they\'ll want to show me up and floor it. surley you do the same if you see a ferrari etc...? obviously realise i\'m not gonna beat a 911 in my 90bhp saxo but want to see just how \'done\' i get....

Think of it as a food chain ---> the 1.1\'s annoy me, i annoy 2.0L\'s and upwards and they annoy the 1.3\'s...hang on a minute.....

:D

QuoteOriginally posted by Robertio
To the best of my knowledge no FD has made over 300bhp on a Maha setup in Europe.

I have a printout at 284fly hp. But that was on old plugs with 2.25" exhaust with crush bent piping before the catback, stock IC and old plug wires.

Since then I installed 3" midpipe, 3" catback, new plug wires and PFS stock mount IC. As the weather clears I will be going back to the MAHA dyno with hopefully over 300bhp printout.

So that would actually mean my car is running just fine ? :p